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Praying Against Zion
Front Page Magazine ^ | 7/26/'07 | Mark D. Tooley

Posted on 07/26/2007 6:41:46 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator

The National Council of Churches (NCC) is distressed that not all Christians share its animosity towards Israel.

Preferring not to address its own demographic implosion, the NCC periodically lashes out at more demographically robust Christian movements, especially conservative evangelicals. In its latest fusillade, the NCC denounced the “Christian Zionism” of Christians United for Israel (CUFI), which recently convened its second convention in Washington for pro-Israel evangelicals. Newt Gringrich was among the speakers.

“CUFI's position of uncritical support for Israel separates it from the Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox, and traditional Protestant Churches, all of whom support Israel while at the same time advocate for a Palestinian state,” insisted the NCC’s news release, which mostly quoted Associated General Secretary for International Affairs and Peace Antonios Kireopoulos.

The NCC official asserted that “most Christians” do not share CFI’s stated goals. CFI’s objective, as its website describes, is to increase support for Israel among evangelicals by emphasizing the “the Jewish contribution to Christianity and Israel’s biblical mandate to the land through Bible teachings.”

CFI warns that “with every passing day, the threats to Israel and the Jewish people are growing,” specifically referencing Iran’s nuclear plans and Hamas’ popularity among Palestinians. “Millions of Christians across America have a deep love for Israel and the Jewish people and want to stand with them during these difficult days,” notes the CUFI website, which cites the “threats to Judeo-Christian civilization from radical Islam.”

Speaking unpleasantly about radical jihadists, of course, is unacceptable to the NCC and the Religious Left. "CUFI's ongoing vilification of Islam is also unacceptable," fretted Shanta Premawardhana, an NCC interfaith relations official. "The NCC continues to urge Christians to build relationships with Muslim people, the vast majority of whom are peace-loving, law-abiding people." What the NCC never considers is that refusal to address radical Islamists is no favor to moderate Muslims who are “peace-loving.”

According to the NCC, the CFI has “advocated going to war with Iran,” which is “totally unacceptable,” Premawardhana claimed. "The NCC believes that high-level dialogues with Iran and other Middle Eastern partners is the proper method of dealing with Iran." The NCC believes in high toned denunciations for Christians who disagree with its political agenda. But radical Islamists and other often very savage adversaries of Western Civilization always merit endless respectful dialogue, according to the NCC mindset.

The NCC, like the rest of the Religious Left, prefers to dismiss all pro-Israel evangelicals as “Left-Behind” fanatics whose support for the Jews is merely a crass and self-serving preparation for the end-times. CFI’s “efforts are the latest in a century old apocalyptic movement that began in earnest in the 19th century,” the NCC asserted. “Sometimes called Christian Zionism because of its uncritical support for the State of Israel, it is based on a literal reading of Biblical apocalyptic texts.”

Actually, Zionism and philo-semitism have a long history in Christianity, arguably dating back to the New Testament, whose writers were themselves Jews who followed a Jewish messiah, obviously. But more specifically among Western Protestants, a mystical attachment to the Jewish people and a belief in their connectedness to the land of Israel originated at least with the English Puritans. Zionism of some sort has nearly always resonated among some religionists in America over the last 400 years.

The NCC's founders and early leaders were themselves ardent supporters of Israel. It was not until after the radicalization of the 1960's, and the advent of Liberation Theology, that leftist Protestant prelates suddenly realized that Palestinian insurrectionists were actually God's revolutionary vanguard against Zionist imperialism. Today, the NCC and its allies insist that they support Israel, within its pre-1967 borders. Naturally, these clerics prefer not to acknowledge that those borders are largely indefensible, and that an unrestricted "right of return" for Palestinian descendants would likely erase the Jewish state demographically.

According to Kireopoulos, the CUFI "message differs greatly with what theologians have taught for centuries" about Israel. Apparently, the NCC believes itself a mouthpiece for orthodox theology, instead of the shrinking pulpit for heterodox liberal Protestantism that it actually is. That the restoration of the Jews to Israel may serve some Providential purpose is hardly a belief confined to freakish evangelicals, as the Religous Left, sitting inside its insulated and largely empty churches, prefers to imagine.

"The NCC advocates for a two-state solution, with a secure Israel alongside a viable Palestinian state," declared the NCC news release, sounding so very reasonable. "The NCC has stated the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian Territories is unsupportable. This position is shared by Churches worldwide, and is counter to the position espoused by CUFI."

According to Kireopoulos, "CUFI stands apart from the historic Churches still present in the Holy Land." These churches for Palestinian Christians are "adversely affected by the policies supported by...CUFI." The NCC prelate blamed pro-Israel evangelicals in the U.S. for the plight of Palestinian churches, which are "diminishing and are threatened with extinction."

Of course, the NCC will never mention that Christian populations from throughout the Middle-East are declining, thanks largely to pressures from radical Islam. For the Religious Left, the Islamists themselves are never at fault but are merely the understandable consequence of endless Western oppressions dating to the Crusades. Almost hilariously, Kireopoulos frets about the de-emphasis on Jesus Christ by CUFI's pro-Israel evangelicals.

"The Christian Gospel is clear that salvation came through the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ," Kireopoulos intoned. "To supplement this message is to prevert the Gospel" that CUFI claims to preach. Naturally, the NCC and the Religious Left prefer not to mention inconvenient topics such as the resurrection of Christ in their various outreaches to Muslims. In fact, the Resurrection, which for leftist Protestants is typically just a poetic metaphor for social justice, is not a topic on which the NCC typically focuses.

Just as the NCC is almost never interested in persecuted Christians anywhere, except when the supposed perpetrators are Israel and its American evangelical supporters, so too the NCC will not usually cite the Resurrection, except as a polemic against both Israel's Jews and their Christians friends.


TOPICS: Current Events; Evangelical Christian; Judaism; Theology
KEYWORDS: bibliophobes; christians; christianzionism; cufi; hypocrisy; israel; liberals; middleeast; ncc; proisrael; religiousleft
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According to Kireopoulos, the CUFI "message differs greatly with what theologians have taught for centuries" about Israel.

According to Kireopoulos, "CUFI stands apart from the historic Churches still present in the Holy Land."

"The Christian Gospel is clear that salvation came through the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ," Kireopoulos intoned. "To supplement this message is to prevert the Gospel" that CUFI claims to preach.

Don't you just love when a group of red ecumenists like the NCC defend the historic two thousand year old teachings of chr*stianity on all subjects??? [/sarcasm] So does this mean the NCC is going to start telling Jews to convert or fry in Hell?

Sheesh. Now even these Commies are lecturing Biblical Fundamentalists about how "alienated from historic chr*stianity" they are. Everyone scolds Biblical Fundamentalists for being "alienated from historical chr*stianity," but no one seems to advocate the same "dialogue" and "understanding" towards them that they do towards savages!

How long will Judaeophilic Biblical Fundamentalists delude themselves? Two thousand years of chr*stianity are against them and all the other churches (including the ones that go all the way back to the beginning) hate their guts. When will Biblical Fundamentalists tell chr*stianity to shove it and instead accept the Noachide Laws?

I love pro-Israel Fundamentalist chr*stians dearly, but I can't understand their loyalty to a religion that so clearly hates and despises them.

1 posted on 07/26/2007 6:41:50 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I love pro-Israel Fundamentalist chr*stians dearly, but I can't understand their loyalty to a religion that so clearly hates and despises them.

That's easy. Groups like NCC represent only themselves. They do not get to decide who or what is Christian.

2 posted on 07/26/2007 6:48:43 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Another pronouncement from the National Council of Churches Nobody Goes to Any More.


3 posted on 07/26/2007 7:27:52 PM PDT by kaehurowing
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To: Logophile

Zionist Conspirator is talking about the Fundamentalists as having the irrational loyalty, not the NCC.


4 posted on 07/26/2007 7:58:07 PM PDT by lwdc
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To: lwdc; Zionist Conspirator
Zionist Conspirator is talking about the Fundamentalists as having the irrational loyalty, not the NCC.

I may have misunderstood. I though ZC was saying that Christian Fundamentalists should abandon Christianity because they are opposed by groups such as NCC, who claim to represent Christians.

Perhaps ZC will clarify this.

5 posted on 07/26/2007 8:29:36 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Logophile
I may have misunderstood. I though ZC was saying that Christian Fundamentalists should abandon Christianity because they are opposed by groups such as NCC, who claim to represent Christians.

Perhaps ZC will clarify this.

Unfortunately, it's not just the NCC. Catholics, Orthodox, mainline Protestant, and just about everyone else jumps down Fundamentalists' throats for being "alienated from chr*stianity." And it isn't just liberal chr*stianity that rejects the restoration of the Jews.

Basically, I'm saying Fundamentalists should abandon chr*stianity not just because of the NCC but because that religion in all its traditional, hostorical forms is ultimately so alien to the Biblicism they practice.

Judaeophilic Biblical chr*stian Fundamentalism is a Judaeo-chr*stian syncretism with no roots in the chr*stian past. G-d is guiding such Fundamentalists to the purity of Torah and Noachide observance.

It's time Fundamentalists deprived the chr*stian world of its scapegoat.

6 posted on 07/26/2007 8:46:14 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Nachamu, nachamu `ammi!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

The NCC is just a self-important bag of bored lefties. Ignore them. My employer is, technically, a member of the NCC (can’t disclose until I give my notice, which should be soon). Nothing resembling an “evangelical” Chr*stian denomination wants anything to do with them.

They’re just like the USA - centers of power in PC, urban churches, ignored by the heart and soul of Protestants. I can’t speak for the RCC.


7 posted on 07/26/2007 8:50:48 PM PDT by IslandJeff (Jeremiah 2:14-22)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
but I can't understand their loyalty to a religion that so clearly hates and despises them.

Would you clarify your statement above. Thanks.
8 posted on 07/26/2007 8:54:40 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Zionist Conspirator

We ain’t running from those who only profess to be Christians. We got it right, they don’t. They don’t have a biblical leg to stand on. Pastor John Hagee started the CUFI and his 2nd meeting in DC was larger than the year before. He collects money to send to Migdal Orh and has set up a fund for the Jews who want to return to Israel but cannot afford it. I contribute to both and have no concern for those that don’t stand behind and support Israel because God has it under control - “I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you.”


9 posted on 07/26/2007 9:31:56 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Zionist Conspirator

[When will Biblical Fundamentalists tell chr*stianity to shove it and instead accept the Noachide Laws?]

Incredible. A statement like this made on a site with a good number of Christians and it goes unchallenged? I’d tell you where you can shove your Noachide Laws Zionist Conspirator but there are rules against vulgarity on the religion forum. It may come as a shock to you but Christians worship Jesus Christ, not the Talmud, the Tanakh, or Israel. There is a time coming where many so-called Christians (a good majority in this country) are going to have to choose between Jesus and the Gospels or Israel and Talmudism. You can’t worship God and Beelzebub.


10 posted on 07/26/2007 9:37:16 PM PDT by John Philoponus
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To: John Philoponus; All
[When will Biblical Fundamentalists tell chr*stianity to shove it and instead accept the Noachide Laws?]

Incredible. A statement like this made on a site with a good number of Christians and it goes unchallenged? I’d tell you where you can shove your Noachide Laws Zionist Conspirator but there are rules against vulgarity on the religion forum. It may come as a shock to you but Christians worship Jesus Christ, not the Talmud, the Tanakh, or Israel. There is a time coming where many so-called Christians (a good majority in this country) are going to have to choose between Jesus and the Gospels or Israel and Talmudism. You can’t worship God and Beelzebub.

Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case! This is what traditional chr*stians think of Biblical Fundamentalists! (Moreover this poster has Marcionite leanings, which means he questions whether the G-d of Israel and the "gxd" of chr*stianity are even the same. As a matter of fact, he just implied here that the Jewish G-d is actually Satan, which is about as classically anti-Semitic as one can get!)

I hope and pray that all good Biblical Fundamentalists will make the right choice when the time comes when they have to choose between G-d and J*sus.

11 posted on 07/27/2007 7:29:56 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Nachamu, nachamu `ammi!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
It's time Fundamentalists deprived the chr*stian world of its scapegoat.

An interesting point of view, to say the least.

Perhaps the Fundamentalists you mention refuse to abandon Christianity because they feel much the same way I do. That is, they have a commitment to Jesus Christ that does not depend on what others may say about them.

I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (a.k.a. the "Mormon" Church). We have had our differences with traditional and orthodox Christians; even here on Free Republic, many insist that we are not really Christians. Nevertheless, we consider ourselves Christians because we have a commitment to Jesus Christ. That is not going to change merely because other Christians may disapprove of us.

12 posted on 07/27/2007 7:31:42 AM PDT by Logophile
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To: Logophile
Perhaps the Fundamentalists you mention refuse to abandon Christianity because they feel much the same way I do. That is, they have a commitment to Jesus Christ that does not depend on what others may say about them.

I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (a.k.a. the "Mormon" Church). We have had our differences with traditional and orthodox Christians; even here on Free Republic, many insist that we are not really Christians. Nevertheless, we consider ourselves Christians because we have a commitment to Jesus Christ. That is not going to change merely because other Christians may disapprove of us.

I'm sure you're right, Logophile. All I can say is chr*stianity doesn't deserve such devotion. Believe me, as one who comes from a Fundamentalist background who investigated the ancient churches with respect I was absolutely astounded by the degree of contempt they had for my tradition, despite the fact that in the United States it is the Fundamentalists who do all the work. Do you see Copts or Maronites or Armenians or even Eastern Orthodox standing up for chr*stianity in this country? The only thing they feel safe condemning is Biblical Fundamentalism.

I hadn't really thought about the similarity in the predicaments of Fundamentalists and mormons because of the vast differences in theology. Not to go into a big argument, but the LDS Church is so very theologically unique in so many ways, whereas Fundamentalist Protestants are literally hated by the ancient and mainstream churches for merely accepting the facticity of the bible which it inherited from those churches in the first place! Absolutely incredible!

The gutless ancient and mainstream churches, who can't bring themselves to condemn anything except Biblical Fundamentalism, should be ashamed of themselves, but this requires a certain level of decency, so it will never happen.

13 posted on 07/27/2007 7:38:40 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Nachamu, nachamu `ammi!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Um, that’s what Marcionists think. Or at least one Marcionist.


14 posted on 07/27/2007 7:45:18 AM PDT by maryz
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To: Zionist Conspirator
despite the fact that in the United States it is the Fundamentalists who do all the work.

All the work? Which work?

Do you see Copts or Maronites or Armenians or even Eastern Orthodox standing up for chr*stianity in this country?

What do you mean by "Standing up for Christianity"?

My own take on the Noahchide Laws: As with everything else of the Old Covenant, it has been fulfilled by the New Covenant that is for both Jew and Gentile. The Law is not without worth, as it provides us a rule for life, but we cannot receive Righteousness except by Grace.

15 posted on 07/27/2007 8:37:44 AM PDT by GCC Catholic (Sour grapes make terrible whine.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

[Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case! This is what traditional chr*stians think of Biblical Fundamentalists!]

Sad no? The fact that I think the True God can do better morally and spiritually than how he’s portrayed in the Tanakh and Talmud? But you are correct in one thing though Zionist Conspirator, the time to choose between Beelzbub and his Chronicles (the Talmud, Zohar, and parts of the Tanakh) and the True God and his Gospel is coming. All these so called Christians who are ashamed of Christ will indeed apostate it’s nothing new and has been foretold (2 Thessalonians 2:3). Then they and your Master (who’s hatred of Chirst and his Name is legendary) will get everything that’s coming to them, not by the hands of man but by God’s.


16 posted on 07/27/2007 8:47:52 AM PDT by John Philoponus
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To: Zionist Conspirator
The world would be peaceful and at ease if the Noahide code was actually observed. Killing in the name of a "prophet" no matter what is the name of the "prophet" doesn't fly.

it looks like John Philoponus and possibly others are ready to return to the ancient Xtian tradition of confiscating and burning Talmud volumes.

17 posted on 07/27/2007 9:56:58 AM PDT by APRPEH (Hillary probably wouldn't approve, but I can live with that.... www.imwithfred.com)
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To: APRPEH

[it looks like John Philoponus and possibly others are ready to return to the ancient Xtian tradition of confiscating and burning Talmud volumes.]

Quite the opposite, really. I want the Talmud and other “sacred” Jewish writ translated into as many languages as possible and for it to be as widely distributed as possible. This way when Bible believing Christians use them to point to the gaping differences between Jewish writ and the Gospels, they can’t be accused of antisemitism. I’m not ashamed of Christ or His message. I don’t need an army of apologists or sophists to understand His message.


18 posted on 07/27/2007 10:21:53 AM PDT by John Philoponus
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To: John Philoponus
you want translations or mis-translations? translations abound. go buy and read for yourself or look online. you can read for yourself or listen to someone read for you and translate word for word. understanding it is another matter. attacks on the Talmud have been a traditional anti-Jew tactic for millennium.

today
history

19 posted on 07/27/2007 11:10:04 AM PDT by APRPEH (Hillary probably wouldn't approve, but I can live with that.... www.imwithfred.com)
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To: APRPEH

I’m aware of the fact that there are bogus versions of the Talmud online, see for example Michael L. Rodkinson gutted version available on sacred-texts.com :
http://sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm

Then you have someone who placed nearly the ENTIRE text of the Soncino Talmud online found here :
http://www.come-and-hear.com/talmud/index.html

Just to check for myself, I downloaded a copy of the Soncino Talmud from a p2p site and it matched word for word the Talmud provided by the Come and Hear site. It was by Davka found here :
http://www.davka.com/cgi-bin/product.cgi?product=32

There is no excuse as Christians can see for themselves what they are up against (St. Paul himself said this is a spiritual battle between Christians and the forces of the Enemy).

If you should doubt the Satanic nature of the Talmud, then you shouldn’t take my word for it. There are Humanist Jews who have spoken out against the Talmud’s vile nature :
http://www.daatemet.org.il/index.cfm

That website is available in Hebrew, Russian, and English, so the accusations of mistranslation don’t hold water. I especially like the expose of the Talmud’s contempt for Non-Jews found here :
http://www.daatemet.org.il/articles/article.cfm?article_id=119

They provide meticulous references and you can look them up yourself using the links I provided. They are also willing to debate, if you so choose.

Note : you can use http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp to double check anything quoted by the Come and Hear site and Daat Emet. I wish Christians would use these references.


20 posted on 07/27/2007 11:27:14 AM PDT by John Philoponus
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Okay, your post really confused me. Are you saying that the NCC is a valid representation of Christianity? So many of these groups are neo-pagan who use “Christian” for leverage. They don’t agree with the Bible or the ancient creeds, or any basic definition of Christianity.

I’m not sure what your definitions of “chr*stianity” and “Biblical Fundamentalists” are either. I thought you were saying one thing, but your subsequent posts make it sound like something else. Can you help me understand what you are advocating?


21 posted on 07/27/2007 11:46:32 AM PDT by dan1123 (You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. --Jesus)
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To: John Philoponus; wideawake; All
Sad no? The fact that I think the True God can do better morally and spiritually than how he’s portrayed in the Tanakh and Talmud? But you are correct in one thing though Zionist Conspirator, the time to choose between Beelzbub and his Chronicles (the Talmud, Zohar, and parts of the Tanakh) and the True God and his Gospel is coming. All these so called Christians who are ashamed of Christ will indeed apostate it’s nothing new and has been foretold (2 Thessalonians 2:3). Then they and your Master (who’s hatred of Chirst and his Name is legendary) will get everything that’s coming to them, not by the hands of man but by God’s.

John Philoponus has just identified the G-d of the TaNa"KH (the Bible) with Ba`al-Zevuv, the lord of the flies. He also attributed the authorship of parts of the Bible to this figure.

Unfortunately for Marcionites, the Jewish G-d created the universe and everything and everyone in it. Everyone's entire life is encoded within the Torah, which was actually written by G-d (whom JP identifies with Satan).

It is you, JP, and not I, who are a hater of G-d, and you are the one who will pay for it when you fall into His Hands.

The True G-d of the "Satanic" TaNa"KH (Bible) is the most beautiful, holy, and exalted being in existence, the author of all life, and "the King of the Kings of the Kings," and I will do my utmost to defend Him from blasphemy--whether by atheists, liberals, progressives, or miserable little heretics from a movement chr*stianity rejected centuries ago. "The spirit of everthing that lives will bless You, O L-rd!"

And please be aware that blasphemy is a capital offense.

22 posted on 07/27/2007 12:14:54 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Nachamu, nachamu `ammi!)
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To: APRPEH
it looks like John Philoponus and possibly others are ready to return to the ancient Xtian tradition of confiscating and burning Talmud volumes.

John Philiponus is by his own admission influenced by Marcionism, an ancient chr*stian heresy that says the chr*stian "gxd" and the G-d of the Torah are two are two completely different beings. There is an old anti-Semitic, gnostic, and occultist tradition which identifies HaShem as Satan (chas vechalilah!), and JP seems to lean in that direction also.

23 posted on 07/27/2007 12:18:21 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Nachamu, nachamu `ammi!)
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To: dan1123
Okay, your post really confused me. Are you saying that the NCC is a valid representation of Christianity? So many of these groups are neo-pagan who use “Christian” for leverage. They don’t agree with the Bible or the ancient creeds, or any basic definition of Christianity.

Both the NCC and authentic traditional chr*stianity are anti-Israel and both despise Fundamentalist Protestants no only for their support of Jewish national restoration but also believing the Bible is totally inerrant. Traditional chr*stianity has long since turned against the Bible.

I’m not sure what your definitions of “chr*stianity” and “Biblical Fundamentalists” are either. I thought you were saying one thing, but your subsequent posts make it sound like something else. Can you help me understand what you are advocating?

I'm advocating that Fundamentalist Protestants leave chr*stianity (which they don't understand and which hates them) and instead embrace the true meaning of the TaNa"KH by becoming Noachides.

24 posted on 07/27/2007 12:23:23 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Nachamu, nachamu `ammi!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

[The True G-d of the “Satanic” TaNa”KH (Bible) is the most beautiful, holy, and exalted being in existence, ....and I will do my utmost to defend Him from blasphemy”

And indeed you should defend the True God from blasphemy. It’s blasphemy to attribute to the True God half the things the Talmud and the Tanakh do. You can start by denying the True God could stoop so low as to sanction genocide against His own people : Exodus 32:25-29 (31,000 dead), Numbers 16:1-3, 23-25 (250 dead), Numbers 16:41-49 (14,700 dead), Numbers 25:1-9 (24,000 dead), Judges 20:15-21 (22,000 dead), Judges 20:23-25 (18,000 dead), Judges 20:28, 35-37, 46-48 (25,000 dead), 1 Chronicles 21:2-14 (70,000 dead). This is only against his own people! This says nothing of the total extermination of various Cannanite tribes, or my personal favorite 2 Kings 2:23-25 :

[From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. “Go on up, you baldhead!” they said. “Go on up, you baldhead!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.]

One of your God’s prophets calls down curses on children for taunting him, and your God obliges! Sick and disgusting. And you dare accuse me of blaspheming the True God?


25 posted on 07/27/2007 12:33:03 PM PDT by John Philoponus
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I'm advocating that Fundamentalist Protestants leave chr*stianity (which they don't understand and which hates them) and instead embrace the true meaning of the TaNa"KH by becoming Noachides.

Okay, I have become familiar with the term "TaNaKH" recently as the Jewish term for the books of the Old Testament (although with slight variation in verse and book groupings and order). I also learned recently that Messianic Jews (even more controversial than fundamentalist Christians) call the New Testament B'Rit Hadashah. Do you consider the B'Rit Hadashah valid? But I have not heard the term "Noachide" before. Google gives me links to "7 Noachide laws" which seem like the Ten Commandments minus 4,5,9 and 10.

How is "authentic traditional chr*stianity" "anti-Israel"? Is there anything anti-Israel in Christian writings before 300AD? And if it was added later, how can it be "authentic"?
26 posted on 07/27/2007 1:14:40 PM PDT by dan1123 (You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. --Jesus)
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To: John Philoponus

And you explain Jesus going to temple in Jerusalem how?


27 posted on 07/27/2007 1:52:04 PM PDT by dan1123 (You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. --Jesus)
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To: dan1123

To cleanse it (throwing out the money changers and stopping the animal sacrifices). Have you ever read what went on in that place before Jesus disrupted the services (both right before His crucifixion and then permanently when He foretold of it’s destruction)? The Talmud gives a full description and it’s like something straight from Paganism/Neo-Satanism.


28 posted on 07/27/2007 2:04:55 PM PDT by John Philoponus
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To: John Philoponus
throwing out the money changers and stopping the animal sacrifices).

stopped the animal sacrifices? even according to your writings in acts Paul didn't even do that. upon his arrival in Jerusalem before being arrested you'll remember he shaved his head and took the vow of a nazarite. which includes sacrificing a couple of turtle doves according to Torah. he did claim to be Jewish don't ya know.

29 posted on 07/27/2007 2:16:09 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

Paul is a human being. In his moment of weakness he could have reverted to the old animal sacrifice rituals (they were going on for centuries and were an integral part of Judaism, the NT is full of examples of Apostles attempting to backslide to the barbaric rituals found in the Tanakh and described in the Torah). Old habits die hard. The bloodbath that went on in the Temple was legendary. The heave offerings (with each priest holding a severed part of the animal), the squeezing out of the blood from the offerings heart and spraying it over the alter. I’m sure God was pleased.


30 posted on 07/27/2007 2:27:20 PM PDT by John Philoponus
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To: John Philoponus

That should read “found in the Tanakh and described in the TALMUD”


31 posted on 07/27/2007 2:28:18 PM PDT by John Philoponus
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To: John Philoponus

Actually I was talking about before then. You might want to look at Luke 2:41-47 and Luke 4:16.


32 posted on 07/27/2007 2:37:06 PM PDT by dan1123 (You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. --Jesus)
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To: John Philoponus

You didn’t even make it to the first chapter of Leviticus in your Bible study.


33 posted on 07/27/2007 2:39:40 PM PDT by dan1123 (You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. --Jesus)
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To: John Philoponus

ah ok. The Paul was wrong defense. No prob. I happen to think he was wrong about most things.


34 posted on 07/27/2007 2:42:49 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: dan1123

Luke 2:41, He was 12 years old for God’s sake. For all we know He could have been asking them what use slaughtering animals and spraying their blood all over the alter has (how can an unthinking animal take on the sins of the offender offering up the sacrifice).

Luke 4:16, it just says here that He read a scroll in the synagogue at Nazareth. Unless I’m missing something here?


35 posted on 07/27/2007 2:43:22 PM PDT by John Philoponus
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

Not a problem, I happen to think that a good chunk of the Tanakh and the majority of the Talmud are directly from the mouth of Satan himself. See? We can agree to disagree, that’s the beauty of living in a free country. I’m not forcing my beliefs on you and I don’t hate you for being deceived by the Enemy. The NT itself says there will be a great falling away.


36 posted on 07/27/2007 2:46:13 PM PDT by John Philoponus
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To: John Philoponus
The NT itself says there will be a great falling away.

Whop dee friggin doo.

37 posted on 07/27/2007 2:53:20 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: John Philoponus; wideawake; Admin Moderator; All
I'm through with you. Go play with that other Marcionite "Giant Conservative" (if the two of you aren't the same person).

And what you totally fail to realize is that no human being can determine what is right and what is wrong (this is the essence of all liberalism). Right and wrong are determined by nothing other than arbitrary Divine decree. How dare a mere mortal sit in judgement on G-d! And thank you once againf or demonstrating the the chr*stian "gxd" appeals to liberals and rationalists!

And once again, anyone who claims the Jewish G-d is Satan (G-d forbid!) is a classic anti-Semite and doesn't belong on this forum.

38 posted on 07/27/2007 2:59:40 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Nachamu, nachamu `ammi!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Hi Zionist Conspirator, can you please ignore John and answer my honest questions?


39 posted on 07/27/2007 3:15:15 PM PDT by dan1123 (You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. --Jesus)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

[And once again, anyone who claims the Jewish G-d is Satan (G-d forbid!) is a classic anti-Semite and doesn’t belong on this forum.]

Wow, so you can trash Christianity and Christ himself, and it’s ok. But when I likewise register my disgust with the Tanakh and Talmud, I should be banned? Classic.

I don’t mind that you are through with me. It seems we’ll never agree on anything, and I don’t want this to get personal, seeing as I have nothing against you (I just don’t agree with your religious world view).


40 posted on 07/27/2007 3:15:37 PM PDT by John Philoponus
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To: John Philoponus

John, You have to seriously fast and pray for the truth regarding the Old Testament from God Himself. None other. God the Father revealed Himself to the world through His loving relationship with the Jewish people of Israel, and He will again. Your hatred of the Talmud makes me think you don’t like authority. I have to ask you this. When Jesus returns (He does so only once) and saves Israel and the faithful from the beast, He is very angry and destroys the beast’s followers. He then sets up His government in Jerusalem. What kind of government will He establish? Will it be a turn the other cheek, or an eye for an eye establishment? Do you not know that Jesus obeyed the Old Testament Law perfectly? He fulfilled the law. We are told to love our enemies because we want to be forgiven, but Jesus doesn’t have to love His enemies.


41 posted on 07/27/2007 9:30:39 PM PDT by huldah1776 (Worthy is the Lamb.)
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To: John Philoponus; Zionist Conspirator
Sad no? The fact that I think the True God can do better morally and spiritually than how he’s portrayed in the Tanakh and Talmud? But you are correct in one thing though Zionist Conspirator, the time to choose between Beelzbub and his Chronicles (the Talmud, Zohar, and parts of the Tanakh) and the True God and his Gospel is coming.

What "parts of the Tanakh" are you referring to???

42 posted on 07/29/2007 5:44:53 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
The True G-d of the ...TaNa"KH (Bible) is the most beautiful, holy, and exalted being in existence, the author of all life, and "the King of the Kings of the Kings,"

That's fine but did "True G-d if the TaNaKH" also give you "the Noachide Laws" or "The Talmud"??? don't think so.

Thus aren't you making the same mistake so many who call themselves Christians make by adulterating and diluting the truth of the Scriptures with extraneous writings that do not issue forth from the hand of the True God, the God of Israel???

43 posted on 07/29/2007 5:59:15 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

It’s s*mple, Z*-n*st C-nsp*rat-r.

Fundamentists are Christians, not “chr*stians,” and they don’t want to throw out the Christ with the “chr*stianity.”


44 posted on 07/29/2007 6:23:23 AM PDT by Larry Lucido ( Hunter 2008)
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To: John Philoponus
In his moment of weakness he could have reverted to the old animal sacrifice rituals (they were going on for centuries and were an integral part of Judaism, the NT is full of examples of Apostles attempting to backslide to the barbaric rituals found in the Tanakh and described in the Torah. Old habits die hard. The bloodbath that went on in the Temple was legendary. The heave offerings (with each priest holding a severed part of the animal), the squeezing out of the blood from the offerings heart and spraying it over the alter. I’m sure God was pleased.

Perhaps you need to visit a slaughterhouse some day --- that "barbarism" and "bloodbath" has been going on since the beginning of time and still puts meat on your plate.

Would you suggest that the priests of Temple should have let the animals go and fail in their duty before the God of Israel???

The Crucifixion was likewise bloody. Perhaps you have forgotten that "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin". You'll find that not only Paul's last letter, the one to the Hebrews, but also in the TaNaKH --- Leviticus 17:11. Or is that the part of the TaNaKH that you don't consider to be inspired by the God of Israel???

45 posted on 07/29/2007 6:28:29 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator; John Philoponus
John Philoponus, when you stated that the Hebrew Scriptures (the "TaNaKh") were partially written by Satan, you as good as renounced Jesus Christ.

You are an apostate.

46 posted on 07/29/2007 6:54:56 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: John Philoponus

Richard Dawkins’ latest book ‘The God Delusion’ has an almost identical critique of the Old Testament G-d that you put forward. He basically asserts that the G-d of the OT is ‘the most hateful character in all of Western Literature’ Just amusing that Dawkins’ atheist polemic would match the rhetoric of a devout Christian. Nothing personal just an observation.


47 posted on 07/30/2007 8:17:33 AM PDT by Borges
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To: wideawake

Registering my disgust with the “God” of the Tanakh for answering the prayer of his prophet to slaughter 40 children who were making fun of his bald head is the same as me renouncing my Lord and Saviour who warned against harming children?

If anything, I could turn this around on you and say you are blaspheming the Holy Name of Christ by associating Him with that Beast.


48 posted on 07/30/2007 2:00:14 PM PDT by John Philoponus
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To: John Philoponus
Do you like the English poet William Blake? His vision of Christianity was very close to your own (Jesus was sent to liberate mankind from the Old Testament demiurge...).
49 posted on 07/30/2007 2:06:17 PM PDT by Borges
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To: Borges

Yes very funny. Apparently one of the charges leveled against devout Christians by the ancient Pagans of Rome were that they were atheists. History repeating itself?


50 posted on 07/30/2007 2:09:16 PM PDT by John Philoponus
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