Skip to comments.Preaching a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Weakens the Church
Posted on 07/07/2007 7:48:37 PM PDT by tnarg
click here to read article
I just did. It is an excellent article. But it ignores the Old Testament references to the rapture, which is quite common. Together they paint a powerful case for a pre-tribulation rapture.
jesus’ words in mt 24, mk 13 and lk 21 are THE KEY WORDS.
no use to go further if one does not want to.
jesus, deity incarnate, responded to the disciples’ questions regarding his return.
that info is primary.
that info points to a POST-TRIB rapture coinciding with the second coming. this IS the key passage from jesus’ lips: matthew 24:29-31.
all other second coming prophetic passages should be read in light of jesus’ words.
there is no powerful case for a pre-trib rapture in the old testament for the ot passages would not contradict jesus’ clear statement in mt 24:29-31.
jesus’ data come first, above all else. all else must be read through jesus’ clear data. not the other way around.
jesus’ detail is PRIMARY.
you stated: “I havent a clue what a modified dispensationlist is”.
nor do i.
We are mentioned and we will be there but we won't be beheaded. Christ certainly wouldn't behead us and neither can Satan.
1Chronicles 16:22 Saying, "Touch not Mine anointed, And do My prophets no harm."
The only way he can harm us is with deception and if we are sealed with God's Word and know the truth then he can't touch us.
Rev.9:4 (Satan's tribulation) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5.And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months; and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man
It is my belief that the reference to those that were beheaded are to those that have died before us, as in the Roman times and of course to any who are murdered for their Christian beliefs today. They come to earth with Christ and join those that didn't take the "mark of the beast" during his tribulation.
Ca Conservative wrote: But the Tribulation is directly described as the wrath of God on the world. If the Church (His Bride) will be here during that time, then it will receive His wrath as well, since many of the plagues and judgments are world-wide in their scope...
His bride and wife will be here (we have work to do) and the earth is in for a big shaking but remember the tribulation we must worry about is Satan's, not the one of Jesus Christ - He loves us. Think about how He protected his own during the flood, during the Exodus, how Daniel wasn't hurt when he was in the lion's den, how the 3 Hebrew children weren't harmed in the fire. Those are our examples so we know He would never harm us but the condition is that we do not follow Satan. If we do, even unknowingly, then we are no longer a child of God but of Satan.
Another point to consider is that when Jesus arrives at His 2nd Advent, 7th trump (after Satan's), then:
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Corinthians 15:52)
So...How much will we experience?
Yes, rather like papal infallibility. Another bit of Western heresy.
(That’s an Orthodox monastic smiley, just in case you haven’t seen it before.)
You are, of course, makng a distinction between the first 3-1/2 years of the tribulation and the last 3-1/2 years, often referred to as the Great Tribulation. Does that mean you believe in a mid-tribulation rapture? If you are post-trib, or don't believe in a rapture at all, then you must believe that He will allow His Bride to suffer his Wrath... I'm just interested in how you support that scripturally.
believers suffer through the tribulation for believers are specifically mentioned in the tribulation time frame. ill leave that to your homework to find them. they are there. they are the ones beheaded, etc. so go to it. have fun. enjoy the study.
Ah, yes, but are those who were believers prior to the Tribulation, or do they become believers during the Tribulation?
By the way, I've done quite a bit of study on the subject, so please try not to come across as condescending. We may come to different conclusions, and neither of us will know for sure who is right until Christ returns, but we still need to treat each other with Christian love and respect.
One man's heresy is another man's orthodoxy, eh? <[;-)======
all other second coming prophetic passages should be read in light of jesus words.
Not so...None of the Jews in Mat. 24 knew anything about a born again, Gentile church...It hadn't been revealed yet...They knew nothing about the adoption of Gentiles into the church...Why would Jesus reveal to them the rapture of the Gentile church??? Answer, He wouldn't...
In the book of Revelation, the Wedding takes place 'after' the Rapture, yet, before the end of the Tribulation, before the 2nd coming of Jesus...
“would be pretty inconsiderate of the Lord to zap people out of vehicles barreling down city streets.’
Grandpa was sent straight to heaven, not like his screaming passengers.
I see you managed to get your SHIFT KEY to work.
Or was that the CAPS LOCK key?
But Iscool, the disciples asked Him about how it would be at the end. Also He said, "I have foretold you all things". Wouldn't He have mentioned such a huge event?
There is also 1 Cor. 15:51-52
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (NKJV)
I used to believe in a pre-trib rapture, but after reading the passage above, especially with regard to the “last trumpet”, and seeing that in Revelation there are several trumpets sounding, and after the last one sounds there will be a “harvest” on earth, I am strongly inclined to a post-trib, pre-millenial rapture.
good for you.
Rapture (from Lat. Rapio "seize, carry away") The Rapture is an event where every believer is instantly taken up to meet Jesus in heaven without experiencing death. This event is similar to what Enoch experienced when he walked with God and he was not, for God took him (Gen 5:24). Another similar example is when Elijah: was taken up by the Lord to heaven without seeing death (2 Kings 2:1-15).
The Rapture is to be the eschatological event in which Christians still living on the earth will be "caught up together with them (deceased Christians who have already been resurrected absent from the body present with the Lord 2 Cor.5:8) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1Thess. 4:13-18). The rapture contains within it several aspects of eschatological expectation, including the hope for the gathering together of God's people, who have been separated by death, geography or circumstances, and their being united with their Lord (1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16-17; 2 Thess. 2:1); the hope for God's vindication of his people and judgment of their enemies (Luke 18:7-8; 2 Thess. 1:6-10); the hope for unending life (1Cor. 15:51-56); unless those days are shortened the expectation of sudden judgment (Matt. 24:36-44); God did not appoint us to wrath (1Thess. 5:9); His eminent return (1 Cor.1:7; Phil 3:20; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28) and the hope of the release of the righteous from a troubled world (Rev. 3:10).
Some people reject the idea of the Rapture because they say it's not in the Bible but that would depend on what Bible you had because if it where the Latin Vulgate you would have the word Rapiemur from which we get the English word Rapture. As far as words go the word Bible cannot be found but we believe in the Bible, we do not see the word Trinity but the Bible teaches the concept of the Trinity.
The teaching of the rapture is presented clearly in 1 Thess. 4:13-18 in this passage Paul informs his readers that those living Christians at the time of the rapture will be united with those who have died in Christ before them. In verse 17 the English phrase "caught up" is translated from the Greek word harpazo which means to snatch up; seize by force; lead away forcibly; to steal; carry or drag away. In Acts 8:39 Philip upon completing a baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch is "caught up" and divinely transported from the desert to the coastal town of Azotus. Similarly, the church will in a moment of time be taken from earth to heaven when Christ comes for His church.
It is very likely that the rapture is referenced in 2 Thessalonias 2:3. The first three verses of 2 Thessalonians 2 read as follows: 1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away [Greek apostasia] comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." Thomas Ice discusses in detail why the apostasia is probably a reference to the rapture. I agree with this interpretation as did my mentor the late Ray C. Stedman. See http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=165
Christ coming for His church (Rapture) is not to be confused with His second coming (Judgment) these are two separate events:
|Rapture Passages||Second Coming Passages|
1 Corinthians 1:7-8
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
1 Corinthians 16:22
1 Thessalonians 1:10; 2:19
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
1 Thessalonians 5:19
2 Thessalonians 2:1
1 Timothy 6:14
2 Timothy 4:1, 8
1 Peter 1:7, 13; 5:4
Revelation 2:25; 3:10
Mark 13: 14-27
Mark 14:62 , 23
1 Thessalonians 3:13
Jude 14, 15
Revelation 22:7, 12, 20
Rapture and Second Coming Contrasted
Could return at any moment
Following timed events
Prophetic outline of Revelation explained in Revelation 1:19
John is told by Jesus to write down the things which he has seen, the things that are, and the things which will take place after this.
Revelation 1:9-18 the things which John has seen
Revelation 2:1-3:22 the things that are: letters to the seven churches (church age)
Revelation 4:1-22:21 the things which will take place after the church age.
In Revelation 4:1 it says after these things, which are, is when the rapture occurs: The Greek word here is meta tauta "after these things" referring to the church being received in heaven. After this event the church is not mentioned on earth but in heaven.
Revelation 4:1-5:14 the church worshipping in heaven
Revelation 6:1-18:24 the tribulation period
Revelation 19:1-21 the second coming of Christ, coming with His church
Revelation 20:1-5 millennium kingdom
Revelation 21:1-22:21 new earth
The premillennialism view sees Christ's return as preceded by a definite seven-year period of tribulation and followed by the millennium. Premillennialism (prior to great tribulation) and midtribulation (midpoint) views of the rapture tend to think of that event mainly as the escape provided for believers from the troubled world of the end times. Pretribulationism positions, in effect, two second comings of Christ, the first an invisible "secret rapture" (of Christians) before the tribulation, the second a return with the previously raptured saints to judge the wicked and inaugurate the millennium.
Partial rapturism, another variant of pretribulationism, warns that only those in a sanctified state will be caught up before the tribulation; backsliders must endure the tribulation until the final coming of Christ (1Pet. 1:6-7; cf. Matt. 6:13; Luke 21:34-36; Rev. 3:10).
What does the New Testament say about the time of Jesus' Coming? Christ said, "No one knows about the day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" (Matt. 24:36). Since we cannot place Christ's return in any given century or decade, Christians are told to "keep watch." Jesus taught, "You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect Him" (Matt. 24:42-44).
it all comes down to matthew 24:29-31 as the rapture and second coming being the one same event at the close of the tribulation period.
jesus said it.
it’s plainly accounted for via the holy spirit’s efficiency.
jesus never stated rapture and second coming being two separate events.
those who have been brainwashed in that direction say that.
jesus never stated that.
he stated matthew 24:29-31.
My that is a snide remark. Wouldn't you agree.
I guess you just don't think that people of good will can disagree on this issue, eh? You have to attribute evil intentions to those who disagree with YOU, eh?
The bottom line for Grant Swank is that if you don't agree with Grant Swank, then you must be brainwashed.
Well, tnarg, the fact of the matter is that smarter and better people than Grant Swank believe in a pre-trib rapture of the Church. They may be right. They may be wrong. But they are men of good will who honestly believe what they preach. But I guess you think they all "brainwashed", huh?
Well, maybe it's Grant Swank who is brainwashed into thinking that everyone that disagrees with Grant Swank is brainwashed? What do you think?
That was one of the many mistakes the article from Lambert Dolphin makes. That scripture clearly shows us that Paul is warning everyone that his first letter to the Thessalonians (4:17)confused folks, as it does today. We will all experience Satan's tribulation before Christ arrives.
for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
How does he interpret that to mean anyone will be raptured out of here and miss it?
If people, Christians, are not prepared for what will happen there will be a great falling away, as they will all rush to Satan, believing he is Christ coming to fly them away. The sad thing is they won't even realize what they are doing.
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