Posted on 07/14/2007 6:29:17 PM PDT by NYer
You have my sympathy.Just as inappropriate, liturgical dancing done by Sister So and So, usually wearing a unitard.
By the way, the girls at the link I posted are dressed similarly to those in your story. Mind you, I wouldn’t let any of my daughters wear as underwear what the dancers wore at Mass.
“...but for the rest of us, our intent is good, and I think that’s what matters to the Man Upstairs.”
That sounds very nice and neat (actually it sounds rather protestant), but it is not only the intent of the people in the pews that matters. In fact, it’s irrelevant to the manifestation of the Sacrament. It’s possible for the intention of the priest to invalidate a consecration. Not just illicit, invalid, in specific circumstances. It’s not your belief in the Sacrament of the Eucharist that makes it a sacrament. There is a real danger of your being deprived of Grace regardless of your good intent if the priest is not fulfilling his duty.
Yep. He is the guy. Also Publisher-in-Chief of Oregon Catholic Press - purveyor of everyone’s “favorite” hymnal.
This diocese has not gotten a nickel from me for several years.
And yes, Bishop Vasa is one of the good guys. To bad he is not in Ptld.
I wanted to believe that but, had that been the case, they would have been taken from the Tabernacle. No ... these were brought out fresh from the Sacristy AFTER the Consecration.
And while you’re at it, say a few prayers for the poor schmucks like myself who don’t have any choice (save a 3 hour drive) and must put up with this all the time. At least you didn’t have to witness any liturgical dance!!
I'm guessing you have joined this forum after my experience with introducing liturgical dance at my former RC parish. That story is legend here in the Religion Forum ;-) I battled the parish Director for Religious Education, the pastor and when that did not stop it, I wrote to the diocesan Office for Liturgy and Worship. In their initial response to my letter, they wrote back defending the pastor who told me to think of it as "liturgical movement". They even cited an arcane VCII document on multiculturalism. Undaunted, I wrote them a 2nd time quoting from Canon law - "all Catholics are entitled to a valid liturgy". That ended the liturgical dance at the parish!
Since you are in a similar predicament to where I was 3+ years ago, I would strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with this excellent resource.
Is Your Mass Valid? - Liturgical Abuse. It was my resource in addressing liturgical dance at my former parish.
Blu, I don't know where you live but when the abuses reached the breaking point, and with the assistance of Catholic freepers in this forum, I went looking for a new parish. Someone suggested visiting an Eastern Catholic Church. There were 2 in my area and I included them on the list of 8 parishes to visit. I began the process with a prayer, asking our Lord to guide me to "a holy priest, a reverent liturgy and a community where my God given abilities could be of assistance. It was in the Maronite (Eastern) Catholic Church, that I found my new home. That was more than 3 years ago and it has been one of the greatest blessings in my life. Our pastor is bi-ritual (Maronite and Latin Rite), speaks 8 languages fluently including Latin, Koine Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. It is a joy to attend Mass there each Sunday.
There are 22 Churches that make up the One, Holy, Catholic Church. Although there are 22 Churches, there are only eight "Rites" that are used among them. A Rite is a "liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony," (Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, canon 28). "Rite" best refers to the liturgical and disciplinary traditions used in celebrating the sacraments. Many Eastern Catholic Churches use the same Rite, although they are distinct autonomous Churches. For example, the Ukrainian Catholic Church and the Melkite Catholic Church are distinct Churches with their own hierarchies. Yet they both use the Byzantine Rite.
To learn more about the "two lungs" of the Catholic Church, visit this link:
The Vatican II Council declared that "all should realize it is of supreme importance to understand, venerate, preserve, and foster the exceedingly rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern churches, in order faithfully to preserve the fullness of Christian tradition" (Unitatis Redintegrato, 15).
To locate an Eastern Catholic Church in your community, follow the following link:
Eastern Catholic Churches in the U.S.
A Roman rite Catholic may attend any Eastern Catholic Liturgy and fulfill his of her obligations at any Eastern Catholic Parish. A Roman rite Catholic may join any Eastern Catholic Parish and receive any sacrament from an Eastern Catholic priest, since all belong to the Catholic Church as a whole.
The Eastern Rites are a fine option for those with reasonable access to them.
However we Latin Rite Catholics have a right to attend valid and licit Masses in our own churches.
You city folk sure are lucky!
That is the general rule. I understand though that the Bishop can make an exception to the rule.
The Precious Blood is never allowed to be reserved from a previous Mass.
That is true, and I found that the possibility that the Precious Blood may have been reserved to be shocking. Again, being charitable, perhaps too much wine was consecrated at a previous Mass to be consumed by the priest and EMHC's that the priest elected to reserve It for the following Mass. It is not right, but perhaps he thought it the better part of valor? Though it makes no sense to me to consecrate even more wine.
To knowingly distribute or receive unconsecrated bread or wine seems to me like idolatry.
To knowingly do so is idolatry, no if, ands, or buts about it.
You are most charitable in your response. Since the 5pm Mass on Saturday is the first "weekend" Mass, it would be impossible for there to be enough 'previously' consecrated wine and hosts to fill 6 cups. No, absolutely not! I am very familiar with this parish. It is large but not large enough for them to have be so disorganized as to have that much left over from a weekday Mass.
Finally, there is the kooky idea that the stupid laity get very confused and disturbed because Christ is present on the Altar, present in the Word, present in our song and present in the assembly. And if He is present in the tabernacle, well the laity can't handle that.
This is an upscale parish ... affluent and well educated parishioners. Even so, they place total trust in their pastor to deliver to them the proper liturgy. It would never occur to anyone of them to read the GIRM much less confront the pastor on a possible abuse, because he is perceived as very orthodox.
After posting this thread, I called my pastor and described in detail the exact sequence of events at this Mass. Though I know otherwise, I asked if it were possible for the Consecration to extend beyond the walls of the Sanctuary and into the Sacristy. He assured me that it was not possible. He too was surprised at what occured but rationalized it by noting that the pastor in question is one of the bishop's right hand men.
welcome to the club of religious fanatacism. My parents think the same of me.
I wasn't always this way. Despite 12 years of Catholic school, I have my fellow Catholic freepers to thank for much of my Catholic education. And, once you know the truth, there is no turning back.
Our Lord not only heard and responded to my prayer to lead me to "a holy priest, a reverent liturgy and a community where my God-given abilities could be of assistance", He has delivered me to parish where my Catholic faith has grown immensely and the pastor is just a cell phone call away, at any time of day. This is such a blessing!
Thank you for quoting the GIRM! It is, as I suspected.
If it were not for sparing your Mom’s feelings, I would encourage you strongly to write to the Bishop, simply describing the situation as you saw it, like you did for us here, for his information and consideration.
Ahhhhh ... this is Albany - Bishop Hubbard country. The pastor of this parish, though 'orthodox', is one of his right hand men. The Bishop has already heard from me in the past regarding liturgical abuse at another parish. In that particular instance, I won! But it was just the beginning because there were other abuses as well.
This evening's NO Mass was a reminder of why I joined a Maronite Catholic parish. These situations simply do not, nor can they, develop. Communion is by intinction and only on the tongue. There are no EMHCs nor communion in the hand. The priest is in total control of the Divine Liturgy. Though small in size, this parish is large in its rich tradition that pre-dates the Traditional Latin Mass.
Just out of curiosity, what percentage of your fellow parishioners, do you suppose, are Latin Rite refugees?
A sacristan should know the correct spelling of altar.
Ever read the GIRM?
** the remaining hosts were gathered together into 2 of the silver and gold communion cups and placed in the Tabernacle.**
Doesn’t quite sound like a ciborium. Since the hosts were consecrated for the Mass and then saved for the next Mass, they are nevertheless, still consecrated. I think you know that.
Did the EMHCs consume the remaining Precious Blood and bring the chalices out to be purified by the priest? That is the correct procedure now. Our priest or deacon purifies the chalices each week. BTW, the extra chalices filled with the appropriate amount of wine are always present on the altar during the consecration of the priest’s cup, and so they also are consecrated.
I did, at a Christmas mass of all services. I thought to myself- things are really getting strange.
**I do, however, feel no obligation to attend an invalid or irreverent Mas**
While you have no desire, some of us do attend a NO Mass. In the GIRM are the guidelines that despite the sinfulness of the priest, let’s say alchoholism, as long as he is a validly ordained priest, the Mass is valid. Thus the consecration, Communion, etc. are also valid.
Many times we get too judgmental. (I had to check on this myself, because I was concerned about the validly of a Mass where a priest spoke about an Eastern religion in terms not acceptable to me. (Hinduism)
I think you mean altar, correct?
You might phrase it by asking your priest when he will start offering “the extraordinary form” - that will tip him off that you’ve read Summum Pontificum and know the reasoning and legitimacy of your request. Godspeed!
Thanks for the tip, I’ll let you know what he says.
**Archbishop Vlazny heads the Portland Archdiocese, which covers western Oregon. This was the first diocese in the country to declare bankruptcy in the abuse scandal.**
This is all settled. Only a few loose ends to tie up at this time. Thank you, God!
We had a whole special edition of the Catholic newspaper put into each bulletin about the wonderful end of the case!
BTW, my own pastor is extremely orthodox and ready to practice all the latest things mandated by the Pope, including a well celebrated NO Mass. He only has to bring the Music Director into his way of thinking. He been working on it for three years now, and we are starting to see slight changes in the music.
Pray for more for us, OK?
**No ... these were brought out fresh from the Sacristy AFTER the Consecration.**
As someone already mentioned, did these come from a dual tablernacle, one that faces both the Sacristy and an Adoration Room? Or is there a second tablernacle (I know it would be unusal) in the sacristy?
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