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Heresies then and now: ancient Christian heresies practiced in modern times
The Watchman Expositor ^ | 1999 | Jason Barker

Posted on 07/24/2007 2:24:56 PM PDT by MarkBsnr

In 2 Peter 2:1–2, the apostle states, “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”

The apostle accurately observed the spread of heresy in the first–century church, and his warning that false teachers would continue to arise can easily be seen in the growth of cults and pseudo–Christian religions in our time. Interestingly, the heresies that are popular today are simply variations of the same heresies that have arisen throughout the history of the Church. This article will briefly examine some of the most influential of these heresies, will list scriptures that refute the heresy, and will list some of the modern groups that continue to promote the heresies.

Judaizers — 1st Century Judaizers, or the Judaizing movements, is not a condemnation of Judaism or ethnic Jews. Instead, it has historically been the label for those who attempt to make observing the Mosaic Law a requirement for Christianity and salvation. The book of Acts refers to such people as “they of the circumcision” (Acts 10:45; 11:2), and the council at Jerusalem decisively ruled against them (Acts 15:23–29).

Despite this biblical ruling, Judaizing movements continue to grow in our time. These movements require such things as strict observance of the Sabbath on Saturday, mandatory tithing, observance of the Jewish feasts, and other regulations in order for a Christian to earn salvation.

Scriptural Refutation: Romans 3:24–28.

Modern Groups: Seventh-Day Adventists; followers of Herbert W. Armstrong.

Gnosticism — 1st and 2nd Centuries The Gnostics promoted three basic teachings: 1) matter is evil, and thus Jesus only appeared to be a man; 2) because the Bible teaches that God created matter, the God of the Old Testament Jews is an evil deity who is distinct from the New Testament God, Jesus Christ; and 3) ultimate Truth is a mystery that is available only to those who are initiated into the secret teachings and practices of the Gnostic groups.

Gnosticism has become popular in the latter half of the 20th century with the 1945 Egyptian discovery of the Nag Hammadi library, a collection of Gnostic writings. One of the most influential books in modern Gnosticism has been Elaine Pagel’s The Gnostic Gospels, an analysis of the Nag Hammadi documents. Modern Gnosticism is commonly found in syncretistic groups, which teach that Truth can be found by combining the beliefs and practices of numerous religions.

Scriptural Refutation: Genesis 1:4, 10, 18, 21, 25, 27; John 10:30; 2 Timothy 3:16–17; 1 John 1:1.

Modern Groups: Primarily found in the New Age Movement.

Docetism — 1st – 4th Centuries The name is taken from the Greek word dokein = to seem. The docetics believed that the seeming humanity of Christ, particularly his suffering, were imaginary. They taught that the divine God cannot suffer, and thus, since Christ is divine, his suffering was an illusion to teach humans a valuable lesson about the illusion of matter. Docetism was an integral part of Gnosticism. The heresy was a major impetus for the Chalcedonian Definition of 451, which describes that Christ is one person with two natures: human and divine.

The heresy continues among modern groups that deny the reality of suffering.

Scriptural Refutation: John 1:1–3, 14; Philippians 2:6–8.

Modern Groups: Christian Science, Mind Sciences, the New Age Movement.

Origenism — 3rd Century The career of Origen is one of the more unusual in Christian history. He dedicated himself to defending attacks on Christianity from paganism, Judaism, and Christian heresies. His apologetic book, Against Celsus, remains a classic piece of Christian literature.

Despite his defense of orthodoxy, Origen developed several heretical doctrines that were eventually condemned in 553. His most notable deviant teachings involve the preexistence of human souls, the subordination of the Son to the Father, and universalism. Few groups currently adopt all of Origen’s teachings. Nonetheless, groups influenced by Joseph Smith believe in both the preexistence of souls and the essential subordination of the Son to the Father, and many other groups believe in both the preexistence of souls (usually in the form of reincarnation) and universalism.

Scriptural Refutation: Hebrews 9:27; John 10:30; Matthew 7:13–23; 8:11–12.

Modern Groups: Mormons, Liberal Christianity.

Dynamic Monarchianism / Sabellianism — 3rd Century Although the heresy was first taught in 190 by Theodotus of Byzantium, monarchianism was most notably promoted by Sabellius in the third century. Monarchianism denies the Trinity by teaching that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not separate persons. Instead, the monotheistic God (called a monad) progressively revealed Himself as the creator and lawgiver through the “office” of Father, as the redeemer through the office of Son, and as the source of grace through the office of Spirit.

Scriptural Refutation: John 3:16; 17:22–23; 1 John 5:7–14.

Modern Groups: Oneness Pentecostals.

Arianism — 4th Century Perhaps the most significant heresy faced by the Church, Arianism (named after Arius) taught that, as the Son of God, Christ was created by God the Father. Arius thus denied the Trinity by teaching that Jesus is less than fully divine. This heresy became extremely widespread, even being promoted by many bishops. It was condemned at the First Council of Nicaea in 325 (which proclaimed that Christ is fully divine), and at the First Council of Constantinople in 381 (which proclaimed that the Holy Spirit is divine). Arianism remains one of the most common heresies to afflict the Church. Almost all pseudo–Christian groups deny the full deity of Christ.

Scriptural Refutation: John 10:30; 1 John 5:7.

Modern Groups: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, the Unification Church.

Pelagianism — 5th Century Pelagius, a Welsh monk, taught that humanity does not inherit original sin, and that salvation is earned by following the example of Christ. Grace is not necessary; instead, humans overcome the sin they gradually develop by using God’s grace to assist them in perfecting themselves and thus earning salvation.

This heresy, along with Arianism, is endemic to almost all modern pseudo–Christian groups.

Scriptural Refutation: Romans 3:24–26; 5:11–21.

Modern Groups: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, followers of Herbert W. Armstrong.

Nestorianism and Mono-physitism — 5th Century Nestorius, bishop of Constantinople, taught that Mary bore only Jesus’ human nature in her womb, thus implicitly teaching that Christ was not divine while on earth. In an overreaction to Nestorius, the Monophysites taught that Christ was one person with his humanity and divinity fused into a single nature (the Greek roots of the word monophysite are mono = one, and physis = nature), thus implicitly teaching that Christ was neither fully human nor fully divine.

Nestorianism is implicit in those groups who deny the reality of matter. One of the most common forms of the monophysite heresy can be found in the New Age Movement, where many believe that Jesus was a man who developed his “Christ consciousness” and thus fully achieved his divinity.

Scriptural Refutation: Colossians 2:9; Philippians 2:6–8.

Modern Groups: the New Age Movement, Christian Science.

Conclusion Heresy is not new to the Church. The book of Colossians is Paul’s response to the syncretistic heresies present in the 1st century church in Colossae. Colossians 1:15–20, known as the “Christ Hymn,” is one of the best responses to the heresies that attack the deity and work of Christ.

Christians are commanded by God to “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3). One of the most effective ways to contend for the faith is to know the various ways in which the faith is attacked, and to know the biblical response to these attacks.


TOPICS: Catholic; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: christianity; heresies; religion
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Certain topics have touched on the idea of heresies being reintroduced and practiced. This article does a nice job of listing and explaining some of them, and which religion follows them today. This is not intended as an attack on, for instance, the LDS. It is intended to show that the Church, formerly reasonably successful at ridding itself of heresies, is not as able in more modern times. I attribute this to the fragmentation of the Christians away from the Church.

I have seen a number of, usually more liberal, Christians, for instance, wander over to Origen or Pelagius or Nestor, often citing their own personal interpretation of Scripture as justification.

1 posted on 07/24/2007 2:24:58 PM PDT by MarkBsnr
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To: MarkBsnr

A LOT of so-called Christians really just like the Christian label and not the actual dogmas of Christianity. They believe whatever they fell is Christian and if you point out that their belief is actually heresy; a.) they did not know and b.) once they know they still won’t care.


2 posted on 07/24/2007 2:30:33 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Let's make immigration Safe, Legal and Rare.)
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To: MarkBsnr

Gnosticism is also present in many of the liberal mainline denominations.

Thanks for the post.


3 posted on 07/24/2007 2:59:41 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: MarkBsnr

Good post. I think many of the early church patriarchs (Augustine, Polycarp, etc.) would not recognize many of the practices of todays churches including Roman Catholocism. As a side note, there is an interesting article entitled “What is Wordliness” posted by Banner of Truth which explains Paul’s battle with certain gnostics who attempted impose man’s standards of holiness (do not touch, do not taste-Colossions 2) on the first century church. That same tendancy is still alive among certain sects today.


4 posted on 07/24/2007 3:04:09 PM PDT by Augustinian monk
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To: MarkBsnr
Few groups currently adopt all of Origen’s teachings. Nonetheless, groups influenced by Joseph Smith believe in both the preexistence of souls and the essential subordination of the Son to the Father, and many other groups believe in both the preexistence of souls (usually in the form of reincarnation) and universalism.

As a Mormon, I more or less agree with this point.

Arianism — 4th Century Perhaps the most significant heresy faced by the Church, Arianism (named after Arius) taught that, as the Son of God, Christ was created by God the Father. Arius thus denied the Trinity by teaching that Jesus is less than fully divine.

I doubt many Mormons would agree that Jesus is less than fully divine.

Pelagianism — 5th Century Pelagius, a Welsh monk, taught that humanity does not inherit original sin, and that salvation is earned by following the example of Christ. Grace is not necessary; instead, humans overcome the sin they gradually develop by using God’s grace to assist them in perfecting themselves and thus earning salvation.

Mormonism teaches that Jesus Christ atoned for original sin; therefore, original sin is not inherited. That part I can agree with.

However, I would not say that salvation is "earned." It is true that we must follow the example of Jesus Christ; but it is only though God's grace that we may be perfected and receive the gift of eternal life. (Some have said that Mormons are "semi-Pelagians.")

I would give this post 1.75 out of 3 for its discussion of Mormonism. Not bad, considering how often Mormonism is mischaracterized on these threads.

5 posted on 07/24/2007 3:11:20 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Logophile

Very good; I wanted information to be delivered, not attacks.

With regard to the point about Jesus’ divinity, would it be more accurate to represent LDS doctrine as: Jesus was a creation of God; Jesus is the Jehovah of the OT, the man/God of the new and is now fully divine?


6 posted on 07/24/2007 3:24:29 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: MarkBsnr

We had a deacon in our parish in Oklahoma who was a Church History instructor. He like to say, “You can’t keep a good heresy down!”

There have been almost 2,000 years of Christianity, so every misunderstanding has already been around by now.


7 posted on 07/24/2007 3:27:26 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("Go ahead and water the lawn - my give-a-damn's busted.")
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To: Logophile; MarkBsnr

You’re always so reasonable, Logophile! Of course, Catholics believe Mormons are in error, and Mormons believe Catholics are in error, or we’d all believe one or the other. That doesn’t mean we can’t discuss our different beliefs in a pleasant and informative way.


8 posted on 07/24/2007 3:29:59 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("Go ahead and water the lawn - my give-a-damn's busted.")
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To: Logophile
From article: Few groups currently adopt all of Origen’s teachings. Nonetheless, groups influenced by Joseph Smith believe in both the preexistence of souls and the essential subordination of the Son to the Father, and many other groups believe in both the preexistence of souls (usually in the form of reincarnation) and universalism.

Logophile: As a Mormon, I more or less agree with this point.

What is the Mormon definition of subordination of the Son to the Father? Do Mormons believe in reincarnation?

Logophile: Mormonism teaches that Jesus Christ atoned for original sin; therefore, original sin is not inherited. That part I can agree with.

Eastern Orthodox Christianity teaches that original sin is not inherited, but for a different reason than the one you give.

9 posted on 07/24/2007 3:30:21 PM PDT by stripes1776
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To: MarkBsnr
With regard to the point about Jesus’ divinity, would it be more accurate to represent LDS doctrine as:

(1) Jesus was a creation of God;

Mormonism does not teach creation ex nihilo. We believe that the elements and all spirits are eternal, having neither a beginning nor an end. Creation is the act of organizing preexisting elements.

Thus we believe that Jesus is not a creation. He is eternal, without beginning or end.

What is unique about Mormonism is that it teaches that the spirits of all men are also without beginning or end.

(2) Jesus is the Jehovah of the OT,

Mormons would agree.

(3) the man/God of the [New Testament]

Yes.

(4) and is now fully divine?

Absolutely.

10 posted on 07/24/2007 3:49:18 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Tax-chick
You’re always so reasonable, Logophile! Of course, Catholics believe Mormons are in error, and Mormons believe Catholics are in error, or we’d all believe one or the other. That doesn’t mean we can’t discuss our different beliefs in a pleasant and informative way.

Thanks, Tax-chick. I have always found you to be reasonable, informative, and pleasant.

Yes, we can discuss our differences; we should not minimize those. At the same time, we should not exaggerate them either. It is important to recognize the similarities that do exist.

Not long ago, I attended a Roman Catholic mass with my in-laws. The service was obviously very different from an LDS sacrament meeting. Yet as I listened to the priest, I heard him say things that I recognized. The more I listened, the more familiar it sounded.

It has been my experience that when Christians read the Bible together, particularly the Gospels and Acts, we find much we can agree on. The more we delve into history, philosophy, and theology, the less we can agree. There is a lesson there, I think.

11 posted on 07/24/2007 4:07:09 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Logophile
when Christians read the Bible together, particularly the Gospels and Acts, we find much we can agree on. The more we delve into history, philosophy, and theology, the less we can agree. There is a lesson there, I think.

I think you're right, although I'm not sure how I'd word the lesson ... maybe it's "We're all gonna die!" :-).

I like to read the histories of persecuted Christians, because it reminds me that most of what we think is "important" really isn't.

12 posted on 07/24/2007 4:17:38 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("Go ahead and water the lawn - my give-a-damn's busted.")
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To: MarkBsnr

Thanks for the post Mark.

**Modern Groups: Seventh-Day Adventists; followers of Herbert W. Armstrong. **

Glad to know this one.


13 posted on 07/24/2007 4:20:20 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Tax-chick

Good quote!


14 posted on 07/24/2007 4:21:36 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Deacon John Donnelly, St. Benedict’s Church, Broken Arrow, Oklahoma.


15 posted on 07/24/2007 4:22:48 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("Go ahead and water the lawn - my give-a-damn's busted.")
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To: Logophile

** Yet as I listened to the priest, I heard him say things that I recognized. The more I listened, the more familiar it sounded.**

Find out more. Be on one of the Catholic ping lists.


16 posted on 07/24/2007 4:24:14 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: MarkBsnr

bump


17 posted on 07/24/2007 4:25:29 PM PDT by VOA
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To: MarkBsnr
some other FR threads that touch on heresies:

Heresies then and now: ancient Christian heresies practiced in modern times

Know Your Heresies

The Rev. John Piper: an interesting look at "heresy vs. schism"

Pietism as an Ecclesiological Heresy

Heresy

Arian Heresy Still Tempts, Says Cardinal Bertone (Mentions Pelagianism As Well)

Catholic Discussion] Church group stays faithful (to heresy!)

Where heresy and dissent abound [Minnesota]

Gnostic Gospels - the heresy entitled "Gnosticism."

The So-Called ‘Gospel’ of Judas: Unmasking an Ancient Heresy

18 posted on 07/24/2007 4:29:07 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: MarkBsnr

I know it is not a heresy - but Arminianism is rampant in the church. I believe this is an aberration, is really bad theology. Charismatics, Methodists, Salvation Army, Nazarenes, for instance, hold that it is possible to lose “eternal life” through one’s own actions. The big question: what is the definition of “eternal?”


19 posted on 07/24/2007 4:34:32 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: MarkBsnr
Grace is not necessary; instead, humans overcome the sin they gradually develop by using God’s grace to assist them in perfecting themselves and thus earning salvation.

Basic logic tells me that this makes no sense. Which is it?

20 posted on 07/24/2007 6:33:42 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Let's make immigration Safe, Legal and Rare.)
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To: MarkBsnr

What do you call the heresy that claims that since Jesus was supposed to be sinless and perfect, he could not have been born of the human race and, therefore, was a specially created human embryo implanted in Mary’s uterus but not genetically of human lineage from Adam and Eve?


21 posted on 07/24/2007 6:39:03 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: MarkBsnr
It looks like the author forgot to mention the damnable heresy of Calvinism. Must have been a oversight on his part
22 posted on 07/24/2007 6:52:46 PM PDT by bremenboy (Just Because I Am Born Again Doesn't Mean I was Born Again Yesterday)
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To: MarkBsnr
Judaizers — 1st Century Judaizers, or the Judaizing movements, is not a condemnation of Judaism or ethnic Jews. Instead, it has historically been the label for those who attempt to make observing the Mosaic Law a requirement for Christianity and salvation. The book of Acts refers to such people as “they of the circumcision” (Acts 10:45; 11:2), and the council at Jerusalem decisively ruled against them (Acts 15:23–29).
Despite this biblical ruling, Judaizing movements continue to grow in our time. These movements require such things as strict observance of the Sabbath on Saturday, mandatory tithing, observance of the Jewish feasts, and other regulations in order for a Christian to earn salvation.
Scriptural Refutation: Romans 3:24–28.

This is accurate as far as it goes...which isn't very far. Most sabbatarians and those who observe God's other biblical holy days do not observe them to "be saved". Rather, we observe them BECAUSE we are saved and wish to honor and serve the Lord by living in obedience to Him.

The article makes it sound horrible to follow the bible instead of Christian tradition. Christian tradition is the author of Sunday observance and the observance of holidays such as Easter and Christmas. God specifically tells his followers which days he created holy, the 7th day sabbath being but one.

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

23 posted on 07/24/2007 7:07:23 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: MarkBsnr
These movements require such things as strict observance of the Sabbath on Saturday, mandatory tithing, observance of the Jewish feasts, and other regulations in order for a Christian to earn salvation.

These are heresies? LOL.

Of course they're not necessary for salvation, but they are obedience to God's word, which does bring its own blessings.

Especially regarding the Sabbath... if that Commandment can so easily be tossed why should one follow the other nine?

24 posted on 07/24/2007 7:39:13 PM PDT by AnnaZ (I keep 2 magnums in my desk.One's a gun and I keep it loaded.Other's a bottle and it keeps me loaded)
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To: DouglasKC
Evening, FRiend. We meet again.
25 posted on 07/24/2007 7:45:48 PM PDT by AnnaZ (I keep 2 magnums in my desk.One's a gun and I keep it loaded.Other's a bottle and it keeps me loaded)
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To: AnnaZ
Evening, FRiend. We meet again.

We do. :-)

Good morning and thank you for your defense of God's sabbath.

26 posted on 07/25/2007 3:11:31 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
Good morning and thank you for your defense of God's sabbath.

Good morning. And thank you for getting here first.

= )

27 posted on 07/25/2007 6:26:22 AM PDT by AnnaZ (I keep 2 magnums in my desk.One's a gun and I keep it loaded.Other's a bottle and it keeps me loaded)
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To: bremenboy

Whats “damnable” about it?


28 posted on 07/25/2007 6:50:51 AM PDT by Augustinian monk
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To: TradicalRC

You’ll have to ask Pelagius; I certainly am no expert!!!!


29 posted on 07/25/2007 7:15:49 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: aruanan

Didn’t the Raelians pick up and run with this one?


30 posted on 07/25/2007 7:17:50 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: bremenboy

Luther, Calvin and Zwingli. The unholy Trinity.

How many souls have been led astray with their heresies?


31 posted on 07/25/2007 7:23:34 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: MarkBsnr

A better question is, “How many souls have been brought into God’s Kingdom through the reforms of these men?


32 posted on 07/25/2007 7:46:37 AM PDT by Upbeat
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To: DouglasKC

We believe that it is required to observe the entire Bible. There are a few instances where the NT overrides the OT, such as in the dietary laws. And there are instances where the Church has made a ruling, such as in the moving of the weekly holy day from Saturday to Sunday. There is Biblical justification for that move, such as the apostles sitting at table on the first day of the week, or even Jesus rising on the first day of the week.


33 posted on 07/25/2007 7:49:25 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: AnnaZ

Ping to 33.


34 posted on 07/25/2007 7:50:57 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: Upbeat

I believe that answer is extremely small. With the distortions and heresies promoted by these men and others, the message of Christ is extremely garbled and full of static.

I have no idea how many are neutral.

But by promoting heresies and distorting the message of Christ, I would think that many have gone onto the fast track to Hell. The ones believing in the get out of hell free card, for instance.


35 posted on 07/25/2007 7:55:11 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: MarkBsnr
And there are instances where the Church has made a ruling, such as in the moving of the weekly holy day from Saturday to Sunday.

I don't follow church rulings, just God's word.

Apostles may have met on the first day and Jesus may have risen on the first day, but they continued to go to Temple on the seventh.

36 posted on 07/25/2007 8:04:29 AM PDT by AnnaZ (I keep 2 magnums in my desk.One's a gun and I keep it loaded.Other's a bottle and it keeps me loaded)
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To: AnnaZ

Jesus instructed us to follow His Church; He instructed Peter to look after us. I’d say that He instructed us Catholics to follow a new day of Christian worship as opposed to the Jewish Sabbath.


37 posted on 07/25/2007 10:01:27 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: MarkBsnr
I’d say that He instructed us Catholics to follow a new day of Christian worship as opposed to the Jewish Sabbath.

And you Catholics have fun with that.

= )

38 posted on 07/25/2007 10:13:35 AM PDT by AnnaZ (I keep 2 magnums in my desk.One's a gun and I keep it loaded.Other's a bottle and it keeps me loaded)
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To: AnnaZ

We do our best!!!


39 posted on 07/25/2007 10:29:32 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: DouglasKC; AnnaZ
The article makes it sound horrible to follow the bible instead of Christian tradition. Christian tradition is the author of Sunday observance and the observance of holidays such as Easter and Christmas. God specifically tells his followers which days he created holy, the 7th day sabbath being but one.

Thank you for pointing this out.

These movements require such things as strict observance of the Sabbath on Saturday, mandatory tithing, observance of the Jewish feasts, and other regulations in order for a Christian to earn salvation.....Scriptural Refutation: Romans 3:24–28.

It is not done to earn salvation. Rom.3:24-28 are about blood ordinances and they have been done away with, not His law.

Most sabbatarians and those who observe God's other biblical holy days do not observe them to "be saved". Rather, we observe them BECAUSE we are saved and wish to honor and serve the Lord by living in obedience to Him.

Amen. No where is it written those things have been done away with.

40 posted on 07/25/2007 11:03:29 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong
And Amen again.
41 posted on 07/25/2007 11:47:10 AM PDT by AnnaZ (I keep 2 magnums in my desk.One's a gun and I keep it loaded.Other's a bottle and it keeps me loaded)
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To: MarkBsnr
Didn’t the Raelians pick up and run with this one?

I don't know. I saw it in a monthly mailing from Institute for Creation Research. It was written by Henry Morris. I use it as an example of what happens when people try to identify the "sin nature" as being something biologically genetic.
42 posted on 07/25/2007 12:13:41 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: Ping-Pong

It is written.

It is written by the Church Fathers under the authorization of Our Lord Jesus Christ. The Judaizing heresy was one of the first to be dealt with. And here we are almost 2000 years later popping up again.

Time for whack-a-mole.


43 posted on 07/25/2007 12:23:43 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: MarkBsnr; DouglasKC; AnnaZ; Diego1618
It is written by the Church Fathers under the authorization of Our Lord Jesus Christ. The Judaizing heresy was one of the first to be dealt with.

Where is it written by God? If He was the one that made the rules shouldn't He be the one to say they no longer count? I see where all blood ordinances are done away with as Jesus shed His blood for all time but don't the others remain until He asks us to stop?

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled
19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It doesn't sound as if He wants any man to rewrite His laws.

44 posted on 07/25/2007 12:48:50 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: aruanan
That's a heresy I first saw right here on FR.

It's related to Docetism ("Jesus' human nature is an illusion") with elements of Nestorianism ("Mary is the mother of the human Jesus, not the divine Jesus")

45 posted on 07/25/2007 1:15:45 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Ping-Pong

Matt[17-20] This statement of Jesus’ position concerning the Mosaic law is composed of traditional material from Matthew’s sermon documentation (cf Matthew 18; Luke 16:17), and the evangelist’s own editorial touches. To fulfill the law appears at first to mean a literal enforcement of the law in the least detail: until heaven and earth pass away nothing of the law will pass (Matthew 5:18). Yet the “passing away” of heaven and earth is not necessarily the end of the world understood, as in much apocalyptic literature, as the dissolution of the existing universe. The “turning of the ages” comes with the apocalyptic event of Jesus’ death and resurrection, and those to whom this gospel is addressed are living in the new and final age, prophesied by Isaiah as the time of “new heavens and a new earth” (Isaiah 65:17; 66:22). Meanwhile, during Jesus’ ministry when the kingdom is already breaking in, his mission remains within the framework of the law, though with significant anticipation of the age to come, as the following antitheses (Matthew 5:21-48) show.

15 [21-48] Six examples of the conduct demanded of the Christian disciple. Each deals with a commandment of the law, introduced by You have heard that it was said to your ancestors or an equivalent formula, followed by Jesus’ teaching in respect to that commandment, But I say to you; thus their designation as “antitheses.” Three of them accept the Mosaic law but extend or deepen it (Matthew 5:21-22; 27-28; 43-44); three reject it as a standard of conduct for the disciples (Matthew 31-32; 33-37; 38-39).

Therefore, what Jesus has done is to change, extend, or revoke aspects of the Mosaic Law.


46 posted on 07/25/2007 2:20:35 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: Salvation
Find out more. Be on one of the Catholic ping lists.

Thanks. I have been for some time.

47 posted on 07/25/2007 2:38:07 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: MarkBsnr
Thank you for your reply and explanation.

The verses you quoted do not change the Commandments or the Law. The ones in question, as this article states, are the Sabbath, tithing and feast days. What He changed appear to be more about ordinances and some statutes but not the law.

Perhaps I'm wrong but that is what I see contained therein.

48 posted on 07/25/2007 2:49:04 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: MarkBsnr

bump for a later read


49 posted on 07/25/2007 3:37:35 PM PDT by Patriotic1 (Dic mihi solum facta, domina - Just the facts, ma'am)
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To: stripes1776
What is the Mormon definition of subordination of the Son to the Father?

Although I cannot recall a Mormon ever using the word subordination in a sentence—we don't do much systematic theology—I think I understand what you mean.

We believe that the Father and the Son are fully divine, yet the Son is subject to the Father. In the Bible, Jesus consistently states that he was sent to do the will of his Father; that he derived his authority from his Father; and that his Father was the greater of the two. In all that he did, Jesus gave the glory to his Father.

I should add that we are not Trinitarians in the classical sense. Some would call us Tritheists. We believe that not only are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost three persons; we also consider them as three separate Beings.

An analogy that I like to use is this: The Father is the King; the Son is the Prince; the Holy Ghost is the Prime Minister. The King is the Sovereign source of power and authority. He has delegated his authority to the Prince, who is equally royal and who does the will of the King in all things. The Prime Minister—who is also royal—carries out the will of the King and the Prince. (The analogy may not be perfect, but it is close.)

Do Mormons believe in reincarnation?

No. We do believe in resurrection; however, no one gets more than one shot at mortal life.

Eastern Orthodox Christianity teaches that original sin is not inherited, but for a different reason than the one you give.

Interesting. What is the Eastern Orthodox doctrine on original sin?

50 posted on 07/25/2007 3:46:38 PM PDT by Logophile
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