THE AMAZING GIFT OF THE PRIESTHOOD

Catholic Dossier ^ | 1998 | Father Kenneth Baker, S.J.

[markomalley]

THE AMAZING GIFT OF THE PRIESTHOOD

by Fr. Kenneth Baker, S.J.

Dr. McInerny asked me to write an essay on the priesthood for this special issue of Dossier. After reflecting on the matter for a few days, it occurred to me that I have written many columns in the Homiletic & Pastoral Review on this topic. Going back over the index I found more than a dozen short editorials that are very much to the point. I have selected five of them and decided to present them to you in this issue. These short reflections offer a good summary of my views on the priesthood and cover a period of about fifteen years.

Why Are Catholic Priests Called “Priests”?

For many years I have been intrigued by the different titles given to their clergy by the various religious bodies. Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, and perhaps a few others, give the title of “priest” to their clergy. Most Protestants refer to their clergy as “Minister” or “Reverend” or “Pastor” or simply “Mr.” The basic reason for the difference in titles is the difference in theology.

By definition a priest is one who offers sacrifice. The Catholic Church teaches that the Mass is a sacrifice; it is, in a mystical sense, a re-presentation of the identical sacrifice that Jesus made of himself on the altar of the Cross on Calvary almost 2000 years ago. So because the Catholic priest, in celebrating the Eucharist (= Mass, Liturgy) acts in the person of Christ, and in a mysterious way offers once again the unique sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross, he is called a “priest.” The Latin word for this is sacerdos (sacra + dans), i.e., one who gives or brings holy things to the People of God.

Jesus Christ is our eternal priest according to the order of Melchisedek. As St. Thomas Aquinas says, the proper task of the priest consists in being a mediator between God and men (S. Th. III, 22, 1). And St. Paul instructs us in 1 Tim. 2:5 that Jesus is the one Mediator between God and men. Because Jesus is both God and man by reason of the Hypostatic Union, he is able to reconcile God and man in his own Person. That is what he did by his death on the Cross.

The Catholic faith teaches that the priest is another Christ, an alter Christus; he takes on this sublime dignity by receiving the Sacrament of Holy Orders. The most essential function of the sacerdotal or priestly office is sacrifice. For we read in Hebrews 8:3, “Every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices.”

It is for this reason, therefore, that the Catholic Church (and others also) calls its clergy “priests.” Most Protestants avoid the title because they do not believe that what they call “the Lord’s Supper” is a sacrifice.

In the broadest sense, a sacrifice is the surrender of one good for something else that is better. Thus athletes make many personal sacrifices in order to excel. In the liturgical sense, a sacrifice is an external religious act in which some sensible gift is offered to God by an ordained servant of God in recognition of his absolute majesty and in atonement for sins. Theologians identify four elements here: 1) a visible sacrificial gift, 2) a sacrificing priest, 3) the purpose of the sacrifice (e.g., glorifying God), and 4) an act of sacrifice which removes the gift from man’s dominion to God’s, and represents the interior sacrificial disposition.

The four elements are verified in Jesus’ sacrifice on the Cross. In that unique case, however, the victim and the priest are the same. At Mass in a mystical way the priest re-presents that same sacrifice to the Father, for he says “This is my body....”

I offer this very brief summary of the Church’s teaching on sacrifice, Calvary and the Mass because so many, many Catholics, poorly instructed, simply do not understand what is going on when they attend the Sunday Liturgy. That may also explain why they do not understand the difference between “priest” and “minister.” The Catholic priest is also a minister, but he is first and foremost a priest because he has been empowered by Christ to offer the sacrifice of the Mass for the salvation of all.

The Faith of the Priest

There are some strange things being done in the administration of the Sacraments, and especially in offering Mass. A subscriber who put her eight children through her parish school eventually came to the conclusion that she could no longer attend Mass in her own parish because she doubted the validity of the Masses being offered there.

A Mass can be invalid for a number of reasons (we presuppose that the priest has been validly ordained): 1) because of a defect in the matter, for example, using sweet rolls instead of bread made only from wheat flour and water; 2) because of a defect in the form, for example, changing the words “This is my body” or “This is the cup of my blood” into something else; 3) because the priest positively excludes the intention to do what the Church does in offering Mass.

Donatism was a heresy in the 4th and 5th centuries, especially in North Africa, which caused great harm to the Church. The Donatists believed that the validity of the Sacraments depends on the sanctity or worthiness of the minister; if he was in the state of mortal sin for any reason, then all Sacraments administered by him, including Baptism, were said to be invalid. This opinion was condemned by various Popes and Synods, and it was vigorously opposed by St. Augustine. The Donatists were in error because the principal agent in the Sacraments is Christ himself who operates through the priest as the instrumental cause; by reason of his ordination the priest has the “priestly character” indelibly imprinted on his soul, like the character imprinted by Baptism. By the will of God Christ works through the validly ordained priest, even if he is a sinner. If that were not so, then the faithful would never know for sure whether or not they had really received a Sacrament.

Most Catholics seem to know that mortal sin on the soul of the priest does not render the Sacraments he administers invalid. But it may come as a surprise to many Catholics that the validity of the Sacraments, let us say the Mass, also does not depend essentially on the faith of the priest who offers the Mass. Thus, Masses offered by heretical priests, by schismatics, by Catholic priests who are plagued by doubts or who have false ideas about the Real Presence or transubstantiation, can be and probably usually are valid Masses. They must of course use the correct words of consecration, use wheat bread and wine made from grapes, and have the intention of doing what the Church does in offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (Latin: intentio faciendi quod facit ecclesia). The priest does not have to agree with what the Church does, or understand it perfectly, or have it explicitly in mind while he is offering Mass. If in some general or vague way he intends to do what the Church does in the Mass (and in the other Sacraments also), then the Mass is certainly valid.

The Church’s teaching on the validity of the Sacraments is very important today, since there is so much confusion among Catholics about Catholic doctrine, coming mainly from faulty catechetics, distortions in the media, and the errors of dissenting theologians. Our people should know that, just because a priest preaches heresy from the pulpit or ad libs at Mass (provided that he uses the correct form of consecration and valid matter), it does not necessarily mean that the Mass is invalid. It would be invalid if he did not have the intention of doing what the Church does, that is, if he positively excluded that. Such a supposition should not be made if he basically follows the rites of the Church. If, however, he should ridicule the Mass and use invalid matter, or make up his own formula of consecration, that would be a clear sign that the Mass is invalid.

Priests are weak human instruments of Christ. Let us thank him and marvel at his wisdom that he did not make his Sacraments wholly dependent on the holiness and faith of his ministers.

Priests, Prayer and Preaching

One of the main tasks of the priest is preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He is ordained not only to administer the Sacraments, but also to proclaim the Good News of Salvation.

Training for the priesthood normally includes four years of college, often with a major in philosophy, although there has been a decline recently and regrettably in the study of philosophy. This is followed by four years’ study of theology, which includes dogma, moral theology, canon law, liturgy, history of the Church, Homiletics, Fathers of the Church, and so forth. When a candidate has successfully completed this course he is recommended to the bishop for ordination and finally ordained a priest of Jesus Christ “according to the line of Melchisedek.”

Everything that the priest is— his personal experiences, his studies, the books he has read— literally everything goes into his preaching. The more he knows and the better prepared he is, the better a preacher he will make. And his preaching is extremely important, especially now that there is so much emphasis on the liturgy of the Word. The point I want to make here is that the key to effective preaching is the personal prayer of the priest. Of course, he must be well trained in theology, he must study Holy Scripture, he must know the rudiments of public speaking, and he must diligently prepare each homily as if it were the only one he would ever give. These are the necessary presuppositions in the preacher of the Gospel. But one essential element is still lacking. That is prayer.

We must not forget that the priest enters the pulpit not to give expression to his own opinions on this or that, but to speak the Word of God. God uses him as an instrument to bring his saving Word to sinners and saints alike.

Preaching well is difficult. It takes a lot of work—and a lot of prayer. The preacher may not dispense with study and preparation, but if he leaves it there and does not go to the Lord in prayer for help and inspiration his words will not make much of an impression on his listeners. By personal prayer and intimate conversation with the Lord the priest comes to a relish and understanding of the Faith that cannot be acquired from books and summer institutes.

The Church, in her wisdom, is very concerned that her priests be men of prayer. During their seminary days priests are taught to spend a period each day in mental prayer; they make annual retreats; they are urged to pray the rosary daily and they are introduced to the Liturgy of the Hours. According to the new Code of Canon Law, priests have a duty to strive for holiness.

“Clerics have a special obligation to seek holiness in their lives, because they are consecrated to God by a new title through the reception of orders, and are stewards of the mysteries of God in the service of His people” (c. 276, #1).

This spiritual program is directly related to the priest’s preaching. It is difficult to preach the Good News convincingly. To preach in a way that touches the hearers’ hearts, the priest must be thoroughly convinced himself of the truth and urgency of what he is saying. In other words, he must have something important to say and he must say it with conviction and enthusiasm. Where will he get that? Primarily from prayer.

The praying priest will be a good preacher. He might not be a Winston Churchill or a Ronald Reagan or a Fr. George Rutler, but he will touch the hearts of the faithful. St. John Vianney, the famous Cure of Ars, was no Demosthenes or Bourdalou but, in his humble sincerity, he was still a powerful preacher. His sanctity gave a power to his words that cannot be substituted for by study and rhetorical skill.

Agent of Christ

One day as I was walking up the side aisle of St. Patrick’s Cathedral in New York a woman stopped me and said, “Thank you for being a priest.” Then she walked on without another word. That brief encounter made a deep impression on me. It brought home to me vividly how important the priesthood is to the Church and the world. In fact, without the priesthood there would be no Church.

Ordinary Catholic laymen become priests through the laying on of the hands of the bishop and receiving the Sacrament of Holy Orders. One becomes a priest through the power of Jesus Christ operating through the normal channels of his Church. Orders produce an ontological or real change in the one ordained. Once consecrated he is no longer a lay person and he is no longer exactly like non-priests. He has received a charism that consecrates him to continuing Christ’s prophetic and sacramental ministry.

Jesus is a priest by nature; he was born a priest and he died a priest. For, from the first moment of his conception he offered himself to the Father as a propitiation for our sins and he is our only Mediator with the Father (1 Tim. 2:5). When he instituted orders at the Last Supper he provided that the work of his Incarnation should be continued in history by his apostles and their successors—the bishops and priests installed by them to carry on his mission. So the priest is configured to Christ in a unique way to proclaim the word and to administer the Sacraments, not for his own profit and glory, but for the good of the whole flock of Christ.

The priest of Jesus Christ makes Him, in a certain way, visible and tangible in this passing world. Through the sacramental words of consecration and forgiveness, which only he can utter efficaciously, the grace of Jesus is planted in time and space in a tangible way. St. Paul says he is an ambassador for Christ; in his preaching he is his messenger; in providing for the people Gospel and Sacrament he is also an agent of Christ.

Even if a priest is unworthy of his calling, his sacramental acts are valid and communicate grace; this occurs, not because of him, but in spite of him and in virtue of the grace of Christ in the Church.

The holy priest is one who has identified himself with Christ according to the measure of the grace granted to him. The Church expects her priests to be holy. To be effective, to be convincing, to be agents of conversion, the priest must integrate his priesthood with his personal life. This is not just a counsel; it is a duty that flows from the nature of the priesthood of Jesus Christ. So even if the priest is not a vowed religious, he must still follow the evangelical counsels in the way proper to diocesan priests. We see a striking example of this in the life of the Cure of Ars who is now the patron of priests.

Priesthood is not just a 9 to 5 job; it is not just a function that some men perform for the good of the Church. It is a total way of life. Since he is commissioned to continue the salvific work of Jesus in word and sacrament, the sacrifice of his sexual love in celibacy is not just a practical arrangement. His renunciation of wife and children is basically a clear sign to the world that God has planted in him something that transcends all earthly values, namely, his own divine life as the life of the new and eternal kingdom. The woman who greeted me in St. Patrick’s Cathedral was probably not thinking along these lines, but it was implied in the reverent gratitude she showed for the precious gift I carry with me wherever I go—the priesthood of Jesus Christ.

The Amazing Gift of the Priesthood

As year is added to year, it is my guess that most priests become more deeply aware of the unfathomable treasure they posses in the amazing grace of the priesthood. Simply stated, the Catholic priest is another Christ. Through his ordination he has been granted the amazing gift of being a channel of divine grace for the eternal salvation of those he come into contact with—both in his official ministry and in his personal life.

We priests all know this, through our study of theology, in a theoretical or abstract way. By prayer, service, sacrifice and perseverance in spite of all obstacles we gradually come to savor it more profoundly in our inner consciousness as we grow older. No doubt, the whole process is guided by the outpouring of divine grace—especially the grace that comes to us through our intimate association with God’s Word and his Seven Sacraments.

Because of his close association with Jesus Christ, with his Word and his Sacraments, there should be no such thing as an “identity crisis” for the Catholic priest. Recently while reading an article on this subject by Fr. Cormac P. Burke, an Irish priest now working in Rome, I came across the following: “A priest then should not only be convinced of his priestly usefulness, he should be convinced it is unique—because our Lord has made it unique. He should not only be aware of his identity, he should be proud of it, and indeed amazed at it. For his real identity is nothing less in fact than amazing” (emphasis added).

The celibate Catholic priest is a visible witness to the transcendence of God, to the fact that Catholics really believe in personal survival after death and eternal reward or punishment. He is a witness to transcendence both in what he is and what he does. Writing about the priest, some years ago Cardinal Joseph Hoeffner of Cologne, Germany, said that our people “want a servant of Christ who is a witness and dispenser of a life other than that of this earth.” “The priest in the modern world,” he added, “is an extraordinary challenge because he does not announce himself but our Lord Jesus Christ, judge and savior of humanity.”

The priest is an alter Christus, another Christ. Msgr. Josemaria Escriva put it this way: “What is the identity of the priest? It is the identity of Christ himself.” The priest is “set apart,” not to be distant, but to be totally dedicated to the Lord’s work (Vat. II, Decrees on Priests, #3). Msgr. Escriva also wisely said that the priest is not more a Christian than the layperson, but he is more a priest.

In the same vein, Pope John Paul II summarized the meaning of the priesthood in his 1979 Holy Thursday Letter to Priests: “In practical terms, the only priest who will always prove necessary to people is the priest who is conscious of the full meaning of his priesthood: the priest who believes profoundly, who professes his faith with courage, who prays fervently, who teaches with deep conviction, who serves, who puts into practice in his own life the program of the beatitudes, who knows how to love disinterestedly, who is close to everyone, and especially to those who are most in need” (#7).

Priests who strive to live their priesthood in that way will never have an identity crisis, but they will be continually amazed at their gift of the priesthood.

[markomalley]

A tremendous resource for understanding the sacramental nature of the priestood is Pope Pius XI's encyclical letter, Ad Catholici Sacerdotii.

12. The Apostle of the Gentiles thus perfectly sums up what may be said of the greatness, the dignity and the duty of the Christian priesthood: Sic nos existimet homo Ut ministros Christi et dispensatores mysteriorum Dei--"Let a man so account of us as of the ministers of Christ and the dispensers of the mysteries of God." The priest is the minister of Christ, an instrument, that is to say, in the hands of the Divine Redeemer. He continues the work of the redemption in all its world-embracing universality and divine efficacy, that work that wrought so marvelous a transformation in the world. Thus the priest, as is said with good reason, is indeed "another Christ"; for, in some way, he is himself a continuation of Christ. "As the Father hath sent Me, I also send you," is spoken to the priest, and hence the priest, like Christ, continues to give "glory to God in the highest and on earth peace to men of good will."

…

17. Besides this power over the real Body of Christ, the priest has received other powers, august and sublime, over His Mystical Body of Christ, a doctrine so dear to St. Paul; this beautiful doctrine that shows us the Person of the Word-made-Flesh in union with all His brethren. For from Him to them comes a supernatural influence, so that they, with Him as Head, form a single Body of which they are the members. Now a priest is the appointed "dispenser of the mysteries of God," for the benefit of the members of the mystical Body of Christ; since he is the ordinary minister of nearly all the Sacraments,--those channels through which the grace of the Savior flows for the good of humanity. The Christian, at almost every important stage of his mortal career, finds at his side the priest with power received from God, in the act of communicating or increasing that grace which is the supernatural life of his soul.

18. Scarcely is he born before the priest baptizing him, brings him by a new birth to a more noble and precious life, a supernatural life, and makes him a son of God and of the Church of Jesus Christ. To strengthen him to fight bravely in spiritual combats, a priest invested with special dignity makes him a soldier of Christ by holy chrism. Then, as soon as he is able to recognize and value the Bread of Angels, the priest gives It to him, the living and life-giving Food come down from Heaven. If he fall, the priest raises him up again in the name of God, and reconciles him to God with the Sacrament of Penance. Again, if he is called by God to found a family and to collaborate with Him in the transmission of human life throughout the world, thus increasing the number of the faithful on earth and, thereafter, the ranks of the elect in Heaven, the priest is there to bless his espousals and unblemished love; and when, finally, arrived at the portals of eternity, the Christian feels the need of strength and courage before presenting himself at the tribunal of the Divine Judge, the priest with the holy oils anoints the failing members of the sick or dying Christian, and reconsecrates and comforts him.

19. Thus the priest accompanies the Christian throughout the pilgrimage of this life to the gates of Heaven. He accompanies the body to its resting place in the grave with rites and prayers of immortal hope. And even beyond the threshold of eternity he follows the soul to aid it with Christian suffrages, if need there be of further purification and alleviation. Thus, from the cradle to the grave the priest is ever beside the faithful, a guide, a solace, a minister of salvation and dispenser of grace and blessing.

20. But among all these powers of the priest over the Mystical Body of Christ for the benefit of the faithful, there is one of which the simple mention made above will not content Us. This is that power which, as St. John Chrysostom says: "God gave neither to Angels nor Archangels"--the power to remit sins. "Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain they are retained"; a tremendous power, so peculiar to God that even human pride could not make the mind conceive that it could be given to man. "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" And, when we see it exercised by a mere man there is reason to ask ourselves, not, indeed, with pharisaical scandal, but with reverent surprise at such a dignity: "Who is this that forgiveth sins also?" But it is so: the God-Man who possessed the "power on earth to forgive sins" willed to hand it on to His priests; to relieve, in His divine generosity and mercy, the need of moral purification which is rooted in the human heart.

21. What a comfort to the guilty, when, stung with remorse and repenting of his sins, he hears the word of the priest who says to him in God's name: "I absolve thee from thy sins!" These words fall, it is true, from the lips of one who, in his turn, must needs beg the same absolution from another priest. This does not debase the merciful gift; but makes it, rather, appear greater; since beyond the weak creature is seen more clearly the hand of God through whose power is wrought this wonder. As an illustrious layman has written, treating with rare competence of spiritual things: ". . . when a priest, groaning in spirit at his own unworthiness and at the loftiness of his office, places his consecrated hands upon our heads; when, humiliated at finding himself the dispenser of the Blood of the Covenant; each time amazed as he pronounces the words that give life; when a sinner has absolved a sinner; we, who rise from our knees before him, feel we have done nothing debasing. . . We have been at the feet of a man who represented Jesus Christ, . . . we have been there to receive the dignity of free men and of sons of God."

22. These august powers are conferred upon the priest in a special Sacrament designed to this end: they are not merely passing or temporary in the priest, but are stable and perpetual, united as they are with the indelible character imprinted on his soul whereby he becomes "a priest forever"; whereby he becomes like unto Him in whose eternal priesthood he has been made a sharer. Even the most lamentable downfall, which, through human frailty, is possible to a priest, can never blot out from his soul the priestly character. But along with this character and these powers, the priest through the Sacrament of Orders receives new and special grace with special helps. Thereby, if only he will loyally further, by his free and personal cooperation, the divinely powerful action of the grace itself, he will be able worthily to fulfill all the duties, however arduous, of his lofty calling. He will not be overborne, but will be able to bear the tremendous responsibilities inherent to his priestly duty; responsibilities which have made fearful even the stoutest champions of the Christian priesthood, men like St. John Chrysostom, St. Ambose, St. Gregory the Great, St. Charles and many others.

…

30. A last tribute to the priesthood is given by the enemies of the Church. For as We have said on a previous page, they show that they fully appreciate the dignity and importance of the Catholic priesthood, by directing against it their first and fiercest blows; since they know well how close is the tie that binds the Church to her priests. The most rabid enemies of the Catholic priesthood are today the very enemies of God; a homage indeed to the priesthood, showing it the more worthy of honor and veneration.

The entire document is tremendous, but too long to post. I highly recommend it to all.

[buccaneer81]

As a former Catholic, I'll just say, "uh, no."

The Church is full of it. As a divorced man, they keep me from the sacraments and never speak out about child custody. To hell with them.

[Pyro7480]

Sancte Joseph, ora pro eo.

[buccaneer81]

His praying for me will not return my son. But thank you for your sentiments.

[Pyro7480]

You’re quite welcome. I have found him to be a powerful intercessor. We need all the prayers we can get.

[doc1019]

Praying directly to Jesus works great. Avoids all that intermediary stuff, and the time delay therein.

[Pyro7480]

Ah, don’t let this turn into a theological dispute. I can do that as easily as the other.

[doc1019]

No theological discussion needed … just statement of fact. I pray directly to Jesus, I don’t pray to any intermediary, is that wrong? Biblically speaking, should I not pray directly to GOD?

[Pyro7480]

Ha, you couldn't help it, could you? ;-)

Biblically speaking,

"And I saw: and behold in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the ancients, a Lamb standing as it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes: which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne. And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Apoc. 5: 6-8).

Scripture has creatures in Heaven offering the prayers of the faithful on earth.

[doc1019]

But not men! Or man, as it were. Are you saying that it is wrong to pray to Jesus directly?

[Pyro7480]

Are you saying that it is wrong to pray to Jesus directly?

No, as I said before, I can do that as easily as the other. What I am saying it's wrong to deny the intercessory prayer of the angels and the saints in Heaven.

[Ransomed]

doc, God created time. I know that you truly believe that praying to intercessors to help us through Him is worse than useless, and that you pray to God — which is great, Catholics, Orthodox, and Oriental Churches do that also. If praying to an intercessor to help us through the grace of God is flawed(or worse) the problem with it ain’t gonna be the lag time it takes the prayer to “catch up with God”.

Freegards

[Salvation]

Great thread!

[Salvation]

You are probably still a Catholic unless you filled out lots of paperwork and went to the diocese.

You can always come back to the church. All things can be reconciled. Many parishes have programs for returning Catholics; I believe we had 16 in our last Catholics Can Come Home Again class.

I’ll pray for you.

[Salvation]

**The Church is full of it. As a divorced man, they keep me from the sacraments and never speak out about child custody.**

Not true. Have you remarried? Someone who is divorced can still receive the Holy Eucharist unless they have remarried. Even if you have remarried you have recourse to seek an annulment and then have access to the Sacraments.

Find a priest you can sit down and talk with. You will be surprised. I have a feeling that you just got a priest who did not know much about annulments.

[pjr12345]

You are probably still a Catholic unless you filled out lots of paperwork and went to the diocese.

You're kidding, right?

[Salvation]

Father, Mother, Sister, Brother [Part One of a series on Celibacy] -- Catholic Caucus

It Takes a Village of Vocations [Part Two of a series on Celibacy] -- Catholic Caucus

Living Single and Celibate in God’s Service [Part Three of a series on Celibacy] -- Catholic Caucus

Brothers and Sisters in Christ [Part Four of a series on Celibacy] -- Catholic Caucus

The Adventure of the Priesthood [Part Five of a series on Celibacy] -- Catholic Caucus

This Is the Body of Christ [Part Six of a series on Celibacy and Vocations] -- Catholic Caucus

[William Terrell]

Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Matthew 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Matthew 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.

Matthew 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

According to our Lord Christ, this is how you pray.

[Uncle Chip]

The Catholic faith teaches that the priest is another Christ, an alter Christus

And for our scripture reading this Sunday morning, lets turn to Matthew 24:5 in which Jesus said:

"For many shall come in my name, saying 'I am Christ', and shall deceive many".

[Uncle Chip]

The Catholic priest is also a minister, but he is first and foremost a priest because he has been empowered by Christ to offer the sacrifice of the Mass for the salvation of all.

Chapter and verse, please???

[DragoonEnNoir]

Thank you for this very informative and well written summation of Catholic priesthood.

Being neither a Church historian nor clergy, I can only offer my own insights and difficulties with the office of priest, derived from reading of scripture.

You mention that 1Ti states that Jesus is the one Mediator between God and men. This is emphasized in Matthew 27:51 where the curtain of the temple is torn in two at Christ's death. His sacrifice there has removed the barrier between man and the Holy of Holies. Through Christ's sacrifice, we can each come before a Holy and rightious God, bringing Him our prayers and spiritual sacrifices. We have 'confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus' (Hebrews 10:19)

Writing to the church in Rome, the apostle Paul urges his brothers to offer their bodies as living sacrifices (Ro 12:1). In Hebrews 10, we are clearly told that traditional sacrifices are no longer needed for propriation of sin.... by one sacrifice God has forever done it.

In your article, to support sacrifices by the priesthood, you mention Hebrews 8:3, “Every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices.” Yet the context of this is not the priesthood, but the High Priest, and culminates in the point that the High Priestly sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. Christ has done it once and for all through His one perfect sacrifice. To say that the Catholic priesthood is 'another Christ' and say that we require their sacrifice would seem to go against what the word of God clearly tells us. He (Christ) has appeared once for all to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself (He9:26). We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body od Jesus Christ once for all (He 10:10).

1Peter 3:12 tells us that the eyes of the Lord are on the rightious and his ears are attentive to their prayer. This rightiousness is derived not from our actions, or our earthly ordination, but solely from Jesus Christ who is our rightiousness (1 Cor 1:30). There is no need for a mediator other than Christ.

My critique of the Catholic priesthood (and of many other Christian groups) is that they place mediators between God and man...as you yourself put it; "the proper task of the priest consists in being a mediator between God and men (S. Th. III, 22, 1). And St. Paul instructs us in 1 Tim. 2:5 that Jesus is the one Mediator between God and men."

If Christ is the one eternally existing mediator, we do not need any other.

Every follower of Christ is called to be be a priest, bringing spiritual sacrifices before God through Jesus Christ (1 Peter 2:5), and each of us is called to sacerdos... to bring the things of God before men. Jesus makes this explicit in the 'Great Commission' (Mt 28:29).

Absolutely, the office of priest is an important one. It is one that we each need to recognise when we come before God and accept His Son as our Lord and Saviour. By accepting Christ, we commit ourselves not to a life as observer in the pews, but a life of service to Him.

[livius]

One thing frequently overlooked in discussing this is that the priest is not acting as a mediator in addition to Christ, but is acting in persona christi, that is, in the person of Christ. The Mass that is offered every day is not an additional sacrifice, it is THE Sacrifice, the non-bloody repetition of the same sacrifice of Calvary at all times throughout history. We are at Calvary, we are standing at the foot of the Cross, and the priest is both victim and priest, in that same Sacrifice, not a different or additional one. It is the sacrificial event that was the culmination of all sacrifices under the Old Law and extends throughout all history thereafter, still happening every day on our altars.

The changes to the Mass after Vatican II unfortunately clouded this aspect of Catholic Eucharistic theology somewhat, but this stunning fact of the One Sacrifice is actually what the Church believes about the priest and his role. There is only one Mediator: that is Our Lord, Jesus Christ. And the priest is acting as an alter Christus at that moment, not as an addition or supplement to Our Lord.

Ordination is considered in the Catholic Church to effect an ontological change, which is what makes this possible for the priest; he is not merely the designated person for performing a certain role in a commemorative act, but is empowered through the Holy Spirit acting through the Church to participate, in persona Christi, in the one sacrifice of Calvary that is still being enacted among us to this day.

[A.A. Cunningham]

"And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God." Mathhew 22:29

"He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me." Luke 10:16

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:16

[A.A. Cunningham]

I pray directly to Jesus,

So do Catholics. We also recognize and utilize the manifestation of God's grace through and with the Communion of Saints.

[Uncle Chip]

"And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God." Mathhew 22:29

"He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me." Luke 10:16

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:16

Thank You --- by all means let's add your verses to our scripture reading this Sunday morning ["For many shall come in my name, saying 'I am Christ', and shall deceive many" Mt 24:5], after contemplating this little gem from the article:

"The Catholic faith teaches that the priest is another Christ, an alter Christus.

[A.A. Cunningham]

they place mediators between God and man

Do you believe in the Trinity? Is Jesus God? Is there any distinction between praying to Jesus, or the Paraclete, and God. In accordance with Scripture Catholics utilize intercessors who are a manifestation of God's grace.

"Who is he that shall condemn? Christ Jesus that died, yea that is risen also again; who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." Romans 8:34

"Whereby he is able also to save for ever them that come to God by him; always living to make intercession for us." Hebrews 7:25

"I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:" 1 Timothy 2:1

"And said to them: If it please your soul that I should bury my dead, hear me, and intercede for me to Ephron the son of Seor." Genesis 23:8

"Always in all my prayers making supplication for you all, with joy;" Philippians 1:4

Main Entry: in·ter·ces·sion
Pronunciation: "in-t&r-'se-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin intercession-, intercessio, from intercedere
1 : the act of interceding
2 : prayer, petition, or entreaty in favor of another

Main Entry: sup·pli·cate
Pronunciation: 's&-pl&-"kAt
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -cat·ed; -cat·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin supplicatus, past participle of supplicare, from supplic-, supplex supplicant -- more at SUPPLE
intransitive verb : to make a humble entreaty; especially : to pray to God
transitive verb
1 : to ask humbly and earnestly of
2 : to ask for earnestly and humbly
synonym see BEG
- sup·pli·ca·tion /"s&-pl&-'kA-sh&n/ noun

[tioga]

My divorced BIL receives/received Communion. He eventually got an annulment and married again. He never stopped practicing his faith within the Catholic Church. And his first wife gave him custody of their children. He was at such peace and so happy in his new life, she felt he “deserved” them. LOL - Whatever her intentions, his life was complete then.

[A.A. Cunningham]

Is it your claim that Catholic Priests who are the manifestation of Christ's unending Priesthood "deceive many"?

Christianus alter Christus

Are you familiar with Acts 8 and Philip's intercourse with the eunuch? If not you should be.

[Uncle Chip]

Is it your claim that Catholic Priests who are the manifestation of Christ's unending Priesthood "deceive many"?

The Catholic hierarchy that claims that their priests are the manifestation of Christ are deceiving Catholics.

[ears_to_hear]

One thing frequently overlooked in discussing this is that the priest is not acting as a mediator in addition to Christ, but is acting in persona christi, that is, in the person of Christ.

Here a Christ there a Christ everywhere a christ, christ. There is NO provision for priests in the new church. The priest was a type of Christ and He became both priest and sacrifice.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

THE Sacrifice, the non-bloody repetition of the same sacrifice of Calvary at all times throughout history.

Hbr 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

There is no provision in scripture for an ongoing sacrifice

Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hbr 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

[A.A. Cunningham]

"And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me." Galatians 2:20

"According to my expectation and hope; that in nothing I shall be confounded, but with all confidence, as always, so now also shall Christ be magnified in my body, wither it be by life, or by death. For to me, to live is Christ; and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21

'I answer that, As stated above (78, 1,4), such is the dignity of this sacrament that it is performed only as in the person of Christ. Now whoever performs any act in another's stead, must do so by the power bestowed by such a one. But as the power of receiving this sacrament is conceded by Christ to the baptized person, so likewise the power of consecrating this sacrament on Christ's behalf is bestowed upon the priest at his ordination: for thereby he is put upon a level with them to whom the Lord said (Luke 22:19): "Do this for a commemoration of Me." Therefore, it must be said that it belongs to priests to accomplish this sacrament.' St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica

[A.A. Cunningham]

You are sadly mistaken and display a monumental ignorance of both Scripture and the history of Christiandom.

[Uncle Chip]

"And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me." Galatians 2:20 "According to my expectation and hope; that in nothing I shall be confounded, but with all confidence, as always, so now also shall Christ be magnified in my body, wither it be by life, or by death. For to me, to live is Christ; and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21

Where does Paul say that he was Christ or even another Christ ?

[Uncle Chip]

You are sadly mistaken and display a monumental ignorance of both Scripture and the history of Christiandom.

Oh really!!! How about this gem from your Catholic Catechism:

#795 "Christ and his Church thus together make up the "whole Christ" (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. ... Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God's grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ."

Well--Well--Well ---- according to your Catholic Catechism, every Catholic is Christ and should therefore be qualified to say Mass and offer those unbloody mystical sacrifices, not just your priests, right??? There should be rejoicing in Catholicdom --- no more shortage of Christs, err priests, that is.

[GCC Catholic]

Context, context, context.

795 Christ and his Church thus together make up the "whole Christ" (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity:

Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God's grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man. . . . The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does "head and members" mean? Christ and the Church.230

Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.231

Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.232

A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter."233

Just as the Bible was never meant to have single verses plucked for prooftexting, nor was the Catechism. The section that contains this paragraph speaks of the relation of Christ and the Church, and specifically the position of the Church as part of the Mystical Body of Christ.

The section in its entirety can be found here.

Incidentially, the quote you mention was given by St. Augustine, darling of Evangelicals, other Protestants, and even several of the reformers themselves.

[GCC Catholic]

It is important to look at Mt. 24 in context.

15: "So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16: then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; 17: let him who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house; 18: and let him who is in the field not turn back to take his mantle. 19: And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days! 20: Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath. 21: For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22: And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23: Then if any one says to you, `Lo, here is the Christ!' or `There he is!' do not believe it. 24: For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25: Lo, I have told you beforehand. 26: So, if they say to you, `Lo, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out; if they say, `Lo, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27: For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man. 28: Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together. 29: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; 30: then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; 31: and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (RSV)

The rest of Chapter 24 is available here. From a plain reading, we see that these passages refer to the destruction of the temple and the Second Coming of Christ.

[livius]

My whole point is that there are no “new Christs” or secondary Christs or anything like that. The priest, through his ordination, becomes a participant, in persona Christi, in that one sacrifice, which is that same sacrifice still offered in the Mass. He does not become a separate Christ, just as the Mass is not a separate, smaller, if you will, emulation of Calvary.

Part of your misunderstanding is based on the fact that Protestants see ordination as a functional thing, that is, the person ordained is actually just commissioned by the community to perform a particular function, whether preaching or presiding over the symbolic gesture of a Protestant communion service, etc.

The concept of the priesthood and ordination in Catholicism is entirely different.

[ears_to_hear]

So if men call themselves christ we should believer Him? It is fine with God?

The fact is that since the resurrection of Christ we have lived in “the last days”

Your churches teaching is an abomination before God IMHO

The destruction of the 2nd temple by God destroyed the “priesthood” forever.

[markomalley]

One thing I find fascinating in studying the Divine Liturgy (be it the Mass or one of the Eastern liturgies) is the eternal nature of the sacrifice (τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου -- Rev 13:8c -- the lamb that was sacrificed from the foundation of the world (kosmos - age))

Appreciating the timelessness of God is essential in understanding, correctly, what happens with the sacrifice of the Mass. Ref Pet 3:8 (μία ἡμέρα παρὰ κυρίῳ ὡς χίλια ἔτη καὶ χίλια ἔτη ὡς ἡμέρα μία -- one day is with the Lord like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day).

Without the understanding of the two ideas, above, it is impossible to truly understand the sacrificial nature of the Mass.

The pre-figuring of the sacrifice offered by Melchisedec, the offering of Isaac by Abraham, the passover, even the offering of Abel take on new meaning when the concepts in those verses are understood.

Hebrews 9 becomes, rather than a mystery, clear for all (whose eyes have been opened by the Holy Spirit) to see. Without an understanding of the eternal sacrifice, the eternal offering of the Lamb of God, many verses in that chapter remain a mystery or are misinterpreted. For example,

For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. (Heb 9:24)...οὐ γὰρ εἰς χειροποίητα εἰσῆλθεν ἅγια Χριστός ἀντίτυπα τῶν ἀληθινῶν ἀλλ' εἰς αὐτὸν τὸν οὐρανόν νῦν ἐμφανισθῆναι τῷ προσώπῳ τοῦ θεοῦ ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν

In your statement, The changes to the Mass after Vatican II unfortunately clouded this aspect of Catholic Eucharistic theology somewhat, but this stunning fact of the One Sacrifice is actually what the Church believes about the priest and his role, is all too true. In the traditional ad Orientem orientation, the sacrificial nature of the Mass is far clearer, while in the versus populum orientation, the memorial and passover meal nature of the Mass is emphasized.

But there is one thing, Livius, that I would take issue with in your post. You said, the non-bloody repetition of the same sacrifice, in what I believe to be a misstatement on your part (please advise if I'm mistaken). It is, in fact, a re-presentation. And if we look at Rev 13:8, we, in fact, can see that the ongoing sacrifice from the foundation of the world is brought, by the power of the Holy Spirit, down from Heaven onto the altar. As we can see from the old mass far clearer, then, the priest, acting in persona Christi, offers the body of Christ, made present in the appearance of bread and wine, to the Father. As shown in Rev 5:6 and in Rev 13:8 (as quoted above), this is no new sacrifice. It is an opportunity that God, in his manifest goodness, has provided to his creation, to take part in the continual sacrifice and offering that is ongoing, even now, in Heaven.

[ears_to_hear]

Does he stand for Christ? What does the word Vicar mean? I know you believe it is the self same sacrifice, and that too is an abomination before God and Christ who completed that sacrifice, that was accepted by the Father as demonstrated by the resurrection

You keep re slaying Christ and drinking his body and eating His body, you do not accept the work of the cross unless men keep doing it over and over

Men always want to be in control..Gen 3:5 — For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

[DragoonEnNoir]

Thanks for the clarification Livius, and I think you're right that it is an important one.

Yet may I ask where we are told that the Spirit empowers us in this way? The NT lists numerous gifts and activities of the Holy Spirit, but I'm not aware of any reference to acting persona Christi in his sacrifice.

Through the best of intentions, Catholicism has allowed itself to accumulate traditions and trappings that are not grounded in the word of God (as most human institutions will... thus the need to constantly correct and rebuke one another when necessary). The difficulty is that these create stumbling blocks for those seeking after Truth.

By having a 'priesthood' as the repository of knowledge and authority, we create a laity who are children beneath their father. Yet we are clearly told that we are to have only one head and one Father. Christ speaking to his Disciples and others says, "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi', for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father', for you have one Father, and he is in heaven." (Matthew 23:8-9)

Honor and glory should not be given to men, but to God to whom it belongs.

[Uncle Chip]

Context, context, context.

The context doesn't make things much better, nor the fact that it came from Augustine, the darling of some reformers, including this:

"About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter."

I think it is more complicated than that. Is Jesus really only half a person without the Church???

[markomalley]

Is Jesus really only half a person without the Church???

Rom 12:5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

I Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

---

Scripture is pretty clear about it.

[DragoonEnNoir]

Yes, I think the timelessness (or rather 'outside' of time) of God is a concept that is often not understood. I think it is most clearly demonstrated in the nature of prophesy.

The same prophesy can refer to events past, present and future. Furthermore it points to the nature of prophesy itself. It is not a guessing game or parlor trick by God, but rather extends naturally from His nature as being transcendant over time. He created and is Master of all things... including time.

Christ's sacrifice thus was the culminating act in the defeat of Satan and sin, both 2000 years ago and forevermore.

Let us look then at Rev 5:6 and 13:8, which you cite.

Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes whch are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. (Rev 5:6)

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast- all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. (Rev 13:8)

Mark, you state that "And if we look at Rev 13:8, we, in fact, can see that the ongoing sacrifice from the foundation of the world is brought, by the power of the Holy Spirit, down from Heaven onto the altar... the priest, acting in persona Christi, offers the body of Christ, made present in the appearance of bread and wine, to the Father." With all due respect, I can not see how you draw that from Rev. 13:8, which is a passage relating the blashemies and authority of the beast.

You mention Hebrews, so please allow me to bring forth several pertinant passages from there.

Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people (Heb 9:28)

Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you (God) did not desire, nor were you pleased with them (Heb 10:8)

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest (Jesus the Christ) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. (Heb 10:11-12)

Christ died once for our sins. He does not need to die again, either in person or in persona Christi.

I do not question your love of God, or your service and years of dedication to Him. I do say clearly though that we need to look carefully at what we do and where it comes from. Our worldly culture and traditions need to be removed where they create stumbling blocks to people seeking after God. This is especially true within our church cultures, not just within Catholicism, but within all groups that take the name of Christ.

Livius, My apologies for including you in this reply if it is unwelcome. I just noticed that the post was directed at both of us, and felt it only courteous to include you in the rejoinder. It is always good to hear from you however.

[AlaninSA]

Unless you’re able do more than vomit out the trash preached in your “church” by your “pastors,” just leave it alone.

[livius]

The Vicar of Christ is the Pope, that is, the bishop who stands in the place of St. Peter among the Apostles and has been given certain powers and responsibilities that the other Apostles did not have. This is different from the priesthood.

You’re still not understanding what I’m saying, though. The one Sacrifice of Christ was an event in time but at the same time an eternal event, because the Church, the Body of Christ, extends this event through modern, current time towards the future, when Christ shall be all in all, and also takes into itself all the past preparation for the event. It’s not a matter of “re-slaying” Christ. This is the same Sacrifice.

[livius]

The Church (both visible and invisible, btw) as the Body of Christ is a vitally important concept that has been sadly neglected in recent years.

[livius]

No, that’s fine - your posts are interesting, learned, respectful of the opposing view, and precisely the sort of thing I think should be here. I’m honored to be included.

I think you have identified one of the stumbling blocks, which is the concept of eternity. People tend to think of it as being something that stretches out before them, but actually, eternity makes a present moment out of everything.

We move through time, that is, towards the future. A person who ceases to move towards the future has died, in a sense, because he has ceased to move through time. I once heard Julián Marías, a fine Spanish philosopher virtually unknown here, tell a story about visiting someone in the hospital. The man had been in the hospital several times, and had finally decided that this was it, he was going to die, and Marías said that suddenly, visits dropped off, everything changed, and essentially, this man had moved himself outside of the flow of time. So for us, human beings living now and even living in Christ, futurity is important, and in fact when we cease to think and live towards the future, we are either dead or very nearly so and regarded that way by our fellow pilgrims through time. We are fixed at that point. But what is the goal?

In terms of eternity, that point exists forever, and our death at that moment seals our will as it is at that time. But on a cosmic scale, the entire history of our civilization is named from the Year of Our Lord (one of the reason atheists wish to change it to “Common Era”), because that was the defining event, the change to another modality, if you will, that defined the form and goal of human history. At the same time, because from the point of view of eternity there is, in a sense, no movement, that moment exists forever, and so does the moment of the Sacrifice of Christ.

It was the culminating event, but it is still going on, and the Church - empowered by Christ Himself to do this - is not reproducing an isolated event but participating in the one event, the one sacrifice. It is doing this through its ordained ministry, that is, the priests, who derive this capacity through the bishop, since the bishops (Apostles) were commissioned by Christ; and it also does it through the existence of the Church (both visible and invisble) on earth as the Body of Christ.

[Iscool]

From a plain reading, we see that these passages refer to the destruction of the temple and the Second Coming of Christ.

From a plain reading???

21: For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

You don't think 6 million Jews alone, dying in prison camps in Europe was worse than the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.???

30: then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory;

All the tribes of the earth will see Jesus coming on the clouds??? I haven't read yet of the church Father's account of this...Surely you have some copies you could post...

31: and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (RSV)

And Jesus sent out his angels with a very big horn and in 70 A.D. it got blown, and then the angels gathered Jesus' 'elect' from one end of heaven to another???

I thought you guys were the 'elect'...What were you doing in heaven...And now you are on earth???

It pretty clear to any one that can read that Matthew 24 is not a reference to anything in 70 A.D...

So explain, how did you come to the conclusion that Matt. 24 happened in 70 A.D.???