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Pope: Other Christian Denominations Not True Churches
Fox News ^ | Tuesday, July 10, 2007 | Associated Press

Posted on 07/10/2007 12:57:57 PM PDT by Ancient Drive

LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy — For the second time in a week, Pope Benedict XVI has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, reasserting the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church and saying other Christian communities were either defective or not true churches.

Benedict approved a document released Tuesday from his old office, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which repeated church teaching on Catholic relations with other Christians.

(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Religion & Science
KEYWORDS: catholicism; pope
watch out for those Catholic Jihadists!lol :p
1 posted on 07/10/2007 12:58:03 PM PDT by Ancient Drive
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To: Ancient Drive
Previous Thread:

Pope: Other Christians not true churches

 

2 posted on 07/10/2007 1:02:36 PM PDT by Incorrigible (If I lead, follow me; If I pause, push me; If I retreat, kill me.)
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To: Ancient Drive
OK, it’s official. This Benedict guy is no Pope John-Paul. I guess he feels more comfortable making snidely comments against religions that don’t use suicide bombers to carry out assassinations.
3 posted on 07/10/2007 1:02:43 PM PDT by Dixie Yooper (Ephesians 6:11)
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To: Ancient Drive

Can one man really determine if a church is defective or not an actual church?


4 posted on 07/10/2007 1:04:01 PM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: Ancient Drive
Fundamentally speaking, AP ain't the Vatican, and even if FOX News reports what AP is peddling, that doesn't make the story any more valid.

Ratzinger is liable to say any number of things that people outside of the Catholic Church's "nomenklatura" probably can't understand.

None of this is surprising.

5 posted on 07/10/2007 1:05:34 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Ancient Drive

Nothing new here. If you believe the Catholic Church contains the fullness of truth then anything less than that is defective. Doesn’t take a genius to figure that out.


6 posted on 07/10/2007 1:15:20 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper (It looks like one of those days when one nuke is just not enough-- Lt. Col. Mitchell, SG-1)
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To: Dixie Yooper; Ancient Drive
OK, it’s official. This Benedict guy is no Pope John-Paul.OK, it’s official.

Whoa! I'm going to step in before this thread gets as out of whack as the other ones.

The document that was released today (you can read it here) mostly echos the document Dominus Iesus which was released with the express permission of Pope John Paul II. It is consistent with previous Catholic teaching.

If you have been misled to believe otherwise, and that this is somehow a change, then I sincerely apologize.

7 posted on 07/10/2007 1:19:11 PM PDT by GCC Catholic (Sour grapes make terrible whine.)
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To: muawiyah
>AP ain't the Vatican, and even if FOX News reports what AP is peddling, that doesn't make the story any more valid. Ratzinger is liable to say any number of things that people outside of the Catholic Church's "nomenklatura" probably can't understand

Is it possible
everything AP reports
is absolute truth

but you are too much
a bumpkin to understand?
Maybe the AP

should create layers
of intermediaries
to explain their truth...
8 posted on 07/10/2007 1:23:27 PM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: big'ol_freeper

And if you don’t, the Pope’s words still do you no harm. It is Christ Jesus that will be making these decisions, not any pope or priest or preacher.


9 posted on 07/10/2007 1:24:12 PM PDT by chesley (Where's the omelet? -- Orwell)
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To: theFIRMbss

AP should have its corporate charter pulled. Its assets should be put on public auction and its staff dispersed to minimize the harm they can do.


10 posted on 07/10/2007 1:25:33 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Ancient Drive

Wow, it really sucks to be the rest of you guys!

I can’t believe our Holy Father really said this.


11 posted on 07/10/2007 1:26:32 PM PDT by stm (Fred Thompson in 08! Return our country to the era of Reagan Conservatism)
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To: stm
>I can’t believe our Holy Father really said this

No, no, no! It all
makes sense, it is really nice,
and it doesn't mean

anything you think!
Wait for Catholic Freepers
to explain it all.
12 posted on 07/10/2007 1:29:27 PM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: theFIRMbss

The Religion For’m
Has turned to haiku again
How Fun! Can I play?


13 posted on 07/10/2007 1:38:46 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
>The Religion For’m/Has turned to haiku again/How Fun! Can I play?

Don't be a porcus
ex grege diaboli!
This stuff takes training!!
14 posted on 07/10/2007 1:41:24 PM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: Ancient Drive; kosta50; kronos77; FormerLib; NYer; Kolokotronis
The document said Orthodox churches were indeed "churches" because they have apostolic succession and that they enjoyed "many elements of sanctification and of truth." But it said they lack something because they do not recognize the primacy of the pope -- a defect, or a "wound" that harmed them, it said.

"This is obviously not compatible with the doctrine of Primacy which, according to the Catholic faith, is an 'internal constitutive principle' of the very existence of a particular Church," said a commentary from the congregation which accompanied the text.


Not sure if it's Fox or the document but it's misleading to say the Orthodox don't beleive in the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. Methinks it's Fox given Benedict has acknowledged before that the Orthodox acknowledge the primacy to a large extent.
15 posted on 07/10/2007 1:44:19 PM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: stm

No, think about it:

If Catholicism ISN’T the only TRUE church, then:

Confession doesn’t matter,
Valid reception of the Eucharist doesn’t matter,
Submitting your marriage to the pre-Cana process doesn’t matter,
All those Catholic morals (no divorce, no birth control, no abortion, no masturbation, no pornography) don’t matter,
The holy orders don’t matter.

What the Holy Father said picks up a harsh demeanor as filtered through the press, but if anyone doesn’t believe the substance of what the Holy Father said, they have no reason not to join an “easier” or more entertaining church. Furthermore, while his statements may annoy the Gene Robison-style Episcopalians, the ECLA Lutherans, and the PCUSA Presbyterians, I’m quite sure that the orthodox Anglicans, the Orthodox (Eastern) Catholics, the Missouri and Wisconsin Synods of the Lutheran churches, and the PCA or OCP Presbyterians will respect the Catholic Church’s stand far more; they, too, understand, that if all denominations were equally valid, than their doctrines are also worthless in turn.


16 posted on 07/10/2007 1:45:21 PM PDT by dangus
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To: theFIRMbss

Traning you may have
and knowledge of some Latin
to impress us all.

At least I’d never
mix Latin and English, too
in but one sentence.


17 posted on 07/10/2007 1:50:24 PM PDT by dangus
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To: kawaii

Yes, it’s quite likely that Fox has translated words misleadingly.


18 posted on 07/10/2007 1:51:24 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

“Yes, it’s quite likely that Fox has translated words misleadingly.”

Read the official document and spin away. It’s pretty much the way Fox has put it.


19 posted on 07/10/2007 1:57:35 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire, but I swear I didn't see it in my rear view mirror.)
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To: Ancient Drive

Are they going to send out the Knights to strike down all nonbelievers?


20 posted on 07/10/2007 2:05:15 PM PDT by wolfcreek (2 bad Tyranny, Treachery and Treason never take a vacation...)
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To: Ancient Drive

Can't "Christians" just get along? I mean we're all infidels and all...

21 posted on 07/10/2007 2:05:59 PM PDT by infidel29 (Amnesia International: Forget about the atrocities of the left, they meant well.)
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To: dangus

Why does that sound like Dr. Zeus on the first “Planet of the Apes”?? LOL!


22 posted on 07/10/2007 2:09:34 PM PDT by wolfcreek (2 bad Tyranny, Treachery and Treason never take a vacation...)
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To: kawaii; Ancient Drive; kronos77; FormerLib; NYer; Kolokotronis
Not sure if it's Fox or the document but it's misleading to say the Orthodox don't beleive in the primacy of the Bishop of Rome

The original document doesn't even mention the Orthodox Church by name. The only "fault" is the erroneous assertion by Cardinal Levada, who wrote it, and BXVI who approved it, is that because they don't recognize the Pope these churches lack something.

The Orthodox recognize the Pope. It's the extent of his jurisdiction that is in dispute. And it's because of Catholic innovations (theologically speaking) that we are not in communion with him.

The AP, Fox News and the Holy See are wrong.

23 posted on 07/10/2007 2:12:17 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: theFIRMbss
Me too, me too!


Papa Gratias.
Nunc licet mihi scribo
Haiku Latine.


[May my high school Latin teacher forgive my atrocious grammar.]
24 posted on 07/10/2007 2:48:05 PM PDT by GOPmember
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To: Ancient Drive

Well this gives the lie to the entire ecumenical movement.
It was run by Rome, not to unify Christianity, but to enforce the primacy of the pope.

-—Sorry, But I do not consider the pope an authority on anything, let a lone infallible.

I left the RCC, and became a Protestant. I have never regretted that decision. I no longer follow the make-believe fantasy of purgatory, nor do I pray to dead people.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
That pretty much leaves out Mary, and all the other saints.

When I was growing up a Catholic I was taught that people who did not accept the pope would not receive salvation.
A totally unbiblical statement if I ever heard one.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
And that pretty much leaves out the pope.

The popemeister can say whatever he wants. But when he talks crazy talk like this, don’t expect much respect from me.


25 posted on 07/10/2007 3:14:31 PM PDT by Cyclops08
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To: Ancient Drive
Another report from MSNBC: Pope: Other denominations not true churches

Pope: Other denominations not true churches Benedict issues statement asserting that Jesus established ‘only one church’

Jews have concerns over Latin mass

July 10: NBC's Stephanie Gosk reports on Pope Benedict XVI's revival of the traditional Latin mass and the firestorm it is generating.

MSNBC News Services
Updated: 9:52 a.m. ET July 10, 2007

LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.

Benedict approved a document from his old offices at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that restates church teaching on relations with other Christians. It was the second time in a week the pope has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 meetings that modernized the church. On Saturday, Benedict revisited another key aspect of Vatican II by reviving the old Latin Mass. Traditional Catholics cheered the move, but more liberal ones called it a step back from Vatican II.

Benedict, who attended Vatican II as a young theologian, has long complained about what he considers the erroneous interpretation of the council by liberals, saying it was not a break from the past but rather a renewal of church tradition.

In the latest document — formulated as five questions and answers — the Vatican seeks to set the record straight on Vatican II’s ecumenical intent, saying some contemporary theological interpretation had been “erroneous or ambiguous” and had prompted confusion and doubt.

It restates key sections of a 2000 document the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, “Dominus Iesus,” which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the “means of salvation.” In the new document and an accompanying commentary, which were released as the pope vacations here in Italy’s Dolomite mountains, the Vatican repeated that position.

“Christ ‘established here on earth’ only one church,” the document said. The other communities “cannot be called ‘churches’ in the proper sense” because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ’s original apostles.

‘Identity of the Catholic faith’ The Rev. Sara MacVane of the Anglican Centre in Rome, said there was nothing new in the document. “I don’t know what motivated it at this time,” she said. “But it’s important always to point out that there’s the official position and there’s the huge amount of friendship and fellowship and worshipping together that goes on at all levels, certainly between Anglican and Catholics and all the other groups and Catholics.”

The document said Orthodox churches were indeed “churches” because they have apostolic succession and that they enjoyed “many elements of sanctification and of truth.” But it said they lack something because they do not recognize the primacy of the pope — a defect, or a “wound” that harmed them, it said.

“This is obviously not compatible with the doctrine of primacy which, according to the Catholic faith, is an ‘internal constitutive principle’ of the very existence of a particular church,” the commentary said.

Despite the harsh tone of the document, it stresses that Benedict remains committed to ecumenical dialogue. “However, if such dialogue is to be truly constructive, it must involve not just the mutual openness of the participants but also fidelity to the identity of the Catholic faith,” the commentary said.

‘Not backtracking on ecumenical commitment’ The document, signed by the congregation prefect, U.S. Cardinal William Levada, was approved by Benedict on June 29, the feast of Sts. Peter and Paul — a major ecumenical feast day.

There was no indication about why the pope felt it necessary to release the document, particularly since his 2000 document summed up the same principles. Some analysts suggested it could be a question of internal church politics, or that it could simply be an indication of Benedict using his office as pope to again stress key doctrinal issues from his time at the congregation.

Father Augustine Di Noia, undersecretary for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, said the document did not alter the commitment for ecumenical dialogue, but aimed to assert Catholic identity in those talks.

“The Church is not backtracking on ecumenical commitment,” Di Noia told Vatican radio.

“But, as you know, it is fundamental to any kind of dialogue that the participants are clear about their own identity. That is, dialogue cannot be an occasion to accommodate or soften what you actually understand yourself to be.”

26 posted on 07/10/2007 3:45:28 PM PDT by Doctor13
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To: kawaii
Regarding John Paul II, did you know that although the Pope said "no" to the war in Iraq," the Pope said "yes," to the war against the Serbs, as a war that was justified?

He was even criticized by several of his priests and cardinals.

Rome's daily La Repubblieg, published on 14 August 1993, a front cover illustration of the pope at the top of a minaret calling: "Isus (Warren) Christopher, save us." The Italian Press condemned Pope John Paul for blessing an American air assault on Serb positions and for asking President Clinton to launch it without delay.

On 15 August 1993, Roman Catholic priest, Don Albino Bizzotto, founder of the Beati Construttovi di Pace peace and charity organization, assessed the Pope's call for air strikes on Bosnian Serbs as 'disappointing' and 'double-dealing. "We cannot understand those who speak about mercy and military intervention at the same time," he said. Fr. Bizzotto went on to say: "The Pope's behavior is like a leading big power, who tries to cure their hypocrisies and failures with armed interventions."

No compassion was ever shown by Pope John Paul II for the misery and deaths of Serbian women and children that would follow NATO's air assaults. The civil war in the Balkans was won by images of atrocities on CNN and the other major networks, atrocities alleged to have been committed by Serbian forces when in reality, they were often self-inflicted by Bosnian Muslim forces, "designed to shock the West, especially sentimental and gullible Washington, in order to raise the level of Western sympathy to the Bosnian Muslims and further demonize the Serbs," as well-known author Yossef Bodansky wrote in his 1995 book, "Offensive in the Balkans."

It is well known amongst Orthodox Christians that the Vatican has long desired the demise of the Orthodox church. The pope's justifying the 78-day bombing campaign against the Orthodox Christian Serbs proves it.

27 posted on 07/10/2007 4:04:27 PM PDT by Doctor13
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To: kosta50

“A 16-page document by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which Pope Benedict once headed, described Christian Orthodox churches as true churches, but suffering from a “wound” since they do not recognise the primacy of Pope.”

http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKL1019535720070710

So this is totaly different than original news title.


28 posted on 07/10/2007 4:05:07 PM PDT by kronos77 (-www.savekosovo.org- and -www.kosovo.net- Save Kosovo from Islam!)
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To: kawaii
When Christianity first began, there was only one Church that all Christians belonged to. It was comprised of the Bishop of Antioch, the Bishop of Alexandria, the Bishop of Rome, the Bishop of Jerusalem, and the Bishop of Constantinople.

It was when the Bishop of Rome elevated himself to Pope thus creating the schism in 1054 where the other four Bishops refused to recognized the "infallibility of the Pope," (as I understand it, it is when the Pope speaks as God on earth, therefore, he cannot err.)

This was considered blasphemous by the other Bishops.

Any thoughts on this?

29 posted on 07/10/2007 4:16:01 PM PDT by Doctor13
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To: dangus; GOPmember
>At least I’d never/mix Latin and English, too/in but one sentence

"Ad hoc, ad loc and
quid pro quo! So little time,
and so much to know ..."

30 posted on 07/10/2007 4:39:12 PM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: kronos77
"So this is totaly different than original news title."

The Holy See site gives less than a 16-page document, so apparently now there are two sources. But from what i could read, this is really nothing new. The only flagrant error, which completely caught me off guard, was the assertion that the Orthodox don't recognize the pope because. Pope Benedict is keenly aware that the Orthodox are bound by the Fourth Ecumenical Council and by the Sixth Ecumenical Council to recognize Petrine Primacy. We are arguing with them over the extent of his jurisdictional authority which was different in the first millennium.

31 posted on 07/10/2007 4:44:29 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50

True, this document is nothing new, even much softer towards Orthodox churches, and news title was sensationalistic.


32 posted on 07/10/2007 5:07:58 PM PDT by kronos77 (-www.savekosovo.org- and -www.kosovo.net- Save Kosovo from Islam!)
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To: stm
Wow, it really sucks to be the rest of you guys! I can’t believe our Holy Father really said this.

Your sincerity is so meaningful during this crisis in our lives, Thank you so much :^)

33 posted on 07/10/2007 5:09:27 PM PDT by Dixie Yooper (Ephesians 6:11)
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To: stm
It seems that he didn't, and that news title was exaggerated by far.
34 posted on 07/10/2007 5:11:54 PM PDT by kronos77 (-www.savekosovo.org- and -www.kosovo.net- Save Kosovo from Islam!)
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To: Doctor13

You need to brush up, or more accurately, actually learn factual history.


35 posted on 07/10/2007 5:17:51 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: Ancient Drive

Of course he believes this. It’s a basic tenet of the Catholic faith.

This Protestant isn’t at all bothered or offended.


36 posted on 07/10/2007 6:22:48 PM PDT by Zechariah_8_13 (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point.)
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To: chesley

** It is Christ Jesus that will be making these decisions, not any pope or priest or preacher.**

Hopefully you are aware that the Pope is the vicar of Christ on earth??


37 posted on 07/10/2007 6:43:57 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Dixie Yooper
OK, it’s official. This Benedict guy is no Pope John-Paul

It's awesome. Maybe someday he'll up and reaffirm the Catholic dogma that outside the Catholic Church there is absolutely no salvation. Most people don't know that's defined Catholic dogma. If someone didn't know it was, does their due diligence and finds out that it actually is dogma, and yet obstinately refuses to believe it after working through the matter with eye to sincerely knowing and believing the Catholic truth, they've just lost the Catholic Faith.

38 posted on 07/10/2007 6:59:34 PM PDT by reductio
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To: Ancient Drive
Pope: Other Christian Denominations Not True Churches

And so what's the controversy here?

39 posted on 07/10/2007 7:20:35 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: dangus
"What the Holy Father said picks up a harsh demeanor as filtered through the press, but if anyone doesn’t believe the substance of what the Holy Father said, they have no reason not to join an “easier” or more entertaining church. Furthermore, while his statements may annoy the Gene Robison-style Episcopalians, the ECLA Lutherans, and the PCUSA Presbyterians, I’m quite sure that the orthodox Anglicans, the Orthodox (Eastern) Catholics, the Missouri and Wisconsin Synods of the Lutheran churches, and the PCA or OCP Presbyterians will respect the Catholic Church’s stand far more; they, too, understand, that if all denominations were equally valid, than their doctrines are also worthless in turn." Is this an argument that needs to be engaged in? Are you certain of that, and if so, would one like to defend against the inevitable counter claims of "moral equivelancy" that would be soon to come, and would serve to do nothing but inflame passions that should be quite burned out by now.
40 posted on 07/11/2007 7:13:14 AM PDT by padre35 (Conservative in Exile.)
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To: markomalley
>Pope: Other Christian Denominations Not True Churches
>>And so what's the controversy here?

The controversy
is the debate over when
the Pope will sentence

bad, naughty "Christians"
to the comfy chair to bring
them back to the faith!

41 posted on 07/11/2007 7:13:43 AM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: markomalley
>Pope: Other Christian Denominations Not True Churches
>>And so what's the controversy here?

The controversy
is the debate over when
the Pope will sentence

bad, naughty "Christians"
to the comfy chair to bring
them back to the faith!

42 posted on 07/11/2007 7:13:49 AM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: All
Sorry about that
double post thing! Please do not
put me on the rack!
43 posted on 07/11/2007 7:15:23 AM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: Ancient Drive

“I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME.”
— Jesus Christ, John 14:6


44 posted on 07/11/2007 8:56:43 AM PDT by Ancient Drive
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To: Salvation

I’m aware that Catholics think he is. To me he is just another man, like any preacher.

Sorry, but that’ss the way that I see it.


45 posted on 07/11/2007 10:43:05 AM PDT by chesley (Where's the omelet? -- Orwell)
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To: padre35

Include the Southern Baptists as among those respecting the Pope’s position, even if not agreeing with it.


46 posted on 07/11/2007 10:44:28 AM PDT by chesley (Where's the omelet? -- Orwell)
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To: Doctor13

well for starters i’m orthodox.

though i’d have to astrix your comment... strictly speaking antioch had split earlier and returned to the 3 sees


47 posted on 07/11/2007 9:25:22 PM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kosta50

ive read the orthodox are not referenced by name...


48 posted on 07/11/2007 9:26:56 PM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: theFIRMbss

Not until after the Know-Nothings make their comeback.


49 posted on 07/12/2007 1:49:57 AM PDT by D-fendr
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