Mohler tackles Mormonism in online debate (Southern Baptist -vs- Mormon)

Baptist Press News ^ | Jul 3, 2007 | Jeff Robinson

[Between the Lines]

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (BP)--Mormonism is not Christianity, R. Albert Mohler Jr. argues in an online debate with a prominent Mormon author.

Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, made his first in what will be a series of posts on Beliefnet, which is sponsoring the "blog dialogue" on Mormonism. Arguing that Mormonism is a Christian religion is Orson Scott Card, an author, screenplay writer and committed layman in the Church of Latter-day Saints of Jesus Christ.

The debate between Mohler and Card, which began June 28, will continue into the near future on Beliefnet, with both writers posting periodically in a point-counterpoint format.

In his first post, Mohler makes it clear that Mormonism cannot be considered orthodox Christianity because the religion itself begins with a rejection of historic Christianity.

"Christianity is rightly defined in terms of 'traditional Christian orthodoxy,'" Mohler writes. "Thus, we have an objective standard by which to define what is and is not Christianity.

"We are not talking here about the postmodern conception of Christianity that minimizes truth. We are not talking about Christianity as a mood or as a sociological movement. We are not talking about liberal Christianity that minimizes doctrine nor about sectarian Christianity which defines the faith in terms of eccentric doctrines. We are talking about historic, traditional, Christian orthodoxy.

"Once that is made clear, the answer is inevitable. Furthermore, the answer is made easy, not only by the structure of Christian orthodoxy (a structure Mormonism denies) but by the central argument of Mormonism itself -– that the true faith was restored through Joseph Smith in the nineteenth century in America and that the entire structure of Christian orthodoxy as affirmed by the post-apostolic church is corrupt and false."

Card calls Mohler's explanation of Mormon beliefs "clear and fair-minded," but argues that Mormons are Christians even though they reject central biblical doctrines such as the Trinity. Card says such doctrines stem more from the philosophy of Plato than divine revelation. By Card's definition, a Christian is anyone who confesses Christ as the Savior of the world.

"Yes, Dr. Mohler. You and I disagree on exactly the points you listed in your essay," Card writes. "You are correct in saying that we Mormons completely reject the neoplatonic doctrines that were layered onto Christianity long after the Apostles were gone.

"And just as you would put any reference to Mormons as 'Christians' in quotation marks, we Mormons refer to those who believe as you do as 'Christians' in exactly the same way. Here's the difference. While we have no patience with creeds that owe more to Plato and other Greek philosophers than to Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, we do recognize and respect as fellow Christians anyone who confesses that Christ is the Savior of the world."

"Without doubt," Mohler acknowledges, "Mormonism borrows Christian themes, personalities, and narratives.

"Nevertheless, it rejects what orthodox Christianity affirms and it affirms what orthodox Christianity rejects. It is not Christianity in a new form or another branch of the Christian tradition. By its own teachings and claims, it rejects that very tradition," Mohler writes. --30-- The debate may be followed at http://blog.beliefnet.com/blogalogue/.

[Between the Lines]

The entries so far:

Mormonism is not Christianity

Who gets to define Christian?

The church of the devil

[newgeezer]

IBTDelete

[Bosco]

Mohler is correct. Mormonism is not a Christian faith.

It denies the deity of Jesus Christ, to start with.

[Red6]

I don’t see Mormons as Christians either. However!, Romney believes in something, and although his religion in it’s belief specifically Jesus disqualify him as a Christian, in my opinion, his values are all those of the Christian and Jewish communities. If he becomes President, he “will” be an ally to those who call themselves Christians and Jews. His actions when President will not be like those of a secular progressive who wants to shut out religion, he will not be supportive of abortion (despite the rumor mill trying to create this appearance), he will be pro family............

For those who want a conservative President in national security and economics, but who also want a flavor of Judeo-Christian values injected in domestic policies, Thompson or Romney appear to be the answers.

[Red6]

You nailed it. But, Romney would still be good for Christians, Jews, and LDS.

[Tax-chick]

I’m sure it will be an interesting discussion. They are both very impressive people.

[N3WBI3]

Well with what he is saying today he might be but given how different that tune is than the one he was singing as governor of MA I still cant vote for the spineless panderer

[GraniteStateConservative]

IBTDelete

I hope not. We're all adults and can act as adults-- or be punished individually.

[Safford]

Bosco, you could not be more wrong. Mormonism does not deny the deity of Jesus Christ. It has always affirmed the full divinity of Jesus. The Book of Mormon was published in 1830 and its Title Page expressly states that its purpose is show that “Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself to all nations.” That witness has been repeated countless times since then in Mormon scriptures and sermons.

[Revelation 911]

persecution whine bump

[Rameumptom]

>>Arguing that Mormonism is a Christian religion is Orson Scott Card,

Orson Scott Card??

Auggghh

Wikipedia, - Card identifies himself as a Democrat, which he asserts is because he is ...

Card's opinion on some things definitely do not represenbt the majority of Mormons. The debate would be much better served by another Mormon at the very least.

[Rameumptom]

Interesting that it is framed as a debate. In a debate there needs to be a winner and loser and obsevants are expected to take sides.

This book is a better treatment of the subject. It is by an Evangelical and Mormon. They thorougly discuss differences in theology and fully flesh them out but also point out similarities and common ground.

I learned more about my own faith from this book as well as more about the faith of Evangelicals. A decent open and honest discussion can lead to learning in the spirit on "both sides" of the "debate". Plus Robinson represents Mormons way better than Card. (shudder)

How Wide the Divide?: A Mormon & an Evangelical in Conversation (Paperback) by Craig L. Blomberg (Author), Stephen E. Robinson (Author)

Book Description Voted one of Christianity Today's 1998 Books of the Year! Mormons and evangelicals don't often get along very well, at least not once they begin to discuss their religious beliefs. They often set about trying to convert one another, considering the faith the other holds as defective in some critical way. Unfortunately, much of what they say about one another simply isn't true. False stereotypes abound on both sides, preventing genuine and helpful communication.Having discovered this sad state of affairs, Craig Blomberg, a committed evangelical scholar, and Stephen Robinson, a committed Mormon scholar, set out to listen to one another and to ferret out the real agreements and disagreements between them. In the conversation that develops, you will read what each believes about key theological issues--the nature and bounds of Scripture, the nature of God and deification, the person of Christ and the Trinity, and the essentials of salvation--and see how they interact with one another. What they agree on may surprise you.Though this book does not sweep differences under the rug, it is meant to help Mormons and evangelicals know and tell the truth about one another. It does not expect to end evangelistic efforts from either side. In fact, it may help to promote more effective communication because it can help to get rid of misrepresentations from both sides. In the end, however, you will be able to judge for yourself just how wide the divide between them is.

[Bosco]

Sure, a Mormon will agree that Jesus is God, or a type of God. Mormon standards for what constitutes God status is lower than that found in the Scriptures.

But will a Mormon agree that Jesus is...

the only son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

What the Nicene Creed states is that the Son is eternally preexistent, equal with the Father and the Spirit. How about John 1:1?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men."

That's what the Scriptures state, and that's what Christians believe.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

bookmark

[Little_shoe]

Orson Scott Card.. I read a lot of his books and loved Enders Game, However the rest of the books were just plain weird I guess it was his Mormon beliefs seeping out into them.

We had a Mormon come into the group of people I lived with the last two years of college. Overall he was a nice guy but just kinda quirky especially when it came to trying to convert people to his religion. He started putting up Mormon posters in the dorm and giving out free t-shirts. I though that was trying force it down our throats.

[blasater1960]

You guys better be careful....you can get banned for debating Mormonism....It seems to be a “sacred cow” around here.

[Bosco]

There really isn’t much to debate. Mormons are welcome to believe what they believe, but that belief system isn’t based on the non-negotiable tenets found in the Scriptures. It’s in conflict with what is found in the Scriptures.

[WriteOn]

yeah, like Dr. Steve. But he didn’t just debate Mormons, he sort of deflated Mormons. :) I think he knew just about every skeleton in that closet.

[WriteOn]

The idea that orthodox Christian understanding is an accretion layered onto the Gospels and the truth wasn’t correctly revealed until the 19th century is a bit much. Kind of reminds one of Muhammad’s claims.

[Safford]

“That’s what the Scriptures state, and that’s what Christians believe.”

Thus, Mormons are Christians. Latter-day Saints accept and believe John 1:1. If you challenge that acceptance and belief, please provide an authoritative source that suggests otherwise. Latter-day Saints do not, however, feel compelled to accept extra-Biblical creeds based on Greek philosophy. Are you suggesting that one cannot be saved without recitation or acceptance of the Nicene Creed? If so, what about those souls who accepted Christ prior to 325 A.D. when the Creed was formulated? Are we saved by catechism or the blood of Jesus?

[sevenbak]

Mohler is correct. Mormonism is not a Christian faith. It denies the deity of Jesus Christ, to start with.

Intestine. Where do you get such a claim? I am Mormon and I have never heard of such a thing!

[sevenbak]

But will a Mormon agree that Jesus is...

the only son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,YES

God from God, Light from Light,YES

true God from true God,YES

begotten, not made,YES

of one being with the Father. No

Through him all things were made.YES

For us and for our salvationYES

he came down from heaven:YES

by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,YES

and was made man.YES

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;YES

he suffered death and was buried.YES

On the third day he rose againYES

in accordance with the Scriptures;YES

he ascended into heavenYES

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.YES

He will come again in gloryYES

to judge the living and the dead,YES

and his kingdom will have no end.YES

[Calm_Cool_and_Elected]

ping for later read.

CC&E

[adiaireton8]

This is why Mohler loses the debate with Card.

[Burkean]

I don’t mind Mohler saying Mormons are not Orthodox Christians, but I agree with Card that the term Christian should be available to anyone who professes to believe in Christ as Savior of the World, as that is the foundation of Christ’s teaching.

Christian™ is not a trademarked term that only the Orthodox can lay claim to. There is a huge difference between what Orthodox and Reform Jews believe, but you don’t see them get in pi$$ing mathches over who can call themselves a Jew.

[Bosco]

It's an interesting point that you bring up, Burkean.

It does come back to the question that Jesus asked his disciples:

"When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"

They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"

And that is the question that Jesus poses to every man and woman on the earth.

Christians believe that Jesus is both God and man. It's called a "hypostatic union" and the apostle Paul wrote about it in Philippians 2: 6,7.

"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."

In order for Jesus to pay for mankind's sin, He needed to be both God and man. He needed to be God (and Infinite Being), so that He could receive the Father's infinite wrath for a finite number of sins in a finite amount of time.

Jesus needed to be fully human so that he could identify with us, as well as be a worthy substitute in our place.

What will happen is that groups will minimize or exaggerate one aspect of Jesus' nature. Mormons may say that Jesus is God, but what kind of God is that? Is Jesus a created being or is He the Second Person of the Godhead, equal with the Father and the Spirit? Christians say the latter.

I'll get into a pissing match with anyone who claims to be a Christian but doesn't hold to the central tenets of Who Jesus is. It's called Do some research and find out what Mormons believe. I have, and it's not in agreement with what's found in the Old and New Testaments.

Jesus came to pay for sin, and if He wasn't fully God and fully human, then He didn't complete His mission. You and I are dead in our trespasses and sins.

As Paul wrote to Timothy:

"In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry."

That's why I will contend with Mormons (or anyone) about who Jesus is.

[Burkean]

I’m not really interested in approaching it from an direction of interpreting scripture and/or tradition, at least not in this forum. I’m more interested in the societal use of a word to describe itself.

I would find it a better use of the term if those who wanted to be exclusive in who can use the word Christian to describe their beliefs—use the term Orthodox Christian, or Protestant Christian or something. It just seems antithetical to Christ’s teaching to me.

[Between the Lines]

Card's opinion on some things definitely do not represent the majority of Mormons. The debate would be much better served by another Mormon at the very least.

Mormon Defender Skirts Christian Question; Instead Calls for Unity

You were right. Card even says in his reply that some Mormons consider him an outsider.

I am Southern Baptist so I did not know Card's credentials. I thought this was a debate between theologians. Had I known this before, I would never have posted this thread. My apologies.