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To: Aquinasfan
This miracle brought about the conversion of 9 million pagans, so it bore good fruit.

Notice also that the image is Scriptural

Perhaps in this way, God could use Mary to lead the people away from their pagan religion and to Himself.

The bishop dismissed Juan Diego's visions until the day when Juan Diego unfurled his tilma bearing the miraculous image, and fresh roses tumbled out. This was in wintertime, when roses were not in bloom.

22 posted on 06/18/2007 8:46:03 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
It doesn't matter HOW many conversions it brought about.

"You will know a tree by its fruit." --Jesus

I am sure that we both would agree that if tomorrow 9 million Hindus became Budhists we would not marvel and think this was God at work. From the Budhist's perspective they might.

But we're not talking about non-Christian religions. We're talking about 9 million conversions to Christianity. Does that sound like the work of Satan?

"If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?" --Jesus

So? Doesn't anyone stop and think that this person could have 1) been deceived or 2) been a deceiver?

See above.

Perhaps, except to say that God the Father is not recounted in the story. Mary is talking about coming to her, not the Father.

Sometimes Christians aid other people without invoking God's name. That does't make their actions intrinsically evil. Besides, in the account I read she identified herself as the Mother of God. She also instructed Juan Diego to go to see his bishop --to go to the Church. The connection with Christ's Church is quite clear.

1 Timothy 3:15

if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

And the magicians in Egypt were able to do miraculous signs. Simon in Acts was also.

And the devil may appear as an angel of light.

But what fruit did these signs bear? Again, Satan would not work a sign that would result in the mass conversion of pagans. His kingdom would be divided against itself.

29 posted on 06/18/2007 10:54:22 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: HarleyD; Aquinasfan; fatima; Campion
And the magicians in Egypt were able to do miraculous signs. Simon in Acts was also. History, even recorded in scripture, have always been filled with people who can do miraculous things. This is not an indication of anything.


We have been warned about those that will mislead. I only know of one instance where God will use humans (we believe are dead) to bring his message to us and that has not occurred yet. In Scripture God reveals his message to us through his Son, the Holy Spirit, or angels.

34 posted on 06/18/2007 11:40:02 AM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: HarleyD; Aquinasfan; Campion
HarleyD, you are quite right to be skeptical about this or any other alleged apparition. It is far more common for an apparition to be the product of wishful thinking, imagination, abnormal mental processes, or hoax than for it to be a true miracle of God: and even demonic deception is always a possibility.

This particular apparition has some strong evidence in its favor; but other FReepers have posted lots of links, so I encourage you to train you critical eye on it, and evaluate things for yourself.

Here's a reasonable hypothesis of why Christ's mother--- if this is His mother---- would want to emphasize so much her own motherhood. And that would be hinted at by the location of her visit. It was the hill of Tepeyac, where previously there had been the pyramid of the Aztec goddess Tonantzin, which means simply "Venerable Mother."

The Aztecs had as great an interest in and reverence for sacred realities as did the pagan Greeks at Areopagus. But it's hard for us even to grasp the profound humiliation and disorientation they suffered when their whole society was shattered by this utterly alien invasion and conquest. It would be very hard for them to accept Christ from the aliens at Castilian knifepoint; Christianity would be seen as something that almost deified the Spanish, while annihilating the Aztec.

So it was necessary for them to be evangelized by "one of their own," so to speak. And thus Mary came, very young, very dark, very much NOT a goddess, hands folded reverently and eyes meekly downcast, using elaborate Aztec iconographic aymbolism to tell them --- as Paul told the Greeks at Mars Hill --- who their "unknown god" really is.

Don't be misled by thinking her whole message is in her words. It's all in her visual symbolism. She is not the Supreme Being. But she is carrying Him.

The fact that she wanted a 'temple' under the authority of Bishop Zumarraga clearly means she wanted to draw people into the church of the Christians, for here many millions have encountered Christ.

If it were not for her, I believe the Mesoamerican people would overwhelmingly be Huitzilopochtli-worshippers to this day.

In fact, thinking of the titanic struggle going on in Mexico even now as we speak, with their vile government oppressing the poor (abort them or export them!), rapidly and comprehensively embracing the Culture of Death (legalizing abortion, promoting contraception, honoring perverse sexuality, and prostitution) I suspect Huitzilopochtli is still a strong contender.

Give a thought to the significance of that snake under Mary's foot. "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and hers..."

37 posted on 06/18/2007 12:32:46 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Ya think?)
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