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1 posted on 07/07/2007 7:48:40 PM PDT by tnarg
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To: tnarg

I am a modified dispensationalist who believes the pre-tribbies are holding to a doctrine that has almost no scriptural basis. Nothing in the Bible indicates the church in an Age of Apostasy will be “raptured” out and not face the winnowing process that has been the fate of Christians in every age.


2 posted on 07/07/2007 7:54:48 PM PDT by attiladhun2 (Islam is a despotism so vile that it would warm the heart of Orwell's Big Brother)
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To: tnarg

Reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw a few years ago: warning, in case of Rapture, this car will be unmanned.

I remember thinking that would be pretty inconsiderate of the Lord to zap people out of vehicles barreling down city streets. (By the way, I don’t believe in a pretribulation rapture.)


5 posted on 07/07/2007 8:16:21 PM PDT by caseinpoint (Don't get thickly involved in thin things.)
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To: tnarg

“The belief in a secret rapture of believers before the tribulation”

Ummm, trust me it won’t be a secret.


9 posted on 07/07/2007 8:42:18 PM PDT by swmobuffalo (The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist.)
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To: tnarg
I really don’t see how Matthew 24:29-3l refutes the pre-trib rapture. Before we micro examine any verse, shouldn’t we take the context into account, i.e. the entire 24th {and some of the 25th} chapter?

Obviously, our Lord is telling of multiple events that will take place at different time periods. For example, verse 2; “I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” Here, I think Jesus is foretelling the Roman destruction of the temple. {70 A.D. ??} It should be safe to conclude this chapter covers a wide range of history.

Let’s look at the verses you have cited: 29 “Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

Sounds frightening enough. Jesus follows with the fig tree lesson. Then He assures us His Words will never pass away. Time for some more prophecy:

36”No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Oh-oh, Something’s wrong here? The Son of Man will come at an hour I do not expect? If I see great tribulation, the sun and moon darkened, stars “falling” etc. Let me assure you, I will be expecting my Master’s return at any minute.
When non-believers witness this, will they really be “eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage” and be living without a clue?

Who are “all the nations of the earth” that will mourn when His “sign” appears? It can’t be us, because we would not mourn, we would be relieved and happy at His appearing.

This is barely a beginning of the many reasons we believe there will be a “rapture”. I certainly don’t claim to speak for the many different variants of this teaching.

Is the point of your post to persuade us your point is correct? You may be, for I can never claim to be anything more than a simple student. Have you considered that some of us once believed as you do? With our present limitations, there will always be some things we don’t understand. There will always be some pieces of the “puzzle” that don’t seem to fit. For me, I am able to fit many more pieces with the “rapture” theory.

---------------------------------

“For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

“Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”

17 posted on 07/07/2007 11:09:14 PM PDT by labette
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Some interesting arguments have been made here.


34 posted on 07/08/2007 6:30:24 AM PDT by labette
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To: tnarg

There’s not many post-tribbers here on FR - nice to see that we can add one more to the tally.


37 posted on 07/08/2007 8:03:01 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (As heard on the Amish Radio Network! http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1675029/posts)
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To: tnarg

There is also 1 Cor. 15:51-52

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (NKJV)

I used to believe in a pre-trib rapture, but after reading the passage above, especially with regard to the “last trumpet”, and seeing that in Revelation there are several trumpets sounding, and after the last one sounds there will be a “harvest” on earth, I am strongly inclined to a post-trib, pre-millenial rapture.


53 posted on 07/08/2007 1:44:43 PM PDT by kiriath_jearim
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To: tnarg
Preaching a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Weakens the Church

..nonsense

The best treatment of eschatology I ever read was "Things To Come" by J. Dwight Pentecost. It may still be in print.

68 posted on 07/08/2007 4:07:25 PM PDT by WalterSkinner ( In Memory of My Father--WWII Vet and Patriot 1926-2007)
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To: tnarg
Just out of curiosity are you the same Grant Swank who has written dozens of articles for a website devoted to belief in a pre-tribulation rapture?

Your resume lists that you have written articles for RatpureReady.com Yet you claim that those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture are twisting the scriptures and comitting error "bordering on the horrific."

Why would you post articles for RaptureReady.com if you disagree so vehemently with their purpose?

109 posted on 07/10/2007 12:32:38 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: tnarg; Thinkin' Gal
The ‘Rapture’ is probably Jezebels greatest work.

Revelation 2

18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,

‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

Also: Proverbs 7

118 posted on 07/10/2007 10:49:16 AM PDT by Jeremiah Jr (Saturn is in Leo)
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To: tnarg
I guess I could never see why folks get so wrapped up about labels such as "pre-tribulation rapturists."

Such hair-splitting doesn't seem to square well with this:

I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. (Luke 10:21)

And:

Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 18:3)

Jesus is telling us something we're prone to forgetting: the fundamental elements of the faith are things that are accessible even to children. Jesus came for the likes of those -- and the church should focus on those elements.

By contrast, "the wise" are those who try to complicate the faith so that only specialists can understand it -- they're the ones who focus on the arcane problems associated with "pre-tribulation rapturists," and the like.

Look at the number of words expended by Mr. Swank who, instead of teaching the Gospel, spends his time promoting this very narrow controversy. It's things like this that prompted James to note:

Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.... Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. (James 3:1, 13-18)

Mr. Swank isn't the only teacher who's a problem here ... somebody else has been teaching the stuff he's arguing against.

But by singling out those naughty "pre-tribulation rapturists" in this us-vs.-them manner, Mr. Swank is, nevertheless, part of the problem.

158 posted on 07/11/2007 8:27:27 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: sauropod

Mark


264 posted on 07/19/2007 7:18:41 AM PDT by sauropod (Dorothy Parker, on Ernest Hemingway: “Deep down, he’s really superficial.”)
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To: tnarg
When you think about it, the pre-tribulation rapture is about saving bodies from pain. Bodies are material and temporary. God has never spared those He loved from physical pain. Matter of fact, He has used pain to temper and prepare.

God doesn't give a crap about bodies. Pre-tribulation rapture makes no sense spiritually.

289 posted on 07/20/2007 5:37:29 PM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: tnarg
Jesus only returns one time, and it's AFTER the Tribulation period. Christians who buy into the pre-tribulation theory and going to be caught unaware and unprepared when they are forced to go through the Tribulation. The Bible says that immediately after those days, the dead in Christ will arise, and those Christians who survive the Tribulation will be caught up to be with Him.

We see Christians all over the world being murdered and tortured for their Faith. Any Christian who thinks they are special and that won't have to suffer as the ones who have already been martyred are delusional. Prepare, or beware! The only thing anyone should be concerned with is leading the lost into Salvation!

318 posted on 07/21/2007 5:37:15 PM PDT by sokit2mebb (PEACE ON EARTH WILL ONLY COME AFTER JESUS RETURNS!)
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To: tnarg

The pre-trib rapture concept was manufactured in the 1800s in an 18 year old Plymouth Brethren girl’s dream, told to her Pastor, John Darby, and then relayed to C. I. Scofield who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture notion as a footnote in his popular Bible, hence the spread of the myth.

= = =

That’s the MYTH

as I’ve documented hereon before.

I forget which thread.


339 posted on 07/22/2007 4:25:48 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: tnarg
Preaching a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Weakens the Church

To the natural mind that is true, but Christianity isn't a business, we preach the truth even if it doesn't make a good business case.

368 posted on 07/23/2007 5:25:13 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.)
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To: tnarg

“The world is going to end by environmental collapse, and you will be damned unless you listen to me.”

“The world is going to end by God’s wrath, and you will be damned unless you listen to me.”

The same basic mentality drives both messages. Any kind of fixation with the end of the world is just strange and creepy. Live life: judgment day comes soon enough, and no matter what, you will have to defend your life and rise or fall on your record.

It happens at some distant time in the future, or it happens suddenly in the next moments. Either way, you’re in the same boat spiritually.


558 posted on 08/05/2007 8:07:47 PM PDT by HitmanLV ("Lord, give me chastity and temperance, but not now." - St. Augustine)
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To: tnarg
the rapture ("gathering together")

Augustinus said that proper understanding included as prerequisite a knowledge of languages. Rapture means something else, etymologically.

634 posted on 08/25/2007 7:41:53 AM PDT by RightWhale (It's Brecht's donkey, not mine)
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To: tnarg

I guess we’ll all find out when the times comes who’s right.

As an aside, how could the rapture possibly be secret? Wouldn’t somebody notice we were all gone?


669 posted on 08/30/2007 1:51:55 PM PDT by SandyInSeattle (Some people are like slinkys, the idea of them tumbling down a flight of stairs makes you smile.)
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To: tnarg
Mark it down as biblical an interpretation of truth: There is no pre-tribulation rapture.

There. . .fixed it.

681 posted on 08/31/2007 9:34:14 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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