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A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 12: Purgatory
OLRL ^ | Fr. William J. Cogan

Posted on 07/27/2007 3:53:18 PM PDT by NYer

Lesson 12: Purgatory

"And the day following Judas [Machabeus] came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers.  And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews:  So that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain.  Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.  And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought Him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten.  But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.  And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (for if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead), and because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.  It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."  (2 Machabees 12:39-46)

  1. What is Purgatory?
        A place and state of temporary punishment in the next world.  Hell, on the other hand, is a place of eternal or everlasting punishment.

PRACTICAL POINTS

  1. All Souls' Day is the day set aside by the Church for special prayers and Masses for all the souls suffering in Purgatory.  It is celebrated every year on November 2.

  2. The souls in Purgatory cannot help themselves.  We should help them by our prayers and sacrifices.  They, in turn, can and do pray for us.

  3. The souls in Purgatory are known as the Poor Souls.

  4. Litany for the Poor Souls


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: briefcatechism; catholic; purgatory
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1 posted on 07/27/2007 3:53:20 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...
Lesson 12 of 43.

Each Sunday, our pastor offers up the Divine Liturgy for the deceased requested by various parishioners + the souls in Purgatory. When you pray the Rosary, offer up one decade for these souls. They will benefit enormously and be praying for you in your time of need.

2 posted on 07/27/2007 4:00:37 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...
Lesson 12 of 43.

Each Sunday, our pastor offers up the Divine Liturgy for the deceased requested by various parishioners + the souls in Purgatory. When you pray the Rosary, offer up one decade for these souls. They will benefit enormously and be praying for you in your time of need.

3 posted on 07/27/2007 4:01:43 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer

Will you first shed some light on what the “Apocrypha”
is? I ask Catholics all the time what it is and
not a soul is able to tell me. Why is this?


4 posted on 07/27/2007 4:03:06 PM PDT by sirchtruth (No one has the RIGHT not to be offended...)
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To: NYer

I am a Protestant and I find this very interesting. Like the poster above, I’d like to know more about the Apocrapha (sp?).

Why did Protestant denominations get rid of it?


5 posted on 07/27/2007 4:15:45 PM PDT by TheRiverNile
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To: NYer
A place and state of temporary punishment in the next world.

I.e., the blood of Jesus isn't sufficient to forgive sins. You still gotta take some licks for the stuff that's even beyond the reaches of the cross.

6 posted on 07/27/2007 4:19:02 PM PDT by tbpiper
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To: TheRiverNile
Why did Protestant denominations get rid of it?

Probably for crap like 'Purgatory'.

7 posted on 07/27/2007 4:20:22 PM PDT by tbpiper
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To: sirchtruth; TheRiverNile; tbpiper
Apocrypha, also know as Deuterocanonical books. Not only do Catholics think they're legitimate books of the Bible, but so do the Eastern Orthodox.
8 posted on 07/27/2007 4:28:27 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: tbpiper
Probably for crap like 'Purgatory'.

The Orthodox also have the "Apocrypha," and they still retain them, even though they're theology is different from the Catholic Church on the question of purgatory.

9 posted on 07/27/2007 4:29:31 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: tbpiper

Only the perfect go straight to heaven. Therefore hope you will be perfect at the appointed time.


10 posted on 07/27/2007 4:31:54 PM PDT by franky1
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To: sirchtruth; TheRiverNile

This should REALLY help:

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/apocrypha-why-its-part-of-bible.html

Also, you might want to buy: http://www.grottopress.org/


11 posted on 07/27/2007 4:31:59 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: tbpiper

“Probably for crap like ‘Purgatory’”

Is there anything fundamentally wrong with Purgatory? I seem to gather that you don’t like it from your posts. However, if the Apocrypha are inspired books, then Purgatory is an interpretation that could be garnered from the text we just read.


12 posted on 07/27/2007 4:33:15 PM PDT by TheRiverNile
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To: vladimir998

Interesting read, though I did find it difficult to figure out just why Martin Luther contended that the Apocrypha were “sub-sciptural.” I would wonder why he would think such a thing.


13 posted on 07/27/2007 4:41:28 PM PDT by TheRiverNile
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To: tbpiper; Pyro7480
the blood of Jesus isn't sufficient to forgive sins

According to Scripture, Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins. In John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear. The successors of the Apostles are the priests in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

14 posted on 07/27/2007 4:58:02 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: TheRiverNile

From my reading it was for two reasons that Luther degraded the Deuterocanonicals (and several books from the NT too) to less than inspired status:

1) There were debates in the early Church over their canonicity.

2) They contained ideas that he found troubling. Luther was so troubled by the Letter of James that he joked he might burn it.

“Luther placed the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation at the end of his translation and failed to note their page numbers in the index. He wrote a preface to James claiming it “contradicts Paul by teaching justification by works” M243. In the earliest editions Luther wrote his now famous comment: “St. James Epistle is really an epistle of straw compared to [St. Paul’s letters], for it lacks this evangelical character” Deutsche Bibel 6 as quoted in P988” http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/James/Background/Canon.htm#reformation


15 posted on 07/27/2007 5:04:37 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: sirchtruth; TheRiverNile
Will you first shed some light on what the “Apocrypha” is?

The Apocryphya are the Deuterocanonical books which were removed from the King James Bible. Protestant Bibles have only 39 books in the Old Testament, however, while Catholic Bibles have 46. The seven additional books included in Catholic Bibles are Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, and Baruch. Catholic Bibles also include additions to the Books of Esther and Daniel which are not found in Protestant Bibles. These books are called the deuterocanonical books. The Catholic Church considers these books to be inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called “Jamnia” in 90 - 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, those who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

16 posted on 07/27/2007 5:10:58 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer
Very interesting post.

We Mormons have a similar doctrine. We believe that the wicked who die in their sins are sent to hell to suffer the penalty for their rebellion. In the Final Judgment, the inhabitants of hell are brought forth to receive their eternal reward. The majority go on to inherit a kingdom of glory; however, the most hardened—those who willfully sin against the Holy Ghost— remain in hell (sometimes called "Outer Darkness") with Satan and his angels.

Although the Catholics say "Purgatory" and we say "hell," it appears that the two serve similar purposes. The principal difference seems to be the explanation of what happens after the Final Judgment. The catechism mentions one Heaven; we believe that there are three Heavens or degrees of glory. Those who suffer for their sins in hell may go on to the lowest degree, but are not allowed to live with God the Father and Jesus Christ in the highest.

17 posted on 07/27/2007 5:16:38 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: TheRiverNile; tbpiper
if the Apocrypha are inspired books, then Purgatory is an interpretation that could be garnered from the text we just read.

Of course, and it makes perfect sense. For example: In Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

18 posted on 07/27/2007 5:20:28 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: TheRiverNile; vladimir998
Interesting read, though I did find it difficult to figure out just why Martin Luther contended that the Apocrypha were “sub-sciptural.” I would wonder why he would think such a thing.

I believe this may explain it.

19 posted on 07/27/2007 5:26:38 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: franky1
hope you will be perfect at the appointed time

Not a problem. I think being washed in the blood of Christ once is enough, don't you think?

20 posted on 07/27/2007 6:06:31 PM PDT by tbpiper
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To: NYer
if the Apocrypha are inspired books

Therein lies the rub.

21 posted on 07/27/2007 6:09:14 PM PDT by tbpiper
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To: NYer
This proves that there is another state after death,

I beg to differ. The phrase in this world or in the next is to emphasize the fact that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is absolutely unforgivable not to imply that there is a holding pattern for the not-quite-holy-enough to finally get their spiritual act together.

and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory

The early church started out preaching the shed blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. That's what Jesus talked about. At the last supper, I'm sure he didn't say, "...and if My body and blood aren't quite good enough, there's always purgatory..."

By the way, how does one get out of purgatory?

22 posted on 07/27/2007 6:40:46 PM PDT by tbpiper
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To: tbpiper

You misunderstood. For those in purgatory, their sins are forgiven. The Blood of Jesus is applied to them. But the temporal punishment for these sins that is left is what is being repaid there.


23 posted on 07/27/2007 6:51:07 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: NYer
The successors of the Apostles are the priests in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

That's a load of crap. The Catholic and Orthodox churches can't even agree on who the real pope is. With all of their history and tradition they might have a clue. However, it just seems to cloud the argument. Besides, Jesus is the head of the church not some man and the Holy Spirit is given to every believer not a select few.

24 posted on 07/27/2007 7:00:44 PM PDT by tbpiper
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To: Pyro7480
You misunderstood. For those in purgatory, their sins are forgiven. The Blood of Jesus is applied to them. But the temporal punishment for these sins that is left is what is being repaid there.

Then you don't understand salvation. If Jesus paid the penalty for our sins on the cross, how come there is some penalty left over for us to pay. If there is, then His blood was not sufficient to wash away our sins. If we take on His righteousness because of the cross, how come we still have to pay a penalty for our unrighteousness that He said he took on the cross? Purgatory cannot be argued from the scriptures without a great deal of manipulation.

25 posted on 07/27/2007 7:10:13 PM PDT by tbpiper
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To: tbpiper

Not from your version of the Scriptures.


26 posted on 07/27/2007 7:16:57 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: sirchtruth; TheRiverNile
Basically, here's how the Apocrypha (or "deuterocanonical books" as the Catholics call them) came to be:

In Jesus's time, the Old Testament canon used by most Jews, including those in Roman Palestine, was the Septuagint (so called because according to Jewish tradition it was prepared by 70 (septuaginta) scholars). This was a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, because by that time most Jews could not speak Hebrew fluently.

The Septuagint contained a number of books that were later dropped from the Jewish canon - 1st & 2nd Maccabees, part of the book of Esther, Ecclesiasticus, etc. By the time the committee that prepared the King James Bible got organized, these books had been dropped from the Jewish canon and thus did not get into the KJV.

But the original Catholic OT was taken from the Septuagint, so it did include those books.

27 posted on 07/27/2007 7:28:07 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: tbpiper
Your sins are forgiven you, and Christ's sacrifice is a full, perfect and complete expiation of the punishment for sin. But sin and sinful habits leave a mark - what we call the temporal consequences of sin. And God being perfect justice, not the least mark of sin can endure in His presence. So Purgatory is for removing those marks and habits and for getting ready.

C.S. Lewis may have explained it best. You have escaped from a train wreck with your life -- but your clothing is filthy, you're unshaven, you're feeling kinda bad. The Host of the Feast says, "Come, enter into joy." You say, "my garments aren't ready, I'm not fit to enter in." The Host says, "Still, come in." "I would rather be clean." "It may hurt." "Even so, Lord!"

28 posted on 07/27/2007 7:33:26 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: tbpiper

“I give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and what you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”


29 posted on 07/27/2007 7:34:57 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: tbpiper

Re: Purgatory

Look at 1 Corinthians 3:14–15: “If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

You see, the Latinate word purgatory means a purgation or burning by fire. Paul in these verses refers to a purgation process whereby a man is saved even though his works are burned away. This is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches. A person at death who still has personal faults is prevented from entering into heaven because he is not completely purified. He must go through a period of purgation in order to be made clean, for nothing unclean will enter heaven (cf. Rev. 21:27).

A key word is “faults”. A fault can be as small as saying an unkind word about your neighbor to another even though the “unkind word” is true.

Moses is an example when he met God. Moses could not look upon God for all the brillance, brillance being perfection.

God bless.


30 posted on 07/27/2007 7:59:23 PM PDT by franky1
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To: NYer

So, if purgatory exists, Hell must not (at least for mere mortals). If my sins can be punished by a stay in purgatory, why did GOD even create a Hell … just for Satan and his fallen angels?

If my sins can be forgiven bya stay in purgatory, why did GOD send his only begotten Son to save us? Jesus would have better spent his time overseeing purgatory than dying on a cross.


31 posted on 07/27/2007 8:08:50 PM PDT by doc1019 (Fred Thompson '08)
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To: TheRiverNile

Martin Luther took out these books because disproved his beliefs about three things and probably others.

Off the top of my head:
Faith ONLY — remember Martin Luther added the word, ONLY
Faith versus works — works are mentioned in some of these books, and disapproved of that theory.
Strong allusions to the Blessed Virgin Mary in the OLD TESTAMENT

I’m sure there are others. Anyone else?


32 posted on 07/27/2007 8:26:20 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: doc1019

Hell does exist. See the link for the Lesson on Hell below.


33 posted on 07/27/2007 8:29:16 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: TheRiverNile

Another thing is Luthers five Solas.............you know what they are.

The Bible and the Catholic Church do not support them. Tradition is proved valid even in your KJV.


34 posted on 07/27/2007 8:30:53 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Doesn’t do much to answer my question.


35 posted on 07/27/2007 8:31:20 PM PDT by doc1019 (Fred Thompson '08)
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To: AnAmericanMother
Purgatory is for removing those marks and habits and for getting ready.

2 Corinthians 5:17 says:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

New creations don't have to be purgatorially spruced up to stand before God.

and

From Hebrews 10:

[19] My friends, the blood of Jesus gives us courage to enter the most holy place [20] by a new way that leads to life! And this way takes us through the curtain that is Christ himself.

[21]We have a great high priest who is in charge of God's house. [22]So let's come near God with pure hearts and a confidence that comes from having faith. Let's keep our hearts pure, our consciences free from evil, and our bodies washed with clean water.

There's no need for any postmortem spiritual purging. It was all done at the cross by the blood of Jesus.

C.S. Lewis misses the mark. You don't show up in heaven tattered and disheveled from a train wreak. No, the blood of Jesus makes it as though you'd never been in a train wreak at all.

36 posted on 07/27/2007 8:33:35 PM PDT by tbpiper
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To: TheRiverNile
Luther's Five Solas
37 posted on 07/27/2007 8:34:15 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: doc1019; NYer
Maybe these links will:

A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 1: Religion
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 2: The Bible and Tradition
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 3: God and the Holy Trinity
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 4: Prayer
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 5: Public Worship of God

A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 6: Angels and Devils
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 7: Human Beings and the Purpose of Life
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 8: Sanctifying Grace
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 9: Heaven
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 10: Mortal and Venial Sin

A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 11: Hell
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 12: Purgatory

38 posted on 07/27/2007 8:37:14 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: franky1
Look at 1 Corinthians 3:14–15

Look at 2 Corinthians 5:17. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

39 posted on 07/27/2007 8:39:42 PM PDT by tbpiper
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To: doc1019

If you get to Purgatory you know that you are going to heaven. It is a waiting place where souls wait to be moved to heaven. This is one of the reasons that Catholics pray for the dead.

Have you had a grandfather, grandmother, mother, father die?

If you said even one prayer for them, maybe you were the one who got them to heaven. The souls in Purgatory and do nothing for themselves, only wait and long for their days in heaven.


40 posted on 07/27/2007 8:43:23 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Oops.

The souls in Purgatory can do nothing for themselves, only wait and long for their days in heaven.


41 posted on 07/27/2007 8:45:41 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Heb: 9:27 … and it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

Don’t see a purgatory anywhere in this verse


42 posted on 07/27/2007 9:00:43 PM PDT by doc1019 (Fred Thompson '08)
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To: doc1019; NYer

Did you read the Lesson above posted by NYer?


43 posted on 07/27/2007 9:09:21 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer

Read any of Maria Simma’s book about the souls in Purgatory.

One is “Get Me Out of Here”


44 posted on 07/27/2007 9:12:02 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Doesn’t change Heb. 9:27.


45 posted on 07/27/2007 9:13:13 PM PDT by doc1019 (Fred Thompson '08)
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To: doc1019

Hebres: 9:27
Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,

I see no conflict with Paul in this statement — other than at that time Revelation had not been revealed to John and written down.

What part of the Lessons are you not understanding. (But maybe it was in a post, and I might be mistaken.)

There are TWO judgments:
First — a particular (individual) judgment at the time of your death — at which you are either judged perfect and go striaght to heaven. (Usally doesn’t happen for us common folk.)
Second — you are judged worthy of heaven, but there is still some cleansing to be done. (Purging)
Third — you are sent straight to hell. (Many atheists will wonder why they are sent to hell at the moment of their death when they have denied God. Hmmmm. Something for them to think about.)

Then there is the General Judgment as portrayed in Revelation where the Sheep are separated from the Goats. One group will go to Hell forever, and one group will go to Heaven forever.

At that time there will be no more Purgatory and only at that time.

Please understand that I am not trying to change your beliefs; I am merely trying to explain the Catholic beliefs.


46 posted on 07/27/2007 9:30:33 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer
Some additional information about Catholic beliefs (as well as Scripture references) on Purgatory:

The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

47 posted on 07/27/2007 9:38:58 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: franky1
Only the perfect go straight to heaven. Therefore hope you will be perfect at the appointed time.

Got it covered...That's why Jesus died on the Cross...Because there is NOTHING I can do on my own to stay out of Hell...

There is NOTHING that will make me (or you) worthy for Heaven...

We can't be good enough, we can't pray enough and no one can pray us into Heaven...

Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

My sins are covered...

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

I am a blessed man...That verse is talking about me...Does the Lord impute sin to you???

48 posted on 07/27/2007 9:39:55 PM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
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To: Salvation

No, I don’t see two judgments in this verse … It is appointed unto man once to die and then the Judgment. Sounds like one judgment to me. No mater how long I ponder this verse, I can only find one judgment.

Sorry if this doesn’t meet with your catholic sensibilities, but this verse is succinct.


49 posted on 07/27/2007 9:41:43 PM PDT by doc1019 (Fred Thompson '08)
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To: doc1019

Been fun, but I have to go to bed now. Niters.


50 posted on 07/27/2007 9:48:19 PM PDT by doc1019 (Fred Thompson '08)
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