Protestants and the Pope

Westminster Writings (Westminster Seminary California ) ^ | July/August 2005 | W. Robert Godfrey

[kawaii]

here’s a list of simply major lutheran denominations:
Lutheran World Federation

Bolivian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Christian Lutheran Church of Honduras
Church of Denmark (Evangelical Lutheran Church in Denmark)
Church of Norway (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway)
Church of Sweden
Church of Iceland (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Iceland)
Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Ethiopian Evangelical Church Mekane Yesus (EECMY)
Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Slovakia
Silesian Evangelical Church of Augsburg Confession
Evangelical Church of the Lutheran Confession in Brazil
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church of Norway (Associate member)
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Chile
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Guyana
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Hanover
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Papua New Guinea
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Russia and Other States
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Southern Africa
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Suriname
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Venezuela
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Colombia
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland
Evangelical Lutheran Church of France
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Hong Kong
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Thuringia
Evangelical Lutheran State Church of Mecklenburg
India Evangelical Lutheran Church
Japan Evangelical Lutheran Church
Japan Lutheran Church (associate member)
Lutheran Church in Chile
Lutheran Church in Great Britain
Lutheran Church of Australia (associate member)
Lutheran Costarican Church
Malagasy Lutheran Church (Madagascar)
Mexican Lutheran Church
Nicaraguan Lutheran Church of Faith and Hope
North Elbian Evangelical Church
Salvadoran Lutheran Synod
United Evangelical Lutheran Church (Argentina)
Evangelical Community Church - Lutheran
Augustana Evangelical Catholic Communion
Protestant Lutheran Church in Bavaria
Protestant Lutheran State Church of Brunswick
[edit]United and uniting churches with Lutheran roots
Evangelical Church in Germany
Protestant Church in the Netherlands
[edit]International Lutheran Council

China Evangelical Lutheran Church
Christian Evangelical Lutheran Church of Bolivia
Evangelical Lutheran Church—Synod of France and Belgium
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Argentina
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Brazil
Evangelical Lutheran Church of England
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Ghana
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Haiti
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Ingria in Russia
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Paraguay
Evangelical Lutheran Church of the Republic of Chile
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church of Denmark
Free Evangelical Lutheran Synod in South Africa
Gutnius Lutheran Church
Independent Evangelical—Lutheran Church
India Evangelical Lutheran Church
Japan Lutheran Church
Lanka Lutheran Church
Lutheran Church - Canada
Lutheran Church—Hong Kong Synod
Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
Lutheran Church in Korea
Lutheran Church in Southern Africa
Lutheran Church in the Philippines
Lutheran Church of Australia (associate member)
Lutheran Church of Guatemala
Lutheran Church of Nigeria
Lutheran Church in Singapore and Malaysia
Lutheran Church of Venezuela
Lutheran Synod of Mexico
[edit]Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference

All Saints Lutheran Church of Nigeria - Nigeria
Bulgarian Lutheran Church - Bulgaria
Christ the King Lutheran (Nigeria) - Nigeria
Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Church (Mexico) - Mexico
Evangelical Lutheran Church “Concord” - Russia
Confessional Lutheran Church (Latvia) - Latvia
Czech Evangelical Lutheran Church - Czech Republic
Evangelical Lutheran Confessional Church (Finland) - Finland
Evangelical Lutheran Confessional Church (Puerto Rico) - Puerto Rico
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church (Germany) - Germany
Evangelical Lutheran Synod (Peru) - Peru
Evangelical Lutheran Synod - United States
The Lutheran Church of Cameroon - Cameroon
Lutheran Church of Central Africa Malawi Conference - Malawi
Lutheran Church of Central Africa Zambia Conference - Zambia
Lutheran Confessional Church (Sweden and Norway) - Sweden and Norway
Lutheran Evangelical Christian Church (Japan) - Japan
Ukrainian Lutheran Church - Ukraine
Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - United States
Gereja Lutheran Indonesia - Indonesia
[edit]Unaffiliated Lutheran denominations

American Association of Lutheran Churches (AALC)
Apostolic Lutheran Church of America
Association of Free Lutheran Congregations
Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America
Church of the Lutheran Confession (CLC)
Concordia Lutheran Church (Sweden)
Concordia Lutheran Conference
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church (UAC)
Evangelical Catholic Church
Evangelical Community Church-Lutheran
Evangelical Lutheran Conference & Ministerium of North America (ELCM)
Laestadian Lutheran Church
Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (USA)
Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Lutheran Church of New Zealand
Lutheran Churches of the Reformation (LCR)
Lutheran Churches of the Reformation in Nigeria
Lutheran Ministerium and Synod - USA
Lutheran Church of Cameroon
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Congo EELC-Brazzaville
Church of the Lutheran Brethren of Chad
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Cote d’Ivoire
Lutheran Church in Eritrea
Lutheran Church in Ethiopia
Evangelical Lutheran Church in the Gambia
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Guinea
Evangelical Lutheran Mission (Liberia)
Lutheran Church of Central Africa (Malawi & Zambia)
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Sudan
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Togo
Lutheran Church of Togo
Good Samaritan Evangelical Lutheran Church (India)
Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tamil Nadu
North Western Gossner Evangelical Lutheran Church
The Lutheran Church in India
Japan Lutheran Brethren Church
Laos Evangelical Lutheran Church
Tagakaulo Lutheran Church of Christ in the Philippines
The Lutheran Church of the Republic of China
Chinese Lutheran Brethren Church
China Lutheran Gospel Church
Lutheran Mission in Thailand
Siberian Evangelical Lutheran Church

[topcat54]

would be offended when Catholics think the same.

Who's offended?

[Alex Murphy]

here’s a list of simply major lutheran denominations

How many of them are you saying are not "in Communion", or do not adhere to a common creed(s), with each other?

[wmfights]

Peter (Petros) confesses that Jesus is the Christ, and Jesus responds that on this rock (petra) he will build his church. Most Protestants have insisted that Jesus the Christ is the rock on which the church is built. (Some argued that Peter as the confessor and believer in Christ stood for the faith of the church and in that sense was the rock.) Peter in his first epistle sees Jesus as the rock, calling Jesus the rock of offense (I Pet. 2:8).

424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church. From the RC Catechism.

It seems clear to me that any church that places ultimate authority in one man is not consistent with the structure of the church during the Apostolic era.

[kawaii]

the better question is how many aren’t and aren’t on that list.

[kawaii]

which is exactly why any religion that put’s it’s faith in every man is mistaken.

[topcat54]

There's a war on, and Catholic Christians are our allies, not our enemies.

Allies in what war? The Christian faith? Conservative politics?

If you believe that the gospel of Roman Catholicism is the gospel of the Bible, then you ought to be a Roman Catholic. They were here first, after all. (No offense to the Orthodox.)

Frankly, I'm surprised that Reformed protestants even care. God can choose to elect anyone He chooses - even the Pope.

If you think this is about God's secret sovereign election (decretive will), then you do not understand reformed theology.

[netmilsmom]

>>Allies in what war? The Christian faith? Conservative politics?<<

The war against Christianity in general not a war for the Christian faith.
The war against those who want to convert, enslave or kill us.

I’m sure you’re not saying that the Catholics are not willing to stand with other Christians in this fight or that you don’t want us on your side.

[kawaii]

what do you mean by *here*?

[RedDogzRule]

I am Lutheran-Missouri Synod and can state for a fact that we are in communion with many of the Lutheran “branches” you mentioned above. You have to remember that just because a body of Lutherans in a particular country or region gives itself a name, does not mean it’s defined by a separate theology or doctrine. Some groups are definitely far-out liberal or marginally Christian, denying even the fundamentals that mainline Catholics and Orthodox all adhere to. But that is the exception. By and large, we all consider each other brothers in Christ.

[lupie]

Two times I have now asked you where you got the 20,000 figure (I know where Alex got it!). And then I asked you where you came up with the "fact" that there are 5 new churches weekly.

You answered with: yeah that’s why everyone and their brother starts protestant churches, let’s face it you’ll are in such a massive disarray as to what scripture means you’re a single bible study from calling eachother heretics and finding another room to rent for your singing and reading classes.

How does that answer either question? I will ask them once more. And I will also ask you whether you consider churches as denominations? What is the difference in your opinion? Which one did you mean?

[topcat54]

Christianity in general

What's that?

[netmilsmom]

>>What’s that?<<

The infidels who Love our Lord Jesus Christ.

[kawaii]

are you in communion with this one?
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/jul/07070307.html

[kawaii]

i consider any set of folks with different leaders and beleifs to be a different denomination; that said why split heretics.

[RedDogzRule]

I’m no expert on every denomination, but I don’t believe we are in communion with any of the churches in the Lutheran World Federation. The state Lutheran church of Sweden, and Norway for example are not with us due to liberal teachings like the one you just mentioned. I think Finland is with us, though. I’ve been to Lutheran churches in Sweden and the pastors there preach to empty churches, except for a few very senior citizens and some kids fulfilling their communion lesson obligations. For all intents and purposes the state Lutheran church in Scandinavia is mostly dead. I think they are overreaching in their doctrine (per your example)in order to appear more appealing to the masses. Just my opinion, of course.

[MHGinTN]

"If many Protestants today are not persuaded that the pope is the Antichrist, what should we say of him?" He is the topmost of the Bishops in service to The Church, so he is due our respect and obedience, to some extent if you are a Catholic. If you are a Protestant like me, the Pope is titled as 'Holy Father' and he deserves to be called by his Catholic title.

As to whether Peter and therefore every Pope since has some special power not vested anywhere else on Earth, I am reminded of the Rock which Moses struck to bring forth water for life of the people. Christ is the Rock, not Peter, but object of Peter's profession is the rock upon which The Holy Spirit is given to the believer. Arguing with Catholics over this 'doctrine' is a thoroughly covered territory that needs no further survey. There is no 'victory' to be won or defeat to be borne in the exercise.

[kawaii]

so you’d agree then that when protestant folks deviate from doctrine in obvious ways it creates a separate denomination yes?

[MHGinTN]

Selah

[Alex Murphy]

Two times I have now asked you where you got the 20,000 figure (I know where Alex got it!). And then I asked you where you came up with the "fact" that there are 5 new churches weekly.

Did you know that we used to have over a million different Protestant denominations? How could we be adding five new ones weekly, if 96% of them have already healed their divisions since the beginning of this year?