Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Preaching a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Weakens the Church
ArriveNet ^ | July 7, 2007 | J. Grant Swank, Jr.

Posted on 07/07/2007 7:48:37 PM PDT by tnarg

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 801-838 next last
To: blue-duncan; Iscool; P-Marlowe
"2Thess.2:3, 7-9...Now who is “he who now letteth” that is taken out of the the way? It has to be either the church or the Holy Spirit and if the latter, then the church is gone also since it only exists becsuse of the presence of the Holy Spirit in it. After “he who now letteth” is gone, then the “Wicked” one is revealed “whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders”. So for a time Satan and his anti-christ are given time to do some work, but the Holy Spirit is not present (which means the church is not present) as He was before He was taken out of the way. This is all before the second coming."

"He who letteth" isn't the church or the Holy Sprit but it is Michael the Archangel.

Jude 11:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke thee."

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy People: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since thre was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy People shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Rev.12:7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8.And prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven
.

Michael is the one that, "he who now letteth".

"After “he who now letteth” is gone, then the “Wicked” one is revealed “whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders”."

I understand 2Thess.2:9 in a different way than you. The "he" referenced here is Jesus. He comes after the working of Satan who had power and signs and lying wonders.

"So for a time Satan and his anti-christ are given time to do some work, but the Holy Spirit is not present (which means the church is not present) as He was before He was taken out of the way. This is all before the second coming."

My belief is that Satan is the anti-christ, it is one of the roles he plays. He is given time to work but the church is here. I agree that it will all be before the second coming.

101 posted on 07/09/2007 12:53:39 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]

To: caseinpoint

Well, at least lots of nice property will become available in case of rapture. I guess we heathens will have the pick of the litter. :P


102 posted on 07/09/2007 1:02:21 PM PDT by BritExPatInFla
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Ping-Pong
"Clouds", as used here is just an expression that means in a big crowd, as a cloud of locusts. The word "air" means "to breathe, air", meaning your breath of life, your spirit, not the atmosphere. Knowing that we can read the verse differently:

I'd like to think that clouds means,,,clouds...And air,,,is air...The translaters could just as well as said a 'cloud of saints if that's what they meant...I would have if that's what I'd meant...

Then we which are alive, and remain shall be caught up together with them (those that have died before us) in a (huge crowd), to meet the Lord in (our spirit bodies): and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And to compare this with the actual verse:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And coupled with the companion verses for the Rapture:

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is a physical resurrection as well as a spirital resurrection...

1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Whether the Rapture is Pre, or Post, it's a physical resurrection and we Christians will meet the Lord in the atmosphere...He doesn't land on the ground as he does at the 2nd coming...

No one will see Him...Not even the Christians...The graves will be opened and the bodies of the dead saints/Christians will undergo a change in mid air as they (and we) are lifted off the face of the earth...

He descends at His 2nd Advent, at the 7th trump, as He told us (1Corin.15:52). The 7th trump is the last trump. Satan comes first at the 6th seal, 6th trump and 6th vial - 666.

An interesting point is why did the translaters of the KJV, who had no clue about a Pre-Trib Rapture, use the term 'at the last trump' as opposed to the last trumpet??? Could it be the last trump of the 1st trumpet???For they go on to say "for the trumpet will sound"...I'm convinced 'this trumpet' is not one of the 7 trumpets sounded during the Tribulation...

The dead "rise first" because they are already with Him, that was what Paul was telling them. They are not in a hole in the ground but with Him.

But yes, they are in a hole in the ground, physically...And for some, their ashes are scattered across the earth and in some cases, outer space...Some are at the bottom of the oceans...

Spiritually, the dead in Christ are with the Lord...At the Rapture, they will physically be with the Lord...

I believe my original assessment was correct...

103 posted on 07/09/2007 1:03:03 PM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 93 | View Replies]

To: Ping-Pong; blue-duncan; Iscool
I understand 2Thess.2:9 in a different way than you. The "he" referenced here is Jesus. He comes after the working of Satan who had power and signs and lying wonders.

Boy Ping, your hermenutics in II Thess 2:9 is as bad as it is in II Thess 2:10. May I refer you to a few commentaries on that verse.

JF&B:
after--according to the working ("energy") of Satan, as opposed to the energy or working of the Holy Spirit in the Church (see on Eph_1:19). As Christ is related to God, so is Antichrist to Satan, his visible embodiment and manifestation: Satan works through him. Rev_13:2, "The dragon gave him (the beast) his power . . . seat . . . great authority."

Gill:
2Th 2:9 - Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan,.... That is, as a deceiver, a liar, and a murderer; for such was the working of Satan with our first parents; he seduced Eve, not only by subtlety, but by lying; he abode not in the truth, is the father of lies, and a murderer from the beginning: and such is the working of antichrist his firstborn; he comes in a deceitful way, under a profession of Christ, and a pretension of faith in him, and love to him; but speaks lies in hypocrisy, for such are his doctrines and tenets; and is not only a murderer of the bodies of the saints, but of the souls of men; which are the wares the whore of Babylon deals in:

Clarke:
2Th 2:9 - Whose coming is after the working of Satan - The operation of God’s Spirit sends his messengers; the operation of Satan’s spirit sends his emissaries. The one comes κατ’ ενεργειαν του Θεου, after or according to the energy or inward powerful working of God; the other comes κατ’ ενεργειαν του Σατανα, according to the energy or inward working of Satan.

Barnes:
2Th 2:9 - Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan - Greek, κατ ̓ ἐνέργειαν τοὺ Σατανᾶ kat' energeian tou Satana. According to the energy of Satan; that is, the energetic or efficient operation of Satan. The word rendered “after,” it need not be said to one who looks at the Greek, does not refer to time, but is a preposition, meaning according to; in conformity with; meaning that the manner of his appearing would be accompanied by such works as would show that the agency of Satan was employed, and such as he only could produce. It does not mean that the coming of the Lord Jesus would be after Satan had worked in this manner, but that the manifestation of that wicked one would be with such demonstrations of power and wonder as Satan only could effect. The system over which he presides is originated by Satan, and sustained by those things which he alone can perform. On the word “Satan,” see the notes on Job_1:6. The idea is, that it would be under the direction and control of the great enemy of God, and that the things on which it would rely for support could be traced to his agency. In all the pretended miracles to which it would appeal, there would be nothing which Satan could not accomplish.

104 posted on 07/09/2007 1:13:09 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 101 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe
I don't "warn" people about their belief in a post tribulation rapture. I could care less if people believe in a pre-trib, mid trib or post trib rapture. As paul says, it is a MYSTERY.

Would you warn them if you felt they were in jeopardy?

At any rate, eshcatology is not central to Christian belief. So we ought not to be questioning either the intelligence or the good will of those who disagree with us on this issue.

Do you feel I question your intelligence or good will. If you do I haven't made my case properly and I apologize. That was never my intention, nor do I believe that.

105 posted on 07/09/2007 2:37:50 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 95 | View Replies]

To: Ping-Pong; tnarg
Would you warn them if you felt they were in jeopardy?

Nobody is in jeopardy for having a mistaken notion about eschatology. Nobody will go to hell because they didn't have correct beliefs about the rapture. Having a mistaken belief about the rapture is not a sin. The whole thing is a mystery. When push comes to shove, I think we will all someday find out that we were all wrong in one way or another.

Do you feel I question your intelligence or good will.

No but some people think we are all brainwashed. Hogwash.

106 posted on 07/09/2007 3:14:14 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 105 | View Replies]

To: Ping-Pong; P-Marlowe; tnarg; Iscool
“Would you warn them if you felt they were in jeopardy?”

Let’s see, clouds are groups of people; air is spirit; rising first means coming down; the restrainer of evil is Michael; and the one who comes according to the workings of Satan is Jesus. All of this truth in code to a brand new church that Paul had only a short time to establish and a Gentile one at that. Why would Paul use symbolic language to answer very clear and important questions, like, “if the Lord’s return is at hand what about the dead in Christ?” Or, “we just got this message that the Lord is returning, is it true?” when all he has to do is use the usual meaning of words they would understand, like clouds mean clouds and air means air and we will rise to meet Jesus who is bringing the dead in Christ with Him to be united with their resurrection bodies. Now that is a heck of a lot clearer than the tortuous route of symbol.

Gentiles would have no knowledge of Michael, the prince of Israel. He is only mentioned twice in the Old Testament in Daniel 10. Why would baby Gentile Christians jump to the conclusion that “he that restrains” would be an angel when they have been taught that God, the Holy Spirit is present with them to lead, comfort and guide them unlike His operation during the time of Daniel? Is the Holy Spirit incapable of multi-tasking?

How can you warn with such an uncertain sound?

107 posted on 07/09/2007 7:43:16 PM PDT by blue-duncan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 105 | View Replies]

To: blue-duncan
"Now that is a heck of a lot clearer than the tortuous route of symbol."

"But whatever is given by inspiration of God is given for our instruction, and we must patiently and humbly take God’s word as He has written it, and see if it deals in "ambiguous metaphors," and whether perhaps we may not find there the truth of which we are in search." ”Facts and Theories As To a Future State” by F. W. Grant, Ch 25, last paragraph.

108 posted on 07/09/2007 11:40:10 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 107 | View Replies]

To: tnarg
Just out of curiosity are you the same Grant Swank who has written dozens of articles for a website devoted to belief in a pre-tribulation rapture?

Your resume lists that you have written articles for RatpureReady.com Yet you claim that those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture are twisting the scriptures and comitting error "bordering on the horrific."

Why would you post articles for RaptureReady.com if you disagree so vehemently with their purpose?

109 posted on 07/10/2007 12:32:38 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tnarg
My mistake, the website is Rapture alert.com.

But their philosophy is identical to Rapture Ready.

110 posted on 07/10/2007 12:37:52 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 109 | View Replies]

To: blue-duncan; P-Marlowe; Iscool; attiladhun2; D Rider; Seven_0
Just a simple question, is the Holy Spirit and the church on earth during the opening of the seals, trumpets and vials in Rev. 6-9, 11, 15-16? In other words is the church going through God’s judgments?

Yes, anyone living at that time, including the "church" are on earth during the opening of all the seals, trumps and vials. Is the church going through God's judgments - Yes, and hopefully we will be "judged" worthy. Others will not.

Will we experience God's wrath? No, we will not if we haven't followed Satan. We will however be fully assaulted during Satan's tribulation.

Matt.24:15.When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whosoreadeth, let him understand:)
21.For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The assault of his tribulation is lies and deceit. If you are sealed with God's Word he cannot touch you.

(Rev. 6-9, 11, 15-16) - 9-11 refer to those that have died before us and are part of the army He brings with Him when He returns. 15-16 refer to those on earth that believed the lie. When they see the true Christ they will realize they were taken but it will be too late.

111 posted on 07/10/2007 5:46:56 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 97 | View Replies]

To: Seven_0

I am familiar with the works of some of the Exclusive Brethren and their hermeneutics which I have used at times in teaching. However, when the passage is clear to search for the esoteric to satisfy preconceived ideas is to turn the scriptures over to the professionals and the unscrupulous thus denying the perspicuity of the word.


112 posted on 07/10/2007 6:17:36 AM PDT by blue-duncan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 108 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; Iscool; Seven_0
I'm trying to answer your posts in order given but I have only a short time this morning before I leave for work so I'll take this question out of order.

When push comes to shove, I think we will all someday find out that we were all wrong in one way or another.

I agree completely but isn't the search for His truth a wonderful trip?

No but some people think we are all brainwashed. Hogwash.

I agree again. I believe this is part of "someday we will find we were all wrong in one way or another".

Nobody is in jeopardy for having a mistaken notion about eschatology. Nobody will go to hell because they didn't have correct beliefs about the rapture. Having a mistaken belief about the rapture is not a sin.

I'm afraid that here we disagree. If one should die before the 2nd Advent then there is no harm as long as they have accepted Christ. Belief in the rapture or not wouldn't have any effect on them as they did not follow Satan during his tribulation. It will only be a jeopardy if they don't wait for the true Christ and fall for Satan playing like he is the Lamb. As scripture tells us, "The whole world will wonder after him". His time seems to be drawing closer.

113 posted on 07/10/2007 6:27:27 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 106 | View Replies]

To: Ping-Pong; blue-duncan
If one should die before the 2nd Advent then there is no harm as long as they have accepted Christ.

Can you name any pre-tribulationists that you know who have not already accepted Christ?

Now can you name for me anyone that you know that does not believe in the Rapture who has not accepted Christ?

I suspect that the first list will be much shorter than the second.

Belief in the rapture or not wouldn't have any effect on them as they did not follow Satan during his tribulation. It will only be a jeopardy if they don't wait for the true Christ and fall for Satan playing like he is the Lamb.

Is God going to allow any of his sheep to be devoured by Satan? The sheep will follow Christ. The goats will follow Satan.

As scripture tells us, "The whole world will wonder after him". His time seems to be drawing closer.

Those who follow Christ are in the world, but not of the world. The world will follow Satan. They always have. The tribulation will be no different. It's just that during the tribulation they will suffer the Wrath of God for their disbelief.

114 posted on 07/10/2007 7:11:07 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 113 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe
Can you name any pre-tribulationists that you know who have not already accepted Christ?

No, I can't.

Now can you name for me anyone that you know that does not believe in the Rapture who has not accepted Christ?

Yes, I can.

Is God going to allow any of his sheep to be devoured by Satan? The sheep will follow Christ. The goats will follow Satan.

Yes, He tells us He allows it. That is my concern.

The Bible culminates with the great battle for souls at the end of this age. He tells us how difficult it will be, warns us of what to look for and tells us exactly what is expected of us. For those which, "had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Rev.19:4-5)

Those that worship the beast will do it unknowingly. Is rapture part of that? Is that the deception of end times?

115 posted on 07/10/2007 8:49:08 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 114 | View Replies]

To: Ping-Pong; blue-duncan; xzins
Those that worship the beast will do it unknowingly.

There are only two sides in this battle. Those who follow Christ and those who follow the world. Those who follow Christ will not follow the beast. They belong to Jesus. Those who choose to reject Christ will, by default, follow the beast.

I do believe that the Church will be taken out of the picture prior to the introduction of the beast simply because the Tribulation is the 70th Week of Daniel and the 70th Week of Daniel is the last week for Israel. The tribulation is the day of the Lord promised to the Children of Israel in which God will purify his nation by fire. The age of the Gentiles will end as the last week mentioned in Daniel:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Who were the "Thy people" mentioned in Daniel? Was it the gentiles? No. It was the Jews and the Nation of Israel.

It is at the end of the 70th week that all these things will be fulfilled. Revelation refers to the sealing of 144,000 Jews who are referenced as the servants of God. If there were millions of Gentile Christians on the earth during the beginning of the Tribulation, then why does God seal 144,000 Jews and place them in the special place of having the seal of the Living God placed upon their foreheads? Why does he not do this to the millions upon millions of Gentile Christians?

My answer is because they are all busy worshipping the Lord at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb at this time.

116 posted on 07/10/2007 9:04:56 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 115 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe
There are only two sides in this battle. Those who follow Christ and those who follow the world. Those who follow Christ will not follow the beast. They belong to Jesus. Those who choose to reject Christ will, by default, follow the beast.

Yes, there are only two sides. The Christians that "reject" Christ do not choose to reject Christ knowingly - they believed the lie. That is what is so sad.

Who were the "Thy people" mentioned in Daniel? Was it the gentiles? No. It was the Jews and the Nation of Israel.

The Jews are not the "House" of Israel, the 12 tribes. The "Nation" of Israel wasn't founded until 1948. Those mentioned in Rev.7:4 are "of all the tribes of the children of Israel". The Jews, the tribe of Judah, are only one of those tribes.

117 posted on 07/10/2007 10:33:40 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 116 | View Replies]

To: tnarg; Thinkin' Gal
The ‘Rapture’ is probably Jezebels greatest work.

Revelation 2

18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,

‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

Also: Proverbs 7

118 posted on 07/10/2007 10:49:16 AM PDT by Jeremiah Jr (Saturn is in Leo)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe; Ping-Pong; blue-duncan; xzins

At the same time as the Chapter 7 sealing of the 144,000 Jews is taking place on earth, there is also the identification of the white-robed, blood-purchased throng in Chapter 7. This throng is from every nation,people, tribe, language: that is, Gentile believers in Christ.


119 posted on 07/10/2007 11:05:11 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 116 | View Replies]

To: Iscool; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; Seven_0; Jeremiah Jr; xzins
"Clouds", as used here is just an expression that means in a big crowd, as a cloud of locusts.".....I'd like to think that clouds means,,,clouds...And air,,,is air...The translaters could just as well as said a 'cloud of saints if that's what they meant...I would have if that's what I'd meant...

I probably would have too Iscool, but Paul didn't. He used that same expression in another verse, it was just his manner of speech: Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (Heb.12:1)

"1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.....This is a physical resurrection as well as a spirital resurrection"...

It is my belief that Paul tells us differently in the following verses:

1Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another
42.So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised incorruption.
44.It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

One other verse to consider in all of this is Ezekiel 13:20. Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; 'Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

Could that be a reference to rapture?

120 posted on 07/10/2007 1:10:21 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 103 | View Replies]

To: Ping-Pong
The Christians that "reject" Christ do not choose to reject Christ knowingly - they believed the lie.

There is not such thing as a Christian who rejects Christ.

Those mentioned in Rev.7:4 are "of all the tribes of the children of Israel". The Jews, the tribe of Judah, are only one of those tribes.

Where do you get the idea that "Jews" are only those people descended from the Tribe of Judah? That might come as a surprise to some of my Jewish friends whose last names are Levi and Benjamin and Rubin.

121 posted on 07/10/2007 1:17:37 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 117 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe; Iscool; blue-duncan; Seven_0; xzins
Thank you for those commentaries. It is interesting to read others ideas.

As Christ is related to God, so is Antichrist to Satan, his visible embodiment and manifestation: Satan works through him. Rev_13:2, "The dragon gave him (the beast) his power . . . seat . . . great authority."

The antichrist (which was mistranslated and should read instead-of-Christ) is a role Satan assumes. They are one and the same. In Rev. 13:2 the dragon (Satan) gives power to the "beast", which is the one world system, political power. The anti-christ is the false prophet, the religous entity. It's Satan playing like he is Jesus.

At the 2nd Advent, Christ takes care of them: And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev.19:20)

Jesus throws both of those roles of Satan's into the fire. Satan will never be able to use that religious and political power again. Satan himself is not killed but held through the millennium (Rev.20:2-3)

Understanding that, I find I can't agree with the references you gave me. When you study the 11Thess.2:9 verse it tells me that it is Christ that comes after the working of Satan.

122 posted on 07/10/2007 1:40:37 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 104 | View Replies]

To: Ping-Pong
Understanding that, I find I can't agree with the references you gave me. When you study the 11Thess.2:9 verse it tells me that it is Christ that comes after the working of Satan.

Show me one legitimate commentary that agrees with you.

123 posted on 07/10/2007 1:49:17 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 122 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe; Diego1618; Seven_0; Iscool; xzins; blue-duncan
There is not such thing as a Christian who rejects Christ.

They don't realize they are P-Marlowe. They beleive they are following Christ. That is how good Satan is at what he does. That is what we are warned about in many scriptures.

Where do you get the idea that "Jews" are only those people descended from the Tribe of Judah? That might come as a surprise to some of my Jewish friends whose last names are Levi and Benjamin and Rubin.

It is an interesting study P-Marlowe and I believe that understanding the difference lets us know who the prophecies are written to.

There are many references to the separate houses. One of those is found in Jeremiah:

36:3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them;......
31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My People.

Your Jewish friends may not realize the difference in the houses, as many Christians do not, but it is true.

124 posted on 07/10/2007 1:58:27 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 121 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe
Show me one legitimate commentary that agrees with you.

I can't. I don't study different commentaries. At present I'm following the "take heed and follow no man" warning Christ gave us. When, and if, I feel well enough founded in His Word, then I will try to branch out. Until then, that is what the scripture tells me.

125 posted on 07/10/2007 2:02:43 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 123 | View Replies]

To: Ping-Pong; blue-duncan; xzins
I can't. I don't study different commentaries. At present I'm following the "take heed and follow no man" warning Christ gave us

I take it then that you have copies of the original manuscripts for all the scriptures and you are fluent in Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek?

If you use a translation, then you are, by default, following some man or men.

While the Holy spirit teaches us all things, we are expected to test all things and to study to shew ourselves approved.

You are coming up with your interpretation of that passage based solely upon your understanding of the English grammar and your assumption that the translator was in agreement with your rather tortured grammatical interpretation of the English translation.

The fact of the matter is that NOBODY agrees with you on this one. So either you are a prophet on a mission from God to straighten us all out, or you are probably wrong. I'm going to go with the latter.

When, and if, I feel well enough founded in His Word, then I will try to branch out. Until then, that is what the scripture tells me.

No that is what you are telling you. The scriptures are saying something entirely different. If you don't believe me, then check with the experts. God put experts on this earth for us to consult. What other purpose could they serve?

126 posted on 07/10/2007 2:55:58 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 125 | View Replies]

To: Ping-Pong; blue-duncan; xzins
There are many references to the separate houses. One of those is found in Jeremiah:

Marlowe shakes head....

Ok, ping, now for your history lesson.

The house of Israel is the nation consisting of all 12 Tribes. The house of Judah is one of the Tribes in the Nation of Israel. Israel is the Father. The Twelve tribes are all decendants of Israel. Jews are descendants of any of the Twelve Tribes of Israel:

Asher
Benjamin
Dan
Gad
Issachar
Joseph*
Judah
Levi
Naphtali
Reuben
Simeon
Zebulun

All references in the bible to the "House of Israel" refer to all twelve tribes of Hebrews or Jews. References to the "house of Judah" refer to the descendants of Judah. But all the descendants of Judah are in the house of Israel.

Maybe you should invest in a commentary. This "take heed and follow no man" stuff isn't working too well for you. Time to get some professional help.

127 posted on 07/10/2007 4:00:47 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 124 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe
I take it then that you have copies of the original manuscripts for all the scriptures and you are fluent in Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek?....If you use a translation, then you are, by default, following some man or men.

Of course you're right, I didn't think of it that way. I use the Companion Bible, E.W. Bullinger, which contain his notes. It is a standard KJ version so I'm also able to use the Strong's Concordance. (By the way, Bullinger believed in rapture).

You are coming up with your interpretation of that passage based solely upon your understanding of the English grammar and your assumption that the translator was in agreement with your rather tortured grammatical interpretation of the English translation.

I don't believe it was "tortured" at all, rather I felt that the commentary you gave me was. It just didn't make sense.

The fact of the matter is that NOBODY agrees with you on this one. So either you are a prophet on a mission from God to straighten us all out, or you are probably wrong. I'm going to go with the latter.

No problem from here. You aren't getting to the point of "questioning my intelligence or good will" are you? After all, we just disagree.

No that is what you are telling you. The scriptures are saying something entirely different. If you don't believe me, then check with the experts. God put experts on this earth for us to consult.

What experts? The Catholics, the Baptists, the Hindu's, those that believe in rapture, those that don't believe in rapture, the scientists, the expert atheist. Those that write the 10,000 different versions of the Bible. No P-Marlowe. My goal is to understand it from His Word. If you don't agree with the things I believe you should show me scripturally why you disagree, not only in the words of other men.

What other purpose could they serve (experts)?

To completly confuse as many people as possible.

128 posted on 07/10/2007 4:47:51 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 126 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe; Diego1618; xzins; blue-duncan; Iscool; Seven_0
You seem to be a nice guy that's just a little upset right now because of the rapture squabble. However, you are becoming more and more condescending. It isn't nice. I thought this is what you so disliked about a previous poster. I have been "turning the other cheek" but it is getting tiresome.

The house of Israel is the nation consisting of all 12 Tribes. The house of Judah is one of the Tribes in the Nation of Israel. Israel is the Father. The Twelve tribes are all decendants of Israel. Jews are descendants of any of the Twelve Tribes of Israel:

I'm afraid that isn't right. As I said, there are many references to the separate houses but they will be brought together again:

Ez.37:16. Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions; then take another stick, and write upon it, for Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17.And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
22.And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

All references in the bible to the "House of Israel" refer to all twelve tribes of Hebrews or Jews. References to the "house of Judah" refer to the descendants of Judah. But all the descendants of Judah are in the house of Israel.

I'm afraid that isn't correct either.

Maybe you should invest in a commentary. This "take heed and follow no man" stuff isn't working too well for you. Time to get some professional help.

Thank you for the suggestion she says as she turns her cheek yet once again.

129 posted on 07/10/2007 5:07:38 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 127 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe; Ping-Pong
The house of Israel is the nation consisting of all 12 Tribes. The house of Judah is one of the Tribes in the Nation of Israel. Israel is the Father. The Twelve tribes are all descendants of Israel. Jews are descendants of any of the Twelve Tribes of Israel:

How then, do you reconcile [II Kings 16:1-6]? 1 In the seventeenth year of Pekah the son of Remaliah Ahaz the son of Jotham king of Judah began to reign. 2 Twenty years old was Ahaz when he began to reign, and reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem, and did not that which was right in the sight of the LORD his God, like David his father. 3 But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel. 4 And he sacrificed and burnt incense in the high places, and on the hills, and under every green tree. 5 Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him. 6 At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.

As you can see by this scripture the Jews are at war against Syria......and Israel. Does this mean, in your opinion, that the Jewish Judaites are at war with the Jewish Israelites.....or just how do you reconcile this?

[II Chronicles 11:1] And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he gathered of the house of Judah and Benjamin an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against Israel, that he might bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam.

The Southern Kingdom of Judah consisted of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and most of Levi. You can read about their return from Babylon in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah. You will not find one mention in those books of any other tribe of Israel as they had been exiled to Assyria about 125 years earlier. It was the writers of the books after the Babylonian Captivity who coined the term Jew....as someone belonging to the Tribe of Judah. You will not find in scripture any tribe of the Northern Kingdom being referred to as a Jew. They were Israelites! Jews were also Israelites, but not all Israelites were Jews.

130 posted on 07/10/2007 5:49:23 PM PDT by Diego1618
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 127 | View Replies]

To: Diego1618; Ping-Pong

You’re probably right


131 posted on 07/10/2007 6:23:45 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 130 | View Replies]

To: Diego1618; P-Marlowe; Ping-Pong
“You will not find in scripture any tribe of the Northern Kingdom being referred to as a Jew.”

Read the book of Esther. All of Israel in the many dispersions under Assyria, Syria or Chaldea are referred to as Jews since Persia controlled the entire middle east including Greece and Egypt. Ahaseurus’ edict took days to get to the farthest part of the kingdom so they extended the time for retribution. It was not just Judah, Benjamin and Levi that they were looking for but all of Israel in exile and they were called Jews.

Apollos born in Alexandria was called a Jew. Aquilla born in Pontus was a Jew. Sceva born in Ephesus was a Jew as were the vagabonds. John calls the Passover and the feast of tabernacles “Jewish” feast and the religion of the temple and synagogues, “Jewish”. It is utter nonsense to make any difference between the tribes in the new covenant since their is no distinction between Jew and gentile until the end times when god makes a differentiation by calling out 12,000 from each tribe of Israel.

132 posted on 07/10/2007 7:02:19 PM PDT by blue-duncan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 130 | View Replies]

To: Diego1618; P-Marlowe; Ping-Pong

“It was the writers of the books after the Babylonian Captivity who coined the term Jew....as someone belonging to the Tribe of Judah.”

Along with Esther perhaps one should read Jeremiah 40:11-12, “Likewise when all the Jews that were in Moab, and among the Ammonites, and in Edom, and that were in all the countries, heard that the king of Babylon had left a remnant of Judah, and that he had set over them Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan; Even all the Jews returned out of all places whither they were driven, and came to the land of Judah, to Gedaliah, unto Mizpah, and gathered wine and summer fruits very much.”

This was written before the return from exile and the dispersions were under the Assyrians since Chaldea took the exiles to Babylon.


133 posted on 07/10/2007 7:12:39 PM PDT by blue-duncan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 130 | View Replies]

To: blue-duncan; Diego1618; Ping-Pong
It was not just Judah, Benjamin and Levi that they were looking for but all of Israel in exile and they were called Jews.

Golly, maybe I wasn't wrong.

134 posted on 07/10/2007 7:14:49 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 132 | View Replies]

To: tnarg

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Now answer this question, who is going to make up the army Christ leads to defeat the minions of Satan if we have to go through Tribulation? It won’t be the those saved out of Tribulation, so it would stand to reason that it would be us. So, how do we get to Heaven in order to come back with Christ?


135 posted on 07/10/2007 7:56:54 PM PDT by swmobuffalo (The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: blue-duncan; Ping-Pong; P-Marlowe
Along with Esther perhaps one should read Jeremiah 40:11-12, “Likewise when all the Jews that were in Moab, and among the Ammonites, and in Edom, and that were in all the countries, heard that the king of Babylon had left a remnant of Judah, and that he had set over them Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan; Even all the Jews returned out of all places whither they were driven, and came to the land of Judah, to Gedaliah, unto Mizpah, and gathered wine and summer fruits very much.”

My sources tell me that Esther was written sometime after the return from Babylon as the events spoken of took place around 486-465 B.C. The Persian capital was called "Shusan" (Susa) and this was during the reign of Ahasueras....usually known as Xerxes by the Greeks. The traditional view of the date of Esther is 465-424 B.C. during the reign of "Xerxes" Longimanus and Josephus concurs with this date. The Babylonian exile was commonly thought to have occurred about 595 B.C. and and the return 70 years later would have been 525 B.C. Not all of the Jews returned to Judah after receiving permission to do so....and Mordecai is a good example.

[Esther 2:5-7] Now in Shushan the palace there was a certain Jew, whose name was Mordecai, the son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, a Benjamite. Who had been carried away from Jerusalem with the captivity which had been carried away with Jeconiah king of Judah, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away. And he brought up Hadassah, that is, Esther, his uncle's daughter: for she had neither father nor mother, and the maid was fair and beautiful; whom Mordecai, when her father and mother were dead, took for his own daughter.

As I said in my earlier post, The Kingdom of Judah (Jews) consisted of the Tribes of Judah, Benjamin and most of Levi.

You are correct in that the King of Babylon left a remnant in Judah during the captivity. This was not the case during the Assyrian exile....all were taken. [II Kings 17:18] Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only. And........[II Kings 17:22-24] For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them. Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day. And the king of Assyria brought men from Babylon, and from Cuthah, and from Ava, and from Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel: and they possessed Samaria, and dwelt in the cities thereof.

Notice that the Northern Kingdom is still there....in Assyria when this book is written. The Books of the Kings and The Chronicles were written after the return from Babylon.

136 posted on 07/10/2007 8:03:22 PM PDT by Diego1618
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 133 | View Replies]

To: Diego1618; Ping-Pong; P-Marlowe
It still does not support your argument that “Jew” refers only to Judah, Benjamin and parts of Levi”. During the time of Esther, Israel was spread throughout all 127 provinces of Persia spreading throughout the Mediterranean area. “Jew” referred to all the dispersed tribes of Israel. Just because Mordecai was a Benjamite does not change the issue.

The passage from Jeremiah speaks of Jews who were driven out of the land. Judah was taken to Babylon in three exiles; these Jews were driven out into exile to Moab, Ammon and Edom which is more in keeping with the way the Assyrians moved people out of their lands and brought other conquered peoples in. That is how the Samaritans came into being by foreigners intermarrying with the Jews of northern Israel.

137 posted on 07/10/2007 8:41:29 PM PDT by blue-duncan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 136 | View Replies]

To: blue-duncan; Ping-Pong; P-Marlowe
The passage from Jeremiah speaks of Jews who were driven out of the land.

Here is what the passage from Jeremiah says. [Jeremiah 40:11-12] 11 Likewise when all the Jews that were in Moab, and among the Ammonites, and in Edom, and that were in all the countries, heard that the king of Babylon had left a remnant of Judah, and that he had set over them Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan; 12 Even all the Jews returned out of all places whither they were driven, and came to the land of Judah, to Gedaliah, unto Mizpah, and gathered wine and summer fruits very much.

Whither they were driven....Strongs #5080. nadach (naw-dakh')a primitive root; to push off; used in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively (to expel, mislead, strike, inflict, etc.banish, bring, cast down (out), chase, compel, draw away, drive (away, out, quite), fetch a stroke, force, go away, outcast, thrust away (out), withdraw. )

The first verse of Ruth gives us a good example of why Jews were in Moab. [Ruth 1:1] Now it came to pass in the days when the judges ruled, that there was a famine in the land. And a certain man of Bethlehemjudah went to sojourn in the country of Moab, he, and his wife, and his two sons.

When Moses had led the Israelites to the promised land he took the upper portion of Moab away from the Ammorite King, Sihon....who had taken the land earlier from the Moabites [Numbers 21:26] For Heshbon was the city of Sihon the king of the Amorites, who had fought against the former king of Moab, and taken all his land out of his hand, even unto Arnon. The river Arnon thus separated the Moab of Israel from the Moab of the Moabites. The reason the Israelites wanted this land (called the Plains of Moab) was because two of their tribes had a lot of cattle and these "Plains of Moab" were ideal for cattle raising. This area was located directly east of the Dead Sea on the eastern bank of the Jordan.

[Numbers 32:1-4] Now the children of Reuben and the children of Gad had a very great multitude of cattle: and when they saw the land of Jazer, and the land of Gilead, that, behold, the place was a place for cattle; The children of Gad and the children of Reuben came and spake unto Moses, and to Eleazar the priest, and unto the princes of the congregation, saying, Ataroth, and Dibon, and Jazer, and Nimrah, and Heshbon, and Elealeh, and Shebam, and Nebo, and Beon, Even the country which the LORD smote before the congregation of Israel, is a land for cattle, and thy servants have cattle If you check your Bible maps you will see that "Jazer and Gilead" are indeed on the Plains of Moab north of the River Arnon.

These were the lands of the two tribes of Israel, Rueben and Gad....so when Naomi and family went to Moab [Ruth 1:1], it was here they went to escape the famine......not to heathen Moab below the river Arnon. Many other families followed suit and this was how there came to be so many Jews living in the areas of Moab and Ammon according to Jeremiah. Ammon of course being the name for the Kingdom of the Ammorites who had previously taken this land from heathen Moab.

These Jews were not driven to these areas by the Assyrians....they went to escape nature...to live with their sister Israelites, Ruben and Gad. Ruth was an Israelite of Moab and when Boaz asks his servant "Who is this woman" and is told "she is a Moabitess" it's a mis-translation. {Ruth 2:5-6] Then said Boaz unto his servant that was set over the reapers, Whose damsel is this? And the servant that was set over the reapers answered and said, It is the Moabitish damsel that came back with Naomi out of the country of Moab. Ruth was called a Moabitess much the same way as an Englishmen moving to Australia.... would then be called an Australian. Moab retained the same name much the same way that California has retained the same name it was known by under Spanish/Mexican rule.

"Country of Moab" Strong's #7704. sadeh (saw-deh')or saday {saw-dah'-ee}; from an unused root meaning to spread out; a field (as flatcountry, field, ground, land, soil, X wild.) The country of Moab was referring to the "Plains of Moab"....not the Kingdom of Moab as most everyone seem to think. Samuel, when writing the Book of Ruth, used the word country as in "Countryside".

The Jews in those lands were the ones who returned to Judah after hearing the King of Babylon had left a remnant in Judah [Jeremiah 40:11-12].

To reiterate....you will not find anywhere in scripture folks of the Northern Kingdom of Israel being referred to as Jews. Yes, you find it many times in literature, but it is in error.

138 posted on 07/10/2007 9:49:51 PM PDT by Diego1618
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 137 | View Replies]

To: blue-duncan; xzins; Ping-Pong; Diego1618

The Ten Lost Tribes

by Chuck Missler

This month (June 1995) we celebrate the Feast of Shavout, or Pentecost. In Peter's famous speech on this day in Acts Chapter 2, he referred to both "Jews" and "Israel", which brings up an ubiquitous myth concerning the "Ten Lost Tribes" of Israel.

There are many groups that believe the northern tribes, separated during the rift between Rehoboam and Jeroboam after the death of Solomon (and subsequently taken captive by Assyria in 722 b.c.), later migrated to Europe and elsewhere.

The myth of the "Ten Lost Tribes" is the basis for "British- Israelism" and other colorful legends, but these stories have no real Biblical basis. They are based upon misconceptions derived from the misreading of various Bible passages.1

The Faithful Voted With Their Feet

Before the Assyrian captivity, substantial numbers from the northern tribes had identified themselves with the house of David.2 The rebellion of Jeroboam and subsequent crises caused many to repudiate the Northern Kingdom and unite with the Southern Kingdom in a common alliance to the house of David and a desire to worship the Lord in Jerusalem.3

In 930 b.c., Jeroboam ruled the Northern Kingdom from his capital in Samaria.4 When Jeroboam turned the Northern Kingdom to idolatry, the Levites (and others who desired to remain faithful) migrated south to Rehoboam.5

Horrified that Jeroboam had set up a rival religion with golden calf worship at Bethel and Dan, many Northerners moved south, knowing that the only place acceptable to God was the Temple on Mt. Moriah.6 Those who favored idolatry migrated north to Jeroboam.

Later, when Asa reigned as king in the south, another great company came from the north.7

Years after the deportation by Assyria, King Hezekiah of Judah issued a call to all Israel to come and worship in Jerusalem and celebrate the Passover.8 Eighty years later King Josiah of Judah also issued a call, and an offering for the Temple was received from "Manasseh and Ephraim and all the remnant of Israel...."9

Eventually, all 12 tribes were represented in the south. God even addresses the 12 tribes in the south: "Speak unto Rehoboam the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and to all Israel in Judah and Benjamin...."10

The "tribe of Judah" (2 Kings 17:18, et al.) is used idiomatically for the Southern Kingdom.11 When encountering the tribal designations, it is important to distinguish between the territories allocated to the tribes and the people themselves.

The Northern Kingdom Falls

In 724 b.c. Shalmaneser V besieged Samaria for three years. King Hoshea of Israel attempted to revolt against paying Assyrians annual tribute money--a treaty with Pharaoh of Egypt did not help 12--and Samaria, Jeroboam's capital, fell in 722 b.c. with Sargon II seizing power in 721 b.c.

The Assyrians implemented their infamous policy of mixing conquered peoples to keep them from organizing a revolt. Israelite captives were mixed with Persians and others, and strangers from far-off lands were resettled in Samaria. The resulting mixed, quasi-Jewish populations became the "Samaritans."13 (You can read about this "fall" in 2 Kings 17.)

Not all from the Northern Kingdom were deported. Archaeologists have uncovered annals of the Assyrian Sargon, in which he tells that he carried away only 27,290 people and 50 chariots.14

Population estimates of the Northern Kingdom at that time range from 400,000 to 500,000; less than 1/20th were deported-- mostly the leadership from the capital, Samaria. The rest of the Northern Kingdom were taken by Assyria as slaves, which were a valuable commodity. (It is difficult to view the Assyrians as careless enough to let their captives wander off to Europe.)

When the Babylonians take over Assyria, the descendants of the "ten tribes" were probably again commingled with the captives of Judah.

The Babylonians Take Over

When the Northern Kingdom went into captivity (722 b.c.), all 12 tribes were also represented in the south. When the Babylonians took the Southern Kingdom into captivity (586 b.c.), members of all 12 tribes of Israel were involved. Isaiah, prophesying to Judah, refers to them as the "House of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel..." (Isaiah 48:1; cf. vv. 12-14).

Post-Captivity Terminology

After the Babylonian captivity, the terms "Jew" and "Israelite" are used interchangeably. Ezra calls the returning remnant "Jews" 8 times and "Israel" 40 times. (Ezra also speaks of "all Israel": Ezra 2:70; 3:11; 8:35; 10:25, et al.) Nehemiah uses the term "Jew" 11 times and "Israel" 22 times. Nehemiah too speaks of "all Israel" being back in the land (Nehemiah 12:47). The remnant who returned from Babylon is represented as "the nation" (Malachi 1:1, et al.).

The same is true in the New Testament. Our Lord is said to have offered Himself to the nation, "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 10:5-6; 15:24). Tribes other than Judah are mentioned specifically in the New Testament as being represented in the land.15

Anna knew her tribal identity was of the tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36). Paul knew he was of the tribe of Benjamin, a "Jew" and an "Israelite" (Romans 11:1). The New Testament speaks of "Israel" 75 times and uses the word "Jew" 174 times.16

At the Feast of Pentecost Peter cries, "Ye men of Judea" (Acts 2:14), "ye men of Israel..." (Acts 2:22), and "All the house of Israel" (Acts 2:36).

Regathered as One

Ezekiel 36 and 37, the Dry Bones Vision, declares that Judah (Jews) and Israel (10 tribes) shall be joined as one in the regathering.17 This is true today. (The total physical descendants were not the people to whom the promises were made [Romans 9:4-7].)

Anti-Semitism

Accompanying some of the legends of the so-called "Ten Lost Tribes" are aspersions on the present State of Israel and the people being regathered in the Land. These various theories such as "British Israelism" are by their nature anti-Semitic because they deny the Jewish people their proper place in the plan of God. Let's remember that Genesis 12:3 has never been repealed!

Israel is being regathered in the land just as God has announced.18 There is yet to come an event which will awaken them to realize that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob once again has His hand upon them (Ezekiel 38, 39). I believe this event could happen at any moment. 19

The Throne of David was promised to the Son of Mary (Luke 1:32). I believe His taking possession of it is on the near horizon. Maranatha!

Sources:

  1. Lewis, David Allen, Can Israel Survive in a Hostile World?, New Leaf Press, 1993.
  2. Scofield, C.I., The New Scofield Study Bible, notes on 2 Kings 17:23.
This article was originally published in the
June 1995 Personal Update NewsJournal.

For a FREE 1-Year Subscription, click here.


**NOTES**

  1. 2 Kings 17:7-23; 2 Chronicles 6:6-11, etc.
  2. 1 Kings 12:16-20; 2 Chronicles 11:16-17.
  3. 2 Chronicles 19:4; 30:1, 10-11, 25-26; 34:5- 7, 22; 35:17-18.
  4. 1 Kings 11:43-12:33.
  5. 2 Chronicles 11:14-17.
  6. Deuteronomy 12:5-7; 16:2-6; Isaiah 18:7.
  7. 2 Chronicles 15:9.
  8. Chronicles 30:5-6, 10-11, 21.
  9. 2 Chronicles 34:9.
  10. 2 Chronicles 11:3.
  11. Cf. 1 Kings 11:13, 32.
  12. 2 Kings 18:2.
  13. John 4:20-22.
  14. Biblical Archaeology, VI, 1943, page 58.
  15. Matthew 4:13, 15; Luke 2:36; Acts 4:36; Philipians 3:5; "the twelve tribes," Acts 26:7; James 1:1.
  16. Acts 21:39; 22:3; Romans 11:1; 2 Corinthians 4 11:22; Philipians 3:5, etc.
  17. Ezekiel 37:16-17, 21-22.
  18. Ezekiel 36, 37; Isaiah 11:11, et al.
  19. SeeThe Magog Invasion Audio Book for more information on the predicted invasion of Israel and its role in the end times.

139 posted on 07/10/2007 10:14:52 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 137 | View Replies]

To: blue-duncan
However, when the passage is clear to search for the esoteric to satisfy preconceived ideas is to turn the scriptures over to the professionals and the unscrupulous thus denying the perspicuity of the word.

Things that are clear to us may not be clear to others and things that are difficult to understand today may be easy to understand in the future. Many Christians are content to receive only the milk. They are not willing to make the effort to receive the meat that would choke the babe in Christ. Scripture will always be esoteric because the author has packed it so full of treasure that a lifetime is not sufficient to receive it all.
140 posted on 07/10/2007 10:15:44 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 112 | View Replies]

To: CA Conservative

The wrath of God and the persecution of believers are two different things. There is persecution now but there will come a time of global intense persecution ....AND then the Lord Who will catch us up into the air with Him on His way down.....


141 posted on 07/10/2007 11:01:15 PM PDT by free_life
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: free_life

Hebrews 12:1 tells us of a great cloud of witnesses = those already with Jesus who come down with Him when He catches us up with Him on the way down.


142 posted on 07/10/2007 11:29:02 PM PDT by free_life
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 141 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe; Diego1618; blue-duncan; xzins
There are many groups that believe the northern tribes, separated during the rift between Rehoboam and Jeroboam after the death of Solomon (and subsequently taken captive by Assyria in 722 b.c.), later migrated to Europe and elsewhere.

It is believed because it happened. It is history. They did not return to their homeland but were dispersed as God wished them to be.

Isa.14:1For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

Of course they "migrated to Europe and elsewhere".

The myth of the "Ten Lost Tribes" is the basis for "British- Israelism" and other colorful legends, but these stories have no real Biblical basis. They are based upon misconceptions derived from the misreading of various Bible passages.1

This expert is mistaken. It is not a myth and the Bible is laden with God telling us exactly how and why it happened. Please study it yourself and don't listen to "experts" only.

Anti-Semitism ....Accompanying some of the legends of the so-called "Ten Lost Tribes" are aspersions on the present State of Israel and the people being regathered in the Land. These various theories such as "British Israelism" are by their nature anti-Semitic because they deny the Jewish people their proper place in the plan of God. Let's remember that Genesis 12:3 has never been repealed!

That tag, "anti-Semitism", is used by those that are not willing to understand or are unable to understand and holds no validity at all. They try to stamp it with an evil name to discredit the truth. How would anyone be anti-Semitic when discussing the 12 tribes. How could it possible "deny the Jewish people their proper place".

143 posted on 07/11/2007 4:34:51 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 139 | View Replies]

To: Ping-Pong; P-Marlowe; Diego1618; blue-duncan; xzins
There are no lost tribes of Israel. When Jeroboam I set up his idols, representatives of all the tribes moved to the Kingdom of Judah and intermingled with them. The blood lines of all tribes are interwoven for the rest of history. There are no lost tribes.

2 Chronicles 13 The priests and Levites from all their districts throughout Israel sided with him. 14 The Levites even abandoned their pasturelands and property, and came to Judah and Jerusalem because Jeroboam and his sons had rejected them as priests of the Lord. 15 And he appointed his own priests for the high places and for the goat and calf idols he had made. 16 Those from every tribe of Israel who set their hearts on seeking the Lord, the God of Israel, followed the Levites to Jerusalem to offer sacrifices to the Lord, the God of their fathers.

144 posted on 07/11/2007 4:52:30 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 143 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe; Diego1618; xzins; blue-duncan; Iscool
I realized I didn't answer your post #100. Some things have been discussed in other posts but some were left open.

All that God needs to do to "send you a strong delusion" is to simply stop working in your life and leave you to your own devices.

I don't believe that is what He is saying. I know you don't want to call it a test but essentially that is what it is. Perhaps He wants to see who read the letter He sent. We will all, if we are living, experience that "test". In a way it could be, as you said, "leaving us to our own devices", if those strong delusions are made up of man's own devices, man's own ideas, man's own traditions.

The belief in the rapture is simply our hope that we will not be present during the wrath that is to come. If we are here during that day of wrath, then we'll just have to deal with it. If we are taken up to the Marriage Supper before that happens, then I guess we'll just have to deal with that.

Much of what He tells us is to prepare us for the time of the end. We have work to do. Why would he be so explicit in instructing us if He was going to take us away? In the middle of those instructions, in Matthew 24, verse 13.But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. The end of what? The end of this age. He wants us to endure through that and if we are sealed with His Word we can do that, we will not be misled.

Baloney. I believe it. But not with every fiber of my being, that's for sure. By accusing those who believe it as believing in a lie, I would venture to guess that you believe in a post tribulation rapture "with every fiber or your being." Otherwise, you would not be claiming that pre-tribulationists are being deliberately deluded by God so that they can believe the lie.

Perhaps you don't believe like that but many do. They will not listen to anything but that. When I first tried to speak to my sister-in-law about why I didn't believe in rapture she just countered with, "but you need to hear my preacher". The first warning Jesus gave us when telling us about the end of the world was this, "And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."(Matt.24:4)

What I believe, with every fiber of my being, is that Jesus will come again at His 2nd. Advent. I don't term that rapture.

"God tells us that those that believe the lie have pleasure in it"....Boy you are really taking that out of context. It is those who have pleasure in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS that will believe the lie in 2 Thess 2:10. Now as I said before, unless you are willing to say that everyone who believes in a pre-trib rapture "takes pleasure in unrighteousness", then I think you ought to stop using that verse to condemn us. It has nothing to do with eschatology. It has to do with soteriology.

I don't believe that is what the scripture tells us.

11Thess.2:12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Doesn't that verse mean that the unrighteousness that causes the damnation is that they believed the lie?

Get a grip Ping. This issue is not life or death.

It could mean spiritual death or spiritual life.

145 posted on 07/11/2007 5:45:04 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 100 | View Replies]

To: Ping-Pong
It is believed because it happened.

So, are you a believer in British Israelism?

146 posted on 07/11/2007 6:10:10 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 143 | View Replies]

To: Ping-Pong; blue-duncan; xzins
When I first tried to speak to my sister-in-law about why I didn't believe in rapture she just countered with, "but you need to hear my preacher". The first warning Jesus gave us when telling us about the end of the world was this, "And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."(Matt.24:4)

Maybe your sister-in-law is heeding that advise, eh?

I don't believe that is what the scripture tells us.

Well, you're the expert, eh?

Doesn't that verse mean that the unrighteousness that causes the damnation is that they believed the lie?

No, it means that they believed the lie because they had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It could mean spiritual death or spiritual life.


147 posted on 07/11/2007 6:27:07 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 145 | View Replies]

To: Ping-Pong; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan
take heed that no man deceive you...

What is the immediately following verse? Does it speak to the above piece from Matt 24:4?

148 posted on 07/11/2007 6:31:22 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 147 | View Replies]

To: blue-duncan; P-Marlowe; Seven_0; xzins; Diego1618; Iscool
Blue-duncan, I'm afraid I had overlooked your post. Please forgive the delay in answering.

Let’s see, clouds are groups of people; air is spirit; rising first means coming down; the restrainer of evil is Michael; and the one who comes according to the workings of Satan is Jesus. All of this truth in code to a brand new church that Paul had only a short time to establish and a Gentile one at that

It was not just written to them but to us, those of the end generation.

when all he has to do is use the usual meaning of words they would understand, like clouds mean clouds and air means air and we will rise to meet Jesus who is bringing the dead in Christ with Him to be united with their resurrection bodies. Now that is a heck of a lot clearer than the tortuous route of symbol.

The word "clouds" he used was his figure of speech for a group of people. As far as "air", I believe he did use it properly, as pneuma, or spirit but it was translated as air and it has been misunderstood to be atmosphere.

I believe he was clear in what he said, or at least as clear as Paul is in many of his writings. Even Peter told us that Paul is at times hard to understand.(2Peter 3:16)

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

What Paul wrote has been interpreted incorrectly to mean rapture. If that idea had never been put forward would you, in a million years, have the idea of rapture pop into your head when reading 1Thess.4:?

Gentiles would have no knowledge of Michael, the prince of Israel. He is only mentioned twice in the Old Testament in Daniel 10. Why would baby Gentile Christians jump to the conclusion that “he that restrains” would be an angel when they have been taught that God, the Holy Spirit is present with them to lead, comfort and guide them unlike His operation during the time of Daniel? Is the Holy Spirit incapable of multi-tasking?

The question should be are we now capable of understanding that Michael is the one that restrains him, as God tells us?

How can you warn with such an uncertain sound?

I try to use only His scriptures as I know they are certain.

...Ping

149 posted on 07/11/2007 6:42:14 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 107 | View Replies]

To: Ping-Pong; blue-duncan; Seven_0; xzins; Diego1618; Iscool
The word "clouds" he used was his figure of speech for a group of people. As far as "air", I believe he did use it properly, as pneuma, or spirit but it was translated as air and it has been misunderstood to be atmosphere.

Really?

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:9-11 KJV)

150 posted on 07/11/2007 6:53:11 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 149 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 801-838 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson