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Preaching a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Weakens the Church
ArriveNet ^ | July 7, 2007 | J. Grant Swank, Jr.

Posted on 07/07/2007 7:48:37 PM PDT by tnarg

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1 posted on 07/07/2007 7:48:40 PM PDT by tnarg
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To: tnarg

I am a modified dispensationalist who believes the pre-tribbies are holding to a doctrine that has almost no scriptural basis. Nothing in the Bible indicates the church in an Age of Apostasy will be “raptured” out and not face the winnowing process that has been the fate of Christians in every age.


2 posted on 07/07/2007 7:54:48 PM PDT by attiladhun2 (Islam is a despotism so vile that it would warm the heart of Orwell's Big Brother)
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To: attiladhun2

agreed

http://www.endtime.com

That site is run by Oneness Pentecostals but they have pretty good end times teaching.


3 posted on 07/07/2007 7:59:24 PM PDT by fishtank ("Amnesty" and "amnesia" are from the same root word !!!)
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To: attiladhun2

Only God knows the time.


4 posted on 07/07/2007 8:02:28 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Greed is NOT a conservative ideal.)
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To: tnarg

Reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw a few years ago: warning, in case of Rapture, this car will be unmanned.

I remember thinking that would be pretty inconsiderate of the Lord to zap people out of vehicles barreling down city streets. (By the way, I don’t believe in a pretribulation rapture.)


5 posted on 07/07/2007 8:16:21 PM PDT by caseinpoint (Don't get thickly involved in thin things.)
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To: attiladhun2
I agree with that although I don’t know that I am a “modified dispensationalist” being that I don’t know what it is. ;-)

For now, I am content with the label: historic premillenialist.

I’m open to learn more though.

6 posted on 07/07/2007 8:35:11 PM PDT by streetpreacher (Arminian by birth, Calvinist by the grace of God)
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To: fishtank
I don’t know that it’s worth the effort seeing that they are heretics.
7 posted on 07/07/2007 8:36:03 PM PDT by streetpreacher (Arminian by birth, Calvinist by the grace of God)
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To: caseinpoint

Warning: In case of Jihad, car will explode.


8 posted on 07/07/2007 8:36:42 PM PDT by streetpreacher (Arminian by birth, Calvinist by the grace of God)
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To: tnarg

“The belief in a secret rapture of believers before the tribulation”

Ummm, trust me it won’t be a secret.


9 posted on 07/07/2007 8:42:18 PM PDT by swmobuffalo (The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist.)
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To: attiladhun2
Food for thought...

Is Christ's Return Imminent?

10 posted on 07/07/2007 9:14:06 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: attiladhun2

I suppose in the great scheme of things it doesn’t matter.


11 posted on 07/07/2007 9:22:42 PM PDT by aft_lizard (born conservative...I chose to be a republican)
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To: streetpreacher

Now that’s a bumper sticker I would pay attention to, as in accelerating out of the area as quickly as possible. ;o)


12 posted on 07/07/2007 9:55:15 PM PDT by caseinpoint (Don't get thickly involved in thin things.)
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To: LiteKeeper
Food for thought...

yummy.

13 posted on 07/07/2007 10:00:23 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: attiladhun2

So you are of the opinion that God will have his Bride suffer His Wrath along with the unbelievers of the world?


14 posted on 07/07/2007 10:04:26 PM PDT by CA Conservative
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To: attiladhun2

I haven’t a clue what a ‘modified dispensationlist’ is, but the Fathers of the Church uniformly applied the Scriptural passages adduced in support of the notion of a ‘rapture’ to the experience of Christians alive at the time of the General Resurrection.

The ‘pre-tribulation rapture’ is a 19th century innovation, and is heresy even without a conciliar condemnation.


15 posted on 07/07/2007 10:12:53 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: The_Reader_David
The ‘pre-tribulation rapture’ is a 19th century innovation...

Like Papal infallibility?

16 posted on 07/07/2007 10:21:16 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: tnarg
I really don’t see how Matthew 24:29-3l refutes the pre-trib rapture. Before we micro examine any verse, shouldn’t we take the context into account, i.e. the entire 24th {and some of the 25th} chapter?

Obviously, our Lord is telling of multiple events that will take place at different time periods. For example, verse 2; “I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” Here, I think Jesus is foretelling the Roman destruction of the temple. {70 A.D. ??} It should be safe to conclude this chapter covers a wide range of history.

Let’s look at the verses you have cited: 29 “Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

Sounds frightening enough. Jesus follows with the fig tree lesson. Then He assures us His Words will never pass away. Time for some more prophecy:

36”No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Oh-oh, Something’s wrong here? The Son of Man will come at an hour I do not expect? If I see great tribulation, the sun and moon darkened, stars “falling” etc. Let me assure you, I will be expecting my Master’s return at any minute.
When non-believers witness this, will they really be “eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage” and be living without a clue?

Who are “all the nations of the earth” that will mourn when His “sign” appears? It can’t be us, because we would not mourn, we would be relieved and happy at His appearing.

This is barely a beginning of the many reasons we believe there will be a “rapture”. I certainly don’t claim to speak for the many different variants of this teaching.

Is the point of your post to persuade us your point is correct? You may be, for I can never claim to be anything more than a simple student. Have you considered that some of us once believed as you do? With our present limitations, there will always be some things we don’t understand. There will always be some pieces of the “puzzle” that don’t seem to fit. For me, I am able to fit many more pieces with the “rapture” theory.

---------------------------------

“For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

“Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”

17 posted on 07/07/2007 11:09:14 PM PDT by labette
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To: labette
Good post...

And as you say, the 2nd coming of Jesus will be known to all...It won't be a mystery and 'all' eyes (the entire world) will see him...

In the pre-tribulation rapture, only Christians will see Jesus...

While the rapture of the church is clearly manifest in the bible, there are religious groups that claim they can't find it there...I can only assume that God has blinded them to the fact since it is so cleary attested to in the word of God...

And then many Christians can see the rapture in the scripture but they claim it is at the end of the tribulation period...

What most people don't consider is that there is more than one resurrection spoken of in the bible...

In the book of the end times, God says 'come up hither' three different times...But then people get hung up on this verse:

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

To those people the rapture is at the end of the tribulation...

But as any farmer knows, there are 3 'pickings' when it comes to the harvest...When the tomatos start getting ripe, you rush out and pick the first ripe ones among the green...You pick the firstfruits...

In the peak of the season, you go out and get the main harvest...But, there will yet be some left that are not ready to pick...At the end of the season, after the main harvest is sold, or put up for the winter, you go out and get those last few that have become ripe before the frost hits...Those are the gleanings...And they are all the First resurrection...All are Christians...

The first resurrection of God's believers has three parts to it...There will be a pre-tribulation rapture, AND there will be a post tribulation rapture...

And what if the pre-tribulation rapture wasn't revealed until the 1800s??? So what??? I have no doubt that some things that will happen in the future have yet to be revealed...

18 posted on 07/08/2007 3:17:49 AM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
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To: attiladhun2

true


19 posted on 07/08/2007 4:58:01 AM PDT by tnarg
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To: fishtank

thanks for the reference


20 posted on 07/08/2007 4:58:30 AM PDT by tnarg
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To: cripplecreek

and God has stated same in his revelation.

those who study his divine revelation discover not only the details but also the love behind giving those details to the truly vigilant and committed.


21 posted on 07/08/2007 4:59:21 AM PDT by tnarg
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To: caseinpoint

thanks for your statement in parenthesis particularly.


22 posted on 07/08/2007 5:00:08 AM PDT by tnarg
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To: streetpreacher

to learn more from the word itself, study carefully matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 as well as revelation 19-20.

note especially matthew 24:29-31. reread it until it really reveals its tidy detail.


23 posted on 07/08/2007 5:01:37 AM PDT by tnarg
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To: swmobuffalo

and, trust the word, it won’t occur prior to the tribulation: matthew 24:29-31.


24 posted on 07/08/2007 5:02:31 AM PDT by tnarg
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To: LiteKeeper

christ will not return until all the signs HE stated are in line up for his second return.

he will not return this evening, for instance. the word states nowhere that his return is merely willy-nilly timing.

he gave the signs in matthew 24, for instance, and the time of his return is particularized in matthew 24:29-31.


25 posted on 07/08/2007 5:03:55 AM PDT by tnarg
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To: CA Conservative

God will not have his bride suffer his wrath. onlyl the ungodly suffer that. but his bride does suffer persecuation. and there ia a huge difference.

as i type, there are scores of ‘bride’ believers who are suffering persecution but that has nothing to do with the wrath of the divine.


26 posted on 07/08/2007 5:05:04 AM PDT by tnarg
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To: The_Reader_David

yes, per “The ‘pre-tribulation rapture’ is a 19th century innovation” as i stated in my article.


27 posted on 07/08/2007 5:06:19 AM PDT by tnarg
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To: aft_lizard

everything matters if it is put by the divine in the divine revelation or it would not be there.


28 posted on 07/08/2007 5:07:04 AM PDT by tnarg
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To: P-Marlowe

yes


29 posted on 07/08/2007 5:07:31 AM PDT by tnarg
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To: labette

“keeping you from the hour” can also be translated from the greek term for “from” as “in the midst of.”

believers don’t suffer divine wrath. they may suffer however persecution. there is a huge difference between suffering divine wrath and suffering due to persecution.


30 posted on 07/08/2007 5:08:55 AM PDT by tnarg
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To: labette; CA Conservative
The church should be preparing for spiritual battle against the most evil forces arrayed by hell.

That statement is true, no matter what your Christian religious affiliation is.

I really don’t see how Matthew 24:29-3l refutes the pre-trib rapture. Before we micro examine any verse, shouldn’t we take the context into account, i.e. the entire 24th {and some of the 25th} chapter?

Matt.24:29 tells us that there will be two tribulations, the first is that of Satan, Immediately after the tribulation of those days....That is the one Christians must be concerned about as he is coming after us (he already has the others):

Rev.12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

That is one of the verses in which God tells us we will be here to experience that tribulation. ...If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation....(Rev.14:9-10). When Jesus arrives, at the 7th trump, His 2nd Advent, it is the time of His wrath but He isn't angry at His children, those that didn't fall for Satan's deceit and waited for the true Christ. We have nothing to fear from Him.

Labette, you wrote: Obviously, our Lord is telling of multiple events that will take place at different time periods. For example, verse 2; “I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” Here, I think Jesus is foretelling the Roman destruction of the temple. {70 A.D. ??} It should be safe to conclude this chapter covers a wide range of history.

Many agree with you, in that Jesus was speaking about the event of 70AD but I don't think the gravity of that chapter could possibly mean that. He is telling his disciples about the end of the world, not just what would happen to that one small spot, no matter how important it was. Also there are still stones standing at the wailing wall. To me, the belief in 70AD being the time He was speaking of is part of, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Oh-oh, Something’s wrong here? The Son of Man will come at an hour I do not expect? If I see great tribulation, the sun and moon darkened, stars “falling” etc. Let me assure you, I will be expecting my Master’s return at any minute.....When non-believers witness this, will they really be “eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage” and be living without a clue?

It is my belief that the "great tribulation" is that of Satan, of his lies and deceit. He is the anti-christ, which was mistranslated and should be "instead of Christ". Many, actually most, will fall for his lies because they won't know he is an imposter. His tribulation will be one of peace and prosperity (playing like he is the Lamb). That is why the tribulation is so great (Matt.24:21). The "stars" that are falling are the fallen angels who return with Satan. The "eating, drinking and giving in marriage" is reference to how it was in the days of Noah when the fallen angels were "marrying" daughters of Adam. It isn't non-believers but believers, Christians, that will be the first to be "taken" by his deceit.

Who are “all the nations of the earth” that will mourn when His “sign” appears? It can’t be us, because we would not mourn, we would be relieved and happy at His appearing.

Would you mourn if you, who love Christ and followed Him all your life, suddenly realized you have been worshipping the imposter, the anti-christ, Satan. You wouldn't realize that until the true Christ appears and then it would be too late to change. That is what the great apostasy is about. What would make a true Christian change who they worship? Nothing - it is done with deceit but that will not be an excuse as God warns us many times in His letter and tells us what will happen. That is why the rapture doctrine is very dangerous. Many are being taught they will be taken away and do not study the warnings He wrote to us.

So...those that do not follow anti-christ will be, as you say, relieved and happy at His coming, the others will not.

“For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”...“Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”

We will not suffer wrath as we are His children but the condition is that we stay true to Jesus Christ and "endure patiently" through the deception of Satan in his tribulation. His Word keeps us from Satan's "hour" and as the verse you quoted states - "that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth

CA Conservative you said: So you are of the opinion that God will have his Bride suffer His Wrath along with the unbelievers of the world?

We will not suffer if we stay true and it will be very difficult. In speaking of Satan's tribulation, his hour, Jesus said, And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. "No flesh saved", meaning, most men will follow Satan.

31 posted on 07/08/2007 5:28:41 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: attiladhun2

You mistake tribulations for the great tribulation. Also Hebrew prophesy is pattern. You should restudy the last time the earth was judged. If there is a rapture to come, you will find your answer there.


32 posted on 07/08/2007 5:46:58 AM PDT by D Rider
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To: LiteKeeper
I did not read the article..., but Christs return is not imminent, if there is no rapture. Since the man of sin would need to have been revealed first, also 3 1/2 years of judgment on the earth.
33 posted on 07/08/2007 5:50:08 AM PDT by D Rider
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Some interesting arguments have been made here.


34 posted on 07/08/2007 6:30:24 AM PDT by labette
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To: Iscool

Heh, heh.
I always thought the old wedding customs were an interesting portrayal. But I really like your tomato harvest comparison...I can relate to that!


35 posted on 07/08/2007 6:36:33 AM PDT by labette
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To: D Rider

it would be nice if you did read the article.


36 posted on 07/08/2007 7:01:07 AM PDT by tnarg
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To: tnarg

There’s not many post-tribbers here on FR - nice to see that we can add one more to the tally.


37 posted on 07/08/2007 8:03:01 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (As heard on the Amish Radio Network! http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1675029/posts)
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To: tnarg
God will not have his bride suffer his wrath. onlyl the ungodly suffer that. but his bride does suffer persecuation. and there ia a huge difference.

But the Tribulation is directly described as the wrath of God on the world. If the Church (His Bride) will be here during that tie, then it will receive His wrath as well, since many of the plagues and judgments are world-wide in their scope...

38 posted on 07/08/2007 8:28:18 AM PDT by CA Conservative
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To: Alex Murphy

yes, am added to the tally. thanks for the welcome.


39 posted on 07/08/2007 9:41:21 AM PDT by tnarg
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To: CA Conservative

the entire trib time frame is NOT referred to as the wrath of deity. only the bowls of wrath are related specifically to divine wrath.

believers suffer through the tribulation for believers are specifically mentioned in the tribulation time frame. i’ll leave that to your homework to find them. they are there. they are the ones beheaded, etc. so go to it. have fun. enjoy the study.


40 posted on 07/08/2007 9:42:45 AM PDT by tnarg
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To: tnarg
it would be nice if you did read the article.

I just did. It is an excellent article. But it ignores the Old Testament references to the rapture, which is quite common. Together they paint a powerful case for a pre-tribulation rapture.

41 posted on 07/08/2007 10:37:38 AM PDT by D Rider
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To: D Rider

jesus’ words in mt 24, mk 13 and lk 21 are THE KEY WORDS.

no use to go further if one does not want to.

jesus, deity incarnate, responded to the disciples’ questions regarding his return.

that info is primary.

that info points to a POST-TRIB rapture coinciding with the second coming. this IS the key passage from jesus’ lips: matthew 24:29-31.

all other second coming prophetic passages should be read in light of jesus’ words.


42 posted on 07/08/2007 10:50:48 AM PDT by tnarg
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To: D Rider

ps:

there is no powerful case for a pre-trib rapture in the old testament for the ot passages would not contradict jesus’ clear statement in mt 24:29-31.

jesus’ data come first, above all else. all else must be read through jesus’ clear data. not the other way around.

jesus’ detail is PRIMARY.


43 posted on 07/08/2007 10:52:44 AM PDT by tnarg
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To: The_Reader_David

you stated: “I haven’t a clue what a ‘modified dispensationlist’ is”.

nor do i.


44 posted on 07/08/2007 11:03:52 AM PDT by tnarg
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To: tnarg; CA Conservative
believers suffer through the tribulation for believers are specifically mentioned in the tribulation time frame. i’ll leave that to your homework to find them. they are there. they are the ones beheaded, etc. so go to it. have fun. enjoy the study.

We are mentioned and we will be there but we won't be beheaded. Christ certainly wouldn't behead us and neither can Satan.

1Chronicles 16:22 Saying, "Touch not Mine anointed, And do My prophets no harm."

The only way he can harm us is with deception and if we are sealed with God's Word and know the truth then he can't touch us.

Rev.9:4 (Satan's tribulation) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5.And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months; and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man

It is my belief that the reference to those that were beheaded are to those that have died before us, as in the Roman times and of course to any who are murdered for their Christian beliefs today. They come to earth with Christ and join those that didn't take the "mark of the beast" during his tribulation.

Ca Conservative wrote: But the Tribulation is directly described as the wrath of God on the world. If the Church (His Bride) will be here during that time, then it will receive His wrath as well, since many of the plagues and judgments are world-wide in their scope...

His bride and wife will be here (we have work to do) and the earth is in for a big shaking but remember the tribulation we must worry about is Satan's, not the one of Jesus Christ - He loves us. Think about how He protected his own during the flood, during the Exodus, how Daniel wasn't hurt when he was in the lion's den, how the 3 Hebrew children weren't harmed in the fire. Those are our examples so we know He would never harm us but the condition is that we do not follow Satan. If we do, even unknowingly, then we are no longer a child of God but of Satan.

Another point to consider is that when Jesus arrives at His 2nd Advent, 7th trump (after Satan's), then:

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Corinthians 15:52)

So...How much will we experience?

45 posted on 07/08/2007 11:22:01 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: P-Marlowe

Yes, rather like papal infallibility. Another bit of Western heresy.

[:-)======

(That’s an Orthodox monastic smiley, just in case you haven’t seen it before.)


46 posted on 07/08/2007 11:32:51 AM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: tnarg
the entire trib time frame is NOT referred to as the wrath of deity. only the bowls of wrath are related specifically to divine wrath.

You are, of course, makng a distinction between the first 3-1/2 years of the tribulation and the last 3-1/2 years, often referred to as the Great Tribulation. Does that mean you believe in a mid-tribulation rapture? If you are post-trib, or don't believe in a rapture at all, then you must believe that He will allow His Bride to suffer his Wrath... I'm just interested in how you support that scripturally.

believers suffer through the tribulation for believers are specifically mentioned in the tribulation time frame. i’ll leave that to your homework to find them. they are there. they are the ones beheaded, etc. so go to it. have fun. enjoy the study.

Ah, yes, but are those who were believers prior to the Tribulation, or do they become believers during the Tribulation?

By the way, I've done quite a bit of study on the subject, so please try not to come across as condescending. We may come to different conclusions, and neither of us will know for sure who is right until Christ returns, but we still need to treat each other with Christian love and respect.

47 posted on 07/08/2007 11:45:57 AM PDT by CA Conservative
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To: The_Reader_David
Don't you reject the Book of Revelation.

One man's heresy is another man's orthodoxy, eh? <[;-)======

48 posted on 07/08/2007 11:55:02 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: tnarg
that info points to a POST-TRIB rapture coinciding with the second coming. this IS the key passage from jesus’ lips: matthew 24:29-31.

all other second coming prophetic passages should be read in light of jesus’ words.

Not so...None of the Jews in Mat. 24 knew anything about a born again, Gentile church...It hadn't been revealed yet...They knew nothing about the adoption of Gentiles into the church...Why would Jesus reveal to them the rapture of the Gentile church??? Answer, He wouldn't...

In the book of Revelation, the Wedding takes place 'after' the Rapture, yet, before the end of the Tribulation, before the 2nd coming of Jesus...

49 posted on 07/08/2007 12:32:44 PM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
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To: caseinpoint

“would be pretty inconsiderate of the Lord to zap people out of vehicles barreling down city streets.’

Grandpa was sent straight to heaven, not like his screaming passengers.


50 posted on 07/08/2007 12:45:46 PM PDT by gcruse
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