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Author claims art depicting Godís Son is sinful
The Times and Democrat ^ | June 22, 2007 | WENDY JEFFCOAT CRIDER

Posted on 06/22/2007 11:44:00 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

Justin Griffin of Columbia started losing his vision as a senior in high school, the same year he professed his faith in the Lord.

“My plans for me in high school were to graduate, join the military and become a professional soldier,” he said. “I had no love of God. I had no love of people.

“Basically, I was my own God.”

A victim of retinitis pigmentosa, a hereditary disease of the retina of the eye, Griffin said he didn’t view his failing vision as a curse.

“When the blindness came, I looked on it as a blessing,” said the 35-year-old married father of one. “I thought I had the power, and obviously it failed. There are things that happen in life we have no control over.”

As do most plans in life, Griffin’s changed, not only because he lost his eyesight, but he felt the call of the Lord leading him into the ministry. To become a minister, his denomination – the Presbyterian Church in America – required him to get a master’s degree in theology and write a paper on a controversial topic.

Griffin, ironically, chose to investigate whether or not images, pictures, statues and other art forms depicting Jesus Christ are in violation of the Second Commandment.

His conclusion? It can be found in Griffin’s first book, “The Truth About Images of Jesus and the 2nd Commandment” (Tate Publishing, 145 pages, $11.99).

Written in a conversational tone – Griffin dictated the project to his computer – that’s thorough and thought-provoking, “Images” attempts to blow open every argument claiming the images of Jesus are not a violation of the Second Commandment handed down to Moses on Mount Sinai: “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.” (Exodus 20:4-5)

Compiling as many different angles of attack and arguments as he could, Griffin said the conclusion always came up the same – that the images many Protestant Evangelicals hold dear are sinful.

“There are mountains and mountains of historical information surrounding the images of Jesus,” Griffin said. He enlisted the help of seminary pal Andrew Morrison, who also helped transcribe Hebrew passages, to dig up and dredge through research for the book.

In his book, Griffin examines the origins of images of Jesus, the mandate for those images and, ultimately, the consequences of their display.

“The images violate the Second Commandment,” Griffin said. “It’s one of those things you want to prove wrong, but the facts kept piling up and piling up.

“Finally, I said, ‘Let’s just ask the question and see what the conclusion is.’”

He knows the view is unpopular. In fact, he says he was forced to resign as a church youth director because of the nature of the book and because his family refused to portray Jesus, Mary and Joseph in a Nativity display.

Griffin, who holds a master’s degree in theology from Columbia International University, is currently writing a book about evangelism and is working on a Christian fantasy novel. He said he’s not looking to become famous from sales of “Images” because of the narrow Christian book market and his book’s topic.

“It’s not a safe topic because people have strong-held beliefs about the images,” Griffin said. “Some Christian book stores won’t even stock the book, which I understand because there is a little hypocrisy.

“(But) I don’t regret writing this book. The only thing I would say I regret is I didn’t write this faster.”

While there have been those who have tried to dispute his findings, Griffin said he has had no one come up with a good argument to prove him wrong.

“It’s really hard because it’s not a lukewarm book,” he said. “Because it’s not a wishy-washy book, it’s going to upset a lot of people.”

“Some people don’t get mad about the book – they’ve never thought about it,” Griffin said.

General comments from people who have read “Images,” however, have been positive, he said.

“I really wanted to write the book so that anyone could pick it up and get to the conclusion and know how it got there – and understand it,” Griffin said. “I wrote the book for the everyday Christian.”

Copies of “The Truth About the Images of Jesus and the 2nd Commandment” can purchased at the Happy Bookseller and Barnes & Noble locations in Columbia and online at www.tatepublishing.com.

Local pastors respond

Pastors surveyed Thursday disagree that images of Jesus are a sin.

Olin Whitener, interim pastor at First Presbyterian Church in Orangeburg, said there is nothing sinful about famous works of art depicting Jesus rescuing a lamb or embracing children.

“How can images like that be sinful?” he said. “We have images of Jesus in the scriptures. They are painted for us by the words themselves.

“(Images) help us to put a face on what’s going on. We see it in our mind’s eye anyway. It’s not something we worship. It’s not something sinful.”

Whitener said there is no passage in the Bible that says pictures, paintings and other art depicting Jesus is sinful.

“It’s when we worship images we get in trouble,” he said.

The Rev. Paul Hamilton, director of pastoral care at the Regional Medical Center, said people do not bow down to images of Jesus, which he said create an atmosphere conducive to church worship.

“It’s not a sin,” he said. “We have physical things to remind us of spiritual things. We experience the world as humans through our five senses. The images and pictures remind us of very spiritual realities.”

Images of Jesus are used more as a reference point about Jesus’ works and ministry, said the Rev. D. Edward Chaney of Orangeburg’s Mount Pisgah Baptist Church.

“When you see a picture of Jesus, it allows you to look back in retrospect at who He is, what He has done,” he said. And, Chaney said, there’s nothing sinful about that.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: iconoclasm; icons; idolatry; idols; pca; presbyterian; sacredimages

1 posted on 06/22/2007 11:44:02 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy
I wonder what he thinks about 'Buddy Christ'?


2 posted on 06/22/2007 11:47:10 AM PDT by mnehring (Virtus Junxit Mors Non Separabit)
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To: Alex Murphy
He seems to be endorsing the heresy condemned by the seventh Ecumenical Council.

-A8

3 posted on 06/22/2007 11:50:53 AM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Alex Murphy

He ought to have studied the Second Ecumenical Council of Nicaea 787AD.

Iconoclasm is a heresy!


4 posted on 06/22/2007 11:52:04 AM PDT by Macoraba
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To: Macoraba

Iconoclasm appears in all heresies. It was a fundamental feature of Mohammed’s heretical syncretist cult.


5 posted on 06/22/2007 12:00:03 PM PDT by livius
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To: Alex Murphy
Even these guys were late coming to the iconoclast party:


Soldiers destroying church fittings at York Minster

6 posted on 06/22/2007 12:15:55 PM PDT by siunevada (If we learn nothing from history, what's the point of having one? - Peggy Hill)
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To: siunevada

The Huguenot pirates ranged up and down the coast of Spain, destroying all church art and statuary in the little unprotected village churches they found. Well, after stealing anything of value, that is. Same with the Brits.


7 posted on 06/22/2007 12:46:57 PM PDT by livius
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To: Alex Murphy

Here’s a site about II Nicaea —>

Second Council of Nicaea - 787
Address:http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum07.htm Changed:12:36 PM on Friday, June 22, 2007


8 posted on 06/22/2007 12:49:49 PM PDT by Macoraba
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To: Alex Murphy

Here’s the amazon dot com link —>

Amazon.com: The Truth about Images of Jesus and the 2nd Commandment: Books: Justin Griffin
Address:http://www.amazon.com/Truth-about-Images-Jesus-Commandment/dp/1598865544/ref=sr_1_1/002-6522323-1604017?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182541939&sr=1-1

I may just order it to see how ridiculous it really is!


9 posted on 06/22/2007 1:00:22 PM PDT by Macoraba
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To: Alex Murphy
Compiling as many different angles of attack and arguments as he could, Griffin said the conclusion always came up the same – that the images many Protestant Evangelicals hold dear are sinful.

It would eliminate a lot of schmaltzy Christian kitch.

“How can images like that be sinful?” he said. “We have images of Jesus in the scriptures. They are painted for us by the words themselves.

Uhhh, no. Not the same at all.

10 posted on 06/22/2007 4:28:31 PM PDT by Lee N. Field
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To: Macoraba

You wrote:

“I may just order it to see how ridiculous it really is!”

If you do please tells what you discover about the book!


11 posted on 06/22/2007 4:54:42 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: livius

I conoclasm seem historically to have been a response to Islam. It seems not have had any currency before the 8th Century. But theologically it goes hand in hand with a denial of the Incarnation.


12 posted on 06/22/2007 5:04:41 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHOa)
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To: AnAmericanMother

On better days, I could drop the name of that Flannery O’Connor story, without cheating by looking at the book.


13 posted on 06/22/2007 5:24:13 PM PDT by dighton
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To: dighton

“Parker’s Back”?


14 posted on 06/22/2007 5:45:22 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother

YES, thank you.


15 posted on 06/22/2007 5:48:50 PM PDT by dighton
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To: dighton

They should make this fellow read that story.


16 posted on 06/22/2007 5:49:27 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother

By the way, ninety-nine times out of a hundred, the submerged item will shoot to the surface a moment after posting. This was the exception.


17 posted on 06/22/2007 5:52:59 PM PDT by dighton
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To: dighton
That tip-of-the-tongue phenomenon is common with me too.

It's just like I always think of the perfect rejoinder 5 minutes after the conversation is over . . . .

18 posted on 06/22/2007 5:56:55 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother
L’esprit de l’escalier.
19 posted on 06/22/2007 6:03:50 PM PDT by dighton
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To: dighton
Que?

Je ne parle pas français.

Ich spreche ein bißl Deutsch, paululum linguae Latinae, mikroteroV ellhnisti.

20 posted on 06/22/2007 6:20:49 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: dighton

‘gus tha beagan a’Ghaidlig agam.


21 posted on 06/22/2007 6:24:00 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother
Excepting bits and pieces picked up here and there, I’m shamefully monoglot. L’esprit de l’escalier (lit. something like ‘staircase wit’) pins down those perfect but late rejoinders.
22 posted on 06/22/2007 6:27:59 PM PDT by dighton
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To: dighton
OK, I get it! It's what you think of when you're climbing the stairs to go to bed . . . or going downstairs to leave the party.

I had a friend in high school who was a heavy-duty Francophile (she went on to get a degree from the Sorbonne that qualifies her to teach French -- in France). She was always trying to get me to learn French, even gave me Asterix comics to try to lure me in. But I was taking German in high school and went on taking it in college, then thought about a Classics major so took Latin and Greek, never got around to French.

She recently gave my kids a book about pirates . . . IN FRENCH! She is very persistent.

23 posted on 06/22/2007 7:34:49 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: dighton
I've always thought it was "point de l'escalier", but either way I LOVE IT!

That said, I think the prohibition is against worshiping the image. But, yes, let's do away with the kitsch. Please.

24 posted on 06/22/2007 7:49:20 PM PDT by AnnaZ (I keep 2 magnums in my desk.One's a gun and I keep it loaded.Other's a bottle and it keeps me loaded)
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To: Alex Murphy
“The images violate the Second Commandment,” Griffin said.

Keep your laws off my spirit! Gal 3:13

25 posted on 06/22/2007 7:56:23 PM PDT by ovrtaxt (THOMPSON NEEDS TO CLARIFY HIS POSITION ON THE SPP BEFORE I SUPPORT HIM.)
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To: Alex Murphy
Pastors surveyed Thursday disagree that images of Jesus are a sin.

Interesting considering that only 51% of American Pastors have a Biblical Worldview.

Barna Survey

26 posted on 06/22/2007 8:05:25 PM PDT by uptoolate (How can a Holy, Righteous, and Just God NOT kill me for what I said, thought and did yesterday)
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To: AnAmericanMother
Ich spreche ein bißl Deutsch, paululum linguae Latinae, mikroteroV ellhnisti.

Yes, but can you understand Gullah?

27 posted on 06/22/2007 9:26:29 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: PAR35
Don't laugh. My parents live in coastal GA, so yes, I can understand Gullah. I can even speak a little bit.

I've got my Gullah Bible -- I think it was one of the early Presidents of Harvard who said that the best way to learn a foreign language was to get hold of a Bible.

28 posted on 06/23/2007 12:50:03 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Lee N. Field
It would eliminate a lot of schmaltzy Christian kitch.

Hey, some of us like our "schmaltzy Christian kitch". And I just discovered some brand new, especially amusing kitch yesterday!

Santos - Collect All 10!

29 posted on 06/23/2007 7:25:22 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: AnAmericanMother

Some years ago, some Wycliffe missionaries came to the church I then attended. They were working on a Gullah Bible. I don’t recall where they were orignially from. As part of the presentation, after telling about the long process they used to learn the language, they showed video of the locals speaking in Gullah.

They weren’t very happy when I went up to them afterwords to tell them it sounded like Geeghie to me, and that I’d be happy to translate the audio from them, as it was well understood by many Georgians my age and older.

My understanding after that conversation is that Geechie isn’t a politically correct term anymore, and that Geechies should be called by the broader geographical term Gullah.


30 posted on 06/23/2007 7:37:37 AM PDT by PAR35
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To: Alex Murphy

I do think we should be very careful about depicting Jesus pictorially. I’m not sure it’s out and out wrong, but there are legitimate reasons why we should be very careful.

Images always reflect the biases of the artist. And, even unconsciously, when we look at an image, we see in it what we want to. Or, we absorb the inherent bias in the image.

This is why God’s word is so wonderful. It is the perfect vehicle for “seeing” Jesus, and should always be the first place we go when we want to understand him and appreciate him. First it is accurate. Second, it is sufficient — everything we need to know is there. Third, it is living. The Word, planted in us, actually grows and renews us. Fourth, it forces us to think — the Bible ain’t easy reading, and there is a lot there to absorb (it’s densely packed with information). Fifth, it takes our eyes off of other people’s perceptions, ideas, and agendas, and places them exactly where God wants them.

The story of Zacchaeus is a great model for how God wants us to approach Jesus:

1. He recognized he was too short to see Jesus — his insufficiency. Pretty easy to understand. He must admit that we, too, are insufficient.

2. And he knew that to see him, he had to look over the crowd. You ever notice how people who reject Christianity rarely do so because of the “faults” of Jesus? They never say, “Jesus did this wrong, or Jesus did that wrong. The never say, “If only Jesus hadn’t been so (fill in the blank). They never say, “Jesus was a bad person.”

They usually use the faults of the church. Phony hypocrites, historical shortcomings, bad priests, etc. In other words, “the crowd.” They don’t see Jesus, they see the crowd. We know the church is full of sheep and goats — true believers and pretenders. And we know that only Jesus, not the church, can save us. But non-believers don’t know that.

Zacchaeus wisely looked over the crowd to see Jesus directly, just as he was — not as he was represented by others. Remember this when sharing Jesus with others. Don’t defend the church and don’t preach theology. Show people Jesus. And use stories from the Bible to do this. They were each designed to teach us specific things.

3. Zacchaeus climbed a tree. This is significant. It wasn’t included in the story for no reason. It was included because it happened, and because we have something to learn from it.

When Zacchaeus climbed a tree, he essentially made an ass out of himself publicly. He lived in a very, very formal culture, where dignified behavior was expected of everyone. Dignity above all else. Outward appearances and behavior above all else. And in his position, he had every reason to be dignified.

Zacchaeus behaved just like an enthusiastic little kid when he climbed the tree. Imagine your local mayor or city councilman pulling a stunt like that at a public parade, just to see a celebrity. Oh, no, these people must look the part, act the part, and not cross the line. If they wanted to meet a celebrity, they’d send their people out to arrange an introduction.

Not Zacchaeus. He wanted to see Jesus so desperately, he was willing to be ridiculed to do so. “Unless you become like a child, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven” Important words in the Bible. Child-like faith and the willingness to be humble are paramount in entering the kingdom. It simply won’t happen without it.

4. Lastly, Zacchaeus took Jesus home. The words in Hebrew used to describe this have a different connotation than you might expect. They don’t connote a “visit”. They connote “room and board,” or “bunking” with someone. Zacchaeus brought Jesus home “for good.” He brought him into his life, into the warp and woof of his existence — his morning, his evening, his everything.

This is what Jesus wants us to do with him.

MY POINT

So my point is, you can see how important it is to look at the textual accounts of Jesus to understand him. Looking at a mere picture just won’t do that. In fact, I would say it won’t do anything of real value for you, and if you think it will, you may be dangerously fooling yourself.

Look at God’s word. That’s the best place to see Jesus for who he is.


31 posted on 06/23/2007 7:52:43 AM PDT by Silly (http://www.paulklenk.us)
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To: PAR35
Actually, Geechee is the specific dialect spoken along the Ogeechee River near Savannah (Skidaway Island, Wassaw Island, and other areas just south of the city). Justice Clarence Thomas grew up in that area and spoke Geechee as a child. It was looked down upon in those days, but now it's considered an important linguistic feature and is studied for doctoral theses!

Gullah is a more general term for the old coastal black dialects, which are all related.

If you want to see as good a representation in print as you will ever see of Gullah, take a look at Joel Chandler Harris's "Daddy Jake, the Runaway." It's usually included in the big edition of the Uncle Remus stories. Harris was probably the best recorder of the old black dialects that ever lived -- when Uncle Remus talks with Daddy Jake, you can see (and hear in your mind's ear) the real differences between the coastal dialect and the dialect of a middle Georgia plantation.

32 posted on 06/23/2007 7:53:26 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Alex Murphy
Y'know what, those are kinda cute.

You have to reach people where they are, and I'd rather the kids were buying those than Power Rangers!

33 posted on 06/23/2007 7:56:06 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Silly
Good points, I would add a very slight caveat.

As C.S. Lewis said, whatever works for you. Some people are not good readers. And even if they can read, some folks are "right brained" and "get it" through pictures or movement or music. Some absorb truths and lessons through print, some through pictures. Back in the days when basically nobody could read, paintings and sculptures and stained glass told the story of Jesus. And they still have a place.

You just have to be careful not to make an idol out of whatever your vehicle for learning is. I've known some folks who have gotten so fixated on the Bible that they forget that Jesus is what it's about . . . same is true of course for pictures, which are only a help, not the goal.

34 posted on 06/23/2007 8:01:15 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Silly
Have you considered writing that up as a homily or sermon? It would be a good one, elucidation of a Scripture passage, four clear points and a conclusion, and it wouldn't go over 20 minutes ("no souls are saved after the first twenty minutes.")

Preach it yourself, or pass it on to your priest or minister!

35 posted on 06/23/2007 8:06:33 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother

You’ve just made a compelling argument for literacy — in fact, for an advanced level of literacy. People can be taught to be good readers. It takes time, work and good training (and can’t rightly be done without doing it in a community).

And, as the most complex, rich, and most important book ever written, the Bible demands that we take great care in reading it. To understand most passages in the Bible, it is very useful to have a grasp of the historical, cultural, literary, philosophical, and linguistic foundations behind the text. The Bible is a life-study, one that the Bible itself commands us to engage in. Studying the Bible should, for every believer, be one of the preoccupations of our every day life.

Remember, the Bible has a special power, unlike any other books. When we read it, God uses it in a powerful way to change us — even when we don’t realize it.

And it does, in fact, paint very vivid pictures. The more deeply we enter each story, the more little details we see, and we become emotionally involved with the POV of each character.

Good thoughts on your part. Thanks for reading my post and commenting on it.


36 posted on 06/23/2007 8:14:09 AM PDT by Silly (http://www.paulklenk.us)
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To: AnAmericanMother

Actually, it is a summary of a sermon given by my pastor, Tim Keller. Visit my home page for a link to his free online sermons. He is one of the most preeminent thinkers and practical preachers of our day.

The post is called “Sermons of distinction.” See the website in my signature.


37 posted on 06/23/2007 8:16:12 AM PDT by Silly (http://www.paulklenk.us)
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To: Silly
Oh, the Bible is the inspired Word of God Almighty, no question about it. And it should be read and studied every day.

But as I said above, you have to reach people where they are. Some of the "Good News" Bibles, "Teen" Bibles and so forth are an attempt to reach poor readers. I'm very doubtful about that because the first thing they taught us back when I was a History major is "DON'T MESS WITH THE TEXT!" And a translator with a hobby horse or a particular view of the Bible can perpetuate as much error as an artist with preconceived notions of what Jesus looked like.

Absolutely folks ought to be taught to improve their reading skills. They have to be willing, and thirsty for the waters, though. Oftentimes pictures, music, or good preaching will meet them half way and bring them in.

"Taste and touch and vision, to discern Thee fail;
Faith that comes by hearing pierces through the veil.
I believe whate'er the Son of God hath told;
What the Truth hath spoken, that for Truth I hold."

- St Thomas Aquinas, Adore te devote

"Visus, tactus, gustus in te fallitur, sed auditu solo tuto creditur; credo quidquid dixit Dei Filius: nil hoc verbo Veritatis verius."

38 posted on 06/23/2007 8:22:16 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Silly
Well, I shoulda KNOWN he'd be a Presbyterian!

In absolute seriousness, nobody can preach a good hard-hitting intellectual sermon with text, doctrine, and application like a well-trained Presbyterian minister. For emotional fervor, give me a good A.M.E. preacher every time, but if you want serious nourishing meat, nothing beats a Presbyterian sermon.

I think we ought to send our priests to the Presbyterians to learn how to preach . . . to the Baptists to learn how to organize the business end of the church . . . and to the Episcopalians to get some good music (absolutely nothing else from the Piskies though, except maybe we could trade our Kumbayah Catholics and a Liturgical Dancer to be named later for the remaining orthodox in the denomination . . . < g > )

39 posted on 06/23/2007 8:29:57 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother

Very good points. Two comments, if I may:

1. Absolutely, reach people where they are. If a person can’t read (as was the case for ages), they need another way to get the Bible. This is, imho, better done by hearing it read rather than seeing it portrayed. The words, when spoken and heard, still are God’s word and have the same power.

We tend to look at Europe as a post-Christian continent. I am not so sure myself it ever was Christian. The church was basically forced on people politically, and you “were” whatever denomination you were based on where you lived geographically.

Many missionaries and church planters today approach Europe as if it knows nothing of the Bible or of God. They are wise to use this approach. it forces them to really enter the narrative of people’s lives, to get inside their own thinking and beliefs before they start to impose beliefs on them. Then they “retell” the Gospel through that person’s narrative. A very interesting approach.

2. Good point on the hobby horse. This is why studying the Bible in community is so important. A community adds depth, nuance, and completeness to the study. And it’s why stepping outside of “denominational” or sectarian views is also important. The “brokenness” of the church today — its highly sectarian nature — works against it.

When my pastor studies as passage, he not only studies it himself, directly, in the original language (he is highly skilled), but he reads as much solid commentary as he can from a broad spectrum of Christian and scholarly thought. He looks for patterns and consensus in the thinking. This is a good way to find out whether one particular view is sort of “out there”, or whether it is a respected view among the best scholars.


40 posted on 06/23/2007 8:34:48 AM PDT by Silly (http://www.paulklenk.us)
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To: AnAmericanMother
Well, I shoulda KNOWN he'd be a Presbyterian! etc.

Good thoughts! I LOL'ed at the Baptist/business part!

41 posted on 06/23/2007 8:37:31 AM PDT by Silly (http://www.paulklenk.us)
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To: Silly

They do tend to have too many committees, but they can make a dollar go further than any church I know.


42 posted on 06/23/2007 8:40:28 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother

By the way, did you already know who Tim Keller was, or did you follow the link from my site?


43 posted on 06/23/2007 8:47:39 AM PDT by Silly (http://www.paulklenk.us)
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To: Alex Murphy
The Jesus toy looks like a very hungover Walter Mathhau (look at his eyes!).

Just imagine the Sermon On The Mount he would have given!

44 posted on 06/23/2007 8:54:17 AM PDT by uglybiker (relaxing in a luxuriant cloud of quality, aromatic, pre-owned tobacco essence)
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To: Silly
I did not know him, I went to the link!

My mother was raised Presbyterian, she became an Episcopalian when she married my father. But her parents remained rock-ribbed Presbys of the old-fashioned Scottish variety (I was probably the only Episcopalian child who EVER received a copy of the Westminster Catechism as a confirmation present!) and I have spent plenty of time listening to good Presbyterian sermons!

I married a Methodist, HE became an Episcopalian, and then when that denomination went over the edge into lunacy (it had been coming for some time, it was just the final plunge) we Went Over to Rome.

We actually have one parochial vicar who can preach extremely well -- his grandmother was A.M.E. (he also has a drive-time radio show as "Father Krunk", which always makes me giggle.) Our rector is very scholarly but his homilies aren't as organized as a Presby's would be . . . there are gold nuggets in there, but you have to listen up.

45 posted on 06/23/2007 8:56:06 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother

I’m so glad! Hope you enjoyed my site as well; I’ve been putting a lot of work in to it lately. Much farther to go, but it’s finally coming together.


46 posted on 06/23/2007 8:57:53 AM PDT by Silly (http://www.paulklenk.us)
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To: Silly

These things don’t come together overnight — looking good, though.


47 posted on 06/23/2007 9:01:34 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother

And I truly encourage you to download and listen to some of these sermons. It’s not just that he’s so bright, understanding of the Gospel, scholarly, etc. (which he is). What he truly excels at is helping use the Gospel message to transform our lives.

One of the most talented and effective preachers of our day.


48 posted on 06/23/2007 9:01:43 AM PDT by Silly (http://www.paulklenk.us)
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