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Preaching a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Weakens the Church
ArriveNet ^ | July 7, 2007 | J. Grant Swank, Jr.

Posted on 07/07/2007 7:48:37 PM PDT by tnarg

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To: P-Marlowe; Diego1618; xzins; blue-duncan
"It is believed because it happened.".....So, are you a believer in British Israelism?

I don't have a name for it. I do believe the 10 lost tribes migrated over the Caucasus Mountains (caucasian), settled Europe and then on to England and America. They were the Saxons (Isaac's Sons), Celts, etc. I believe that.

Maybe your sister-in-law is heeding that advise, eh?

P Marlowe, I only read her the Olivet prophecies in which Christ tells us what to do. In other words, I read her the Words of God, not mine.

"I don't believe that is what the scripture tells us.".....Well, you're the expert, eh?

I don't think any of us are experts. We are all trying to understand. Some do seem to know more than others about His Word and those are the ones I try to learn from.

No, it means that they believed the lie because they had pleasure in unrighteousness.

We all may see it differently but to me the lie is their pleasure and if they choose to believe it they are unrighteous.

151 posted on 07/11/2007 6:54:07 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: P-Marlowe
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven

That same "cloud" he went up on is the one that took Ezekiel. There are many references to those "clouds" in the Bible but I don't believe that is what Paul meant. I believe he meant it as he used the word in Heb.12:1 - ...compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses...

152 posted on 07/11/2007 7:08:48 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong
I don't have a name for it. I do believe the 10 lost tribes migrated over the Caucasus Mountains (caucasian), settled Europe and then on to England and America. They were the Saxons (Isaac's Sons), Celts, etc. I believe that.

The word 'Saxon' is believed to be derived from the word seax, meaning a variety of single-edged knives.

153 posted on 07/11/2007 7:12:18 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Ping-Pong
I believe he meant it as he used the word in Heb.12:1

Well, you're the expert.

154 posted on 07/11/2007 7:13:22 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: xzins
"take heed that no man deceive you..."What is the immediately following verse? Does it speak to the above piece from Matt 24:4?

I'm afraid I don't understand your question Xzins. Yes, I believe verse 5 does refer to those that deceive.

5.For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

They come "saying I am Christ", in His name, meaning - they come as Christians and they shall deceive many.

155 posted on 07/11/2007 7:15:25 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: free_life
The wrath of God and the persecution of believers are two different things.

I understand that, and I was specifically referring to the Wrath of God that will be poured out on the earth during the Great Tribulation. If one believes that the Church will be raptured at the end of the Tribulation, or does not believe the rapture will occur at all, then one must accept that the Church will also suffer God's Wrath, since many of the judgments are world-wide in scope. There will also be persecution of believers during the tribulation, but my reading of Scripture seems to indicate that these will be those who become believers during the Tribulation.

156 posted on 07/11/2007 7:33:56 AM PDT by CA Conservative
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To: Ping-Pong; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan

If the verse says that they say, “I am Christ.” then that is an awful lot different than saying “I am a Christian.”

We can’t make the scriptures say what we want them to say. They say what they say.


157 posted on 07/11/2007 7:44:06 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: tnarg
I guess I could never see why folks get so wrapped up about labels such as "pre-tribulation rapturists."

Such hair-splitting doesn't seem to square well with this:

I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. (Luke 10:21)

And:

Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 18:3)

Jesus is telling us something we're prone to forgetting: the fundamental elements of the faith are things that are accessible even to children. Jesus came for the likes of those -- and the church should focus on those elements.

By contrast, "the wise" are those who try to complicate the faith so that only specialists can understand it -- they're the ones who focus on the arcane problems associated with "pre-tribulation rapturists," and the like.

Look at the number of words expended by Mr. Swank who, instead of teaching the Gospel, spends his time promoting this very narrow controversy. It's things like this that prompted James to note:

Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.... Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. (James 3:1, 13-18)

Mr. Swank isn't the only teacher who's a problem here ... somebody else has been teaching the stuff he's arguing against.

But by singling out those naughty "pre-tribulation rapturists" in this us-vs.-them manner, Mr. Swank is, nevertheless, part of the problem.

158 posted on 07/11/2007 8:27:27 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; Diego1618; Seven_0
We can’t make the scriptures say what we want them to say. They say what they say.

Thank you Xzins, I see what you mean now.

I used to see the scripture that way too. Now I read it as being in His name, means they are saying they are CHRIST-men. I know that Satan comes saying he is Christ but the phrase here is "many shall come". Who would believe a whole mess of folks were Christ Himself? (that is, except for that man in Brazil saying he is Christ and he has lots of followers).....

I believe they "say what they say" too, but we all seem to see it in a different way. To me the answer to that is to take it as a whole. Throughout the Bible we are warned of false teachers and preachers and for that reason I understand this particular scripture the way I do.

159 posted on 07/11/2007 8:47:22 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: xzins; Ping-Pong; blue-duncan; P-Marlowe
Those from every tribe of Israel who set their hearts on seeking the Lord, the God of Israel, followed the Levites to Jerusalem to offer sacrifices to the Lord, the God of their fathers.

You are absolutely correct. People from all of the Ten Northern Tribes resettled themselves in Judah. They assimilated and became known as Jews also.... as did Benjamin and Levi. The percentage of the total who did come to Judah is unknown....only those who set their hearts on seeking The Lord. The preponderant majority although remained in the north and this is testified to in scripture as well as secular history. The event you speak happened during the reign of Jeroboam and surely you must realize that this was long before the Assyrian exile.

[II Kings 17:22-23] Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day. And the king of Assyria brought men from Babylon, and from Cuthah, and from Ava, and from Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel: and they possessed Samaria, and dwelt in the cities thereof. As I mentioned somewhere earlier The Books of the Kings and Chronicles were written sometime after the return from Babylon. This would have been at least two hundred years after the Assyrian exile.

[Josephus, Antiquities, Book XI, Chapter V, Paragraph 2], First century A.D. : And when these Jews had understood what piety the king had towards God, and what kindness he had for Esdras, they were all greatly pleased; nay, many of them took their effects with them, and came to Babylon, as very desirous of going down to Jerusalem; but then the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that country; wherefore there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers. The two tribes subject to the Romans of course were Judah and Benjamin....Levi, being a priestly tribe, was counted among Judah and Benjamin.

If you still want to say the Northern Ten Tribes are not lost to history (they weren't during the first century) you are not looking at the facts.

160 posted on 07/11/2007 8:48:21 AM PDT by Diego1618
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins; Diego1618; blue-duncan
"I believe he meant it as he used the word in Heb.12:1".....Well, you're the expert.

That isn't very fair, is it P-Marlowe. You told me what you believed and I didn't ridicule you, now did I?

The word 'Saxon' is believed to be derived from the word seax, meaning a variety of single-edged knives.

It's certainly a possibility but in my "expert" opinion, and I am stipulating it is just an opinion - the Sax-Ons / Isaac Sons, makes a great deal of sense. Perhaps the Saxons were also known for carrying single-edged knives and that could be where that theory came from.

161 posted on 07/11/2007 8:57:11 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong; xzins; blue-duncan; Calvinist_Dark_Lord
That isn't very fair, is it P-Marlowe. You told me what you believed and I didn't ridicule you, now did I?

Indeed, but I didn't ridicule the experts.

I sometimes rely upon "experts". Especially in those areas (i.e., Greek grammar) where I have little or no personal knowledge.

Sometimes it is best to defer to people who know what they are talking about and then form our opinions on the meaning of certain passages. Many of these "experts" that you ridicule are men of good faith who have studied the scriptures dilligently for longer than you or I have been on the planet. They may not be right, but their work is worthy of consideration.

Whenever I come up with some oddball theory, I find it a good practice to consult with Gill, Clarke, Robinson, JF&B, K&D, Barnes, Thayer, Strong, Matthew Henry, John MacArthur and Calvinist Dark Lord to see whether or not anyone else on the planet is in agreement with my particular interpretation. If not, I tend to discard it as being vain.

I'm vain enough without thinking I'm smarter than those guys.

162 posted on 07/11/2007 9:29:28 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
Indeed, but I didn't ridicule the experts.

I didn't ridicule anyone. I did point out that there are experts of every ilk. I haven't studied that long but I do know when I listen to some of them that it is not what the scriptures say. I don't just mean that I disagree with what they say but that what they say disagrees with scripture. I enjoy learning from others, many here on Free Republic, as they seem to have a lot to offer.

I'm vain enough without thinking I'm smarter than those guys.

I don't believe anyone here thinks they are smarter than anyone else, including the experts. My point is just that the experts are all over the map in their beliefs. It is total confusion, at least it is to me.

......Ping

163 posted on 07/11/2007 9:50:06 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong
My point is just that the experts are all over the map in their beliefs. It is total confusion, at least it is to me.

In post 104 I provided you with commentary from 4 (actually 7) commentators who were all in agreement with each other in their disagreement with your (rather tortured) interpretation of II Thess.2:9.

I asked if you could provide me with one commentator who agreed with you, and you couldn't. Yet you persisted in your insistence that you were right and that the purpose that those experts served was "To completly confuse as many people as possible." (perhaps said in jest).

The commentators are fairly consistent in their interpretation of II Thess 2:9. It appears that in regard to II Thess 2:9, it is fairly clear that your interpretation is not shared by anyone who has actually done a detailed study of the verse. So either you are smarter than all the experts or you are wrong.

I've been wrong before.

Is it possible that you are wrong in your interpretation?

If not, why not?

164 posted on 07/11/2007 10:24:59 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: r9etb
I guess I could never see why folks get so wrapped up about labels such as "pre-tribulation rapturists."

It's not the labels that concern us...

The Catholics (and others) teach that the Tribulation has already passed...They claim that Jesus Christ already showed up the 2nd time Spiritually...And that Jesus is now reigning on earth leading His Kingdom...

They, the Catholic church is the 'New Israel' under the 'new' covenant...

The Post-Millenialists as I understand it figure they'll go on thru the Great Tribulation but somehow miss the Wrath of God...They as well, reject the Restoration of Israel (the real Israel) as far as I know...

Pre-Millenialists believe the bible when it says Jesus will show up from Heaven WITH the saints to combat Satan and protect the Jewish remnant that survives the Great Tribulation...

There a myriad of details in this operation...

And why is it important to get worked up about the Pre-Millenial position??? The main theme of the bible is the Kingdom...With Jesus Christ as it's King...The O.T. is chock full of information of the restoration of Israel to the Kingdom...

The United States is in the position to protect the Jews as well as take their side of the coming conflict...

Although the bible says ALL Nations will turn against Israel, and be judged accordingly, individual Christians must side with Israel...We must recognize that God is not done with His chosen people, Israel...

165 posted on 07/11/2007 10:26:58 AM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
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To: Iscool
It's not the labels that concern us...

Well, actually, yes, it is the labels, and you've kindly provided us with a nice list of "bad labels" to prove the point.

But here's the deal: Jesus doesn't much care about what particular labels you want to apply. What He said was for us to take up our crosses and follow Him.

What we're supposed to be worrying about is stuff like this:

For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.' (Matt.25:35-40)

He also said not to waste time on worrying about whether or when the end comes -- he just said to be ready for it when it does come (see Matt. 25). And if, when it does come, you've taken up your cross and followed Him, you haven't got anything to worry about.

OTOH, note that Jesus didn't much care about your various "-ists" believe -- well, maybe He did, as far as the Scribes and Pharisees were concerned, but his point there is that they were missing the point, to everybody's detriment.

What this controversy seems to be about, is whether or not people will get hurt when He shows up again. Well, Jesus makes no bones about the fact that there is short-term cost to following Him -- what do you think "taking up your Cross" is supposed to mean, if not difficult times?

And none of this twaddle about pre-/post-millenialism adds a damned bit to our chances for salvation -- but it does injure the Body of Christ, which cannot be viewed kindly.

166 posted on 07/11/2007 11:05:55 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: Iscool
The Catholics (and others) teach that the Tribulation has already passed...They claim that Jesus Christ already showed up the 2nd time Spiritually...And that Jesus is now reigning on earth leading His Kingdom... They, the Catholic church is the 'New Israel' under the 'new' covenant...

I have not heard this before. Catholic believe Trib passed, Jesus 2nd time but only spiritually, and CC is the new israel. Got more info? Any sources? I am interested to know more.

167 posted on 07/11/2007 11:27:52 AM PDT by free_life
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To: P-Marlowe
The commentators are fairly consistent in their interpretation of II Thess 2:9. It appears that in regard to II Thess 2:9, it is fairly clear that your interpretation is not shared by anyone who has actually done a detailed study of the verse. So either you are smarter than all the experts or you are wrong.

I know I'm not smarter and I believe I'm not wrong so that just leaves - I believe they are wrong. If 100 men stand there and tell you the world is flat, after an exhaustive study, but God's Word told you the world was round who would you believe? I know that isn't quite fair as they are also using the Bible as reference but that is how I feel. I just do not agree with them.

"I've been wrong before"...... Is it possible that you are wrong in your interpretation?

Yes, of course it is possible. When I read it it seems to point to the One that comes after Satan, the One that will destroy him "with the brightness of His coming". To me it is Satan who has all power and signs and lying wonders and Christ will consume him with the "spirit of His mouth".

The only one that "comes after Satan" is Christ, so if not understood as I do it would have to be that the "him" in vs.9 is Satan himself who has given power to the anti-christ. That would make the two entities separate beings. To me, scripture tells us that they are one and the same. The anti-christ being the religious beast of Rev., a role Satan plays to fool mankind.

So, I could be wrong but it just wouldn't make sense to me.

the purpose that those experts served was "To completly confuse as many people as possible." (perhaps said in jest).

No, no jest was intended. I know that, God is not the author of confusion, but our different religions, interpretations, etc. can certainly confuse His words.

168 posted on 07/11/2007 11:36:55 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: attiladhun2
I am a modified dispensationalist who believes the pre-tribbies are holding to a doctrine that has almost no scriptural basis. Nothing in the Bible indicates the church in an Age of Apostasy will be “raptured” out and not face the winnowing process that has been the fate of Christians in every age.

You are not a dispensationalist at all if you think that the Church is going to go through the time of Jacobs trouble,(Jer.30) Daniels 70th week (Daniel 9).

The Church must be taken home before the Tribulation begins since the Tribulation is for the Jews, not the Church.

The Church returns with Christ in Rev.19 to set up His Millennial reign.

169 posted on 07/12/2007 4:28:11 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: P-Marlowe

Excellent post-thanks.


170 posted on 07/12/2007 4:32:22 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: attiladhun2
No one was “ratured” during Noah’s flood. Noah and his family went through the judgment, safe in the Ark of safety, just as also Christians go through tribulations of all kinds safe in the arms of the Savior.

Enoch was taken by God in Gen.5

171 posted on 07/12/2007 4:33:51 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: P-Marlowe
Amen!

This is just nonsense about the 'lost ten tribes' and the word Jew only refers to the Southern Kingdom.

172 posted on 07/12/2007 4:42:18 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: xzins

Amen.


173 posted on 07/12/2007 4:43:32 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: Diego1618
You are absolutely correct. People from all of the Ten Northern Tribes resettled themselves in Judah. They assimilated and became known as Jews also.... as did Benjamin and Levi. The percentage of the total who did come to Judah is unknown....only those who set their hearts on seeking The Lord. The preponderant majority although remained in the north and this is testified to in scripture as well as secular history. The event you speak happened during the reign of Jeroboam and surely you must realize that this was long before the Assyrian exile.

So?

That means that all of the tribes are represented by the term Jew.

174 posted on 07/12/2007 4:46:50 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: Iscool
Although the bible says ALL Nations will turn against Israel, and be judged accordingly, individual Christians must side with Israel...We must recognize that God is not done with His chosen people, Israel...

Amen.

Romans 11.

175 posted on 07/12/2007 4:57:36 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: Ping-Pong
Yes, of course it is possible. When I read it it seems to point to the One that comes after Satan, the One that will destroy him "with the brightness of His coming". To me it is Satan who has all power and signs and lying wonders and Christ will consume him with the "spirit of His mouth".

Rev.19 explains that the anti-Christ (who Satan indwelt) and the false Prophet are put alive into the Lake of Fire.

Satan is put into a bottomless pit for a 1,000 years (during the Millennial reign) and then released for a short time to deceive the nations again leading to the 'Gog-Magog' revolt.

After that is put down, he is put into the Lake of Fire, which was originally created for him (Matt.25).

You do not need to consult the 'experts' but you do need to consult all of the scripture.

176 posted on 07/12/2007 5:05:36 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: fortheDeclaration; attiladhun2; P-Marlowe; Diego1618
You do not need to consult the 'experts' but you do need to consult all of the scripture.

Where are we disagreeing? I said the same thing FTD. Because of those scriptures I see that it is Christ coming after Satan's lying wonders. As I said, I could certainly be wrong but that is what those scriptures say to me.

FTD wrote to attiladhun2: You are not a dispensationalist at all if you think that the Church is going to go through the time of Jacobs trouble,(Jer.30) Daniels 70th week (Daniel 9)..... The Church must be taken home before the Tribulation begins since the Tribulation is for the Jews, not the Church.

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Of course His children won't experience His wrath. He assures us of that. We are "saved out of it" by knowing His Word, knowing that the fake comes first and being prepared for it.

Rev.12:17 tells us that the dragon is coming to earth to, "make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.: That is us. We will be here. Also, please note Jer.30:3 - "My people Israel and Judah". There are two different houses.

Please explain to me why you believe Daniel 9 tells us the church will be taken home before the tribulation and why the "Jews" will experience it.

Atilladhun said: "No one was “raptured” during Noah’s flood. Noah and his family went through the judgment, safe in the Ark of safety, just as also Christians go through tribulations of all kinds safe in the arms of the Savior.".....FTD replied: Enoch was taken by God in Gen.5

I agree with Atilladhun. Noah was one of our examples and He gave us many. He will keep us safe during the time of trouble if we don't fall for Satan's lies and stay true to the true Christ. Enoch was "taken" by God, as was Elijah but Noah, Daniel, the 3 Hebrew children, God's children during the Exodus, were not. They endured as He wants us to. They went through the trouble with His protection.

This is just nonsense about the 'lost ten tribes' and the word Jew only refers to the Southern Kingdom.

Then you call His Word "nonsense". It is there and He wants us to understand.

177 posted on 07/12/2007 6:27:17 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: fortheDeclaration; Ping-Pong
So? That means that all of the tribes are represented by the term Jew.

No! What that means is that some Israelites from the Northern Kingdom decided they had enough and moved south to be with the Jews who at that time were observing God's laws. This is one of the reasons why: [I Kings 12:31-32] And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi. And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made.

And this is what subsequently happened in the North:[I Kings 14:15-16] For the LORD shall smite Israel, as a reed is shaken in the water, and he shall root up Israel out of this good land, which he gave to their fathers, and shall scatter them beyond the river, because they have made their groves, provoking the LORD to anger. And he shall give Israel up because of the sins of Jeroboam, who did sin, and who made Israel to sin. This is also why most of the Levites ended up in Judah....they had been spread evenly among the twelve tribes.

So....the Benjamites, most of the Levites and some of the folks from all the other tribes became known as Jews. Strong's #3064. Yhuwdiy (yeh-hoo-dee')a Jehudite (i.e. Judaite or Jew), or descendant of Jehudah (i.e. Judah (Jew)

The Israelites who stayed in the north retained that appellation (Israelite)...never being called Jews in scripture. I know some of you just have a burning desire to prove me wrong, but Biblically....you cannot.

[I Kings 12:21-24] And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah (Jehudite), with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon. But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying, Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and unto all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the remnant of the people, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel: return every man to his house; for this thing is from me. They hearkened therefore to the word of the LORD, and returned to depart, according to the word of the LORD. The people in the Northern Kingdom were never called "Jehudites"!

178 posted on 07/12/2007 2:01:47 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: fortheDeclaration
I AM a dispensationalist because all Christians are dispensationalists who believe that the Bible reveals various periods in salvation history in which God governed the world. These periods are characterized by covenants and promises and are usually accompanied by blood sacrifice. I am a modified dispensationalist because I see no evidence for a pre-tribulation rapture (and, in fact, see overwhelming evidence to the contrary), yet the basic dispensational structure revealed by Scripture is obvious.

If you read the Jeremiah passage in context, you will see it is NOT referring to a 7-year tribulation, but to the Babylonian Captivity. Also, the 70th week of Daniel could refer to a lot of things. I have concluded that Daniel was possibly foreseeing the 3 and 1/2 years of the Anointed One's earthly ministry, at the end of which He was cut-off (crucified) and the 7-year Jewish Revolt (66-73 A.D.) during which the Holy Place was destroyed halfway through it, another 3 and 1/2 years.

The trouble with most pre-tribbies is that they study the Bible, but are usually ignorant of its historical context.
179 posted on 07/12/2007 2:26:34 PM PDT by attiladhun2 (Islam is a despotism so vile that it would warm the heart of Orwell's Big Brother)
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To: P-Marlowe; Ping-Pong; fortheDeclaration; blue-duncan; xzins; Seven_0
I just read your article by Chuck Missler about the ten tribes. I'm sorry I had no time earlier. This statement by Mr. Missler caused me some concern: Not all from the Northern Kingdom were deported. Archaeologists have uncovered annals of the Assyrian Sargon, in which he tells that he carried away only 27,290 people and 50 chariots.

Now Mr. Missler can write anything he wants and I'm sure a great many people will "take it to the bank". He is known to be a man of God and this is what caused me the concern.

[II KIngs 17:6] In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes. And verse 18 tells us: Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only. We know from previous posts (and Holy Scripture) that the tribe of Judah now consisted of Judah, Benjamin, Most of Levi and some Israelites from all the other tribes who did not want to live under the ungodly rule of Jeroboam.

Since we all know Mr. Missler to be an honest man I guess we can just chalk this up to "Honest Error" since it disagrees with scripture.

Another thing also caught my eye.....:Eventually, all 12 tribes were represented in the south. God even addresses the 12 tribes in the south: "Speak unto Rehoboam the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and to all Israel in Judah and Benjamin...."

This is the passage in context: [I Kings 12:16-23] So when all Israel saw that the king hearkened not unto them, the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? neither have we inheritance in the son of Jesse: to your tents, O Israel: now see to thine own house, David. So Israel departed unto their tents. But as for the children of Israel which dwelt in the cities of Judah, Rehoboam reigned over them. Then king Rehoboam sent Adoram, who was over the tribute; and all Israel stoned him with stones, that he died. Therefore king Rehoboam made speed to get him up to his chariot, to flee to Jerusalem. So Israel rebelled against the house of David unto this day. And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only. And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon. But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying, Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and unto all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the remnant of the people, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel: return every man to his house; for this thing is from me. They hearkened therefore to the word of the LORD, and returned to depart, according to the word of the LORD.

Now....most students of the Bible know that Rehoboam reigned in Judah from 931-913 B.C. These same students of the word also know that the Assyrian deportation took place in 721 B.C. and the books writing about these events were written after the return of Judah from Babylon(525 B.C.)

Now, I'm not going to call Mr. Missler a liar....because I know him to be a man of God. I am going to say that Mr. Missler is being very disingenuous in his comment that "Eventually all 12 tribes were represented in the south." So what! The exile of the Northern Kingdom happened 200 years later! When the Jews returned from Babylon 400 years later they testify to the fact that Israel is still in Assyria! [II Kings 17:22-23] For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them; Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day.

By the way.....I'm not a British Israelite! I am a student of the Bible and tend to believe what it says! If you post anything else by Mr. Missler I probably won't take the time to read it. When scripture tells me that the Nation of Israel is still in captivity (525 B.C.) and secular history tells me they are still beyond the Euphrates (first century A.D./Josephus) it makes Mr. Missler's essay all the more asinine!

180 posted on 07/12/2007 10:01:34 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: Diego1618
The 12 tribes are still in existance and the Lord knows who they are no matter what they are called.

We know the tribe of Aser was present when the Lord was born (Lk.2:36)

So, you have four tribes mentioned in the New Testament.

The other 8 are known to God and are considered Jews since Judah is the leading tribe.

All of the tribes are represented again in the Millennial reign (Ezek.48)

In fact, James wrote his epistle to the '12 tribes', and I think the Apostle James might have had little bit more knowledge then you do on their existance.

181 posted on 07/12/2007 10:19:57 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: attiladhun2
I AM a dispensationalist because all Christians are dispensationalists who believe that the Bible reveals various periods in salvation history in which God governed the world. These periods are characterized by covenants and promises and are usually accompanied by blood sacrifice. I am a modified dispensationalist because I see no evidence for a pre-tribulation rapture (and, in fact, see overwhelming evidence to the contrary), yet the basic dispensational structure revealed by Scripture is obvious. If you read the Jeremiah passage in context, you will see it is NOT referring to a 7-year tribulation, but to the Babylonian Captivity. Also, the 70th week of Daniel could refer to a lot of things. I have concluded that Daniel was possibly foreseeing the 3 and 1/2 years of the Anointed One's earthly ministry, at the end of which He was cut-off (crucified) and the 7-year Jewish Revolt (66-73 A.D.) during which the Holy Place was destroyed halfway through it, another 3 and 1/2 years. The trouble with most pre-tribbies is that they study the Bible, but are usually ignorant of its historical context.

No, the crucial issue in Dispensationalism is not about believing that the Lord has given us various periods in salvation in which God governered the world.

The essential of Dispensationalism is understanding the difference between Israel and the Church.

The Church cannot be here for Jacobs trouble.

The Church is in heaven getting judged (1Cor.3, 2Cor.5:10, Rom.14:10) and comes back with the Lord in Rev.19 at the end of the Tribulation.

Trying to compare the destruction of the Temple in the 1st century to what Danial predicted is simply nonsense.

The Tribulation is spoken of the worst times in human history (Matt.24:21), and that hasn't happened yet and it certanily didn't happen in the 1st century!

The problem with the false dispensationalists/non-dispensationalists is that you don't believe what the Bible actually says.

182 posted on 07/12/2007 10:35:37 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: Diego1618
The Israelites who stayed in the north retained that appellation (Israelite)...never being called Jews in scripture. I know some of you just have a burning desire to prove me wrong, but Biblically....you cannot.

No one has any burning desire to prove you wrong since what you are saying is irrelevant to anything dealing with the 12 tribes of Israel.

God knows who and where they are now and they will be restored by tribe in the future. (Rev.7, Ezek.48)

Are you denying that?

183 posted on 07/12/2007 10:39:13 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: Ping-Pong
Believers today are not Jews, they are Christians, part of Christ's body (Eph.3) and His bride (Eph.5 and will be taken home before the time of Jacobs trouble (Jer.30:7).

That is the final week of Daniel's 70th week and it is for Israel (all 12 tribes) and they will be represented by 12,000 evangalists from each tribe (Rev.7).

184 posted on 07/12/2007 10:50:29 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: fortheDeclaration; attiladhun2
The essential of Dispensationalism is understanding the difference between Israel and the Church.

To do that you must understand the split in the houses of Israel and Judah to fully understand the prophecies concerning each of them.

The Church cannot be here for Jacobs trouble.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

All His children will be here, on earth.

The Church is in heaven getting judged (1Cor.3, 2Cor.5:10, Rom.14:10) and comes back with the Lord in Rev.19 at the end of the Tribulation.

Those scriptures do not mention anyone being judged in heaven. There, of course, will be a judgment and it is spoken of in Rev. 20:12:

And I saw the dead, small and great stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

There is also a judgment before the "great white throne judgement" which happens at the end of the millennium. That is the one at the beginning of the millennium, when Christ judges who to make war with (Rev.19:11). Both of those judgements take place here, on earth.

You stated that Rev.19 tells us that the Church comes back with Christ after the tribulation. The church spoken of there is, Rev.19:14:

And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

As well as building an army of believers here He has an army in heaven. Those that have preceeded us will be coming back. Those are the "armies which were in heaven".

The Tribulation is spoken of the worst times in human history (Matt.24:21), and that hasn't happened yet and it certainly didn't happen in the 1st century!

I agree with that completely.

185 posted on 07/13/2007 5:07:12 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong
[The essential of Dispensationalism is understanding the difference between Israel and the Church.]

To do that you must understand the split in the houses of Israel and Judah to fully understand the prophecies concerning each of them.

No, the Church is the combination of both Jew (all 12 tribes) and Gentiles into one Body (Gal.3:28)

It is not necessary to be worried about what happened to the tribes of Israel that are not mentioned specifically in the New Testament until Rev.7.

186 posted on 07/13/2007 5:13:09 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: fortheDeclaration; Diego1618
No one has any burning desire to prove you wrong since what you are saying is irrelevant to anything dealing with the 12 tribes of Israel

Irrelevant??? You are being given a great history lesson so please take advantage of it. I don't know if you will ever find anyone that knows more about the 12 tribes than Diego.

God knows who and where they are now and they will be restored by tribe in the future. (Rev.7, Ezek.48)

Of course God knows and He is awakening others to that knowledge.

187 posted on 07/13/2007 5:14:12 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong
[The Church is in heaven getting judged (1Cor.3, 2Cor.5:10, Rom.14:10) and comes back with the Lord in Rev.19 at the end of the Tribulation. ]

Those scriptures do not mention anyone being judged in heaven. There, of course, will be a judgment and it is spoken of in Rev. 20:12:

The Judgement seat of Christ is not the Great White Throne Judgement.

In the Judgement Seat of Christ, works are tested to see if there are rewards.

No one is lost.

In the White Throne Judgement, the book of life is opened to look for names and if that name is not there, the person is judged by his works and condemned to the Lake of Fire.

Now, since the Church returns with Christ in Rev.19, that Judgement has to occur in heaven.

The Great White Throne Judgement occurs in Rev.20 after the Millennial reign of Christ and the Church is part of the judging, not being judged (1Cor.6)

188 posted on 07/13/2007 5:19:31 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: Ping-Pong
[No one has any burning desire to prove you wrong since what you are saying is irrelevant to anything dealing with the 12 tribes of Israel]

Irrelevant??? You are being given a great history lesson so please take advantage of it. I don't know if you will ever find anyone that knows more about the 12 tribes than Diego. God knows who and where they are now and they will be restored by tribe in the future. (Rev.7, Ezek.48) Of course God knows and He is awakening others to that knowledge.

Cut it out, you are making my sides ache with laughing!

There is nothing 'mysterious' about the missing tribes of Israel.

Now, why don't you and Diego stop being coy and make whatever point you are trying to make.

Tell us why anyone should care about the 'missing' tribes.

189 posted on 07/13/2007 5:23:08 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: fortheDeclaration
The Judgement seat of Christ is not the Great White Throne Judgement.

I agree with you and I thought that was what I said. Sorry if it wasn't properly stated. There are two judgments.

Now, since the Church returns with Christ in Rev.19, that Judgement has to occur in heaven.

Why do you believe that is the church returning, or I should say, where do you see written that is the church? Those are the believers who have died before us. Of course they come back with Him. The judgement takes place here, not in heaven. (both judgements)

The Great White Throne Judgement occurs in Rev.20 after the Millennial reign of Christ and the Church is part of the judging, not being judged (1Cor.6)

1Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Yes, the saints judge but I don't believe it is after the millennial reign.

Rev.20:4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God and which had not worshipped the beast, either his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The scripture is telling me that they "judge and reign" during the millennium, not after. It also tells me that those that were "beheaded", etc. are those that have preceeded us. They are with Him now. The others, those that "neither had received his mark..." have to be those that are here when Satan is on earth. There is no other possibility. If they are raptured away how could they possibly have not worshipped the beast?

Isn't the reward of not worshipping the beast why they reign and judge with Him?

190 posted on 07/13/2007 7:47:48 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: fortheDeclaration; Ping-Pong
In fact, James wrote his epistle to the '12 tribes', and I think the Apostle James might have had little bit more knowledge then you do on their existance.

I'm sure he did. My entire point of this discourse is the fact you have just proved. The Ten tribes of the north were not lost during the first century. Everyone knew where they were and what they were called. It wasn't Jews.

Our Lord himself tells the Apostles this is where they are to go [Matthew 10:5-6] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The Apostle Peter himself writes to some of them (they lived along the southern shores of the Black Sea [1 Peter 1-2] Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. These folks were not called Jews....they did have a foreknowledge of God....they were located not too far from where they had been exiled (700 years earlier)....they were not under Roman control {Josephus Post #160). They were also at that time not under Assyrian control as the Assyrian Empire disintegrated about 600 years before that.....and this is how "Anna" of the tribe of Asher was able to be in Jerusalem. Why do you suppose Luke refers to her as an Asherite? Why doesn't he call her just "an old Jewish woman?

The other 8 are known to God and are considered Jews since Judah is the leading tribe.

Yes....all are known to God but only secular tradition calls them Jews. The Bible calls them Israelites. Our Lord called them His Sheep [John 21:15-17] So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

All of the tribes are represented again in the Millennial reign (Ezek.48)

[Ezekiel 48:19] And they that serve the city shall serve it out of all the tribes of Israel. According to you this should read: "All of the Jewish Tribes"! When are you folks just going to read what it says and quit trying to put your own spin on it?

191 posted on 07/13/2007 8:10:20 AM PDT by Diego1618
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To: fortheDeclaration; Diego1618
There is nothing 'mysterious' about the missing tribes of Israel......Now, why don't you and Diego stop being coy and make whatever point you are trying to make.

I didn't know either of us was being "coy" and I don't believe either of us said it was mysterious. I personally wonder why more don't know about it or why it isn't taught but that's just me.

Tell us why anyone should care about the 'missing' tribes.

Why should you care about anything God tells us about? Because He wants us to know!!!

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people,' there it shall be said unto them, 'Ye are the sons of the living God.'
11.Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land; for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Who are those "sons of the living God" and where are they now? Are we part of that, is that why we feel such a closeness to our Jewish brothers, is that why we take Israel's side?

Those are some of the reasons I think we should care about the missing tribes.

192 posted on 07/13/2007 1:31:57 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong
Those are some of the reasons I think we should care about the missing tribes.

The tribes are not 'missing', God knows exactly what tribe each Jew belongs to.

Now, Paul was of the tribe of Benajamin, thus, associated with the Southern tribe of Judah, yet calls himself an Israelite (Rom.11:1).

James writes to the 12 tribes that are dispersed.

Jews can be of any tribe today, not just Judah and Benajamin, it is an common term now for the entire race.

So being pro-Jewish means you are pro-Israelite-all 12 tribes.

193 posted on 07/14/2007 2:31:04 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: Ping-Pong
didn't know either of us was being "coy" and I don't believe either of us said it was mysterious. I personally wonder why more don't know about it or why it isn't taught but that's just me.

It isn't taught, because it is irrelevant at best and heretical at worse (e.g.the missing tribes are the British)

The word 'Jew' originally meant only the Southern tribes, but has expanded to mean all tribes.

The tribes are not lost, they are concealed among the Jews and God will reveal what each tribe each 'Jew' belongs to during the Tribulation and Millennial reign.

194 posted on 07/14/2007 2:36:22 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: Diego1618
And when you going to stop talking in circles?

The term 'Jew' and 'Israelite' are interchangeable terms and Paul used them for himself when he called himself both (Rom.11:1, Gal.2:15).

Thus, Anna, from the tribe of Aser, would be considered a Jew, even though she is not of the tribe of Judah and Benajamin.

Now, all those from the 12 tribes are both Jewish and Israelites, just as Paul described himself as being.

195 posted on 07/14/2007 2:57:17 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: Ping-Pong
Old Testament and Tribulational saints will reign with the Church in the Millennium.

It is the Church coming back with the rest of the saints since the Church has been married to the Lamb in Rev.19:7 (Eph.5:30, 2Cor.11:2).

It is not only the Church that returns with Christ, but all departed saints, including Tribulational ones.

196 posted on 07/14/2007 3:02:56 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: fortheDeclaration; Diego1618
The tribes are not 'missing', God knows exactly what tribe each Jew belongs to.

Of course He knows where ALL of His chosen are, ALL of the 12 tribes, all of the house of Israel and house of Judah - do you? Do you know, if not then they are missing to you as well as most of mankind. How many know their ancestry back past 3 or 4 generations?

Now, Paul was of the tribe of Benajamin, thus, associated with the Southern tribe of Judah, yet calls himself an Israelite (Rom.11:1).

All 12 tribes are of Jacob, and his name was changed to Israel. So all 12 tribes are considered Israelites but the "Jews" are of the tribe of Judah. There is a difference in the two houses and that difference remains today. They will be brought together again but that hasn't happened yet. (Ez.37:16-22)

Jews can be of any tribe today, not just Judah and Benajamin, it is an common term now for the entire race.

It is common but it is incorrect. Aren't you glad that you now know the truth.

So being pro-Jewish means you are pro-Israelite-all 12 tribes.

That is what some believe but we know that all 12 tribes are not brought together until the millennium. Even then you must notice something about the tribes. In Rev.7: the tribes of Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned. They are left out because of idolatry. In Ezekiel 48 they are again part of the other tribes.

197 posted on 07/14/2007 5:20:51 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: fortheDeclaration; Diego1618
It isn't taught, because it is irrelevant at best and heretical at worse (e.g.the missing tribes are the British)

It isn't irrelevant to me at all nor do I think it is heretical. I do believe the tribes eventually settled in England then to America but that is my belief. You are welcome to yours.

The word 'Jew' originally meant only the Southern tribes, but has expanded to mean all tribes.

To many it has - they are wrong.

The tribes are not lost, they are concealed among the Jews and God will reveal what each tribe each 'Jew' belongs to during the Tribulation and Millennial reign

What you believe disagrees with what God tells us. It is your choice.

198 posted on 07/14/2007 5:33:21 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: fortheDeclaration; Diego1618
It is the Church coming back with the rest of the saints since the Church has been married to the Lamb in Rev.19:7 (Eph.5:30, 2Cor.11:2).

But FTD, it doesn't mention a church coming back anywhere in these verses.

2Cor.11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy; for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Eph.5:30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones. (32)This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready."

His wife is ready to be joined with His bride and that "marriage" happens on earth, at His 2nd Advent. His "wife" is His elect. Those whom He has already justified, (Romans 8:28-30). His bride are those of "free will" who have accepted Him and are now part of His family.

All three of those verses are, as you said, about Christ and His church, His people but no where does it say they are going to be raptured and come back with Him.

It is not only the Church that returns with Christ, but all departed saints, including Tribulational ones.

I don't find anywhere that the "church" returns with Christ. All departed saints do.

We will go through the tribulation and will be refined:

Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My name, and I will hear them: I will say,'It is My People:' and they shall say 'the Lord is my God.'

How is gold and silver refined? Melted down and the slag is thrown to the side. His children will remain pure and not fall for Satan's lies. To go through this refinement we must be here.

199 posted on 07/14/2007 6:04:37 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong
[It is the Church coming back with the rest of the saints since the Church has been married to the Lamb in Rev.19:7 (Eph.5:30, 2Cor.11:2).]

But FTD, it doesn't mention a church coming back anywhere in these verses.

That is who is married with Christ and who comes back to reign with Him on earth.

2Cor.11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy; for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. Eph.5:30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones. (32)This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready."

His wife is ready to be joined with His bride and that "marriage" happens on earth, at His 2nd Advent. His "wife" is His elect. Those whom He has already justified, (Romans 8:28-30). His bride are those of "free will" who have accepted Him and are now part of His family.

His 'wife' are all of those who are part of His Body and that consists of all who have died in Christ since Pentacost and those who will be raptured who are in Christ and not die.

They will be judged at the Judgement seat of Christ to receive rewards and crowns.

All three of those verses are, as you said, about Christ and His church, His people but no where does it say they are going to be raptured and come back with Him.

Paul talks about the Rapture in 1Thess.4 and 1Cor.15.

[ It is not only the Church that returns with Christ, but all departed saints, including Tribulational ones. ]

I don't find anywhere that the "church" returns with Christ. All departed saints do.

Well, since the Church are saints (Phil.1:1)and being part of the family of God (Eph.3:15) they are with Christ when He returns to claim His Jewish Kingdom

We will go through the tribulation and will be refined: Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My name, and I will hear them: I will say,'It is My People:' and they shall say 'the Lord is my God.' How is gold and silver refined? Melted down and the slag is thrown to the side. His children will remain pure and not fall for Satan's lies. To go through this refinement we must be here.

No, the Jews (12 tribes of Israel), who are also God's people and they are going to go through the Tribulation as judgement.

They will then be converted when they see Him (Jer.31:31, Zech 12:10)

The only place the Christian comes into contact with fire is at the Judgement seat of Christ where his works are tested by fire, but he saved through it.

200 posted on 07/14/2007 9:20:32 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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