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From the "I'm not making this stuff up" dept: Porn star now seeks priesthood instead
Taipei Times ^ | Jul 15, 2007 | NYTimes News Service

Posted on 07/15/2007 4:04:01 PM PDT by fgoodwin

Porn star now seeks priesthood instead

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2007/07/15/2003369673
http://tinyurl.com/2wv9qm

NEW YORK TIMES NEWS SERVICE, OAK PARK, CALIFORNIA
Sunday, Jul 15, 2007, Page 7

Some people have their midlife crisis in reverse, like Ronald Boyer, who for most of his professional life has been better known as a star of pornographic films, Rod Fontana.

After 30 years of sowing the wildest of oats, Boyer, 54, has searched his soul and chosen, to the surprise of family and colleagues, to seek a priesthood in the Episcopal Church.

From his work in the rented villas of the San Fernando Valley, where hard-core sex films are shot, Boyer has moved just a short distance west, to the Church of the Epiphany, which is guiding his transformation from pornography star to preacher.

The psychic distance, however, has been vast. In January, the lumbering 183cm performer was greeting fans on the red carpet of the Adult Video News Awards in Las Vegas, along with the superstars of pornography like Jenna Jameson and Ron Jeremy.

In June, Boyer was carrying the Holy Bible and a text titled "Gospel Light" to a live Internet show where he preached on the relative evils of pornography.

"Is pornography a sin?" Boyer asked on the show, which is aimed at people in the sex industry. "Probably. Definitely," he answered, a response that reflected his own ambivalence as much as a desire not to alienate his audience. "So is eating carrot cake until you're sick to your stomach," he continued. "And so is punching somebody in the face. That's a sin."

Boyer's embryonic ministry, devoted to bringing spiritual comfort to those marginalized by the sex industry, is driven by his deep faith and by a medical crisis that threatened the life of his child. But it is a work in progress, fraught with the contradictions and internal struggles of a man leaving behind a livelihood that was central to his identity.

He has tired of performing in sex movies, but even now doesn't condemn it. "Not one time did Jesus refer to pornography, or homosexuality," he observed on the Internet show, which he began as a co-host in May. "Jesus could have commented. He didn't."

Still, to pursue a new path as a religious leader, he had to make a clear choice. At the end of January, Boyer, who is married to a recently retired adult-film star, Liza Harper, announced his own retirement and gave up directing and performing in hard-core movies, he said, for good. "I don't enjoy it anymore," he said at the time.

Boyer's embrace of Christianity was not a result of a bolt-from-the-blue conversion. It was a gradual awakening to spirituality, in part stirred by unsettling changes in the multibillion-dollar pornography industry, which has veered into extreme territory in search of new ways of selling sex.

His journey from one private corner of American society to another has, by chance, traced the contours of America's experiment with sexual liberation to a return to more traditional values.

For Boyer, his path completes a circle. He grew up in a conservative Southern Baptist community in South Carolina, where he was baptized.

The contradiction between giving up pornography and feeling its attraction was still apparent in June, four months after retiring. "I love sex," he said. "I love performing. I love the combination of the two. I could go back and do it again, but I don't think I would. I had a passion for that. I put it there. Now I've channeled my passion to a different place."

The process to priesthood will take several years. Boyer began by being confirmed in the Episcopal Church this year. He is undergoing training to become a deacon, which will allow him to conduct most aspects of ministering short of the sacraments.

"I am hoping he can bring hopefulness and a love of Christ to people who desperately need it," said the Reverend Hank Mitchel, vicar of the church, on a recent Sunday after services.


TOPICS: Current Events; Mainline Protestant; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: apostasy; apostates; bornagain; ecusa; episcopagans; episcopalchurch; episcopalians; heresy; heretics; ministry; porn; tec
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Of course, this is happening in the Episcopal Church -- I wonder this guy couldn't have chosen the Unitarian or United Church of Christ? No, he had to choose the Episcopal Church.
1 posted on 07/15/2007 4:04:07 PM PDT by fgoodwin
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To: Huber

Please ping your Anglican list.


2 posted on 07/15/2007 4:05:01 PM PDT by fgoodwin (Fundamentalist, right-wing nut and proud father of a Star Scout!)
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To: fgoodwin

Probably go the same seminary as Jim McGreevey.


3 posted on 07/15/2007 4:17:09 PM PDT by madprof98 ("moritur et ridet" - salvianus)
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To: fgoodwin

And his choice of Episcopalian to devote himself to God and mankind is bad because...??


4 posted on 07/15/2007 4:18:15 PM PDT by theDentist (Qwerty ergo typo : I type, therefore I misspelll.)
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To: fgoodwin

Jesus came for people just like this guy.


5 posted on 07/15/2007 4:19:25 PM PDT by Wheee The People (Go FRed)
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To: fgoodwin
"Not one time did Jesus refer to pornography, or homosexuality," he observed on the Internet show, which he began as a co-host in May. "Jesus could have commented. He didn't."

As I recall, Jesus also forgot to mention bank robbery. So, STICK 'EM UP!

6 posted on 07/15/2007 4:46:27 PM PDT by madprof98 ("moritur et ridet" - salvianus)
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To: fgoodwin
the lumbering 183cm performer

Sha-wing!

Oh, that metric stuff always screws me up.

Never mind.

7 posted on 07/15/2007 4:49:04 PM PDT by keat (You know who I feel bad for? Arab-Americans who truly want to get into crop-dusting.)
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To: fgoodwin
He has tired of performing in sex movies, but even now doesn't condemn it. "Not one time did Jesus refer to pornography, or homosexuality," he observed on the Internet show, which he began as a co-host in May. "Jesus could have commented. He didn't."

He told the woman at the well to " Go and sin, no more." He was speaking to you too!

8 posted on 07/15/2007 5:03:10 PM PDT by sausageseller (Look out for the jackbooted spelling police. There! Everywhere!(revised cause the "man" accosted me!)
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To: madprof98
What the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about homosexuality
9 posted on 07/15/2007 5:07:03 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: fgoodwin

I am a sinner, too.

Sinners need saving.

Jesus Christ died so all of us sinners could be saved.

God’s grace works on everyone who will let it.


10 posted on 07/15/2007 5:13:29 PM PDT by Delta 21 ( MKC USCG - ret)
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To: All

Rod Fontana..HAHAHAHHA...rod! What a crummy pornstar name.


11 posted on 07/15/2007 5:39:48 PM PDT by escapefromboston (manny ortez: mvp)
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To: escapefromboston

Also don’t check out his resume on IMDB.


12 posted on 07/15/2007 5:41:04 PM PDT by escapefromboston (manny ortez: mvp)
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To: keat

If that is puplic knowledge as is his porn career.....be kinda hard to look into his eyes.


13 posted on 07/15/2007 5:45:05 PM PDT by Global2010 ( Once I went Nanny Goat at the Ocean and then a Rip Tide hit me.)
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To: fgoodwin
He has tired of performing in sex movies, but even now doesn't condemn it. "Not one time did Jesus refer to pornography, or homosexuality," he observed on the Internet show, which he began as a co-host in May. "Jesus could have commented. He didn't."

Chuckles
14 posted on 07/15/2007 5:47:22 PM PDT by Vision ("Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in him." Jeremiah 17:7)
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To: fgoodwin

I wonder if he’s doing this under the imprimateur of the bishop and the diocese or if he’s doing it on his own. There are plenty of people who don’t have such obvious moral flaws who are rejected from diocesan support for seminary. You can attend on your own dime, but I’m not sure how you go about getting a bishop to ordain you.


15 posted on 07/15/2007 5:48:01 PM PDT by ichabod1 ("Liberals read Karl Marx. Conservatives UNDERSTAND Karl Marx." Ronald Reagan)
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To: Delta 21
Jesus Christ died so all of us sinners could be saved.

Need to read the fine print. Sinners need to repent and turn away from their sin. (And I won't even get into the universal/particular atonement issues raised by your comment).

16 posted on 07/15/2007 5:49:47 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: PAR35

Tear it up. You seemed to be primed for it.


17 posted on 07/15/2007 5:53:09 PM PDT by Delta 21 ( MKC USCG - ret)
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To: Delta 21
Tear it up. You seemed to be primed for it.

No, I'm not the one who thinks that he's more powerful than God.

18 posted on 07/15/2007 6:07:44 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: PAR35

Which part of,” I am a sinner.” did you not understand?


19 posted on 07/15/2007 6:30:09 PM PDT by Delta 21 ( MKC USCG - ret)
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To: madprof98

Jesus called the money-changers in the Temples, "thieves" and "robbers." I don't think He called them this because it was in some way a good thing.

20 posted on 07/15/2007 6:57:28 PM PDT by Mr. Know It All (Term Limits: Stop us before we vote again!)
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To: Delta 21
I was, of course, referring to this:

God’s grace works on everyone who will let it .

Or a weak God who can only save those who will let him save them. So since they (you) can control what God can and cannot do, you must consider yourself to be stronger than God.

21 posted on 07/15/2007 7:03:34 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: PAR35

I (have) never said I could control what God could or could not do.


22 posted on 07/15/2007 7:06:52 PM PDT by Delta 21 ( MKC USCG - ret)
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To: fgoodwin
"Not one time did Jesus refer to pornography, or homosexuality," he observed on the Internet show, which he began as a co-host in May. "Jesus could have commented. He didn't."

WRONG! I suggest he look up the meaning of the greek word "pornea" (where we get the word pornography) - Jesus condemns it several times in the gospels (In Matthew and Mark)

23 posted on 07/15/2007 7:07:38 PM PDT by joebuck
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To: joebuck

But that doesn’t fit in his concept of “Fuzzy God”
THE FUZZY GOD

If you ask around, you find that there are not at all many hard-core atheists about. Most people say they believe in “god”, but I want to suggest that they are usually not talking about the Creator God of the Bible, but about a false, “fuzzy” god, whom I shall label “fuzzgod” for short.

Unless our concept of God is totally based upon what God has revealed about Him- self, the word “God” has no fixed content, and communicates no objective meaning. As evolution has eroded trust in the reliability of the Bible, many churches have begun contemplating such ideas as whether God could be referred to as “she”. Let’s face it—if people are only talking about a god of their own imaginings (which is all that is possible if the revelation of the true God is effectively discarded) they might be conceivably talking about a three-horned cosmic cow.

On the other hand, once revelation is accepted as authoritative, there is no room for argument on the subject of God’s “gender.” Having been told that God is spirit, we are plainly told that He wishes believers to address Him as Father, not mother—end of discussion.

Let’s list some features of this popular god of today:

l. “Fuzzgod” is not a god of holiness. Whereas the true God hates sin and has repeatedly acted in judgment in history, fuzzgod wouldn’t do anything like that. Fuzzgod only makes people feel good, not bad. Fuzzgod is convenient to give comfort when you need warm fuzzies, and doesn’t really mind about you cheating on your tax. Fuzzgod is good to send just about everyone to heaven (or maybe arrange reincarnation).

2. Fuzzgod accommodates everyone’s opinions. We’ve all heard people say what they think God would or wouldn’t do, oblivious to the pronouncements of the Bible. They must be talking about fuzzgod, since the true God gas set down what is right and wrong regardless of our opinion.

3. The character of the true God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Many regard that as a little stodgy today—unwilling to change (evolve) with the times. Not like fuzzgod, who is quite flexible, depending on the need—sort of fuzzy around the edges. Fuzzgod’s adherents are similar. I remember asking a hospital chaplain whether he was theologically liberal or conservative. He replied, “Whichever the patient wants me to be.”

4. Fuzzgod is broadminded—offering many different ways to truth and enlightenment, whereas God the Creator says there is only one way to Him, through the death and sacrifice of His Son, Jesus.

5. Fuzzgod is only “sort of” the creator of all things. When fuzzgod’s devotees are engaged in sinful actions, it’s convenient to focus on the “impersonal” aspects of the idea that we just evolved from animals- less sense of responsibility that way. But when they want meaning or purpose to existence, the idea of fuzzgod as some sort of vague, impotent guiding force to the evolutionary process helps in a fuzzy sort of way.

The “unfuzzy” miracle- working God of the Bible tells us clearly that He did not stand by while millions of years of death and accidents did the creating. That sort of powerful God, who caused billions of dead things to be buried in rock layers because of judgment on a sinful world, is quite uncomfortable for the unconverted.

A Christian commercial on public TV features children telling us that “God made everything.” I suspect it will do little to wake people up to the Gospel because most would respond, “Yeah, I know that God (they mean the fuzzy variety) let everything evolve.” A fuzzy god leads to a fuzzy (or non-existent) Gospel.

All of this underscores why it is so important to make it clear that pro- claiming and defending Genesis creation is about more than just “God making things.” It is about the authority of the Bible, and the power and nature of (the true) God. It is about the reality of the Fall and the origin of sin. Thus the ultimate concern is about the whole message of salvation—only through the blood of Jesus Christ.


The law of God condemns the best of men; the grace of God saves the worst of men.


24 posted on 07/15/2007 8:13:17 PM PDT by PinkDolphin (J'essaierai de faire mieux la prochaine fois.)
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To: PinkDolphin
"Fuzzgod accommodates everyone’s opinions. We’ve all heard people say what they think God would or wouldn’t do, oblivious to the pronouncements of the Bible."

Boy, that's one we can all relate to. I learned long ago to disregard anyone talking about God when they start a sentence with "I think..." rather than "The bible says...."

25 posted on 07/15/2007 8:18:53 PM PDT by joebuck
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To: fgoodwin

Is this related to the “emergent church” in any capacity? I’ve heard the term tossed around lately - not sure what it means exactly.


26 posted on 07/15/2007 8:25:22 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: fgoodwin

There is a pattern emerging. McGreevy, disgraced homosexual former governor of New Jersey, is also seeking ordination in the Episcopal Church. Nice to know the denomination is embracing diversity so strongly!


27 posted on 07/15/2007 8:56:55 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: fgoodwin; ahadams2; blue-duncan; brothers4thID; sionnsar; Alice in Wonderland; BusterBear; ...
Thanks to fgoodwin for the ping.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting Traditional Anglican ping, continued in memory of its founder Arlin Adams.

FReepmail Huber or sionnsar if you want on or off this moderately high-volume ping list (sometimes 3-9 pings/day).
This list is pinged by Huber and sionnsar.

Resource for Traditional Anglicans: http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com
Humor: The Anglican Blue

Speak the truth in love. Eph 4:15

[If Mr. Boyer has truly repented and changed his ways, he has picked a particularly challenging way in which to do it. The analogy that comes to mind is of someone trying to quick smoking by hanging out in a pool hall. --Huber]

28 posted on 07/15/2007 9:26:12 PM PDT by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: fgoodwin

Yet another sign of The Episcopal Church’s continued moral and spiritual bankruptcy.


29 posted on 07/16/2007 6:10:31 AM PDT by rabscuttle385 (Sic Semper Tyrannis * U.Va. Engineering '09 * Friends Don't Let Friends Vote Democrat * Fred in 2008)
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To: theDentist

I’m not judging the guy’s relationship to God and Jesus — that’s between them.

But as an orthodox member of the Episcopal Church, I have to wonder why he didn’t find his “calling” as a Southern Baptist, for example?

The answer is obvious: “anything goes” is the new mantra of the ECUSA, and so he probably felt this was the place to be. After all, “The Episcopal Church welcomes you!”

The Baptists would have said “no thanks”.


30 posted on 07/16/2007 6:12:07 AM PDT by fgoodwin (Fundamentalist, right-wing nut and proud father of a Star Scout!)
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To: fgoodwin

Porn star who is "tired" of working but not so sure there's anything wrong with it? No problem!

31 posted on 07/16/2007 7:18:00 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: fgoodwin
Of course, this is happening in the Episcopal Church -- I wonder this guy couldn't have chosen the Unitarian or United Church of Christ?

Because even the Unitarians and the UCC have standards? ;-p

32 posted on 07/16/2007 7:21:40 AM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: fgoodwin

There was a day when I would say to myself, “Wow! That’s an incredible conversion! Satan must be furious!” Now, I check and see if the guy has gone Episcopalian first; the Episcopalian priesthood has become a refuge for crackpots to bring an aura of respectability (at least in the eyes of the media worshippers) to their wickedness:

>> The contradiction between giving up pornography and feeling its attraction was still apparent in June, four months after retiring. “I love sex,” he said. “I love performing. I love the combination of the two. I could go back and do it again, but I don’t think I would. I had a passion for that. I put it there. Now I’ve channeled my passion to a different place.” <<

This guy isn’t a convert. He’s a pornographer whose career is probably about over.


33 posted on 07/16/2007 7:33:25 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Alex Murphy; Dr. Eckleburg; Larry Lucido
most of his professional life has been better known as a star of pornographic films, Rod Fontana.

George: "I'm Buck Naked."

34 posted on 07/16/2007 7:35:22 AM PDT by Gamecock (FR Member Gamecock: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: escapefromboston

to 34


35 posted on 07/16/2007 7:37:27 AM PDT by Gamecock (FR Member Gamecock: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: theDentist

>> And his choice of Episcopalian to devote himself to God and mankind is bad because...?? <<

He hasn’t repented; he’s just helping to make over the Episcopalian church into a porn-friendly place. Read his own comments in the article.


36 posted on 07/16/2007 7:37:29 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

That’s the way I read it.


37 posted on 07/16/2007 7:38:45 AM PDT by Gamecock (FR Member Gamecock: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent)
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To: sausageseller

It would be totally wrong of me to make fun of your screen name, sausageseller, on a thread about pornography, so I’m absolutely, positively NOT going to do it.


38 posted on 07/16/2007 7:39:25 AM PDT by dangus
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To: FormerLib

Because, frankly, no-one gives a crap about the Unitarians and the UCC, so there’s no purpose in perverting them. The Episcopal Church, on the other hand, owns the National Cathedral, and more presidents and influential historical Americans were Epsicopalians than even free masons. Despite its dwindling numbers, it’s sorta the “flagship” Protestant denomination of historical America.


39 posted on 07/16/2007 7:42:00 AM PDT by dangus
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To: madprof98; theDentist; Wheee The People; keat; sausageseller; Salvation; Delta 21; ...
The original (and lengthier) article is posted on the NYTimes website:

Man of the Flesh to Man of the Cloth

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/15/fashion/15fontana.html

40 posted on 07/16/2007 9:32:05 AM PDT by fgoodwin (Fundamentalist, right-wing nut and proud father of a Star Scout!)
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To: dangus
Sort like Jimmy Carter fornicating in his mind?
41 posted on 07/16/2007 9:52:55 AM PDT by sausageseller (Look out for the jackbooted spelling police. There! Everywhere!(revised cause the "man" accosted me!)
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To: dangus
Sort like Jimmy Carter fornicating in his mind?
42 posted on 07/16/2007 9:53:01 AM PDT by sausageseller (Look out for the jackbooted spelling police. There! Everywhere!(revised cause the "man" accosted me!)
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To: Delta 21; PAR35; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; Larry Lucido
All men are sinners. Unless and until God gives them eyes to see and ears to hear and a new heart with which to believe in Jesus Christ, they will remain clueless.

I hope this guy succeeds in becoming a faithful servant of Christ. He'll have to renounce the sins of his past first, however.

And he needs to read his Bible more carefully. There are many prohibitions against homosexuality. If everything Jesus did not say is permissible, then we can all run red lights and keep slaves.

43 posted on 07/16/2007 10:08:17 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Wheee The People

Absolutely. The last shall be first and first shall be last. Here is hoping for his redemption and salvation. That is all that really matters.


44 posted on 07/16/2007 10:13:27 AM PDT by Little Ray (Rudy Guiliani: If his wives can't trust him, why should we?)
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To: Salvation
Under no circumstances can (homosexual acts) be approved.

As a confirmed Episcopalian viewing TEC's antics of late through a jaundiced eye, I see the Catholic Church as starting to look pretty good. If I were in the New Hampshire Diocese, I would've left a long time ago. Fortunately, my Diocese is mostly conservative, so until I come to church and find a new priest that will not adhere to Scripture, I'll stick around and see what happens.

45 posted on 07/16/2007 10:21:01 AM PDT by Marauder (ˇViva! Sir Salman)
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To: Marauder
If you're looking to escape a lax attitude on homosexuality, I don't think you'll find peace in the RCC...

L.A. Archdiocese to Pay $600M to sex crime Victims

(The actual payout figure is above $660 million. It's been estimated over 50% of every dollar put into the offering plates in the RCC goes to defray the legal costs of this organization.)

46 posted on 07/16/2007 10:40:21 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: fgoodwin

“”Jesus could have commented. He didn’t.””

His Apostles, whom He left in authority, most definitely did.

No surprise this guy went to the Episcopalians. I’m just surprised he didn’t become Unitarian.


47 posted on 07/16/2007 10:46:49 AM PDT by DesScorp
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Some of the good seed falls upon stony ground. We will have to wait and see which ‘soil’ this guy is. But don’t be surprised if the growth withers ... Jesus was speaking (in Mark) of only 25% bearing fruit to the Kingdom.


48 posted on 07/16/2007 10:50:20 AM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: Marauder
Speaking as an ex-Episcopalian . . . we would love to welcome you across the Tiber.

We were in a similar situation -- we had a relatively orthodox parish that was untouched by controversy -- until our rector retired and we could not find an orthodox replacement. (The revisionists have controlled the seminaries for years now, and they will not admit an orthodox candidate or ordain one that managed to slip through.) When our new rector came out in support of GC 2003, that was our signal to depart.

The only thing you might consider is that your parish's portion to the bishop and to the national church is now being used to litigate against orthodox parishes and rectors AND laymen and sue them out of existence. If your parish is contributing to the church at large, can you justify that? Then, of course, there's the issue of being 'yoked to an unbeliever' -- which we ourselves ignored until our faces were rubbed in it. But we should have left sooner - we bailed in September 2003 but the handwriting had been on the wall for awhile. I know it's not easy to pull up stakes and depart, I was a sixth generation Anglican (if you don't count an intervening Methodist who happened into the line).

I was pleased and surprised to find how little doctrinal difference there actually was to deal with, and how orthodox my new parish is. Of course, we were so "High Church" that our noses bled, but the only points of doctrine that we needed to revisit were the validity of Anglican Orders and the supremacy of the Pope (had no problem with either -- all these Episcopal shenanigans certainly challenge the idea that the denomination is part of the Church that Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against, and the Good Lord knows we need Adult Leadership.)

That said, if you're in California, I would look first and make sure you can find an orthodox Catholic parish. The Vatican has apparently decided that the heretical Cardinal there is too entrenched and his retirement age too close to unceremoniously boot him (as they have booted others who were involved in the late scandals).

The "spirit of Vatican II" (not the actual documents) allowed some ordinaries to run wild, and they were not reined in by the Vatican as they should have been -- largely because of fears of anti-Catholic sentiment in the U.S. This has made a horrible mess in some places, because the heterodoxy seemed to go hand in hand with homosexual misconduct.

But I think you'll find that the misconduct was confined to a relatively few areas (not that that makes it any better for the sufferers) and, more importantly, that virtually all the cases are now far in the past, the perpetrators defrocked, in prison, or dead, and their enablers under discipline. Dioceses are now required to make regular reports regarding any complaints, and you will find that information on the diocesan website.

49 posted on 07/16/2007 3:32:01 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

IMO there’s a difference: I don’t believe the RCC is trying to make these transgressions happen, and if the TEC thinks it won’t as a direct result of their shenanigans, I think they’re well-meaning and misguided at best, evil and malevolent at worst; they’re wrong in any case.


50 posted on 07/16/2007 5:31:25 PM PDT by Marauder (ˇViva! Sir Salman)
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