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Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)
Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins

Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years?

Wednesday, 11 July 2007

Yesterday's Reuters headline: "The Vatican on Tuesday said Christian denominations outside the Roman Catholic Church were not full churches of Jesus Christ." The actual proclamation, posted on the official Vatican Web site, says that Protestant Churches are really "ecclesial communities" rather than Churches, because they lack apostolic succession, and therefore they "have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery." Furthermore, not even the Eastern Orthodox Churches are real Churches, even though they were explicitly referred to as such in the Vatican document Unitatis Redintegratio (Decree on Ecumenism). The new document explains that they were only called Churches because "the Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term." This new clarification, issued officially by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, but in fact strongly supported by Pope Benedict XVI, manages to insult both Protestants and the Orthodox, and it may set ecumenism back a hundred years.

The new document, officially entitled "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church," claims that the positions it takes do not reverse the intent of various Vatican II documents, especially Unitatis Redintegratio, but merely clarify them. In support of this contention, it cites other documents, all issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: Mysterium Ecclesiae (1973), Communionis notio (1992), and Dominus Iesus (2000). The last two of these documents were issued while the current pope, as Cardinal Ratzinger, was prefect of the Congregation. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was born in 1542 with the name Sacred Congregation of the Universal Inquisition, and for centuries it has operated as an extremely conservative force with the Roman Catholic Church, opposing innovation and modernizing tendencies, suppressing dissent, and sometimes, in its first few centuries, persecuting those who believed differently. More recently, the congregation has engaged in the suppression of some of Catholicism's most innovative and committed thinkers, such as Yves Congar, Hans Küng, Charles Curran, Matthew Fox, and Jon Sobrino and other liberation theologians. In light of the history of the Congregation of the Faith, such conservative statements as those released this week are hardly surprising, though they are quite unwelcome.

It is natural for members of various Christian Churches to believe that the institutions to which they belong are the best representatives of Christ's body on earth--otherwise, why wouldn't they join a different Church? It is disingenuous, however, for the leader of a Church that has committed itself "irrevocably" (to use Pope John Paul II's word in Ut Unum Sint [That They May Be One] 3, emphasis original) to ecumenism to claim to be interested in unity while at the same time declaring that all other Christians belong to Churches that are in some way deficient. How different was the attitude of Benedict's predecessors, who wrote, "In subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the [Roman] Catholic Church--for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame" (Unitatis Redintegratio 3). In Benedict's view, at various times in history groups of Christians wandered from the original, pure Roman Catholic Church, and any notion of Christian unity today is predicated on the idea of those groups abandoning their errors and returning to the Roman Catholic fold. The pope's problem seems to be that he is a theologian rather than a historian. Otherwise he could not possibly make such outrageous statements and think that they were compatible with the spirit of ecumenism that his immediate predecessors promoted.

One of the pope's most strident arguments against the validity of other Churches is that they can't trace their bishops' lineages back to the original apostles, as the bishops in the Roman Catholic Church can. There are three problems with this idea.

First, many Protestants deny the importance of apostolic succession as a guarantor of legitimacy. They would argue that faithfulness to the Bible and/or the teachings of Christ is a better measure of authentic Christian faith than the ability to trace one's spiritual ancestry through an ecclesiastical bureaucracy. A peripheral knowledge of the lives of some of the medieval and early modern popes (e.g., Stephen VI, Sergius III, Innocent VIII, Alexander VI) is enough to call the insistence on apostolic succession into serious question. Moreover, the Avignon Papacy and the divided lines of papal claimants in subsequent decades calls into serious question the legitimacy of the whole approach. Perhaps the strongest argument against the necessity of apostolic succession comes from the Apostle Paul, who was an acknowledged apostle despite not having been ordained by one of Jesus' original twelve disciples. In fact, Paul makes much of the fact that his authority came directly from Jesus Christ rather than from one of the apostles (Gal 1:11-12). Apostolic succession was a useful tool for combating incipient heresy and establishing the antiquity of the churches in particular locales, but merely stating that apostolic succession is a necessary prerequisite for being a true church does not make it so.

The second problem with the new document's insistence upon apostolic succession is the fact that at least three other Christian communions have apostolic succession claims that are as valid as that of the Roman Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox Churches, which split from the Roman Catholic Church in 1054, can trace their lineages back to the same apostles that the Roman Catholic Church can, a fact acknowledged by Unitatis Redintegratio 14. The Oriental Orthodox Churches, such as the Coptic and Ethiopic Orthodox Churches, split from the Roman Catholic Church several centuries earlier, but they too can trace their episcopal lineages back to the same apostles claimed by the Roman Catholic Church as its founders. Finally, the Anglican Church, which broke away from the Roman Catholic Church during the reign of King Henry VIII, can likewise trace the lineage of every bishop back through the first archbishop of Canterbury, Augustine. In addition to these three collections of Christian Churches, the Old Catholics and some Methodists also see value in the idea of apostolic succession, and they can trace their episcopal lineages just as far back as Catholic bishops can.

The third problem with the idea of apostolic succession is that the earliest bishops in certain places are simply unknown, and the lists produced in the third and fourth centuries that purported to identify every bishop back to the founding of the church in a particular area were often historically unreliable. Who was the founding bishop of Byzantium? Who brought the gospel to Alexandria? To Edessa? To Antioch? There are lists that give names (e.g., http://www.friesian.com/popes.htm), such as the Apostles Mark (Alexandria), Andrew (Byzantium), and Thaddeus (Armenia), but the association of the apostles with the founding of these churches is legendary, not historical. The most obvious breakdown of historicity in the realm of apostolic succession involves none other than the see occupied by the pope, the bishop of Rome. It is certain that Peter did make his way to Rome before the time of Nero, where he perished, apparently in the Neronian persecution following the Great Fire of Rome, but it is equally certain that the church in Rome predates Peter, as it also predates Paul's arrival there (Paul also apparently died during the Neronian persecution). The Roman Catholic Church may legitimately claim a close association with both Peter and Paul, but it may not legitimately claim that either was the founder of the church there. The fact of the matter is that the gospel reached Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, Edessa, and other early centers of Christianity in the hands of unknown, faithful Christians, not apostles, and the legitimacy of the churches established there did not suffer in the least because of it.

All the talk in the new document about apostolic succession is merely a smokescreen, however, for the main point that the Congregation of the Faith and the pope wanted to drive home: recognition of the absolute primacy of the pope. After playing with the words "subsists in" (Lumen Gentium [Dogmatic Constitution on the Church] 8) and "church" (Unitatis Redintegratio 14) in an effort to make them mean something other than what they originally meant, the document gets down to the nitty-gritty. "Since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches." From an ecumenical standpoint, this position is a non-starter. Communion with Rome and acknowledging the authority of the pope as bishop of Rome is a far different matter from recognizing the pope as the "visible head" of the entire church, without peer. The pope is an intelligent man, and he knows that discussions with other Churches will make no progress on the basis of this prerequisite, so the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the pope, despite his protestations, has no interest in pursuing ecumenism. Trying to persuade other Christians to become Roman Catholics, which is evidently the pope's approach to other Churches, is not ecumenism, it's proselytism.

Fortunately, this document does not represent the viewpoint of all Catholics, either laypeople or scholars. Many ordinary Catholics would scoff at the idea that other denominations were not legitimate Churches, which just happen to have different ideas about certain topics and different ways of expressing a common Christianity. Similarly, many Catholic scholars are doing impressive work in areas such as theology, history, biblical study, and ethics, work that interacts with ideas produced by non-Catholic scholars. In the classroom and in publications, Catholics and non-Catholics learn from each other, challenge one another, and, perhaps most importantly, respect one another.

How does one define the Church? Christians have many different understandings of the term, and Catholics are divided among themselves, as are non-Catholics. The ecumenical movement is engaged in addressing this issue in thoughtful, meaningful, and respectful ways. Will the narrow-minded view expressed in "Responses" be the death-knell of the ecumenical movement? Hardly. Unity among Christians is too important an idea to be set aside. Will the document set back ecumenical efforts? Perhaps, but Christians committed to Christian unity--Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant alike--will get beyond it. The ecumenical movement is alive and well, and no intemperate pronouncement from the Congregation of the Faith, or the current pope, can restrain it for long. Even if ecumenism, at least as it involves the Roman Catholic Church's connection with other Churches, is temporarily set back a hundred years, that distance can be closed either by changes of heart or changes of leadership.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: apostolic; catholic; fascinatedwcatholics; givemerome; obsessionwithrome; papistsrule; pope; protestant; solascriptura
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1 posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:42 PM PDT by xzins
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To: Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; jude24; Frumanchu; Corin Stormhands; Alamo-Girl

See challenges to claims of Apostolic succession.

Legitimate arguments.

Since spiritual lineage is more important, than secular lineage, the Apostolic argument is important in the spiritual sense. We want to be in the teaching, doctrinal lineage of the Apostles.

That is truly Apostolic.


2 posted on 07/22/2007 7:43:33 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins

Why does everyone get so worked up about ecumenism? There are real, legitimate reasons not to be in union with certain denominations.

What the current pope is saying is just a reiteration of the view they have always held. That is why discussing anything with the officials of the RCC as far as ecumenism goes, is worthless. Laypeople are a different matter.


3 posted on 07/22/2007 7:45:43 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man
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To: Secret Agent Man

The eccumenical arguments of this article are certainly part of the article, but the good part is the discussion of apostolicity.

I can see why there’d be disappointment in the RCC holding forth in discussion as if they were saying one thing when actually they had their fingers crossed behind their backs.

Yet, the good part is that the RCC’s claims stand on pretty shaky grounds. As the good book says, “If you think you stand, take heed lest you fall.”


4 posted on 07/22/2007 7:52:52 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins

“Yet, the good part is that the RCC’s claims stand on pretty shaky grounds”

Ridiculous. It is a fact that the Roman Catholic Church can actually trace it’s leadership (i.e. the priests and bishops) back to the apostles. Or were you referring to something else?

Regarding ecumenism - it’s a good thing to have dialogue, but it is not a good thing to ignore facts. One ought to seek the truth, not just what seems the easiest form of religion.

On the other hand, the Pope did not say that other Christian denominations were without merit. And, contrary to many erroneous people’s beliefs, the Catholic Church does not think all Protestants are going to hell, or that all Catholics are bound for heaven. The Pope restated the Catholic belief that many graces come from various congregations. Yet, the church’s stance has always been that the RCC has the fullness of the faith as handed down from the apostles. Since the church has no army to hit people over the head or coerce anyone into joining it, no one should feel threatened by this statement.


5 posted on 07/22/2007 8:06:29 PM PDT by Gumdrop
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To: Gumdrop

Who ordained the Apostle Paul?


6 posted on 07/22/2007 8:08:51 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins; adiaireton8; kawaii; Kolokotronis; Claud; Petrosius
You keep on harping on this issue, X, because truth hurts.  The Pope's document is no different than Dominus Iesu from the year 2000. It says that Orthodox Churches are real churches but "lack" the fullness of being in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

We Orthodox agree, and state that the Western Church lacks the fullness of being in communion with the Eastern Patriarchs. Either way, the Church lacks unity. But that's not the same as saying that the Church in the west or in the east is not a real Church.

Our clergy is valid, our sacraments are valid, and apostolic succession is present, our Eucharist is Real Presence. We do not commune—within the Church—because we have not worked out full understanding of our dogmatic pronouncements. Communion is an expression of theological agreement and not means towards achieving one.

Whether you accept apostolic succession or not it makes no difference. Christ established one Church and it's none of the Protestant/Baptist man-made communities. We know that because we have the names of those who made them and the dates when they were made. Not a single one involves our Lord Jesus Christ, or goes back to 33 AD, except one both Greek and Latin, both catholic in scope and orthodox in faith, and both apostolic in authoirty.

This makes the oldest non-Apostolic "church" about 550 years old, circa 1500 years after the Lord established His. Take your pick.

7 posted on 07/22/2007 8:15:08 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50

Read the 3 underlined points above.


8 posted on 07/22/2007 8:18:14 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins
From the offending document:

It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.

9 posted on 07/22/2007 8:20:35 PM PDT by aposiopetic
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: xzins
Read the 3 underlined points above.

I did. The fact is the Church has been around for 1500 years before Protestants came on stage and established their "churches," citing their personal interpretation of the Bible (which bible?) as correct. Nice try.

If you are going to use historical evidence as a source of doubt than begin with Exodus, and all of Torah for that matter. Don't stop there: there is no original copy of any of the apostolic or Old Testament writings. They are all copies of copies.

11 posted on 07/22/2007 8:23:48 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Suzy Quzy; xzins
xins HATES when you supply facts....he just doesn’t like to deal with such. Don’t waste your time

Truth hurts, and I can understand that. The elements of what constituted the Church for the last 2,000 years is lacking in Protestant/Baptist communities. Unfortunately, for the last 40 or so years of ecumnism they have gotten accustomed to being "included" in this syncretistic falsehood that took over the western world and a sad but obvious "protestantization" of the Catholic Church for some time after the Vatican II.

12 posted on 07/22/2007 8:29:12 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; xzins; adiaireton8; kawaii; Kolokotronis; Claud; Petrosius

13 posted on 07/22/2007 8:47:05 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: xzins

I wonder how many today can claim Apostolic succession based on Peter’s rules.

Act 1:15 ¶ And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Act 1:16 Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

Act 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

Act 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

Act 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.


14 posted on 07/22/2007 8:50:17 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (When someone burns a cross on your lawn the best firehose is an AK-47.)
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To: P-Marlowe

Oops, strike that reference to Jehovah’s witnesses.


15 posted on 07/22/2007 8:57:08 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: xzins; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan
The Spiritual succession is the only one that matters.

The Apostles should have learned that decisively when Cornelius and family received the Holy Spirit before Peter finished talking or baptizing him.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. - Acts 10:44

And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? - Acts 11:15-17

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. - Acts 15:7-9

And again, when Christ selected Paul, personally and in power on the road to Damascus. And the method whereby Paul received the Gospel:

But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. – Galatians 1:11-19


16 posted on 07/22/2007 8:59:06 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: xzins
Finally, the Anglican Church, which broke away from the Roman Catholic Church during the reign of King Henry VIII, can likewise trace the lineage of every bishop back through the first archbishop of Canterbury, Augustine.

Nice try on this one.

Despite the oaths he took at his consecration/ordination to the episcopacy, and despite the claims he made in the introduction to his Ordinal, Thomas Cranmer had no intention of continuing the priesthood or episcopacy as it had been known in England since the time of Augustine. Nor of continuing the Eucharist as it had been received either.

Otherwise, he would simply have translated the Pontificale Romanum and Missale Romanum of the time into English.

In fact, he wanted to change it so radically he devised rites which, while continuing to LOOK like the Catholic Rites, were changed in their essential formulae to make it very clear that the intention was a wholly new (and essentially different) kind of Eucharist, priesthood, and episcopacy.

Leo XIII reviewed all this and gave what is still the Roman Catholic Church's authoritative judgment on the matter in 1896, in the document Apostlicae Curae.

17 posted on 07/22/2007 9:01:50 PM PDT by TaxachusettsMan
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To: xzins

***Who ordained the Apostle Paul?***

Here is an interesting question I often ask people. “How many times was the Apostle Paul shipwrecked? Most say once in Acts. They forget that Paul says he was shipwrecked three times.

2Cr 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

That is three times before he was shipwrecked in Acts. This shows me that Paul was not resting on his laurels between his 3 missionary journeys but had many more journeys not recorded. Who knows how many other churches he founded without us knowing about them.


18 posted on 07/22/2007 9:05:24 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (When someone burns a cross on your lawn the best firehose is an AK-47.)
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To: kosta50
Truth hurts, and I can understand that. The elements of what constituted the Church for the last 2,000 years is lacking in Protestant/Baptist communities. Unfortunately, for the last 40 or so years of ecumnism they have gotten accustomed to being "included" in this syncretistic falsehood that took over the western world and a sad but obvious "protestantization" of the Catholic Church for some time after the Vatican II.

Oh my!

This kind of "warm, welcoming, we care about you and your salvation" post should definitely bring the whole Protestant/Baptist communities flocking back to the Catholic Church quickly.

Is this really how you wish for Catholics to present themselves to Protestants/Baptists?

Could you define for me what you feel will be the result if these Protestant/Baptist communities fail to "return to" the Catholic Church?

19 posted on 07/22/2007 10:02:14 PM PDT by Col Freeper
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To: Alamo-Girl
Hi Alamo-Girl.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jesus spend a fair amount of time and energy trying to get the existing Jewish hierarchy to recognize that they were wrongly focused on their robes, the best seats in the Temple/Synagogue, etc., (what I would call expected human behavior in any human generated hierarchy) and thusly not doing the Lord's work? (my paraphrasing).

I guess I don't understand why the apparent effort of some, to trace lineage back through humans takes precedence over a relationship with Jesus.

Considering that humans are just as fallible now as they were then, is it possible that perhaps the same human mistake the Jewish leadership was making back then was replicated by some under Jesus's New Testament gospel?

For humans, tracking lineage, historical investigations, etc., can be heady stuff, but it doesn't seem to me that this would be what Jesus would wish us to focus on to save our souls and follow his plan for us.

(Using your post as a jump off point to ask these questions.)

20 posted on 07/22/2007 10:19:40 PM PDT by Col Freeper
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To: xzins

Hi xzins. It is my understanding that the three apostolic Churches of Orthodox, Catholic, and Oriental all claim to be the Church that is in the right, but still holds the others to be apostolic but flawed Churches. Am I wrong about this? Also, do any of these three Churches hold the Anglican Church as being apostolic?

Freegards


21 posted on 07/22/2007 10:48:32 PM PDT by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed says Keep the Faith!)
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To: kosta50
There is one thing everyone is forgetting here. There is one true Church of Christ that he established with His death and the gift of the Holy Spirit 2000 years ago and that is the community of Christians. That is what a true church is. It is not a denomination or a religion. The Church is made up of the Christians of the world. These denominations are merely formal structures for Christians to organize. No denomination, orthodox, roman catholic, or protestant group has it perfect. Protestants broke off of the roman catholic church because they forgot the true meaning of “the Church” and instead were more concerned with following their man-made traditions which ended up and still to this day with some, consume them, among many other reasons. Christ warned us against the traditions of men as a way for the devil to lie and lead us astray and wants us to follow him together with our full hearts and to trust in him and to follow His words and sacred scripture. I am a born-again Christian who attends a Presbyterian church and am currently studying at Catholic University of America in Washington DC. I can tell you as such, and as I am sitting in the capital of the roman catholic church in America, this is nothing new. Remember, this document came from a section of the rcc that was established to deal with what they called heresy by doing what they felt was the “christian thing to do,” (since they are the only so called true-christians under the divine wisdom of the vicar of Christ) by rounding up those who disagreed with them and killed them. Do you think that sounds like the divine wisdom of Christ to you? I think not. Those are the kinds of things that can happen when we stop following God and follow our own way. The devil takes those times and decieves us to do his work. To have ecumenism with the rcc is not possible nor in the best interest of the members of the reformed faith. Until the rcc can refute by scripture the ideals of the reformed faith, to have ecumenism with the rcc would only be sacrificing those core principles of Christianity. Our differences are too great and our basis of faith are not the same. As a friend of mine here at school put it, “I am a catholic before I am a Christian.” Enoguh said. Their allegiance is to the pope, their doctrine and traditions rather than to the Word of God and His grace by faith. According to the rcc, since we have no apostolic succession, our ordinations and sacraments are invalid and therefore the members outside of the rcc can not receive salvation. I am glad the pope did this because it serves as a wake up call to progressive and reformer catholics who did not know that the rcc had this stance and who are truly more committed to the Word of God rather than the laws of the pope. Hopefully this will make them recognize the evilness of this doctrine and push for change.

The key is to remember we are brothers and sisters by faith, not by membership of a certain church. Any so called “church” that says its way or the high way to hell, as the rcc does, is the true heretic and ally of the devil whether they intend to be or not. Christ tells us that is we are born of the water and spirit, our names will be written in the book of life and we will have eternal life. Anyone who tells you differently is not speaking the Truth and it is a lie to bring you away from the glorious gift of the Spirit. “Many will come in my name but will not be of me,” Christ said. Remember that. Those who limit the Kingdom of God by putting made up doctrine, tradition or requirements on faith that are not based in scripture and only fit what they want rather than what God wants will be judged and condemned by their own arrogance.

All the historical information we need as true Christians is the Bible. The lineage of popes and bishops is useless and not important to the furthering of the kingdom of God. We were called as Christians to spread the good news. Not to create a power hungry arrogant religion so it gives us what we want rather than what God wants. The rcc’s new statement has served as a blow to Christian reformers inside the rcc who strive to bring it back to Christ. I hope and pray that they are not discouraged and will continue on their work to open the eyes and hearts of the leaders in the rcc to Christ’s love, truth, wisdom and grace. Just remember fellow Christians, pray often, put your love, faith and trust in God, read the Bible and live a good life for the glory of Him. Don’t ever loose sight of that. That is all He expects. Pick up your cross and follow Him!

22 posted on 07/22/2007 11:21:55 PM PDT by PrezUSA222
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To: xzins

bookmark


23 posted on 07/22/2007 11:31:22 PM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: xzins
Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years?

What ecumenism?

Rome has never budging one inch on the Biblical truth of Sola Fide. Until they agree we are saved by faith alone we will never have one thing in common.

24 posted on 07/23/2007 12:27:29 AM PDT by Gamecock (FR Member Gamecock: Declared Anathema By The Council Of Trent and Wounded By The Current Pope)
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To: Suzy Quzy; xzins
xins HATES when you supply facts....he just doesn’t like to deal with such. Don’t waste your time.

He sure is obsessed with Catholics, but people have always been trying to mind our business. Fortunately (as one who has served), the overwhelming majority of Army chaplains are not similar bigots, in case anyone gets the wrong idea when he identifies himself as one.

25 posted on 07/23/2007 12:46:04 AM PDT by Hacksaw (Appalachian by the grace of God! Montani Semper Liberi)
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To: Hacksaw; P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl; blue-duncan; LiteKeeper
similar bigots

Actually, HS, making it personal injures your argument.

You can read through all these threads, and you can find only where I've said that the RCC is a fellow Christian denomination. You can also find where I've disputed different doctrines that they teach.

So far as my military career is concerned, I served my country faithfully for over 20 years. I counseled the living, prayed for the injured, and honored the dead. Many were of no faith group; many were of unusual groups; many were of evangelical groups; many were of historic Protestant groups; many were of other historic Christian groups; and many were Catholic. Not once was I ever accused of proselytism, because not once did I ever engage in it. That is far more than I can say for many on this board.

The need to proselytize is the true test of those who accept others' denominations as truly of the Father.

But, I did stand beside injured Catholics and, because Catholic priests were NOT available, guide them in Catholic prayers printed by their own priests. I did conduct memorial services for their dead. And I did honor and care for their families.

You have no idea what a right shoulder patch really means.

NSDQ

26 posted on 07/23/2007 2:55:40 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: Alamo-Girl; PrezUSA222; Col Freeper; Ruy Dias de Bivar; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan
Spiritual succession

As this article points out, the human lineage so valued by the RCC is quite suspect. Additionally, of course, we are told by Paul in his instruction to Timothy:

3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.

I would think that mythical lineages would also fit the spirit of that instruction.

In any case, Paul clearly supports the spiritual above the human when he affirms again that God's work is BY FAITH.

As always, sister, your posts as spot on.

27 posted on 07/23/2007 3:13:03 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: P-Marlowe

funny then how they chose Lutheran and not Christian.


28 posted on 07/23/2007 4:22:42 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii; P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl

In Germany it’s called Evangelisch and not Lutheran.

The RCC church down the road from my boyhood home had “Franciscan” on its sign out front. Why would that be? The Othodox Church a few miles away, when it was built about the time I graduated from college, had “Greek” on its sign out front. Why would that be?


29 posted on 07/23/2007 4:28:57 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins
i sincenrely doubt you passed a church and 'greek' was all there was on the sign. but you find many protestant churches which have no mention of Christ but huge mentions of the ACTUAL founders of their faiths.


30 posted on 07/23/2007 4:37:27 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii; Alamo-Girl; P-Marlowe

Where is the word Christ in “Greek Orthodox????”

Where is it in “Roman Catholic?” And what was that stuff about “Franciscan” on the sign I mentioned?

So far as that obviously American sign for the Lutheran Church you posted, it means you did not address at all the fact that it’s called “Evangelische” in Germany.

Now....do you think that the church in Corinth to which Paul wrote his letter had a sign out front?

(And did it say “Roman Catholic” on it anyplace?)


31 posted on 07/23/2007 4:47:19 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins

Orthodox means Correct Worship or Correct Glorification (it’s translated from Pravoslav) the secular meaning comes after and inspired by that.

Are you conceding btw that Lutherans in America worship Luther over Christ?


32 posted on 07/23/2007 4:51:37 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: xzins

i don’t think they had a sign bearing the name of their Elder.


33 posted on 07/23/2007 4:52:17 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii
funny then how they chose Lutheran and not Christian.

Funny then how they chose "Roman Catholic" and not Christian.

34 posted on 07/23/2007 5:25:17 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

sounds like a beef with the Latins to me...


35 posted on 07/23/2007 5:25:58 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii

Funny how they chose Greek Orthodox and not Christian.


36 posted on 07/23/2007 5:31:02 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

Orthodox means correct worship or correct glorification or correct prayer. The orthodox were concerned with worshiping God. The lutherans it would follow more concered with worshiping Luther.


37 posted on 07/23/2007 5:33:52 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii; xzins
Are you conceding btw that Lutherans in America worship Luther over Christ?

Are you conceeding that you worship St. Gregory over Christ?

38 posted on 07/23/2007 5:36:18 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

see that whole ‘correct worship’ still in there?

won’t find it on lutheran churches, they’re worried about luther, and about being ‘First’ but not at all worried about putting Christ or wirshipping GOD on their sinage.


39 posted on 07/23/2007 5:37:53 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii; xzins
Orthodox means correct worship or correct glorification or correct prayer. The orthodox were concerned with worshiping God. The lutherans it would follow more concered with worshiping Luther.

I find that the "Orthodox" on this forum are the most arrogant of all Christians.

ar·ro·gant(r-gnt)

adj.
1. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others: an arrogant contempt for the weak. See Synonyms at proud.


40 posted on 07/23/2007 5:40:37 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: kawaii; P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl

Still don’t see the word “Christian” in that Orthodox word....one would think that they’re trying to highlight what is their style and background. I’m sure that not what “Lutheran” communicates to American churchgoers, what with them all being ignorant defectives and all. /sarc.


41 posted on 07/23/2007 5:47:13 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: P-Marlowe

We have the complte true revealed WORD revealed by GOD, and yes that is of great importance, and it’s especially important to defend it from wolves trying to steal away the flock.


42 posted on 07/23/2007 5:47:33 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii

Shouldn’t your tag line simply be “Christianity, proclaiming the truth since AD 33”?

Love the Lord with all your heart and love one another.

How many atheists are following our conversations and laughing at our meanness to one another?

I know who my Savior is. His Good News is all I can teach - that He is the Son of God and one with God, born of a virgin who died without sin and arose on the 3rd day so that any of us who believe in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.


43 posted on 07/23/2007 5:48:29 AM PDT by hocndoc (http://ccgoporg.blogspot.com/)
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To: hocndoc

No, because as of 1054 there’s been more and more groups proclaiming contrary to the revealed Truth.


44 posted on 07/23/2007 5:49:51 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: xzins

I think Lutheran pretty well communicates that Martin Luther, apostate Catholic priest, and law school dropout, received scripture whole and complete sent through time by the apostles and therefore get’s top billiong on all signage.


45 posted on 07/23/2007 5:51:27 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: P-Marlowe; kawaii
Are you conceeding that you worship St. Gregory over Christ?

ROTFLOL! (and gasping for air...:>)

Sometimes, you look at some of the positions taken on this forum and you just cannot help laughing out loud at what is so obvious that gets ignored.

46 posted on 07/23/2007 5:52:22 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: Suzy Quzy; Religion Moderator
Suzy, is it at all possible to have any dialogue between Catholics and Protestants without you making ad hom personal attacks that contribute nothing of actual substance to the conversation?

Please tell me how your comment in any way makes a positive contribution to this conversation.

47 posted on 07/23/2007 5:53:26 AM PDT by Frumanchu (Jerry Falwell: Now a Calvinist in Glory)
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To: kawaii; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; ears_to_hear; Dr. Eckleburg

You’ve lost this argument, K, time to move on.

There aren’t too many folks who think that you go to MacDonald’s to eat the meat of a Scottish family named MacDonalds. They know that they sell beef hamburgers there.

It’s just a plumb silly argument on your part.


48 posted on 07/23/2007 5:57:40 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: kawaii; xzins; Alamo-Girl; P-Marlowe; All

These conversations are breaking my heart. I see love answered by meanness, and the Good News is secondary to the sign out front. I would love to see more posts like Alamo Girl’s with the Gospel and more stories of ministry to fellow believers like xzins. Less personal acrimony, more peace of Christ.

Thankfully, I’m going to work now and won’t be able to follow any more.


49 posted on 07/23/2007 5:59:06 AM PDT by hocndoc (http://ccgoporg.blogspot.com/)
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To: kosta50; xzins; Alex Murphy
This makes the oldest non-Apostolic "church" about 550 years old, circa 1500 years after the Lord established His. Take your pick.

You seem to be glossing over the fact that, at least in the case of the Reformed Protestant churches, they view themselves as the continuation of Christ's church on Earth in the face of the institutional apostasy of the Roman Catholic Church. They recognize the prior 1500 years of church history as extremely relevant and valuable (unlike groups such as the Restorationists who wanted to discard the previous centuries of Christian history and all its lessons learned). OTOH, the Roman Catholic view of the nature of the visible, institutional church is self-referential and self-reinforcing.

When it comes down to it, the claim to apostolic succession is no more valid or meaningful than that of the Pharisees and Sadducees of "We have Abraham as our father!"

50 posted on 07/23/2007 6:02:59 AM PDT by Frumanchu (Jerry Falwell: Now a Calvinist in Glory)
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