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Why Doesn't the Pope Do Something about "Bad" Bishops?
Catholic.com ^ | July 2007 | Fr. Robert Johansen

Posted on 07/20/2007 8:00:42 AM PDT by NYer

A question I have heard frequently among conservative Catholics is "Why doesn’t the pope do something about those bad bishops?" The question usually is prompted by frustration with a perceived lack of orthodoxy or zeal on the part of some bishop. Catholics in some places face situations in which it seems the bishop turns a blind eye to heterodoxy and dissent—or even appears to give them his blessing. Faced with such dysfunctional diocesan environments, they naturally look to Rome for relief and redress, but often are disappointed to find that help is slow in coming, if it ever comes at all.

By "do something" people usually mean that they want the pope to discipline the bishop, to apply pressure on him to adhere more closely to Church teaching, or even to remove him. But most of us—while from time to time sharing such wishes or even voicing them—don’t know exactly what can be done about a bad bishop. So I’ll address a couple of common misconceptions about the bishop’s role and his relationship to the universal church, and I’ll explain how the Church sees these things, both in its teaching and tradition.

Misconception #1:
The Pope as CEO
Most of us have a boss. Many of us work in large companies where our boss also has a boss, and so on, up the ladder to the president or CEO. If you mess up at work, you’ll be called to account for it, and if you make too many mistakes, you risk being fired. Your boss is in the same position with regard to his superior, etc. So it’s rather natural for us as Americans to assume the hierarchy of the Church functions in a similar way. But having a hierarchy of organization is where the similarity between the Church and the corporation begins and ends.

One reason the Church is different from a corporation is the sacrament of holy orders. When a man is ordained, he is changed in his very being; he is "configured" to Christ as head and shepherd. This new identity is permanent and cannot be removed. Even if a priest is removed from the priesthood ("defrocked"), he remains a priest, sacramentally speaking, so a priest or bishop can’t be fired in the sense that a corporate employee can.

A department head or vice-president of a corporation has authority by delegation: his authority is given from the next higher level of the organization and ultimately comes from the president, CEO, or board of directors. The department head has authority only insofar as it is "borrowed" from above; it does not belong to him.

But this is not the case regarding the Church. The bishop enjoys the fullness of the sacrament of holy orders (cf. Lumen Gentium 26) and as such is head of the local Church, the diocese. A bishop’s authority within his diocese does not operate by delegation: The bishop is not merely exercising a power "borrowed" from the pope. Canon 381 of the Code of Canon Law states: "In the diocese entrusted to his care, the diocesan bishop has all the ordinary, proper, and immediate power required for the exercise of his pastoral office." The Second Vatican Council’s Dogmatic Constitution on the Church explains:

The pastoral charge . . . is entrusted to [the bishops] fully; nor are they to be regarded as vicars of the Roman pontiff, for they exercise the power that they possess in their own right and are called in the truest sense of the term prelates of the people whom they govern (LG 27).
A bishop, then, should not be thought of as a middle-level executive, carrying out the instructions of his Vatican superiors. Each bishop governs his diocese in and by virtue of his own authority. The policies and directives of each diocese are not set in Rome, to be executed by local officials. Bishops are not employees of the pope, and they do not have to get approval from higher authority for the vast majority of their decisions. While each bishop is accountable to the Holy Father and the whole college of bishops, the terms of that accountability are actually quite narrow.

Misconception #2:
The Bishop as Manager
A corollary of seeing the pope as a CEO who delegates his authority to his department heads, the bishops, is to see each diocesan bishop as a manager—someone responsible for meeting goals and deadlines, keeping the organization "on message," and delivering the product. In the corporate world, a manager who fails to do these things will be fired and replaced. By analogy, Americans are tempted to think that a bishop who fails in his responsibilities needs to be fired as well.

But the Church sees the bishop as the father of his diocese. In the Second Vatican Council’s document on bishops, Christus Dominus, the Church, "the Lord’s flock," is compared to a "family of which the bishop is the father" (CD 28). Elsewhere, the bishop’s office is defined as "father and pastor" (CD 16). This identification of the bishop as father goes back to the earliest Church Fathers, such as St. Ignatius of Antioch (c. A.D. 115), who, in his Letter to the Trallians, described the bishop as "the image of God the Father."

This identification of the bishop’s office as fatherly in turn derives from the witness of the apostles themselves. The apostles referred to themselves as "fathers" of the faithful and to their flocks as their spiritual children. For example, Paul writes to the Church in Corinth, "I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:15).

The spiritual fatherhood of the bishop has profound theological and ecclesiological implications. Once again, the early Fathers bear witness to the centrality of the episcopate. Ignatius of Antioch writes:

As therefore the Lord, although united to him, did nothing without the Father, neither by himself nor yet by his apostles, so neither should you do anything without your bishop and presbyters (Letter to the Magnesians, 7).
Ignatius even links our unity in the Eucharist to our unity with the bishop:
Wherefore let it be your endeavor to all partake of the same holy Eucharist. For there is but one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, one cup in the unity of his blood, and one altar. As also there is one bishop, together with his presbytery and the deacons my fellow-servants, so that whatever you do, you may do it according to the will of God (Letter to the Philadelphians, 4).
It is quite clear from Ignatius that the bishop is the center of unity for the local Church. Without the bishop exercising his fatherly office as successor of the apostles, nothing happens in the Church. The strongest expression of this principle might be found in Ignatius’s Letter to the Smyrneans:
Wherever the bishop will appear, there let the congregation also be; as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans, 8).
This centrality of the bishop is reiterated constantly throughout our Tradition—through the Fathers, the Council of Trent, Vatican II, and up to the present.

Can You Make a Case for Amputation?
There is a temptation to view the expressions of the truths of our faith as metaphors or figures of speech. But this is a capital mistake. For example, when we hear the statement that "the Church is the body of Christ," we may be tempted to ultra-spiritualize it and turn it into a nice saying rather than recognize it as a profound revelation of our status as members who have been incorporated (literally em-bodied) into Christ and living in him. Likewise, when we say that the Church is a family, we mean it quite literally. The Church is not a reflection of the reality that is "family"—quite the opposite. The family is a reflection of the reality that is the Church. We must always bear in mind that spiritual realities are more real, not less real, than physical or natural realities. In Christ we are more truly connected, more truly in communion with people than we are with our own family members.

So if in Christ the Church is truly a family, then the bishop is truly a father to his flock. Now think about fatherhood for a moment: Is a father’s identity dependent on how well he fulfills it? Not really. A father is a father, almost regardless of how well he fulfills his responsibilities. We might say that John is a better father than Sam, but we don’t say that Sam is therefore not a father. There are some very good fathers; there are the majority of fathers who muddle along doing the best they can; and, unfortunately, there are a few bad fathers out there.

Now, in the natural sphere, a father has to be very bad indeed before he is relieved of his office. Mere incompetence is insufficient. While we may look at him as a sad case, most reasonable people wouldn’t say that the father who lets the house get run down or who doesn’t effectively discipline his children should be removed from his family. No, in order to justify separating a father from his family, we require substantial evidence of actual abuse or neglect. The father of a family is so integral to its identity that before removing him we have to be sure he is actually causing harm to the family. That determination is made in a court of law, with evidence and witnesses, and the father has an opportunity to defend himself. To paraphrase C. S. Lewis, removing the father from his family is not so much like firing a bad manager as it is like amputating a limb from one’s body: It’s justifiable only under the direst circumstances.

So it is in the family of the Church. The citations above from Ignatius of Antioch show that the father of the Church family, the bishop, is integral to its identity and functioning. And so the Church contemplates removing a bishop only when circumstances are grave—mere incompetence is insufficient. The bishop must be shown to be actually harming the faithful in his diocese—and the Church demands a very high threshold of evidence to make such a judgment.

Canon law stipulates that only the pope can appoint or depose (remove) a bishop (CIC 377, 401–402). Given the nature of the sacrament of holy orders and the spiritual identity of the bishop as father to the people of his diocese, one might expect that papal intervention in the affairs of local dioceses would be rare. A perusal of Church history bears this out. While some Catholics may desire to see the pope "clean house" and remove a number of inadequate bishops en masse, you’d be hard pressed to find historical precedent for that kind of sweeping measure. Popes throughout history have removed bishops here and there, one or two at time. But those who imagine a pope setting episcopal heads to roll simply are misunderstanding how the papacy and the Church work.

Obligation to Charity; Necessity of Evidence
When it comes to dealing with an erring bishop, a pope is far more likely to employ methods such as persuasion, fraternal correction, and gentle chiding than he is to wield the club of discipline—much less the atomic bomb of removal. There are at least three reasons for this. The first is charity: If a bishop is saying or doing bad or dumb things, we are all—especially the pope—obliged to assume in charity that he is well-intentioned and is acting either out of ignorance or confusion, barring evidence to the contrary (supposition, conjecture, and probability do not count as evidence). The experience of the church bears out the wisdom of this approach, as does my own experience as a pastor: In my experience, most Catholics who embrace positions at odds with Church teaching are well-intentioned—they want to follow Christ. But they are either uninformed, misinformed, or malformed (in their conscience or intellect). All three of those conditions can be remedied with great patience and love.

John Paul dedicated a good amount of his energy to correcting the errors to which many Catholics, including bishops and priests, had succumbed. His approach was to teach, explain, and correct. This approach does not yield a quick fix, but there is evidence that his work has already begun to bear fruit: in the throngs of young Catholics who fervently embrace the Church’s teaching, in the rise of dynamic orthodoxy, in the founding and growth of authentically Catholic colleges, and in the signs of a resurgence of vocations in dioceses and religious communities that make no compromises on Catholic teachings.

The second reason that a pope will be reluctant to attempt to discipline a bishop is that of evidence. As I pointed out above, the Church always has viewed removing a bishop as drastic surgery, fraught with danger in and of itself. So there needs to be very strong evidence that the damage done by removing a bishop will be less than the damage caused by his remaining. The problem is that this sort of evidence is not easy to come by. If we think about the kinds of things Catholics frequently complain about regarding episcopal inadequacy, they’re usually "sins of omission"—rarely does the bishop openly advocate dissent or preach rank heresy. Usually the complaint is that the bishop isn’t reining in the heterodox elements in the diocese: He allows that dissenting theologian to speak in his diocese; he isn’t doing anything about Fr. Warmandfuzzy’s liturgical abuses. The problem with this kind of episcopal inaction is that it usually falls under the heading of prudential judgment. A bishop could quite sincerely judge it imprudent to intervene in a situation. He may be wrong, objectively speaking, but he may have plausible reasons for his decisions. And if that’s the case, it doesn’t meet the threshold of evidence necessary to remove him. Now, it’s also possible that a bishop inwardly is applauding and encouraging the dissenters or Fr. Warmandfuzzy, but short of an open admission from him or the ability to climb inside his head and heart, how are you (or the pope) supposed to determine that?

The Danger of Schism
The third reason popes are reluctant to depose bishops is the danger of schism. Whenever a bishop is removed, there is at least the possibility that he may elect to leave the Church altogether and set up on his own church, taking many of the faithful with him. Going back to our Lord’s prayer that "they all be one" (John 17:20–21), the Church regards schism as great evil and precipitating or fomenting schism as a grievous sin. Ignatius, in his Letter to the Smyrneans, wrote "Shun divisions as the beginning of evils." As long as people are kept within the Church, even tenuously, there is the possibility of correction and conversion. But if they depart, they may be lost for good.

And the larger the dissenting element, the more prevalent the heterodoxy, the more grave the danger. Msgr. George Kelly, in his book The Crisis of Authority, argued that, because dissent had become so widespread, the danger of schism was very real in the United States in the 1970s and ‘80s. Any papal "crackdown" against dissent, he argued, likely would have led to the separation of a large body of the faithful from communion with Rome. And so John Paul II seems to have adopted a "gradualist" approach: He largely avoided direct confrontation, save in the realm of ideas. He taught, corrected, and exhorted his brother bishops, and all of the faithful, to holiness and to the embrace of the fullness of the faith.

The gradualist approach may turn out to have been a mistake, but I don’t think so. The majority of episcopal appointments under John Paul II have been very good, even outstanding. Bishops of unquestioned orthodoxy, such as Raymond Burke of St. Louis and Charles Chaput of Denver, are now to be found in many of the major U.S. sees. And in a host of smaller sees one can find many excellent young bishops who are zealous and courageous exponents of the faith.

These bishops, along with the many renewal movements, are beginning to reorient the Church toward a more authentic expression of the Catholic faith. Dissent and heterodoxy are being recognized as the dead ends that they are; their proponents are aging, and they are not attracting new adherents. In time, they will likely wither. While the struggle is by no means over, I think we can say that the tide is beginning to turn: As the dissenters fade away and diminish in influence, they are being replaced by younger, wholeheartedly Catholic bishops, priests, and laypeople who will set the direction for the next generation. In this respect, a wise saying commends itself: Many times, the solution to the Church’s problems is found in the funeral rite.


TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: bishops; catholic

Fr. Robert Johansen is pastor of St. Stanislaus Catholic Church in the diocese of Kalamazoo, Michigan. He was ordained in August 2001 after priestly formation at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit, Michigan. He studied classical and patristic Greek and Latin at the Catholic University of America. He has been involved in pro-life work since college and was closely involved with the efforts to save Terri Schiavo. His articles have appeared in Crisis, Catholic World Report, and National Review Online.

1 posted on 07/20/2007 8:00:45 AM PDT by NYer
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To: Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...
Catholic Ping
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


2 posted on 07/20/2007 8:01:21 AM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer

Prayer for the Bishop

Heavenly Father,
in these trying times
when the spirit of the age
threatens Christian values,
give our bishop holiness of life
and wisdom to direct and guide our (arch)diocesan
family so that we may grow in your love.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.

Amen.


3 posted on 07/20/2007 8:05:04 AM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: NYer

Prayers for all the bishops.

And prayers for the intention of the Holy Father. I’m sure these bishops are in his prayers.

I know several are being replaced soon.


4 posted on 07/20/2007 8:20:12 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer

Does the Bishop of Rome have the authority under Canon Law to “depose” the Bishop of another Diocese?


5 posted on 07/20/2007 8:27:05 AM PDT by ConsistentLibertarian
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To: NYer

Father celebrating the demise of another horrendous bishop! Although given the number, I doubt that it would be possible to celebrate EACH ONE without serious damage to one's health.

6 posted on 07/20/2007 8:29:06 AM PDT by TaxachusettsMan
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To: Salvation

“I know several are being replaced soon.”

Do you know if Georg has found anyone competent to look over his papers before he gives them?


7 posted on 07/20/2007 8:29:23 AM PDT by ConsistentLibertarian
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To: TaxachusettsMan

Looking at the picture, I’d say he’s done enough to damage his health already.


8 posted on 07/20/2007 8:30:18 AM PDT by ConsistentLibertarian
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To: NYer

Thanks for posting this important article. It’s a question I have asked myself. I’m convinced by the argument.


9 posted on 07/20/2007 8:35:16 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: NYer

Ping for a later read!


10 posted on 07/20/2007 8:37:43 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: NYer

Our bishop is on the wrong side of the illegal alien issue.

Any suggestions?


11 posted on 07/20/2007 8:38:39 AM PDT by dsc (There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. Edmund Burke)
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To: dsc
Our bishop is on the wrong side of the illegal alien issue. Any suggestions?

Yes ... pray for him!

12 posted on 07/20/2007 9:03:24 AM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: Aquinasfan; NYer; Frank Sheed

” It’s a question I have asked myself. I’m convinced by the argument.”

Did you ever ask yourself whether the Bishop of Rome has any authority, under canon law, to depose another Bishop?

‘Cause

(1) His entire argument depends on that point. Everything else he says is irrelevant unless he can make good on it.

(2) In support he cites only “CIC 377, 401–402”.

(3) They don’t say what he claims they do.

Yet he managed to convince you anyways.

How very interesting.


13 posted on 07/20/2007 9:07:43 AM PDT by ConsistentLibertarian
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To: NYer

Excellent article, NYer. I would guess that Fr. Johansen must be a wonderful and beloved pastor.


14 posted on 07/20/2007 9:27:22 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: NYer
As a Catholic, I am embarrassed by this article.
This part particularly rankled me:

Canon law stipulates that only the pope can appoint or depose (remove) a bishop (CIC 377, 401–402). Given the nature of the sacrament of holy orders and the spiritual identity of the bishop as father to the people of his diocese, one might expect that papal intervention in the affairs of local dioceses would be rare. A perusal of Church history bears this out. While some Catholics may desire to see the pope "clean house" and remove a number of inadequate bishops en masse, you’d be hard pressed to find historical precedent for that kind of sweeping measure.

What a lame excuse! It's never been done before so it shouldn't ever be done.
Better, I suppose, to fleece the flock of a billion and a half$ to maintain a formerly unremarkable, but now fatally self-destroying tradition!

15 posted on 07/20/2007 9:43:22 AM PDT by Publius6961 (MSM: Israelis are killed by rockets; Lebanese are killed by Israelis.)
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To: Publius6961; trisham

“It’s never been done before so it shouldn’t ever be done[?]”

You’re quite right. The Good Father Johansen couldn’t make a decent a decent argument if his life depended on it.

But it’s much, much worse than you feared. If you track down his reference to “CIC 377, 401–402” you’ll find he can’t read either.

Heh. The Pope can’t write. Must be something in the water.


16 posted on 07/20/2007 10:00:28 AM PDT by ConsistentLibertarian
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To: trisham
Excellent article, NYer. I would guess that Fr. Johansen must be a wonderful and beloved pastor.

When the Terri Schiavo debaucle was raging, Fr. Johanssen got special permission to drive from Michigan down to Florida to be with the Schiavo family. He ministered to them and Terri on several occasions, at great personal expense. God bless him and his ministry!

17 posted on 07/20/2007 10:16:50 AM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: TaxachusettsMan

One a day for a year should take care of the US and Canada.


18 posted on 07/20/2007 10:17:32 AM PDT by steve8714 ("A man needs a maid", my ass.)
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To: NYer
When the Terri Schiavo debaucle was raging, Fr. Johanssen got special permission to drive from Michigan down to Florida to be with the Schiavo family. He ministered to them and Terri on several occasions, at great personal expense. God bless him and his ministry!

******************

Yes. He must have been a great comfort to them.

19 posted on 07/20/2007 10:26:23 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: TaxachusettsMan

Cigar and a glass of wine! What a great way to end the day (Or start it). My kind of priest :)


20 posted on 07/20/2007 11:05:22 AM PDT by bethelgrad (for God, country, the Marine Corps, and now the Navy Chaplain Corps OOH RAH!)
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To: Publius6961
What a lame excuse! It's never been done before so it shouldn't ever be done.

Actually, there's a lot of sense in that.

It's not like the Church sprang up 10 years ago or half a century ago or in 1521. It's been in business for 2,000 years and it's pretty much seen it all during that time. It's seen some extraordinary occurrences and lived through some great difficulties. That's a rich store of history and precedent to fall back on. Church history can tell us an awful lot about the way to approach problems.

21 posted on 07/20/2007 11:21:23 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: ConsistentLibertarian
The Pope can’t write.

To what exactly are you referring? Do you mean the 1983 Code of Canon Law? John Paul II?

22 posted on 07/20/2007 12:13:23 PM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: NYer

“The gradualist approach may turn out to have been a mistake, but I don’t think so.”

The problem with the gradualist approach is that the longer you allow bad Bishops with their bad teaching (or lack of any teaching) to inflict themselves on a diocese the less the laity even know that something is wrong in their diocese. Is this guy saying that the areas with craptastic Bishops are just unlucky, and ultimately there is nothing the Church can do for years and years until the bad Bishop kicks it or retires?

Freegards


23 posted on 07/20/2007 12:53:58 PM PDT by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed says Keep the Faith!)
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To: marshmallow; Publius6961; NYer
It's not like the Church sprang up 10 years ago or half a century ago or in 1521.

Exactly!

There are sooo many people I would love to have this article shown to. Excellent post 'Nyer'. Written at an easy enough level for most malformed Catholics to understand.

I remember all the complaints under Pope John Paul II's papacy concerning why he never "fired" such and such bishops, etc - as if he were the CEO of Catholic Church Inc. (many of them right here on FR). I get quite nervous when I hear people start freely bad mouthing bishops particularly coming from second, third, fourth hand info. Our job as laity is prayer (unless we don't trust in the power of God).

It is easy to understand how heresies and schisms can begin and grow with that mentality.

"Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch - again, an excellent quote 'NYer'. If I had a dime for everytime I've met people so much smarter and able than the Pope or any number of bishops, why, I should've elected them on the spot ( and then retired)!

24 posted on 07/20/2007 1:59:34 PM PDT by TotusTuus
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To: Ransomed
I think that Vatican I makes the popes power to appoint or remove Bishops quite clear. The power to remove or appoint bishops to manage the church is an integral part of Church government, and here is what Vatican I says about the authority of the pope to govern the church:

9. So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.

25 posted on 07/20/2007 2:03:11 PM PDT by old republic
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To: TotusTuus

Schism is definitely the primary concern in why the Bishops aren’t removed from their position. The last thing that the Vatican wants is a bunch of renegade bishops running around illicitly, but validly ordaining new bishops who have sworn no oath of obedience to the pope. However, it might be quite appropriate to remove the red hat from some of the cardinals who are out of line.


26 posted on 07/20/2007 2:09:00 PM PDT by old republic
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To: NYer; All

So to get to the gist of it, a bishop is secure in a position of almost absolute power. And you know the expression, ‘power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.’


27 posted on 07/20/2007 3:42:03 PM PDT by baa39 (Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us. Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.)
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To: TotusTuus; NYer

I’ve noticed that tag-line many times and believe it’s actually a commonly repeate oversimplification of the longer and more accurate quote, which is as follows (you can see the meaning is slightly different):

“Wherever the bishop appears let the congregation be present;
just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”


28 posted on 07/20/2007 3:48:48 PM PDT by baa39 (Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us. Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.)
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To: old republic

So do you think this article gives the wrong impression concerning what the Holy Father could do with bad Bishops?

Freegards


29 posted on 07/20/2007 4:05:53 PM PDT by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed says Keep the Faith!)
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To: baa39
So to get to the gist of it, a bishop is secure in a position of almost absolute power. And you know the expression, ‘power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.’

Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church ... and, after 2000 years, the Church is still vital and thriving, despite bad priests, bishops, cardinals and even some bad popes.

Your statement fails when it comes to the good bishops and we all know who they are. It's all relative.

30 posted on 07/20/2007 5:25:20 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: Aquinasfan
It’s a question I have asked myself. I’m convinced by the argument.

Indeed, Fr. Johansen provides a detailed, in depth explanation of the workings of the hierarchy. This follows what someone posted on another thread the other day regarding "Ut Unum Sint" and the Eastern Churches. Consider that in those Churches, there is yet another layer of authority - that of the Patriarch. I am most blessed in that our Maronite bishop is young, humble and very devout. He also insists that his clergy wear their clericals at all times.

31 posted on 07/20/2007 5:30:27 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: dsc

“Our bishop is on the wrong side of the illegal alien issue.

Any suggestions?”

Yes. Send him a letter reminding him to stay out of political issues and pay more attention to his own responsibilities.


32 posted on 07/20/2007 7:31:09 PM PDT by rogator
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock
One reason the Church is different from a corporation is the sacrament of holy orders. When a man is ordained, he is changed in his very being; he is "configured" to Christ as head and shepherd. This new identity is permanent and cannot be removed. Even if a priest is removed from the priesthood ("defrocked"), he remains a priest, sacramentally speaking, so a priest or bishop can’t be fired in the sense that a corporate employee can.

Quote from the article I thought you'd be interested in.

33 posted on 07/20/2007 7:56:51 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: Ransomed
So do you think this article gives the wrong impression concerning what the Holy Father could do with bad Bishops?

My impression is that in principle the power to remove bishops from their jurisdiction or diocese is within the authority of the Roman Pontiff to govern the entire church in accordance to the dogmatic constitution Pastor Aeternus. However, this article's point about the possibility of schism is a very real and serious one. In the real world forcefully removing a bishop could precipitate a schism in the church creating renegade bishops as I mentioned in a previous post. The last thing the Vatican wants are bishops running around ordaining valid bishops illicitly who swear no oath of obedience to the pope. In order to prevent this sort of confusion and chaos from ripping the church apart, the pope does not exercise the authority to remove a bishop from his jurisdiction except under the most extraordinary circumstances. In other words, the pope has the power to remove bishops, but using this power could lead to a greater disaster than allowing such a bishop to remain in place. Since the pope's primary concern is for the unity of the church and salvation of souls, he would avoid this at all costs, even if it means enduring some peculiar behavior from various bishops.

34 posted on 07/20/2007 10:12:14 PM PDT by old republic
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To: xzins; All

I don’t think informed Catholics expect a bishop to be ‘fired’ in that sense, some of this article is quite obvious and simplistic, maybe for non-Catholics it helps clarify some things.

The issue is that priest or bishop who is in a role that’s not suitable for him (eg parish work) can be removed from it and he still remains a priest. He may even find greater fulfillment of his calling practicing in a field much different, that should be discerned with his superiors. (In Mahony’s case, for example, were he to be immediately removed from his current role, I think he might make a very good errand boy for the Holy Father’s secretary’s secretary).

It’s interesting that even though the author carefully explains these reasons for not removing a bishop, he still has his own “fantasy” (which is good for a few chuckles):

http://thrownback.blogspot.com/2007/07/even-priests-have-fantasies-so.html


35 posted on 07/21/2007 2:30:54 PM PDT by baa39 (Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us. Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.)
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To: NYer
Even if a priest is removed from the priesthood ("defrocked"), he remains a priest, sacramentally speaking, so a priest or bishop can’t be fired in the sense that a corporate employee can.

Not entirely accurate. Working from memory on Canon Law the only sacrament a Priest who has been dismissed can lawfully administer is absolution in the case of a person on the verge of death and only if another Priest is unavailable.

36 posted on 07/21/2007 7:19:29 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: ELS

“To what exactly are you referring?”

I’m referring to a paper which started out as a puff piece along the lines of “Three Stages of the De-Hellenification of Christian Theology” and ended up a muddled mess trying to do too many things at once and all of them badly.

It’s a paper that’s widely quoted ;-)


37 posted on 07/21/2007 9:09:12 PM PDT by ConsistentLibertarian
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To: NYer

For all of the hysterical rhetoric about “why doesn’t the Pope ddoooooo something”, he was successful in removing Cardinal Law in Boston. Of his own, it would have taken dynamite to get Law to leave the Archdiosese of Boston. He felt he was next in line for the Papacy up until the time the scandals started being made public. Law was finally sent to Rome and placed in basically a do nothing position, which effectively removes him from consideration as Pope (which was obvious when Ratzinger was elected Pope). Just because John Paul II didn’t “do something” in a dramatic and public way, doesn’t mean nothing was done. And I’m sure Pope Benedict is working in that same quiet fashion.


38 posted on 04/24/2008 8:22:45 AM PDT by Jackson57
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To: NYer

Cardinal Mahoney must be removed.


39 posted on 04/24/2008 8:24:49 AM PDT by purpleraine
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To: purpleraine
Cardinal Mahoney must be removed.

While I might very well like to see that happen ... that decision is above my paygrade.

So instead, I'll pray for him ... May God grant that he become greater in holiness than I, provided that I become as holy as I should be.

40 posted on 04/24/2008 8:33:51 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
It was the final straw that caused me to leave the church. I can believe in Christ's teaching without seeing people who support molesters promoted to cardinal and continuing to be held in high esteem and without supporting it monetarily and spiritually.

Suffer the little children, indeed!

41 posted on 04/24/2008 8:48:51 AM PDT by purpleraine
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To: NYer

The position of the pope vis-a-vis bishops is something like that of the President and Congress vis-a-vis federal judges. They can appoint and Congress can remove, but in practice the control that they have over federal judges is extremely limited. A handful of federal judges have been removed from office in the more than 200 years of the existence of the federal judiciuary. Today the pope authority in the Church is probably greater than ever before in history, but his greatest power is the power to persuade.


42 posted on 04/24/2008 10:45:33 AM PDT by RobbyS (Ecce homo)
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To: NYer

Good article, although the analogy can be shaky. The Church moves bishops around... my own retired, and was replaced. That goes against the ‘continuity’ expressed in this article. However, I firmly believe that the Pope is the true pastoral father / bishop on earth. I look to him as much, if not more, to my own bishop. And I am still in a wait-and-see mode with my bishop.... he seems fine.


43 posted on 04/28/2008 5:23:24 PM PDT by Patriotic1 (Dic mihi solum facta, domina - Just the facts, ma'am)
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To: purpleraine

Roger that!!!!!


44 posted on 07/27/2008 4:25:29 PM PDT by CdMGuy
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To: CdMGuy

Roger? LOL!


45 posted on 07/27/2008 10:59:54 PM PDT by purpleraine
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To: All

Ping for later


46 posted on 09/03/2009 3:05:15 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (One man, alone! Betrayed by the country he loves, now its last hope in their final hour of need!)
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