On the same thread, about the tribes, another friend has asked the following:
The 144,000 witnesses have come up several times in this and other threads, so it's time I asked... What is the significance of the division of the tribes in Rev 7 ?
For those that believe these are literal Jews. And those that believe they are not. There's several questions for both camps.
Obviously, the twelve listed in Rev 7 differ from the original sons of Israel as identified in Gen 49, but they also differ in ways that are not so obvious...
1) The difference that is normally talked about is the omission of Dan, often explained as the result of Jacob's prophecy over him (interpreted as "the antichrist comes from you so you don't get to play in the game...").
But there are others difference too.
2) Levi appears in the list. Which agrees with the tribes by birth (Gen 49) but is different than the tribes by land allocation (recorded in Joshua) - where Levi is removed and Joseph is represent by the two "half-tribes" his sons Manasseh and Ephraim.
3) Even though Levi and Joseph are included in the list of twelve in Rev 7, one of the half-tribes of Joseph is still there - Manasseh, but not Ephraim.
4) Simeon appears in the list in Rev 7, even though his tribe has (apparently) completely disappeared following the civil war in the time of Solomon's son Rehoboam (when the ten tribes split off from the United Monarchy to create the northern kingdom of Israel - listed as the nine landed tribes Zebulun, Issachar, Asher, Naphtali, Dan, Manasseh, Ephraim, Reuben and Gad, and some members of Levi who had no land allocation. But the Bible makes no reference at this point to the Tribe of Simeon, leaving many to believe that the tribe had already disappeared due to the curse of Jacob.
So I am very curious to hear how different people interpret these twelve specifically named Tribes - both from a literal and a symbolic perspective.
His later question about the same topic:
But why this odd mixture of tribes and half tribes ...
This list of 12 is different than any other list in all of scripture.
What do you think??? .........Ping-Pong
[Revelation 7:4] is quite specific: And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. John was very familiar with the history of Israel and wrote simply: (verse 5) 12,000 from each tribe. This is not a difficult concept to understand unless you are totally ignorant of Old Testament history.
For those that believe these are literal Jews. And those that believe they are not. There's several questions for both camps.
We can dispel with any conjecture that these folks were all Jews. Only those of the Tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi were considered Jews.
[II Kings 16:6] At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day. This is the first place in scripture where the word Jew is used. If you read the first 5 verses of II Kings 16 you will see that the Jews are at war against Israel. Many people, not understanding Old Testament history, will marvel at this statement. You will read in [II Chronicles 11:1] And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he gathered of the house of Judah and Benjamin an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against Israel, that he might bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam. You will see now that Judah and Benjamin are at war against Israel.
Judah: Hebrew #3064. Yhuwdiy (yeh-hoo-dee')a Jehudite (i.e. Judaite or Jew), or descendant of Jehudah (i.e. Judah). Benjamin was the tribe spoken of in [I Kings 11:13] and they became known as Jews also since they became part of Judah. Levi also became part of the Southern Kingdom of Judah and you will read about that here: [II Chronicles 11:12-17] And in every several city he put shields and spears, and made them exceeding strong, having Judah and Benjamin on his side. And the priests and the Levites that were in all Israel resorted to him out of all their coasts. For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD: And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made. And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers. So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon. Levi also, by their citizenship in the Kingdom of Judah, became known as Jews.
The Greek word for Jew is: #2453. Ioudaios (ee-oo-dah'-yos)as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Jehudah. If you notice now in the New Testament they are described as Judaeans. Only Judah, Benjamin and Levi are mentioned in the Books of Ezra and Nehemiah as returning from Babylonian captivity to re establish the Kingdom of Judah and by the first century this area was referred to as Judaea.....not Israel.
So.....36,000 of these sealed individuals in [Revelation 7:5-8] can be called Jewish. The other 108,000 are Israelites.....but not Jews. This is a very tough concept for many folks to understand as they have been taught differently all their lives. But, as you can see, scripture explains it perfectly. All Jews are Israelites....but not all Israelites are Jews. This is the same as saying....all British are Europeans.....but not everyone from Europe is British. Like I said....it's a tough concept for some.
I need to break off here because of time constraints but will continue soon.
The twelve listed in [Revelation 7] are Judah, Rueben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamin. In Genesis 49 the same are listed except for the addition of Dan and Ephraim. Joseph, being the father of both Ephraim and Manasseh takes the place of Ephraim in Revelation and Dan is excluded for the following:
Dan is also left out of the genealogies of [I Chronicles 1-9]. The name of Dan appears in [2:1] but the tribal descendants are not listed as are the other eleven tribes because......
The tribe of Dan was guilty of gross idolatry and they even resorted to theft [Judges 18:11-31] in pursuing this practice.....for over five hundred years!
[Genesis 49:17-18] Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.
Dan will not be a part of the 144,000 that are sealed, but will wait for his salvation.....and it will come.
[Ezekiel 48:1] Now these are the names of the tribes. From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazarenan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan. Ezekiel is describing the apportionment of the land during the Millennium and as you can see....Dan is included.
Essentially.....Ephraim is Joseph.....along with Manasseh so this is a moot point.
Levi was removed from many lists in the Old Testament as they were the Priests....and as such, lived among the other tribes performing their duties locally. They were not given land in the Kingdom as they had no need for it. Thus they were not listed....except for genealogies, but they are listed among the 144,000 who are martyred during The Great tribulation [Revelation 7:14].