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"Insulting God"
Early Church Fathers ^ | John Chrysostom

Posted on 07/06/2007 6:51:34 AM PDT by xzins

Homily I.

These things are said to a master in behalf of a servant. Immediately at the outset, he has pulled down his spirit, and not suffered him to be ashamed, he has quenched his anger; calling himself a prisoner, he strikes him with compunction, and makes him collect himself, and makes it appear that present things are nothing. For if a chain for Christ's sake is not a shame but a boast, much more is slavery not to be considered a reproach. And this he says, not exalting himself, but for a good purpose doing this, showing thence that he was worthy of credit; and this he does not for his own sake, but that he may more readily obtain the favor. As if he had said, "It is on your account that I am invested with this chain." As he also has said elsewhere, there indeed showing his concern, but here his trustworthiness.

Nothing is greater than this boast, to be called "the stigmatized of Christ." "For I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus." (Gal. vi. 17.)

"The prisoner of the Lord." For he had been bound on His account. Who would not be struck with awe, who would not be humbled when he hears of the chains of Christ? Who would not be ready to give up even his own life, much less one domestic?

"And Timothy our brother."

He joins another also with himself, that he, being entreated by many, may the more readily yield and grant the favor.

"Unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellow-laborer."

If "beloved," then his confidence is not boldness nor forwardness, but a proof of much affection. If a "fellow-laborer," then not only may he be instructed in such a matter, but he ought to acknowledge it as a favor. For he is gratifying himself, he is building up the same work. So that apart from any request, he says, thou hast another necessity for granting the favor. For if he is profitable to the Gospel, and thou art anxious to promote the Gospel, then oughtest thou not to be entreated, but to entreat.

Ver. 2. "And to our beloved Apphia."

It seems to me that she was his partner in life. Observe the humility of Paul; he both joins Timothy with him in his request, and asks not only the husband, but the wife also, and some one else, perhaps a friend.

"And Archippus," he says, "our fellow-soldier."

Not wishing to effect such things by command, and not taking it ill, if he did not immediately comply with his request; but he begs them to do what a stranger might have done to aid his request. For not only the being requested by many, but the petition being urged to many, contributes to its being granted. And on this account he says, "And Archippus our fellow-soldier." If thou art a fellow-soldier, thou oughtest also to take a concern in these things. But this is the Archippus, about whom he says in his Epistle to the Colossians, "Say to Archippus, Take heed to the ministry which thou hast received in the Lord, that thou fulfill it." (Col. iv. 17.) It seems to me too, that he, whom he joins with him in this request, was also one of the Clergy. And he calls him his fellow-soldier, that he may by all means cooperate with him.

"And to the Church in thy house."

Here he has not omitted even the slaves. For he knew that often even the words of slaves have power to overthrow their master; and more especially when his request was in behalf of a slave. And perhaps it was they particularly who exasperated him. He does not suffer them therefore to fall into envy, having honored them by including them in a salutation with their masters. And neither does he allow the master to take offense. For if he had made mention of them by name, perhaps he would have been angry. And if he had not mentioned them at all, he might have been displeased. Observe therefore how prudently he has found a way by his manner of mentioning them, both to honor them by his mention of them, and not to wound him. For the name of the "Church" does not suffer masters to be angry, even though they are reckoned together with their servants. For the Church knows not the distinction of master and servant. By good actions and by sins she defines the one and the other. If then it is a Church, be not displeased that thy slave is saluted with thee. "For in Christ Jesus there is neither bond nor free." (Gal. iii. 28.)

"Grace to you, and peace."

By mentioning "grace," he brings his own sins to his remembrance. Consider, he says, how great things God has pardoned in thee, how by grace thou art saved. Imitate thy Lord. And he prays for "peace" to him; and naturally: for it comes then when we imitate Him, then grace abides. Since even that servant who was unmerciful to his fellow-servants, until he demanded the hundred pence, had the grace of his master abiding on him. But when he made that demand, it was taken from him, and he was delivered to the tormentors.

Moral. Considering these things, then, let us also be merciful and forgiving towards those who have trespassed against us. The offenses against us here are a hundred pence, but those from us against God are ten thousand talents. But you know that offenses are also judged by the quality of the persons: for instance, he who has insulted a private person has done wrong, but not so much as he who has insulted a magistrate, and he who has offended a greater magistrate offends in a higher degree, and he who offends an inferior one in a lower degree; but he who insults the king offends much more. The injury indeed is the same, but it becomes greater by the excellence of the person. And if he who insults a king receives intolerable punishment, on account of the superiority of the person; for how many talents will he be answerable who insults God? so that even if we should commit the same offenses against God, that we do against men, even so it is not an equal thing: but as great as is the difference between God and men, so great is that between the offenses against Him and them.

But now I find also that the offenses exceed, not only in that they become great by the eminence of the person, but by their very nature. And it is a horrible saying that I am about to utter, and truly awful, but it is necessary to be said, that it may even so shake our minds and strike them with terror, showing that we fear men much more than God, and we honor men much more than God. For consider, he that commits adultery knows that God sees him, yet he disregards Him; but if a man see him, he restrains his lust. Does not such a one not only honor men above God, not only insult God, but, which is even much more dreadful, whilst he fears them, despise Him? For if he sees them, he restrains the flame of lust, but rather what flame? it is not a flame, but a willfulness. For if indeed it was not lawful to have intercourse with a woman, the matter perhaps would be a flame, but now it is insult and wantonness. For if he should see men, he desists from his mad passion, but for the longsuffering of God he has less regard. Again, another who steals, is conscious that he is committing robbery, and endeavors to deceive men, and defends himself against those who accuse him, and clothes his apology with a fair show; but though he cannot thus prevail with God, he does not regard Him, nor stand in awe of Him, nor honor Him. And if the king indeed commands us to abstain from other men's goods, or even to give away our own, all readily contribute, but when God commands not to rob, not to gather other men's goods, we do not forbear.

Do you see then that we honor men more than God? It is a sad and grievous saying, a heavy charge. But show that it is grievous; flee from the fact! But if you fear not the fact, how can I believe you when you say, We fear your words, you lay a burden on us! It is you that by the deed lay a burden on yourselves, and not our words. And if I but name the words of which you do the deeds, you are offended. And is not this absurd?

May the thing spoken by me prove false! I would rather myself in That Day bear the imputation of ill language, as having vainly and causelessly reproached you, than see you accused of such things.

But not only do you honor men more than God, but you compel others to do so likewise. Many have thus compelled their domestics and slaves. Some have drawn them into marriage against their will, and others have forced them to minister to disgraceful services, to infamous love, to acts of rapine, and fraud, and violence: so that the accusation is twofold, and neither can they obtain pardon upon the plea of necessity. For if you yourself do wrong things unwillingly, and on account of the command of the ruler, not even so is it by any means a sufficient excuse: but the offense becomes heavier, when you compel them also to fall into the same sins. For what pardon can there be any more for such an one?

These things I have said, not from a wish to condemn you, but to show in how many things we are debtors to God. For if by honoring men even equally with God, we insult God, how much more, when we honor men above Him? But if those offenses that are committed against men are shown to be much greater against God; how much more when the actual offense is greater and more grievous in its own quality.

Let any one examine himself, and he will see that he does everything on account of men. Exceedingly blessed we should be, if we did as many things for the sake of God, as we do for the sake of men, and of the opinion of men, and for the dread or the respect of men. If then we have so many things to answer for, we ought with all alacrity to forgive those who injure us, who defraud us, and not to bear malice. For there is a way to the forgiveness of our sins that needs no labors, nor expense of wealth, nor any other things, but merely our own choice. We have no need to set out upon our travels, nor go beyond the boundaries of our country, nor submit to dangers and toils, but only to will.

What excuse, tell me, shall we have in things that appear difficult, when we do not do even a light thing, attended too with so much gain and so much benefit, and no trouble? Canst thou not despise wealth? Canst thou not spend thy substance on the needy? Canst thou not will anything that is good? Canst thou not forgive him that has injured thee? For if thou hadst not so many things to answer for, and God had only commanded thee to forgive, oughtest thou not to do it? But now having so many things to answer for, dost thou not forgive? and that too, knowing that thou art required to do it on account of things which thou hast from Him? If indeed we go to our debtor, he knowing it, receives us courteously, and shows us honor, and pays us every attention in a liberal way; and that though he is not paying off his debt, but because he wishes to render us merciful in our demand of payment: and thou, who owest so much to God, and art commanded to forgive that thou mayest receive in return, dost not thou forgive? And wherefore not, I beseech you? Woe is me! How much of goodness do we receive, and what wickedness do we show in return! What sleepiness! what indolence! How easy a thing is virtue, attended too with much advantage; and how laborious a thing is vice! But we, flying from that which is so light, pursue that which is heavier than lead.

Here there is no need of bodily strength, nor of wealth, nor possessions, nor of power, nor of friendship, nor of any other thing; but it is sufficient only to will, and all is accomplished. Hath some one grieved thee, and insulted thee, and mocked thee? But consider, how often thou hast done such things to others, and even to the Lord Himself; and forbear, and forgive him it. Consider that thou sayest, "Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors." (Matt. vi. 13.) Consider, that if thou dost not forgive, thou wilt not be able to say this with confidence: but if thou forgivest, thou demandest the matter as a debt, not by reason of the nature of the thing, but on account of the lovingkindness of Him that hath granted it. And wherein is it equal, that one who forgives his fellow-servants should receive remission of the sins committed against the Lord? but nevertheless we do receive such great lovingkindness, because He is rich in mercy and pity.

And that I may show that even without these things, and without the remission, thou art a gainer by forgiving, consider how many friends such a person has, how the praises of such an one are everywhere sounded by men who go about saying, "This is a good man, he is easily reconciled, he knows not to bear malice, he is no sooner stricken than he is healed." When such an one falls into any misfortune, who will not pity him? when he has offended, who will not pardon him? When he asks a favor of others, who will not grant it to him? Who will not be willing to be the friend and servant of so good a soul? Yea, I entreat you, let us do all things for Him, not to our friends, not to our relations only, but even to our domestics. For He says, "Forbearing threatening, knowing that your Master also is in heaven." (Eph. vi. 9.)

If we forgive our neighbors their trespasses, ours will be forgiven to us, if we bestow alms, if we be humble. For this also taketh away sins. For if the publican, only for saying, "God be merciful to me a sinner" (Luke xviii. 13), went down justified, much more we also, if we be humble and contrite, shall be able to obtain abundant lovingkindness. If we confess our own sins and condemn ourselves, we shall be cleansed from the most of our defilement. For there are many ways that purify. Let us therefore in every way war against the devil. I have said nothing difficult, nothing burdensome. Forgive him that has injured thee, have pity on the needy, humble thy soul, and though thou be a grievous sinner, thou wilt be able to obtain the kingdom, by these means purging off thy sins themselves, and wiping off their stain. And God grant that we all, having purified ourselves here by confession from all the filth of our sins, may there obtain the blessings promised in Christ Jesus our Lord,


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: affront; chrysostom; god; insult

1 posted on 07/06/2007 6:51:36 AM PDT by xzins
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To: All
Does not such a one not only honor men above God, not only insult God, but, which is even much more dreadful, whilst he fears them, despise Him?
2 posted on 07/06/2007 6:52:49 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg; ears_to_hear; P-Marlowe; Frumanchu; blue-duncan; jude24; ...

ping


3 posted on 07/06/2007 8:03:43 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins

How could God get insulted, when He created those same people that insult Him, knowing what they are going to do?


4 posted on 07/06/2007 8:09:21 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: stuartcr
If we are to retain free-will, we must think of God as like the father of the prodigal son, who gave him his inheritance knowing he was capable of abusing it. Free-will is a paradox. He is all-knowing and all-powerful , but he is all-loving. In reading this parable, however, we must remember that the Father had another, always faithful son and we don’t have his reply to the Father. The best endings are no endings at all.
5 posted on 07/06/2007 8:31:19 AM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: stuartcr

Free will exists.


6 posted on 07/06/2007 8:40:48 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins; Gamecock; Frumanchu; ears_to_hear; blue-duncan; HarleyD; Alex Murphy
I like the general thrust of Chrysostom here -- that men don't mind doing wrong in front of the eyes of God, but they're ashamed to do it in front of other men which implies they fear and honor men over God.

But I'm missing the music to his concluding lyrics which seem to ring of a works-based salvation...

"...if we bestow alms, if we be humble. For this also taketh away sins...

if we be humble and contrite, shall be able to obtain abundant lovingkindness...

If we confess our own sins and condemn ourselves, we shall be cleansed from the most of our defilement. For there are many ways that purify.

...thou wilt be able to obtain the kingdom, by these means purging off thy sins themselves, and wiping off their stain...

And God grant that we all, having purified ourselves here by confession..."

Do we "purify ourselves" by our confessions? By giving alms? By helping the poor? By forgiving others? By our humility and contrition?

Or did Christ accomplish this once for all the sins of His flock by mercy alone?

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." -- Hebrews 10:10-14

I think the problem is some philosophies teach that we sanctify ourselves. But the correct perspective must always be the Holy Spirit is the agent for our sanctification. It is His function to correctly align our hearts to God's will and righteous intent for our lives, and I don't find that anywhere in this piece.

7 posted on 07/06/2007 8:52:14 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: RobbyS; xzins

But if God cannot be wrong, and He knows what we are going to do before He even creates us, how can we do anything other than what He knows we will do?


8 posted on 07/06/2007 8:56:18 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

I, too, like the thrust about ignoring God but having concern for the opinions of humans.

I think that there is a difference in obtaining sanctification via works, and having our sanctification confirmed by our works. It’s similar, I would think, to the perseverence of the saints in an era that hadn’t yet spelled that out.

Also, Chrysostom was writing in about 400, so there is some theology present which at that time which we’d both disagree with.


9 posted on 07/06/2007 9:00:30 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: stuartcr; xzins
Do you think God was "unhappy" with Christ's pain and suffering at the crucifixion?

And yet Christ was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world by the direct purpose and intent of God in order to pay for the sins of His children. Read Isaiah 53 --

"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin..." -- Isiah 53L10

If you read all Scripture with Christ's resurrection as its focal point and the explicit purpose to all history, then life becomes a lot clearer.

10 posted on 07/06/2007 9:03:03 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: stuartcr; RobbyS

None of that means that you don’t have free will.

An addicted alcoholic can be predicted to take another drink. That doesn’t mean that he has to.

On the other hand, God is the activating cause of everything.


11 posted on 07/06/2007 9:03:14 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; stuartcr; RobbyS; Gamecock; Frumanchu; ears_to_hear; blue-duncan; HarleyD; ...

I also think that Belshazzar insulted God by desecrating the temple ware.

It’s pretty clear that Ahaziah insulted God by consulting the Baal-zebub of Ekron.

Ananias & Saphira insulted God by lying about their donation.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


12 posted on 07/06/2007 9:07:52 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins
But you know that offenses are also judged by the quality of the persons: for instance, he who has insulted a private person has done wrong, but not so much as he who has insulted a magistrate, and he who has offended a greater magistrate offends in a higher degree, and he who offends an inferior one in a lower degree; but he who insults the king offends much more. The injury indeed is the same, but it becomes greater by the excellence of the person. And if he who insults a king receives intolerable punishment, on account of the superiority of the person; for how many talents will he be answerable who insults God?

So, I should feel worse about insulting Hildebeast than I do because she's a "magistrate" and soon-to-be "king", and it's totally acceptable and reasonable for her to retaliate with intolerable punishment?

13 posted on 07/06/2007 9:08:02 AM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
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To: xzins

Isn’t that prediction made by a man, not God? If God is the activating cause of everything, and He knows what you will do, how is there real free-will? Wouldn’t God knowing what you are going to do, pre-empt your ability to do otherwise, regardless of what you may think you are going to do?


14 posted on 07/06/2007 9:08:40 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: stuartcr

God’s a sensitive fellow because he had a poor relationship (a non-existent one) with his parents. It’s an offshoot of his abandonment issues.


15 posted on 07/06/2007 9:09:54 AM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

I have no idea what God thought about that. Didn’t He know that the crucifixion was going to happen, even before Christ was born? If He did know it was going to happen, and He cannot be wrong, then how could it NOT have happened?


16 posted on 07/06/2007 9:11:21 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: GraniteStateConservative

I do think it is inappropriate to be rude to dignitaries; not so much for their “person” but for their office. The bible offers support to that notion in Jude.

On the other hand, injustice is contrary to God’s will, so Hillary will answer.


17 posted on 07/06/2007 9:13:46 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: stuartcr; xzins
But if God cannot be wrong, and He knows what we are going to do before He even creates us, how can we do anything other than what He knows we will do?

The fact that the answer to your question is difficult to understand does not negate the reality of those presuppositions.

Whatever is, is as God wills, ultimately. But between our daily lives and God's "ultimately," there's a lot of living and striving and work to be done.

All as God wills.

It's really Satan who tells us we're autonomous. He wants us to believe we have free will so we can do his will. If we believe that God alone controls our lives and even Satan's life, then we can better resist him.

"And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left." -- Isaiah 30:21

18 posted on 07/06/2007 9:14:55 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Wasn’t satan created by God? Didn’t God also know what satan was going to become and what he was going to do?


19 posted on 07/06/2007 9:18:43 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: xzins
I do think it is inappropriate to be rude to dignitaries; not so much for their “person” but for their office. The bible offers support to that notion in Jude.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

20 posted on 07/06/2007 9:19:29 AM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; stuartcr
He wants us to believe we have free will so we can do his will.

Ohh.....(shoot)...yes and no. (We do have free will.)

Wish you'd quit that, though. Read 1 Ki 22....fascinating story.

:>)

21 posted on 07/06/2007 9:21:07 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: stuartcr
Not only did God "know" the crucifixion was going to happen, God "willed" it would happen in order to pay for the sins of His flock.

Read Isaiah 53 -- "...Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him..."

22 posted on 07/06/2007 9:21:27 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: stuartcr

Not only did God create Satan, he chose to not destroy him utterly after Satan tried to kill God and take his job and gave Satan enormous power over his perfect creation and over 1/3 of God’s created angels and gave him his own kingdom as “punishment.”


23 posted on 07/06/2007 9:23:01 AM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
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To: GraniteStateConservative

And I agree.

But, their emissary to the king (wasn’t it Franklin?) wasn’t rude to George at all. On the contrary, he was very respectful....just in disagreement.


24 posted on 07/06/2007 9:23:10 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: stuartcr

Yes. Yes. Yes.


25 posted on 07/06/2007 9:23:39 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: xzins

A tyrant and a despot? That’s insulting language.


26 posted on 07/06/2007 9:24:27 AM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Yes, that is why I believe everything that happens, is caused/planned by God...especially if one believes He has a plan for each of us.


27 posted on 07/06/2007 9:25:38 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: GraniteStateConservative

I don’t think so. Those are descriptive words.


28 posted on 07/06/2007 9:30:03 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins
Wish you'd quit that, though.

lol. Quit what?

"I frankly confess that, for myself, even if it could be, I should not want 'free-will' to be given me, nor anything to be left in my own hands to enable me to endeavour after salvation; not merely because in face of so many dangers, and adversities, and assaults of devils, I could not stand my ground and hold fast my 'free-will' (for one devil is stronger than all men, and on these terms no man could be saved) ; but because, even were there no dangers, adversities, or devils, I should still be forced to labour with no guarantee of success, and to beat my fists at the air. If I lived and worked to all eternity, my conscience would never reach comfortable certainty as to how much it must do to satisfy God, Whatever work I had done, there would still be a nagging doubt' as to whether it pleased God, or whether He required something more. The experience of all who seek righteousness by works proves that; and I learned it well enough myself over a period of many years, to my own great hurt. But now that God has taken my salvation out of the control of my own will, and put it under the control of His, and promised to save me, not according to my working or running, but according to His own grace and mercy, I have the comfort¬able certainty that He is faithful and will not lie to me, and that He is also great and powerful, so that no devils or opposition can break Him or pluck me from Him. `No one,´ He says, `shall pluck them out of my hand, because my Father which gave them me is greater than all´ (John 10.28-29). Thus it is that, if not all, yet some, indeed many, are saved; whereas, by the power of ´free-will´ none at all could be saved, but every one of us would perish.

"Furthermore, I have the comfortable certainty that I please God, not by reason of the merit of my works, but by reason of His merciful favour promised to me; so that, if I work too little, or badly, He does not impute it to me, but with fatherly compassion pardons me and makes me better. This is the glorying of all the saints in their God." -- Martin Luther, "Bondage of the Will" -- (xviii) Of the comfort of knowing that salvation does not depend on free-will' (783)


29 posted on 07/06/2007 9:31:53 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: xzins

Call Hillary a despot and tyrant and see if she’s insulted (and make sure your FBI files are clean).


30 posted on 07/06/2007 9:41:12 AM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
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To: GraniteStateConservative

Different time; different place.

If I recall correctly, weren’t there both legal and illegal tyrants from the Greek era. And I think Cincinnatus was a dictator, and that legally. My memory’s fuzzy on my history here, but I believe that training in the classics in Revolutionary Days involved in depth review of Greek & Roman eras. In fact, Washington was seen as the “new Cincinnatus” because he reliquished his power. I’m a native of Cincinnati, Ohio, and I know the Washington story well, and the reason Cincinnati, originally Fort Washington, got its name.


31 posted on 07/06/2007 10:53:32 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian

Ping to #31


32 posted on 07/06/2007 11:17:21 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: stuartcr

God does not “know” the way we do. We know by perceiving the truth that is presented to us by the senses. In our faith, only Jesus knew things both humanly and divinely. Even human knowledge is a kind of mystery; divine knowledge is totally so.


33 posted on 07/06/2007 12:10:31 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS

I cannot speak on why God does things, or how He knows things.


34 posted on 07/06/2007 12:13:10 PM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: stuartcr

Precisely.


35 posted on 07/06/2007 12:15:03 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS

Then why did you say God does not “know” the way we do? How do you KNOW this?


36 posted on 07/06/2007 12:17:54 PM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: xzins

“The injury indeed is the same, but it becomes greater by the excellence of the person. And if he who insults a king receives intolerable punishment, on account of the superiority of the person”

Not the excellence or the superiority of the person; it’s the office that commands respect.

How can the dead insult the Living One? You first have to have a relationship with someone in order to insult them.


37 posted on 07/06/2007 12:20:08 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan

See Belshazzar and Ahaziah.

Granted that God cannot be insulted, but that doesn’t mean He isn’t miffed at those who try.


38 posted on 07/06/2007 12:34:07 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: stuartcr

Because that is a negative. We, whatever we are, are NOT God. He is infinite, not finite. We take in discrete pits of information and process them. He certainly does not. To give a very imperfect analogy, Beethoven “knew” his compositions before he played them or set them on paper. Only Beethoven really knew his music. To the extent that we create, we are using a God-like power. We ourselves are his creation, but we are not notes on the page, we are the music itself.


39 posted on 07/06/2007 12:46:02 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: xzins

“See Belshazzar and Ahaziah.”

Ahaziah was a king of Judah. He had a relationship with God because of his lineage and office. Belshazzar did not not insult but violated the cherem and blasphemed, Dan. 5:4, “They drank wine, and praised the gods of gold, and of silver, of brass, of iron, of wood, and of stone”, much like the Pharisees did in ascribing to Satan the healing and deliverance of the Holy Spirit.

What is interesting in the 10 Commandments only God and parents are commanded to be honored.


40 posted on 07/06/2007 12:58:20 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan

Yes, but don’t you think that Belshazzar had some inkling of what he was doing? After all, he had the knowledge to ask for the templeware. He must have known something.....not much, because his grandmother(?) had to inform him regarding Daniel.

In Belshazzar’s mind he was exalting his power by dissing some God of some people they’d conquered years before. His pride, but also disrespect.


41 posted on 07/06/2007 4:25:24 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Frumanchu; ears_to_hear; blue-duncan; Alex Murphy
Free will exists.

I think this is a wonderful article by Chrysostom. I would suggest that it is impossible for man NOT to insult God. We do so just about every day in not following through on living our lives according to the commandments. But we don't live by the law, we live by grace. The grace and mercy of God is that He has placed all of these insults on our Lord Jesus. Nevertheless, it's always a blessings to the saints to be constantly reminded of what we owe our Lord Jesus. After all, didn't God "foreknew" that we would insult Him next week by failing in doing what He has asked?

The "free will" you proclaim is simply the "freedom" of our nature to do that what is evil. I wouldn't call this "free will". I would call this natural instincts. The desires that we have to wish to do good is a reflection of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We have a choice ONCE the Son has set us free. Our choices is directed and set by God to help us to grow and flurish, not to degenerate into our own nature.

42 posted on 07/08/2007 6:01:17 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; xzins; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Frumanchu; ears_to_hear; Alex Murphy

“I would suggest that it is impossible for man NOT to insult God.”

We are defining a term down. It is impossible for a believer to treat God contemptuously or rudely. They are intentional actions of insolence. The Holy Spirit would not allow that. We may be angry with God or upset with Him but not contemptuous. We may have lapses of faith or doubt but not to treat God with insolence. That attitude belies belief in or the knowledge of God.

The unbeliever can’t insult God for there is no relationship in which to address God or treat Him with indifference. They are dead.


43 posted on 07/08/2007 6:15:18 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; HarleyD

It is probably impossible to insult God. One would have to have such standing with God that such a thing would be possible. God is so far above us that He cannot be insulted by us.

On the other hand, humans can TRY to insult God. God gets hacked off at the effort because it’s insolent and disrespectful.


44 posted on 07/08/2007 6:22:39 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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