Posted on 07/07/2007 7:48:37 PM PDT by tnarg
Mark it down as biblical truth: There is no pre-tribulation rapture.
However, untold thousands believe in the "secret rapture of the church" prior to the tribulation period. This is because untold thousands don't want to have to think of suffering through a tribulation time frame. The late Corrie ten Boom called this pre-trib rapture teaching the "American doctrine." Go figure.
The belief in a secret rapture of believers before the tribulation is also because of a best-seller, "The Late, Great Planet Earth," by Hal Lindsey which was set loose in the l960s. It has been a paperback aggressively pushed by practically every evangelical / fundamentalist engine going.
Theologians, videos, films and preachers bolster up this myth with their earnest preachings and teachings.
Yet this is nothing but a myth, accented as much by certain theologically conservative Protestant segments similar unto the Roman Catholic underlining of the immaculate conception of Mary. Nevertheless, if there is no biblical support for such a Mariology teaching, it is bogus. Likewise, the pre-tribulation rapture teaching is bogus.
The pre-trib rapture concept was manufactured in the 1800s in an 18 year old Plymouth Brethren girl's dream, told to her Pastor, John Darby, and then relayed to C. I. Scofield who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture notion as a footnote in his popular Bible, hence the spread of the myth.
However, just the opposite is biblical truth. In Matthew 24:29-3l, for instance, the rapture ("gathering together") is placed in the same time frame as the open second coming of Jesus Christ. And all of this is "after the tribulation" (verse 29). That is it in a nutshell!
Yet pre-tribulation rapturists sidestep this clear passage for more oblique passages. The latter are twisted and turned in order to fit into the "American doctrine." Yet such twisting is not sound exegesis. And for biblically-riveted evangelicals and fundamentalists to commit this drastic error is bordering on the horrific.
All other passages in Scripture relating to the "gathering together unto Him" must refer back to the literal time line provided by Jesus in Matthew 24.
One must not use a symbolic passage in the Book of Revelation or any other symbolically-based section of the Bible by which to draw a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.
Further, one must not take words of the apostle Paul so as to insert them opportunistically into a conjured pre-tribulation string of Scripture references. Yet this has been done ad infinitum.
Instead, Jesus' literalism of Matthew 24 must be used as the benchmark for all other "gathering together" themes of Scripture.
One starts with literalism and moves into symbolism when seeking to understand Scripture; it is not the other way around.
During the 1970s and 1980s there was much written and preached about a pre-tribulation rapture. This has wound down some in the last decade or so. Why?
Today, with the world situation being what it is, there is not that much risk-taking in preaching dogmatically the pre-tribulation rapture. Why?
Is it because there are many who are beginning to question its validity? Is it because the world state is so uncertain that to go out on a limb with a false hope may ricochet?
One wonders, with world events progressively becoming more and more anti-Christian, why the pre-tribulation rapture persons are not celebrating each dawn as the day when Jesus may return to earth.
Such is not the phenomenon on a large scale. Furthermore, it may be because the next generation has not bought into this notion.
In any case, it is a myth, a legend of conservative Protestantism's own conjuring and has no base in the Holy Scriptures.
Yet these very Protestants are the ones who ardently point out the myths of Catholicism while holding to some of their own myths. Both segments of Christendom need to do some serious housecleaning of manufactured legends in order to return to the simple Bible truths; otherwise, the church suffers from severe lack of knowledge.
What is so frightening about holding to a pre-tribulation rapture? It is more than mere academic quibbling. Holding to such a notion is drastically weakening the church worldwide.
The church should be preparing for spiritual battle against the most evil forces arrayed by hell.
Instead, the church is languishing with a false hope. This is all orchestrated by the demonic powers in order to eventuate in a limp army of believers. And to see that through in this age of laxity in religion does not take much on the part of the dark powers. In addition, the apostate segment of religion is doing its fair share of blackening truth.
Does it take much intelligence to realize that there are awesomely wretched days yet ahead for the righteous remnant?
Those who are not strong will drop--fall away, as biblically predicted. They will be too numerous to contemplate. But for those who are truly into carrying the daily cross there will be nothing able to thwart their zeal for Christ.
Already the remnant is being strengthened by the Spirit of light. He is gathering His own together in the power of the resurrection and the might of the revealed Word. There numbers are few; but their ardor before the Father is lovingly honored.
Set your vision upon the difficulties yet to be. They are but the trials permitted by the coming Christ.
At the close of the tribulation period, then there will be the gathering together of the believers from the four corners of the earth. They will greet Jesus in the clouds as He descends through space, having left the right hand of the Father in heaven.
The gathering together ("rapture") and the second advent then will be realized as one and the same event occurring at the end of the tribulation time frame. Jesus' declaration in Matthew 24:29-3l states it clearly.
We know the tribe of Aser was present when the Lord was born (Lk.2:36)
So, you have four tribes mentioned in the New Testament.
The other 8 are known to God and are considered Jews since Judah is the leading tribe.
All of the tribes are represented again in the Millennial reign (Ezek.48)
In fact, James wrote his epistle to the '12 tribes', and I think the Apostle James might have had little bit more knowledge then you do on their existance.
No, the crucial issue in Dispensationalism is not about believing that the Lord has given us various periods in salvation in which God governered the world.
The essential of Dispensationalism is understanding the difference between Israel and the Church.
The Church cannot be here for Jacobs trouble.
The Church is in heaven getting judged (1Cor.3, 2Cor.5:10, Rom.14:10) and comes back with the Lord in Rev.19 at the end of the Tribulation.
Trying to compare the destruction of the Temple in the 1st century to what Danial predicted is simply nonsense.
The Tribulation is spoken of the worst times in human history (Matt.24:21), and that hasn't happened yet and it certanily didn't happen in the 1st century!
The problem with the false dispensationalists/non-dispensationalists is that you don't believe what the Bible actually says.
No one has any burning desire to prove you wrong since what you are saying is irrelevant to anything dealing with the 12 tribes of Israel.
God knows who and where they are now and they will be restored by tribe in the future. (Rev.7, Ezek.48)
Are you denying that?
That is the final week of Daniel's 70th week and it is for Israel (all 12 tribes) and they will be represented by 12,000 evangalists from each tribe (Rev.7).
To do that you must understand the split in the houses of Israel and Judah to fully understand the prophecies concerning each of them.
The Church cannot be here for Jacobs trouble.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
All His children will be here, on earth.
The Church is in heaven getting judged (1Cor.3, 2Cor.5:10, Rom.14:10) and comes back with the Lord in Rev.19 at the end of the Tribulation.
Those scriptures do not mention anyone being judged in heaven. There, of course, will be a judgment and it is spoken of in Rev. 20:12:
And I saw the dead, small and great stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
There is also a judgment before the "great white throne judgement" which happens at the end of the millennium. That is the one at the beginning of the millennium, when Christ judges who to make war with (Rev.19:11). Both of those judgements take place here, on earth.
You stated that Rev.19 tells us that the Church comes back with Christ after the tribulation. The church spoken of there is, Rev.19:14:
And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
As well as building an army of believers here He has an army in heaven. Those that have preceeded us will be coming back. Those are the "armies which were in heaven".
The Tribulation is spoken of the worst times in human history (Matt.24:21), and that hasn't happened yet and it certainly didn't happen in the 1st century!
I agree with that completely.
To do that you must understand the split in the houses of Israel and Judah to fully understand the prophecies concerning each of them.
No, the Church is the combination of both Jew (all 12 tribes) and Gentiles into one Body (Gal.3:28)
It is not necessary to be worried about what happened to the tribes of Israel that are not mentioned specifically in the New Testament until Rev.7.
Irrelevant??? You are being given a great history lesson so please take advantage of it. I don't know if you will ever find anyone that knows more about the 12 tribes than Diego.
God knows who and where they are now and they will be restored by tribe in the future. (Rev.7, Ezek.48)
Of course God knows and He is awakening others to that knowledge.
Those scriptures do not mention anyone being judged in heaven. There, of course, will be a judgment and it is spoken of in Rev. 20:12:
The Judgement seat of Christ is not the Great White Throne Judgement.
In the Judgement Seat of Christ, works are tested to see if there are rewards.
No one is lost.
In the White Throne Judgement, the book of life is opened to look for names and if that name is not there, the person is judged by his works and condemned to the Lake of Fire.
Now, since the Church returns with Christ in Rev.19, that Judgement has to occur in heaven.
The Great White Throne Judgement occurs in Rev.20 after the Millennial reign of Christ and the Church is part of the judging, not being judged (1Cor.6)
Irrelevant??? You are being given a great history lesson so please take advantage of it. I don't know if you will ever find anyone that knows more about the 12 tribes than Diego. God knows who and where they are now and they will be restored by tribe in the future. (Rev.7, Ezek.48) Of course God knows and He is awakening others to that knowledge.
Cut it out, you are making my sides ache with laughing!
There is nothing 'mysterious' about the missing tribes of Israel.
Now, why don't you and Diego stop being coy and make whatever point you are trying to make.
Tell us why anyone should care about the 'missing' tribes.
I agree with you and I thought that was what I said. Sorry if it wasn't properly stated. There are two judgments.
Now, since the Church returns with Christ in Rev.19, that Judgement has to occur in heaven.
Why do you believe that is the church returning, or I should say, where do you see written that is the church? Those are the believers who have died before us. Of course they come back with Him. The judgement takes place here, not in heaven. (both judgements)
The Great White Throne Judgement occurs in Rev.20 after the Millennial reign of Christ and the Church is part of the judging, not being judged (1Cor.6)
1Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Yes, the saints judge but I don't believe it is after the millennial reign.
Rev.20:4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God and which had not worshipped the beast, either his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The scripture is telling me that they "judge and reign" during the millennium, not after. It also tells me that those that were "beheaded", etc. are those that have preceeded us. They are with Him now. The others, those that "neither had received his mark..." have to be those that are here when Satan is on earth. There is no other possibility. If they are raptured away how could they possibly have not worshipped the beast?
Isn't the reward of not worshipping the beast why they reign and judge with Him?
I'm sure he did. My entire point of this discourse is the fact you have just proved. The Ten tribes of the north were not lost during the first century. Everyone knew where they were and what they were called. It wasn't Jews.
Our Lord himself tells the Apostles this is where they are to go [Matthew 10:5-6] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
The Apostle Peter himself writes to some of them (they lived along the southern shores of the Black Sea [1 Peter 1-2] Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. These folks were not called Jews....they did have a foreknowledge of God....they were located not too far from where they had been exiled (700 years earlier)....they were not under Roman control {Josephus Post #160). They were also at that time not under Assyrian control as the Assyrian Empire disintegrated about 600 years before that.....and this is how "Anna" of the tribe of Asher was able to be in Jerusalem. Why do you suppose Luke refers to her as an Asherite? Why doesn't he call her just "an old Jewish woman?
The other 8 are known to God and are considered Jews since Judah is the leading tribe.
Yes....all are known to God but only secular tradition calls them Jews. The Bible calls them Israelites. Our Lord called them His Sheep [John 21:15-17] So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
All of the tribes are represented again in the Millennial reign (Ezek.48)
[Ezekiel 48:19] And they that serve the city shall serve it out of all the tribes of Israel. According to you this should read: "All of the Jewish Tribes"! When are you folks just going to read what it says and quit trying to put your own spin on it?
I didn't know either of us was being "coy" and I don't believe either of us said it was mysterious. I personally wonder why more don't know about it or why it isn't taught but that's just me.
Tell us why anyone should care about the 'missing' tribes.
Why should you care about anything God tells us about? Because He wants us to know!!!
Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people,' there it shall be said unto them, 'Ye are the sons of the living God.'
11.Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land; for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
Who are those "sons of the living God" and where are they now? Are we part of that, is that why we feel such a closeness to our Jewish brothers, is that why we take Israel's side?
Those are some of the reasons I think we should care about the missing tribes.
The tribes are not 'missing', God knows exactly what tribe each Jew belongs to.
Now, Paul was of the tribe of Benajamin, thus, associated with the Southern tribe of Judah, yet calls himself an Israelite (Rom.11:1).
James writes to the 12 tribes that are dispersed.
Jews can be of any tribe today, not just Judah and Benajamin, it is an common term now for the entire race.
So being pro-Jewish means you are pro-Israelite-all 12 tribes.
It isn't taught, because it is irrelevant at best and heretical at worse (e.g.the missing tribes are the British)
The word 'Jew' originally meant only the Southern tribes, but has expanded to mean all tribes.
The tribes are not lost, they are concealed among the Jews and God will reveal what each tribe each 'Jew' belongs to during the Tribulation and Millennial reign.
The term 'Jew' and 'Israelite' are interchangeable terms and Paul used them for himself when he called himself both (Rom.11:1, Gal.2:15).
Thus, Anna, from the tribe of Aser, would be considered a Jew, even though she is not of the tribe of Judah and Benajamin.
Now, all those from the 12 tribes are both Jewish and Israelites, just as Paul described himself as being.
It is the Church coming back with the rest of the saints since the Church has been married to the Lamb in Rev.19:7 (Eph.5:30, 2Cor.11:2).
It is not only the Church that returns with Christ, but all departed saints, including Tribulational ones.
Of course He knows where ALL of His chosen are, ALL of the 12 tribes, all of the house of Israel and house of Judah - do you? Do you know, if not then they are missing to you as well as most of mankind. How many know their ancestry back past 3 or 4 generations?
Now, Paul was of the tribe of Benajamin, thus, associated with the Southern tribe of Judah, yet calls himself an Israelite (Rom.11:1).
All 12 tribes are of Jacob, and his name was changed to Israel. So all 12 tribes are considered Israelites but the "Jews" are of the tribe of Judah. There is a difference in the two houses and that difference remains today. They will be brought together again but that hasn't happened yet. (Ez.37:16-22)
Jews can be of any tribe today, not just Judah and Benajamin, it is an common term now for the entire race.
It is common but it is incorrect. Aren't you glad that you now know the truth.
So being pro-Jewish means you are pro-Israelite-all 12 tribes.
That is what some believe but we know that all 12 tribes are not brought together until the millennium. Even then you must notice something about the tribes. In Rev.7: the tribes of Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned. They are left out because of idolatry. In Ezekiel 48 they are again part of the other tribes.
It isn't irrelevant to me at all nor do I think it is heretical. I do believe the tribes eventually settled in England then to America but that is my belief. You are welcome to yours.
The word 'Jew' originally meant only the Southern tribes, but has expanded to mean all tribes.
To many it has - they are wrong.
The tribes are not lost, they are concealed among the Jews and God will reveal what each tribe each 'Jew' belongs to during the Tribulation and Millennial reign
What you believe disagrees with what God tells us. It is your choice.
But FTD, it doesn't mention a church coming back anywhere in these verses.
2Cor.11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy; for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Eph.5:30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones. (32)This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready."
His wife is ready to be joined with His bride and that "marriage" happens on earth, at His 2nd Advent. His "wife" is His elect. Those whom He has already justified, (Romans 8:28-30). His bride are those of "free will" who have accepted Him and are now part of His family.
All three of those verses are, as you said, about Christ and His church, His people but no where does it say they are going to be raptured and come back with Him.
It is not only the Church that returns with Christ, but all departed saints, including Tribulational ones.
I don't find anywhere that the "church" returns with Christ. All departed saints do.
We will go through the tribulation and will be refined:
Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My name, and I will hear them: I will say,'It is My People:' and they shall say 'the Lord is my God.'
How is gold and silver refined? Melted down and the slag is thrown to the side. His children will remain pure and not fall for Satan's lies. To go through this refinement we must be here.
But FTD, it doesn't mention a church coming back anywhere in these verses.
That is who is married with Christ and who comes back to reign with Him on earth.
2Cor.11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy; for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. Eph.5:30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones. (32)This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready."
His wife is ready to be joined with His bride and that "marriage" happens on earth, at His 2nd Advent. His "wife" is His elect. Those whom He has already justified, (Romans 8:28-30). His bride are those of "free will" who have accepted Him and are now part of His family.
His 'wife' are all of those who are part of His Body and that consists of all who have died in Christ since Pentacost and those who will be raptured who are in Christ and not die.
They will be judged at the Judgement seat of Christ to receive rewards and crowns.
All three of those verses are, as you said, about Christ and His church, His people but no where does it say they are going to be raptured and come back with Him.
Paul talks about the Rapture in 1Thess.4 and 1Cor.15.
[ It is not only the Church that returns with Christ, but all departed saints, including Tribulational ones. ]
I don't find anywhere that the "church" returns with Christ. All departed saints do.
Well, since the Church are saints (Phil.1:1)and being part of the family of God (Eph.3:15) they are with Christ when He returns to claim His Jewish Kingdom
We will go through the tribulation and will be refined: Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My name, and I will hear them: I will say,'It is My People:' and they shall say 'the Lord is my God.' How is gold and silver refined? Melted down and the slag is thrown to the side. His children will remain pure and not fall for Satan's lies. To go through this refinement we must be here.
No, the Jews (12 tribes of Israel), who are also God's people and they are going to go through the Tribulation as judgement.
They will then be converted when they see Him (Jer.31:31, Zech 12:10)
The only place the Christian comes into contact with fire is at the Judgement seat of Christ where his works are tested by fire, but he saved through it.
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