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Preaching a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Weakens the Church
ArriveNet ^ | July 7, 2007 | J. Grant Swank, Jr.

Posted on 07/07/2007 7:48:37 PM PDT by tnarg

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To: tnarg
jesus’ words in mt 24, mk 13 and lk 21 are THE KEY WORDS.

I see you managed to get your SHIFT KEY to work.

Or was that the CAPS LOCK key?

51 posted on 07/08/2007 12:56:25 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Iscool
Why would Jesus reveal to them the rapture of the Gentile church??? Answer, He wouldn't...

But Iscool, the disciples asked Him about how it would be at the end. Also He said, "I have foretold you all things". Wouldn't He have mentioned such a huge event?

52 posted on 07/08/2007 1:13:26 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: tnarg

There is also 1 Cor. 15:51-52

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (NKJV)

I used to believe in a pre-trib rapture, but after reading the passage above, especially with regard to the “last trumpet”, and seeing that in Revelation there are several trumpets sounding, and after the last one sounds there will be a “harvest” on earth, I am strongly inclined to a post-trib, pre-millenial rapture.


53 posted on 07/08/2007 1:44:43 PM PDT by kiriath_jearim
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To: gcruse

good one


54 posted on 07/08/2007 2:10:11 PM PDT by tnarg
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To: kiriath_jearim

good for you.


55 posted on 07/08/2007 2:11:09 PM PDT by tnarg
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To: Ping-Pong; Iscool; CA Conservative; labette
From Lambert Dolphin:

Rapture (from Lat. Rapio "seize, carry away") The Rapture is an event where every believer is instantly taken up to meet Jesus in heaven without experiencing death. This event is similar to what Enoch experienced when he walked with God and he was not, for God took him (Gen 5:24). Another similar example is when Elijah: was taken up by the Lord to heaven without seeing death (2 Kings 2:1-15).

The Rapture is to be the eschatological event in which Christians still living on the earth will be "caught up together with them (deceased Christians who have already been resurrected absent from the body present with the Lord 2 Cor.5:8) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1Thess. 4:13-18). The rapture contains within it several aspects of eschatological expectation, including the hope for the gathering together of God's people, who have been separated by death, geography or circumstances, and their being united with their Lord (1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16-17; 2 Thess. 2:1); the hope for God's vindication of his people and judgment of their enemies (Luke 18:7-8; 2 Thess. 1:6-10); the hope for unending life (1Cor. 15:51-56); unless those days are shortened the expectation of sudden judgment (Matt. 24:36-44); God did not appoint us to wrath (1Thess. 5:9); His eminent return (1 Cor.1:7; Phil 3:20; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28) and the hope of the release of the righteous from a troubled world (Rev. 3:10).

Some people reject the idea of the Rapture because they say it's not in the Bible but that would depend on what Bible you had because if it where the Latin Vulgate you would have the word Rapiemur from which we get the English word Rapture. As far as words go the word Bible cannot be found but we believe in the Bible, we do not see the word Trinity but the Bible teaches the concept of the Trinity.

The teaching of the rapture is presented clearly in 1 Thess. 4:13-18 in this passage Paul informs his readers that those living Christians at the time of the rapture will be united with those who have died in Christ before them. In verse 17 the English phrase "caught up" is translated from the Greek word harpazo which means to snatch up; seize by force; lead away forcibly; to steal; carry or drag away. In Acts 8:39 Philip upon completing a baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch is "caught up" and divinely transported from the desert to the coastal town of Azotus. Similarly, the church will in a moment of time be taken from earth to heaven when Christ comes for His church.

It is very likely that the rapture is referenced in 2 Thessalonias 2:3. The first three verses of 2 Thessalonians 2 read as follows: 1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away [Greek apostasia] comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." Thomas Ice discusses in detail why the apostasia is probably a reference to the rapture. I agree with this interpretation as did my mentor the late Ray C. Stedman. See http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=165

Christ coming for His church (Rapture) is not to be confused with His second coming (Judgment) these are two separate events:

 Rapture Passages  Second Coming Passages
John 14:1-3
Romans 8:19
1 Corinthians 1:7-8
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
1 Corinthians 16:22
Philippians 3:20
Philippians 4:5
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10; 2:19
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
1 Thessalonians 5:19
2 Thessalonians 2:1
1 Timothy 6:14
2 Timothy 4:1, 8
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 9:28
1 Peter 1:7, 13; 5:4
Revelation 2:25; 3:10
Daniel 2:44-45
Daniel 7:9-14
Daniel 12:1-3
Zechariah 12:10
Zechariah 14:1-15
Matthew 13:41
Matthew 24:15-31
Matthew 26:64
Mark 13: 14-27
Mark 14:62 , 23
Luke 21:25-28
Acts 1:9-11
Acts 3:19-21
1 Thessalonians 3:13
Jude 14, 15
Revelation 1:7
Revelation 19:11-20:6
Revelation 22:7, 12, 20

Rapture and Second Coming Contrasted

Could return at any moment
Don't know the time
Earth not judged
Translated saints go to heaven
Rapture is a mystery
Before the day of wrath
No reference to Satan
He comes for His own (bride)
He comes in the air
Comes for believers only
Only His own will see Him
Tribulation begins
Before the day of wrath

 Following timed events
31/2 years after Abomination of Desolation
Earthed judged
Translated saints return to earth
Predicted often in Old Testament
Concluding the day of wrath
Satan bound
He comes with His own (bride)
He comes to the earth
His return will impact all people
Every eye will see Him
Millennial kingdom begins
Concluding the day of wrath


Prophetic outline of Revelation explained in Revelation 1:19

John is told by Jesus to write down the things which he has seen, the things that are, and the things which will take place after this.

Revelation 1:9-18 the things which John has seen
Revelation 2:1-3:22 the things that are: letters to the seven churches (church age)
Revelation 4:1-22:21 the things which will take place after the church age.
In Revelation 4:1 it says after these things, which are, is when the rapture occurs: The Greek word here is meta tauta "after these things" referring to the church being received in heaven. After this event the church is not mentioned on earth but in heaven.
Revelation 4:1-5:14 the church worshipping in heaven
Revelation 6:1-18:24 the tribulation period
Revelation 19:1-21 the second coming of Christ, coming with His church
Revelation 20:1-5 millennium kingdom
Revelation 21:1-22:21 new earth

The premillennialism view sees Christ's return as preceded by a definite seven-year period of tribulation and followed by the millennium. Premillennialism (prior to great tribulation) and midtribulation (midpoint) views of the rapture tend to think of that event mainly as the escape provided for believers from the troubled world of the end times. Pretribulationism positions, in effect, two second comings of Christ, the first an invisible "secret rapture" (of Christians) before the tribulation, the second a return with the previously raptured saints to judge the wicked and inaugurate the millennium.

Partial rapturism, another variant of pretribulationism, warns that only those in a sanctified state will be caught up before the tribulation; backsliders must endure the tribulation until the final coming of Christ (1Pet. 1:6-7; cf. Matt. 6:13; Luke 21:34-36; Rev. 3:10).

What does the New Testament say about the time of Jesus' Coming? Christ said, "No one knows about the day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" (Matt. 24:36). Since we cannot place Christ's return in any given century or decade, Christians are told to "keep watch." Jesus taught, "You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect Him" (Matt. 24:42-44).

56 posted on 07/08/2007 2:38:59 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Iscool

it all comes down to matthew 24:29-31 as the rapture and second coming being the one same event at the close of the tribulation period.

jesus said it.

it’s plainly accounted for via the holy spirit’s efficiency.


57 posted on 07/08/2007 2:41:52 PM PDT by tnarg
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To: P-Marlowe

jesus never stated rapture and second coming being two separate events.

those who have been brainwashed in that direction say that.

jesus never stated that.

he stated matthew 24:29-31.


58 posted on 07/08/2007 2:43:06 PM PDT by tnarg
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To: tnarg
those who have been brainwashed in that direction say that.

My that is a snide remark. Wouldn't you agree.

I guess you just don't think that people of good will can disagree on this issue, eh? You have to attribute evil intentions to those who disagree with YOU, eh?

The bottom line for Grant Swank is that if you don't agree with Grant Swank, then you must be brainwashed.

Well, tnarg, the fact of the matter is that smarter and better people than Grant Swank believe in a pre-trib rapture of the Church. They may be right. They may be wrong. But they are men of good will who honestly believe what they preach. But I guess you think they all "brainwashed", huh?

Well, maybe it's Grant Swank who is brainwashed into thinking that everyone that disagrees with Grant Swank is brainwashed? What do you think?

59 posted on 07/08/2007 3:01:03 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
It is very likely that the rapture is referenced in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

That was one of the many mistakes the article from Lambert Dolphin makes. That scripture clearly shows us that Paul is warning everyone that his first letter to the Thessalonians (4:17)confused folks, as it does today. We will all experience Satan's tribulation before Christ arrives.

for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

How does he interpret that to mean anyone will be raptured out of here and miss it?

If people, Christians, are not prepared for what will happen there will be a great falling away, as they will all rush to Satan, believing he is Christ coming to fly them away. The sad thing is they won't even realize what they are doing.

60 posted on 07/08/2007 3:08:43 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: tnarg
it all comes down to matthew 24:29-31 as the rapture and second coming being the one same event at the close of the tribulation period.

jesus said it.

But He didn't say it to the Gentile church...Jesus told Paul what to say to the Gentile church...

Jesus created the Gentile church to provoke the Jews to jealousy...The Jews are not yet jealous...They don't believe we Christians are heaven bound...

The only way they will know we are heaven bound is if we head on out and leave them behind (Rapture)...

But Lo, God is not done...God will put the Jews (and all that rejected Jesus in THIS age) thru a Great Tribulation to try to provoke them to accept the Messiah, one more time...

To reject all the scripture that speaks to that because Jesus didn't mention it in person to the Jewish diciples in the book of Matthew is a little confusing to me...

And no doubt, all that scripture in Zechariah and some of the other Minor Prophets, as well as Ezekial, etc. that has scripture that NO ONE can intelligently expound on will likely be revealed to the Jews during this Tribulation period, just as the Pre Trib Rapture was revealed to the church when the time was getting close...

All I can say is, What A Book...What A God...

61 posted on 07/08/2007 3:14:29 PM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
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To: CA Conservative

Humanity is already under His judgment. Ever read Gen. 3? Believers are not exempt from suffering. What is judgment for those without faith is a test for those who have put their faith in Christ. What difference does it make whether its during the “Great Tribulation” or any other time in human history? This teaching caused a great many Christians in China to throw off their faith because missionaries told them they would be “raptured” out. When Mao took over these Christians suffered great tribulation, yet without the promised “rapture.” Those who did not renounce their faith became the seedbed of a great renewal that going on in that nation today. That is how God has always done things. He winnows out the apostates from the visible Church, and from that remnant a more faithful Church grows anew.


62 posted on 07/08/2007 3:47:45 PM PDT by attiladhun2 (Islam is a despotism so vile that it would warm the heart of Orwell's Big Brother)
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To: D Rider

No one was “ratured” during Noah’s flood. Noah and his family went through the judgment, safe in the Ark of safety, just as also Christians go through tribulations of all kinds safe in the arms of the Savior.


63 posted on 07/08/2007 3:54:46 PM PDT by attiladhun2 (Islam is a despotism so vile that it would warm the heart of Orwell's Big Brother)
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To: labette

You are mistaking those “taken away” in Mt. 24 with the rapture. The ones taken away are not “raptured,” they are swept away in the fury of God’s wrath. Read that portion of scripture carefully without the blinders of Pre-tribulationism.


64 posted on 07/08/2007 3:59:58 PM PDT by attiladhun2 (Islam is a despotism so vile that it would warm the heart of Orwell's Big Brother)
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To: P-Marlowe
I didn't thank you for taking the time with this post in my other reply. Please accept my apologies.

It's just that I don't agree with the idea of rapture and truly believe it to be dangerous. It seems to have a very strong hold on many wonderful Christians today, including many in my family.

Please allow me to tell you, as I tell them, - If we are all raptured away then there is no problem but if someone comes, claiming to be Christ saying let's gather together so he can rapture you away - Do Not Go.

The one that comes first is Satan, pretending to be Christ, as I believe the Bible tells us. When the true Christ arrives, at the seventh and last trump, we are all changed. Wait for that and do not be taken.

2Thess.2:8. And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
9.Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10.And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved.
11.And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12.That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I believe that rapture is the lie that is causing the "strong delusion" and God sends it to test us.

......Ping

65 posted on 07/08/2007 4:02:29 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong
That was one of the many mistakes the article from Lambert Dolphin makes. That scripture clearly shows us that Paul is warning everyone that his first letter to the Thessalonians (4:17)confused folks, as it does today.

I don't believe it was Paul's letter that confused the people...

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

It appears that there were some 'brethern' going around telling the Thessalonians that the Rapture and the 2nd Coming of Jesus (the Day of the Lord) were the same event...And the Thessalonians were thinking they missed the Rapture...

We will all experience Satan's tribulation before Christ arrives.

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

No wrath to come for Christians...And again,

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul is telling these folks that they DID NOT miss the Rapture...The proof??? Because the man of sin will be revealed before Jesus Christ His face to the entire World...

And how do we know that the Rapture happens first???

Again, there are many scripture that bear this out:

1Th 3:13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints

When the Lord Jesus comes to take out the man of sin at the end of the Tribulation, His church, His bride, His saints show up WITH HIM.

66 posted on 07/08/2007 4:03:24 PM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
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To: P-Marlowe

Much to study here also.

An excellent link. Saving for future reference.


67 posted on 07/08/2007 4:07:21 PM PDT by labette
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To: tnarg
Preaching a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Weakens the Church

..nonsense

The best treatment of eschatology I ever read was "Things To Come" by J. Dwight Pentecost. It may still be in print.

68 posted on 07/08/2007 4:07:25 PM PDT by WalterSkinner ( In Memory of My Father--WWII Vet and Patriot 1926-2007)
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To: attiladhun2
The ones taken away are not “raptured,” they are swept away in the fury of God’s wrath.

Amen. Taken, as used there is much the same as, "I was "taken" by a con artist." It's not a good thing.

69 posted on 07/08/2007 4:10:10 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: attiladhun2

yes yes yes. you actually got it. hopefully some of the others still in the dark will get it.


70 posted on 07/08/2007 4:15:05 PM PDT by tnarg
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To: Ping-Pong
- If we are all raptured away then there is no problem but if someone comes, claiming to be Christ saying let's gather together so he can rapture you away - Do Not Go.

Have no fear...Satan can't 'Rapture' anyone...When God says 'Come up Hither', you are already past Jupiter and the Constellations and you are headed North faster than the speed of light...Remember, in the twinkling of an eye...

You can wave at the Big Dipper as you go by...

When you bought the salvation ticket, the Rapture was included at no charge...It's a package deal...And no refunds...

Jesus (nor Satan) is going to email you and ask if you are ready to go...Even if you don't believe in it, YOU'RE GOIN'...Praise God...

71 posted on 07/08/2007 4:16:42 PM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
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To: attiladhun2

jesus never stated rapture and second coming being two separate events.

those who have been brainwashed in that direction say that.

jesus never stated that.

he stated matthew 24:29-31.


72 posted on 07/08/2007 4:16:55 PM PDT by tnarg
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To: Iscool
"Even if you don't believe in it, YOU'RE GOIN'...Praise God..."

Kicking and screaming all along the way?

73 posted on 07/08/2007 4:22:40 PM PDT by labette
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To: Iscool
I apologize for that one...
74 posted on 07/08/2007 4:23:47 PM PDT by labette
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To: Ping-Pong; Iscool; CA Conservative; labette
We will all experience Satan's tribulation before Christ arrives.

That is true, however the Tribulation spoken of in Revelation and Daniel is not "Satan's" tribulation, but God's judgment.

So will we all experience "God's Judgment" or will we, like Noah, be taken out before God pours out his wrath upon the earth?

I believe that the Church which exists today will be taken out before God pours out his judgment. We will then be united at the end of God's judgment with the believers in Christ who come to Christ and endure to the end of the Tribulation.

That's what I believe. I may be wrong. I've studied this issue in detail over the last 40 years, and I think that it makes more sense than believing that the Bride of Christ will go through the pouring out of the wrath of God upon the earth.

We will go through Satan's tribulation and many already have. The evil that we have here on earth is the tribulations caused by the adversary. The tribulation that will precede the coming of Christ is GOD's tribulation. Big difference.

75 posted on 07/08/2007 4:53:12 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: attiladhun2; P-Marlowe; Ping-Pong; Iscool; labette; tnarg

“Noah and his family went through the judgment, safe in the Ark of safety, just as also Christians go through tribulations of all kinds safe in the arms of the Savior.”

Tribulations are not the same as the wrath of God or the judgments of God. All men experience tribulations of some kind because of the fall. The church will not experience the wrath or the judgment of God, nor will it go through it. There is no scripture that says the church will experience the “wrath” of God or the “judgment” of God. Jesus experienced that for us as Isaiah 53 clearly states.

What the scriptures do say is that before the second coming, the “marriage” of Christ with His church has taken place and the “marriage” supper precedes the second coming. So if Revelation 19 is correct, when did the church enter heaven for the marriage?


76 posted on 07/08/2007 6:02:43 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: Ping-Pong; Iscool; CA Conservative; labette; blue-duncan
I believe that rapture is the lie that is causing the "strong delusion" and God sends it to test us.

Unless you are willing to state that every Christian who believes in the rapture has "pleasure in unrighteousness," then the lie in II Thess. 2:10 has NOTHING to do with belief in the Rapture.

Most people, if not all, who have pleasure in unrighteousness, (i.e., unrepentant sinners who reject Christ) mock the idea of a Rapture and make fun of those who believe in the Rapture of the Church. They make fun of most Christians, no doubt, but they take exquisite pleasure in mocking those who believe that someday the Church will be raptured to heaven.

So don't go blaming God for sending a delusion go guys like John MacArthur and Chuck Smith unless you are willing to claim that both of them have pleasure in unrighteousness.

/rant

77 posted on 07/08/2007 6:37:23 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Ping-Pong
I believe that rapture is the lie that is causing the "strong delusion" and God sends it to test us.

One other thing. If God is sending someone a "strong delusion" it is not as a test, it is as a judgment. God does not send a strong delusion so that they will believe a lie unless that person has already totally rejected the truth.

78 posted on 07/08/2007 6:42:59 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Ping-Pong; attiladhun2; P-Marlowe; Iscool; labette; tnarg

“How does he interpret that to mean anyone will be raptured out of here and miss it?”

2 Thess. 2:3, “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” has to be read with the rest of the passage where Paul states, 2 Thess. 2:7-9, “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders”.

Now who is “he who now letteth” that is taken out of the the way? It has to be either the church or the Holy Spirit and if the latter, then the church is gone also since it only exists becsuse of the presence of the Holy Spirit in it. After “he who now letteth” is gone, then the “Wicked” one is revealed “whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders”. So for a time Satan and his anti-christ are given time to do some work, but the Holy Spirit is not present (which means the church is not present) as He was before He was taken out of the way. This is all before the second coming.


79 posted on 07/08/2007 6:58:13 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; Ping-Pong; attiladhun2; P-Marlowe; Iscool; labette
From Chuck Missler:

Post-tribulation Problems

One of the strengths of the pre-trib view is that it is better able to harmonize the many events of end-time prophecy because of the above distinctions. There are some awkward difficulties with the post-tribulational view:

1) The post-tribulation view requires that the church be present during the 70th week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27), even though it was absent from the first 69. This is in spite of the fact that Dan 9:24 indicates that all 70 weeks are for Israel. We believe the church must depart prior to the 70th week, before the final seven-year period (see our briefing package, Daniel's 70 Weeks, for further study).

2) The post-tribulation view denies the New Testament teaching of imminency--that Christ could come at any moment--since there are intervening events required in that view. We believe there are no signs that must precede the Rapture.

3) The post-tribulation view has difficulties with who will populate the Millennium4 if the Rapture and the Second Coming occur at essentially the same time. Since all believers will be translated at the Rapture and all unbelievers are judged, because no unrighteous shall be allowed to enter Christ's Kingdom, then no one would be left in mortal bodies to start the population base for the Millennium.

4) Similarly, post-tribulationism is not able to explain the sheep and goats judgment after the Second Coming in Matthew 25:3- 46. Where would the believers in mortal bodies come from if they are raptured at the Second Coming? Who would be able to enter into Christ's Kingdom?

5) The Bride of Christ, the church, is made ready to accompany Christ to earth (Revelation 19:7-8, 14) before the Second Coming, but how could this reasonably happen if part of the church is still on the earth awaiting the Second Coming? If the Rapture of the church takes place at the Second Coming, then how does the Bride (the church) also come with Christ at His Return?

While many diligent scholars disagree, most of their views derive from their presuppositions about the Scripture. The more literal a view, the more there is an adoption of a pre-millennial pre-tribulation position. We encourage you to review the various passages yourself and develop your own conclusions. This is our "Blessed Hope," and you will not find a more exciting and rewarding discovery. This is just a brief overview of a complex subject, so apply 2 Timothy 2:15:

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

80 posted on 07/08/2007 7:27:11 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: CA Conservative
So you are of the opinion that God will have his Bride suffer His Wrath along with the unbelievers of the world?

No way. Christians will not suffer the wrath of God, but we are told we will see tribulation.

81 posted on 07/08/2007 7:39:12 PM PDT by ladyinred
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To: Alex Murphy
There’s not many post-tribbers here on FR - nice to see that we can add one more to the tally.

Me too, Alex!

82 posted on 07/08/2007 7:41:10 PM PDT by ladyinred
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To: ladyinred

“Christians will not suffer the wrath of God, but we are told we will see tribulation.”

That’s tribulation with a small “t” as in John 16:33, “These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”. The tribulation period we are talking about is the Great Tribulation, with a capital “T” as in Daniel’s seventieth week, Matt. 24 and Rev. 6-9, 11, 15-16. The Great Tribulation is a time when the wrath of God in judgment is poured out on all that are on earth; all suffer the effects of it.


83 posted on 07/08/2007 8:02:27 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: P-Marlowe; Ping-Pong; attiladhun2; Iscool; labette

When I started Sunday School a long, long, long time ago, the teacher stressed that in order to understand the scriptures one had to read them all, in order, in context, as written and then come to a conclusion as to the meaning. When studying a problematic passage gather all the scriptures that have a bearing on the question and then compare and contrast, in context, to find out the consistant meaning of the author as reconciled with the other authors. Chuck must have had the same teacher.


84 posted on 07/08/2007 8:13:35 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: attiladhun2
No one was “ratured” during Noah’s flood. Noah and his family went through the judgment, safe in the Ark of safety, just as also Christians go through tribulations of all kinds safe in the arms of the Savior.

What about Enoch? ( and of course no one was raptured during the flood, it was before the flood.)

85 posted on 07/08/2007 8:15:49 PM PDT by D Rider
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To: blue-duncan; Ping-Pong; attiladhun2; Iscool; labette
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. (Luke 17:26-27 KJV)

What happened in the days of Noah? God was ready to pour out his wrath upon the earth and he took all the righteous people in the world (all 8 of them) and put them on the ark and they were spared from the wrath of God.

Well God is going to pour out his wrath once again. However now all the people who have put their faith and trust in Christ are imputed with righteousness, and thus they will also be rescued from the wrath to come.

So one way or another every Christian will avoid the wrath of God during the tribulation. We will all either be killed by the powers of darkness before it begins or we will be rescued by Christ. I suspect the scriptures would suggest that the latter is a more plausible explanation.

86 posted on 07/08/2007 10:19:29 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Iscool
Jesus (nor Satan) is going to email you and ask if you are ready to go...Even if you don't believe in it, YOU'RE GOIN'...Praise God...

I agree Iscool but Satan will be working his lying wonders before Christ arrives. Will one of those lies be "let's all gather together so I can rapture you out of here my beloved children. Go and bring everyone you know".

Many Christians don't understand Satan comes first and they are not prepared for his deceit. He is coming as Christ and he is going to fool many good people. God not only allows this but He said Himself, "I will send strong delusion to those that believe a lie". (2Thess.2:8)

87 posted on 07/09/2007 7:11:45 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: attiladhun2

There are actually a number of arguments for a pre-trib rapture.

And for a mid-trib

And end-trib

and no trib

etc.

They all have their arguments. The question is whether folks know what they are.


88 posted on 07/09/2007 7:35:30 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: Ping-Pong; Iscool

“Many Christians don’t understand Satan comes first and they are not prepared for his deceit. He is coming as Christ and he is going to fool many good people. God not only allows this but He said Himself, “I will send strong delusion to those that believe a lie”. (2Thess.2:8)”

Before he is revealed the Holy Spirit (or the church) is removed (2 Thess. 2:7, “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way). So explain how the christian or the church can exist without the Holy Spirit or how they can discern Christ or the anti-christ without the Holy Spirit.


89 posted on 07/09/2007 9:08:36 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: P-Marlowe

Nope, we just don’t read it in any of our services. It’s part of the canon, but regarded as more likely to excite the passions than to edify, so we don’t make much of a deal about it. (Though some aspects of our liturgical practice are drawn from it: for instance, the earthly altar of a church being a copy of, and, participating in the Heavenly altar, we always have a relic of a martyr in the Holy Table.)


90 posted on 07/09/2007 9:52:36 AM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: The_Reader_David
It’s part of the canon, but regarded as more likely to excite the passions than to edify, so we don’t make much of a deal about it

It is the only book in the bible that promises a special blessing to any who will read and keep the words in it.

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. (Revelation 1:3 KJV)

Why would anyone want to avoid this book?

91 posted on 07/09/2007 10:07:41 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: The_Reader_David
we always have a relic of a martyr in the Holy Table

Just out of curiosity, why would you need that? The very dust of the earth, from which all saints are made, is a relic of the creation of God. Why should some molecules of dirt have more value than others? Why should we venerate the dust of the earth? Should we not simply praise God for the work of the martyrs (which is the work of God anyway) and give all the glory and honor to God? Isn't that what THEY would want?

92 posted on 07/09/2007 10:20:05 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Iscool; blue-duncan; P-Marlowe
2Thess.2:3 - It appears that there were some 'brethern' going around telling the Thessalonians that the Rapture and the 2nd Coming of Jesus (the Day of the Lord) were the same event...And the Thessalonians were thinking they missed the Rapture..

Iscool I don't think that is what happened. Paul was referring to his letter (1Thess.4:13-17)that folks get the rapture theory from. The problem is that they begin at vs.14 and leave out what the subject is - About those that have died before them.

That is all those verses are about, not about Jesus coming to to carry them away so they miss everything He spends other chapters warning them to be prepared for.

1Thess.4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The dead "rise first" because they are already with Him, that was what Paul was telling them. They are not in a hole in the ground but with Him. He descends at His 2nd Advent, at the 7th trump, as He told us (1Corin.15:52). The 7th trump is the last trump. Satan comes first at the 6th seal, 6th trump and 6th vial - 666.

17.Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

"Clouds", as used here is just an expression that means in a big crowd, as a cloud of locusts. The word "air" means "to breathe, air", meaning your breath of life, your spirit, not the atmosphere. Knowing that we can read the verse differently:

Then we which are alive, and remain shall be caught up together with them (those that have died before us) in a (huge crowd), to meet the Lord in (our spirit bodies): and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The folks then, as well as now, confused what he was saying and thought Jesus would come back to fly them away. For that reason Paul wrote his 2nd letter and warned them not to let anyone deceive them, that Satan would come before Christ did - get ready for it.

1Thess.1:10...No wrath to come for Christians

Christians that stay true to Him and do not fall for Satan's deceit, as many, many will do, will not experience His wrath. He promises that and I certainly believe Him but He did not say we wouldn't be here when things happened.

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come

The condition He gives there is that we wait for His Son and not chase after the "instead-of-Christ".

Paul is telling these folks that they DID NOT miss the Rapture...The proof??? Because the man of sin will be revealed before Jesus Christ His face to the entire World...

Yes, he will but will they realize it? That is what he is warning us about. Satan will be here in plain sight but the unlearned will believe him to be Christ coming to rapture them away.

When the Lord Jesus comes to take out the man of sin at the end of the Tribulation, His church, His bride, His saints show up WITH HIM.

The armies which were in heaven followed Him....(Rev.19:14). All those that believed on Christ, that have died before us, come with Him to gather with us. He is coming to earth, we aren't going anywhere.

At least that is what I believe and so I warn others when the opportunity arises.

......Ping

93 posted on 07/09/2007 10:51:04 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: P-Marlowe; Iscool; blue-duncan; attiladhun2; D Rider
That is true, however the Tribulation spoken of in Revelation and Daniel is not "Satan's" tribulation, but God's judgment.

I believe both tribulations, or Satan's tribulation and God's judgment, which is a much better term, are both mentioned.

Rev.12:17 tells us: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations
God gives Satan this power. It is part of His plan.
8.And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This is the tribulation of Satan but most won't know it is a tribulation as it will be more like a big love fest. It is one of deceit and lies. He comes in prosperously and peacefully.

Daniel 11:21And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

"So will we all experience "God's Judgment" or will we, like Noah, be taken out before God pours out his wrath upon the earth?"

I believe that Noah, Daniel in the lion's den, the 3 Hebrew children in the furnace, the Hebrews in the Exodus, etc. are all our examples. We will not experience His wrath. We are His children and He loves us. I do believe we will be here, as those I mentioned were, but we will not be harmed.

"We will go through Satan's tribulation and many already have. The evil that we have here on earth is the tribulations caused by the adversary. The tribulation that will precede the coming of Christ is GOD's tribulation. Big difference."

Many do experience Satan's tribulation now but what he has coming will be much worse:

Rev.12:9.And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Mark 13, when Christ was telling His disciples about the end of days: 19.For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20.And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.

The affliction isn't as we normally think of it but is one of lies, and deceit to get us to follow him. To believe that he is Christ. That is his tribulation. God's judgment is after that and He judges those that followed Satan.

So, although I agree with you on some things, on that I must disagree. I believe He tells us that the tribulation that preceeds the coming of Christ is that of Satan, however he does it with God's permission.

94 posted on 07/09/2007 11:33:21 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong; blue-duncan; attiladhun2; Iscool; labette; tnarg; grantswank
At least that is what I believe and so I warn others when the opportunity arises.

I don't "warn" people about their belief in a post tribulation rapture. I could care less if people believe in a pre-trib, mid trib or post trib rapture. As paul says, it is a MYSTERY.

That being said, I don't like the way some people, like the author of this article, try to impugn the motives of good people who believe differently than they do on this issue. Men of good will can believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and they have verses which back up that belief. Men of good will can believe in a mid-tribulation rapture and they have verses which back up that belief. Men of good will can believe that the whole book of Revelation was fulfilled in 70AD and that there will be no rapture and they might even have a verse or two to back up that notion.

At any rate, eshcatology is not central to Christian belief. So we ought not to be questioning either the intelligence or the good will of those who disagree with us on this issue.

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV)

Let's don't forget that.

95 posted on 07/09/2007 11:38:02 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

To mirror the souls of the saints under the Heavenly Altar as recorded in the Apocalypse of St. John, and thus as a reminder of their prayers.

The Church has done this since the earliest days: in the days of the persecution by the Roman pagans, the tombs of martyrs in the catacombs serves as the holy table.


96 posted on 07/09/2007 11:55:51 AM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: Ping-Pong; P-Marlowe; Iscool; attiladhun2; D Rider

Just a simple question, is the Holy Spirit and the church on earth during the opening of the seals, trumpets and vials in Rev. 6-9, 11, 15-16? In other words is the church going through God’s judgments?


97 posted on 07/09/2007 11:57:32 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: labette

Actually, I believe in Matthew 24 Jesus was speaking of the end of the age, not the end of the world.

“This” means this and not “that.”
“You” means you and not “they.”
And “very soon” means very soon.

Therefore, “this generation” was the generation that He was speaking to. And it was that generation that He was speaking to that saw the destruction of the Temple and Jeruselem and the end of the Age.
All who saw that destruction, including “those who pierced Him,” knew that He was the Christ, that He was the Temple, and that His kingdom would never be destroyed.


98 posted on 07/09/2007 12:11:20 PM PDT by tabsternager
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To: P-Marlowe
"I believe that rapture is the lie that is causing the "strong delusion" and God sends it to test us."....One other thing. If God is sending someone a "strong delusion" it is not as a test, it is as a judgment. God does not send a strong delusion so that they will believe a lie unless that person has already totally rejected the truth.

If the word "judgment" is used instead of "test" what are you being judged on in this particular instance? If God said that He would send strong delusion so they should believe a lie then what lie is it? Those that "have already totally rejected the truth" already belong to Satan. He wants Christians and will lie to get them.

Unless you are willing to state that every Christian who believes in the rapture has "pleasure in unrighteousness," then the lie in II Thess. 2:10 has NOTHING to do with belief in the Rapture.

I am not willing to say that. I am willing to say they don't know it is a lie. They believe it with every fiber of their being. God tells us that those that believe the lie have pleasure in it.

Most people, if not all, who have pleasure in unrighteousness, (i.e., unrepentant sinners who reject Christ) mock the idea of a Rapture and make fun of those who believe in the Rapture of the Church. They make fun of most Christians, no doubt, but they take exquisite pleasure in mocking those who believe that someday the Church will be raptured to heaven.

I understand your feelings P-Marlowe but I am not one of them. I do not mock or make fun of those that believe in rapture. I do try to tell them of my concerns.

So don't go blaming God for sending a delusion

I don't blame Him at all, those are His Words, He warns us.

99 posted on 07/09/2007 12:12:24 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong; blue-duncan; attiladhun2; Iscool; labette; tnarg; grantswank
If the word "judgment" is used instead of "test" what are you being judged on in this particular instance?

Your rejection of Christ and your taking pleasure in unrighteouness. When God sends a strong delusion that you might believe a lie, he has stopped knocking at the door of your heart. At that point your fate is sealed. You are going to hell, so you might as well be happy about it. All that God needs to do to "send you a strong delusion" is to simply stop working in your life and leave you to your own devices.

If God said that He would send strong delusion so they should believe a lie then what lie is it?

that there is "pleasure" in unrighteousness. It is similar to when God hardened Pharoah's heart. Pharoah didn't want to let the Children of Israel go, so God made it easier for him to follow his own devices by hardening his heart.

Those that "have already totally rejected the truth" already belong to Satan. He wants Christians and will lie to get them.

And if God has given them over to Satan, then they will believe the lie, they will believe their delusions, they will reject the gospel.

All of this has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with whether or not you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture or no rapture at all. The belief in the rapture is simply our hope that we will not be present during the wrath that is to come. If we are here during that day of wrath, then we'll just have to deal with it. If we are taken up to the Marriage Supper before that happens, then I guess we'll just have to deal with that.

Tell you what, just sit next to a pre-tribber at the Marriage supper and they'll explain it to you then.

I am not willing to say that. I am willing to say they don't know it is a lie. ?

It is not a lie. It is a reasonable deduction regarding a mystery that is scripturally sound.

They believe it with every fiber of their being.

Baloney. I believe it. But not with every fiber of my being, that's for sure. By accusing those who believe it as believing in a lie, I would venture to guess that you believe in a post tribulation rapture "with every fiber or your being." Otherwise, you would not be claiming that pre-tribulationists are being deliberately deluded by God so that they can believe the lie.

God tells us that those that believe the lie have pleasure in it.

Boy you are really taking that out of context. It is those who have pleasure in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS that will believe the lie in 2 Thess 2:10. Now as I said before, unless you are willing to say that everyone who believes in a pre-trib rapture "takes pleasure in unrighteousness", then I think you ought to stop using that verse to condemn us. It has nothing to do with eschatology. It has to do with soteriology.

I do not mock or make fun of those that believe in rapture. I do try to tell them of my concerns.

While at the same time accusing us of having pleasure in unrighteousness. If your hermenutics are that bad in regard to II Thess 2:10, then I would have to question your hermenutics in regard to your ideas about the rapture.

Get a grip Ping. This issue is not life or death.

100 posted on 07/09/2007 12:38:13 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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