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"Dr. Armageddon" and the Future of Israel
American Vision ^ | 7/31/2007 | Gary DeMar

Posted on 08/03/2007 4:32:13 PM PDT by topcat54

John Hagee’s “Christians United for Israel” held its annual meeting in Washington, D.C., last month (July 2007). Supporters of CUFI are looking forward to Armageddon. Of course, they believe they won’t be around to experience it. God will finally fulfill his covenant promises to Israel, but not until He wipes out millions of Jews and billions of others around the world in one final judgment. No wonder an increasing number of people fear “Dr. Armageddon” and his millions of followers. Could their political clout push us toward an all-out Mideast war? There are Jews who support Hagee and CUFI, but I bet they don’t know the whole story.
           
John Walvoord writes that these supposed future judgments will be “without parallel in the history of the world. According to Revelation 6:7 the judgments attending the opening of the fourth seal involve the death with sword, famine, and wild beasts of one fourth of the world’s population. If this were applied to the present world population now approaching three billion, it would mean that 750,000,000 people would perish, more than the total population of North America, Central America, and South America combined.”1
           
Hal Lindsey supports Walvoord’s position, affirming that during the “great tribulation” there will be “death on a massive scale. It staggers the imagination to realize that one-fourth of the world’s population will be destroyed within a matter of days. According to projected census figures this will amount to nearly one billion people!”2 Of course, with the latest census figures (6.6 billion), with the dispensational view in mind, about 1.65 billion people will die. Not only does the world come in for a beating under the dispensational hermeneutic, but Israel is specifically hit hard. Walvoord, with his view of a future post-rapture “great tribulation,” must claim that a large number of Jews living in Israel will be slaughtered. He writes:

The purge of Israel in their time of trouble is described by Zechariah in these words: “And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith Jehovah, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried” (Zechariah 13:8, 9). According to Zechariah’s prophecy, two thirds of the children of Israel in the land will perish, but the one third that are left will be refined and be awaiting the deliverance of God at the second coming of Christ which is described in the next chapter of Zechariah.3

Israel’s present population is around 7 million. If two-thirds of the Jews living in Israel at the time of the “great tribulation” are to die, this will mean the death of more than 4.5 million! In addition, there is continued immigration from the former Soviet Union supported by Christian organizations like “On Wings of Eagles.” Financial support is raised by Christians to fund Jewish settlements in the occupied territories. “‘This is a biblical issue,’ says Theodore T. Beckett, a Colorado developer who founded the Christian-sponsored, adopt-a-settlement program. ‘The Bible says in the last days the Jews will be restored to the nation of Israel.’“4 For every three people who enter, two of them will be killed during the dispensational version of the “great tribulation.” Why aren’t today’s dispensationalists warning Jews about this coming holocaust by encouraging them to leave Israel until the conflagration is over? Instead, we find dispensationalists supporting and encouraging the relocation of Jews to the land of Israel. For what? A future holocaust?
           
Israel was warned by Jesus to “flee to the mountains” (Matt. 24:16). The New Testament is filled with warnings about the coming A.D. 70 holocaust with no encouragement to take up residence in Jerusalem. In fact, there was a mass exodus from the city by those who understood the world-wide implications of the gospel message and the approaching destruction of what was the center of Jewish worship at the time (John 4:21–24).
           
Preterists believe that the events described in Matthew 24:1–34 were fulfilled in the events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. “The guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom [they] murdered between the temple and the altar” (Matt. 23:35) fell upon the generation of Jews who “did not recognize the time of [their] visitation” (Luke 19:44) and crucified “the Lord of glory” (1 Cor. 2:8). How do we know this? Because Jesus told us: “Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation” (Matt. 23:36 and 24:34). No future generation of Jews is meant here. Hagee and his supporters are wrong and dangerous.



1. John F. Walvoord, Israel in Prophecy (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan/Academie, [1962] 1988) 108.

2. Hal Lindsey, There’s a New World Coming (New York: Bantam Books, [1973] 1984), 90. Emphasis in original.

3. Walvoord, Israel in Prophecy, 108. Emphasis added.

4. Ann LoLordo, “Evangelical Christians Come to Jews’ Aid,” Atlanta Constitution (August 8, 1997), A8.


Permission to reprint granted by American Vision P.O. Box 220, Powder Springs, GA 30127, 800-628-9460.


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: dispensationalism; endtimes; hagee; israel; prophecy
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1 posted on 08/03/2007 4:32:16 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: ItsOurTimeNow; HarleyD; suzyjaruki; nobdysfool; jkl1122; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
Reformed Eschatology Ping List (REPL)

"For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22)

2 posted on 08/03/2007 4:34:53 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
Preterists believe that the events described in Matthew 24:1–34 were fulfilled in the events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

Are Preterists the ones whose views are discussed in the article? Or is that a different interpretation. It seems different.

3 posted on 08/03/2007 4:48:46 PM PDT by BlackVeil
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To: BlackVeil
Are Preterists the ones whose views are discussed in the article? Or is that a different interpretation. It seems different.

The article is a critique of futurist dispensationalism. That view holds that there is a future vengeance still to fall upon physical Israel. Two-thirds of those living in the land will be killed. This event happens after the "rapture" of the Church.

4 posted on 08/03/2007 6:06:47 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: BlackVeil
Are Preterists the ones whose views are discussed in the article?

For the preterist view, look at the last couple paragraphs of DeMar's piece. Be aware, also, that there are a variety of different views all called "preterism", some less orthodox than others.

5 posted on 08/03/2007 7:11:22 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("Dispensationalism -- threat or menace?")
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To: topcat54
He writes:

The purge of Israel in their time of trouble is described by Zechariah in these words: “And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith Jehovah, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried” (Zechariah 13:8, 9).

According to Zechariah’s prophecy, two thirds of the children of Israel in the land will perish

Actually his interpretation of Zechariah here is an overstatement of what it actually says. The "two parts therein" does not specifically constitute the children of Israel as those who will be cut off, but may very well refer to the non-Jewish element in the land, aka the Palestinians, whose numbers are swiftly approaching that "two thirds" number.

The "two parts therein" may very well constitute the Palestinian contingent (and those who are selling out their Jewish heritage), and "the third part" would constitute the Jewish inhabitants in the land brought through the fire.

6 posted on 08/04/2007 4:56:15 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: topcat54; 4CJ
John Hagee, CUFI-bashing ping.

ROTFLM*O!!!!! I'm atellin' ya!!!!

7 posted on 08/04/2007 6:10:46 AM PDT by BlabItGrabIt (Get Away from the Blind Side of Life--S.R. Vaughn)
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To: Uncle Chip
The "two parts therein" may very well constitute the Palestinian contingent (and those who are selling out their Jewish heritage), and "the third part" would constitute the Jewish inhabitants in the land brought through the fire.

The context makes it impossible for such an interpretation of the text:

"In that day a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for uncleanness."

The subject of the prophecy is the house of Israel who have defiled themselves with the idols of the nations. This is a judgment against Israel, not Palestinians.

Of course the fundamental error is in trying to apply it to yet-future events.

8 posted on 08/04/2007 7:06:21 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
The subject of the prophecy is the house of Israel who have defiled themselves with the idols of the nations. This is a judgment against Israel, not Palestinians.

Not entirely. The subject of chapters 13 and 14 is the Land of Israel and the cleansing of the land of the unclean spirit, false prophets, and those of other nations who have risen up against Jerusalem. There is no doubt that the spirit of Islam is an unclean spirit within the land and within those who are daily rising up against Jerusalem.

9 posted on 08/04/2007 7:52:40 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: BlabItGrabIt

Please do not use potty language or references to potty language on the Religion Forum.


10 posted on 08/04/2007 8:06:27 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Uncle Chip
Not entirely. The subject of chapters 13 and 14 is the Land of Israel and the cleansing of the land of the unclean spirit, false prophets, and those of other nations who have risen up against Jerusalem.

But the judgment clearly in these chapters is directed against Israel, not the foreign nations.

You seem to be eisegeting the text based on modern events in the Middle East. A very bad idea indeed.

11 posted on 08/04/2007 9:39:43 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
But the judgment clearly in these chapters is directed against Israel, not the foreign nations.

Oh really --- not according to the chapters in my Bible:

"Behold the day of the Lord cometh . . . For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle . . . Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. . . And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth." [Zechariah 14:1,2,3,12]

12 posted on 08/04/2007 10:12:32 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip
And what exactly does that have to do with the judgment of the two-thirds in the land back in chapter 13?

There's also the part that you have conveniently ignored:

"The city [Jerusalem] shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city." (14:2)

And how does this section begin:

"The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel." (12:1)

People also seem to forget some of the time indicators:

"I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness."

The prophecy was intended for a day when men rode horses for transportation and in war, not modern times like today.

It is also a time with the people were still known by their tribe and family (12:12-14). Modern Israel has no such knowledge of family lineage. They have become a nation of inbreeding, cross-breeding with the nation and familial uncertainty.

I'm afraid the idea that this prophecy is about modern times cannot be support from the text.

13 posted on 08/04/2007 11:15:06 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
And what exactly does that have to do with the judgment of the two-thirds in the land back in chapter 13?

The two-thirds of those living in the Land will perish in this battle culminating with chapter 14. They will either join in the siege of Jerusalem, or be casualties of the battle, along with the foreign nations that invade Israel. The one-third that survive will be all Israel brought through the fire.

There's also the part that you have conveniently ignored: "The city [Jerusalem] shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city." (14:2)

I didn't ignore it, I was waiting for you to bring it up. Only half of the city will be captured [probably the Palestinian half of East Jerusalem]. The remnant of the people of Israel will hold onto the other half and the Temple Mount.

And how does this section begin: "The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel."(12:1)

Well clearly this is a heavy message and will not be a walk in the park for anyone, especially for Israel.

"I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness." The prophecy was intended for a day when men rode horses for transportation and in war, not modern times like today.

And yet even in this day vehicle engines are measured in terms of "horsepower". How many horses does your car have under the hood????

It is also a time with the people were still known by their tribe and family (12:12-14). Modern Israel has no such knowledge of family lineage. They have become a nation of inbreeding, cross-breeding with the nation and familial uncertainty.

God knows their family lineage --------- don't you think??? And the marvels of DNA are enabling the Israelis to definitively identify the descendants of the Tribe of Levi, and other tribes to follow.

I'm afraid the idea that this prophecy is about modern times cannot be support from the text.

If it is not yet future then when did it take place in the past????

14 posted on 08/04/2007 1:43:59 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip
And yet even in this day vehicle engines are measured in terms of "horsepower". How many horses does your car have under the hood????

Literal hermeneutic?

15 posted on 08/04/2007 4:33:28 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("Dispensationalism -- threat or menace?")
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To: Lee N. Field
Literal hermeneutic?

Transportational hermeneutic

16 posted on 08/04/2007 5:40:35 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: topcat54

Dr. Hank Hanegraaff (the Bible Answer Man) has a new end times book out “The Apocalypse Code” which takes a very preterest view. I didn’t find it very convincing. One can make a decent preterest argument with regard to Chapter 24 of Matthew (because of the “and this generation shall not pass...” language) but I’ve never heard a convincing preterest interpretation of Revelation. The argument that 666 = Nero Caesar is ludicrous.


17 posted on 08/04/2007 7:04:29 PM PDT by joebuck
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To: joebuck
The argument that 666 = Nero Caesar is ludicrous.

Sounds like you have only heard anti- position.

I would suggest you read Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation by Ken Gentry. It's available online. Check out the chapter on "six hundred and sixty six" and how it fits with Nero.

Then come back and we can talk about what is so "ludicrous" with the position.

18 posted on 08/05/2007 12:44:51 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
"Then come back and we can talk about what is so "ludicrous" with the position."

His argument depends on his very unconvincing assertion that Revelation was written before 70 AD. If one accepts Revelation was written approx 95 AD (the conclusion of the vast majority of those who have researched the issue) it falls apart. Nero had been dead aroud 30 years by that time and had been followed by emporers (Domitian) who were much more prolific in their persecution of the Christians.

19 posted on 08/05/2007 1:34:36 PM PDT by joebuck
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To: topcat54; Uncle Chip
The prophecy was intended for a day when men rode horses for transportation and in war, not modern times like today.

The prophecy was "given" in a day when they understood horses as transportation. They wouldn't have understood tanks, F16's, etc. but we can understand their words and apply them to today's vehicles. I believe it was written for us to warn us about the end of days.

20 posted on 08/05/2007 1:52:35 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: joebuck

I agree with you. A type of antichrist, Nero may have been, but not the AntiChrist described in our Lord’s Revelation to John.

Funny thing about spiritual revelation is that it is indeed very real.

One might study Prophecy from a rationalistic perspective, but without guidance from the Holy Spirit, it isn’t really perceived and graced upon us as He has provided. It’s all from Him and no other.

So it doesn’t really matter how many others accuse or adversarially attack other viewpoints. God Himself reveals His Will through Prophecy and it is also supernaturally understood by the believer through faith in Christ at the grace of God the Holy Spirit.


21 posted on 08/05/2007 3:30:23 PM PDT by Cvengr (The violence of evil is met with the violence of righteousness, justice, love and grace.)
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To: joebuck
His argument depends on his very unconvincing assertion that Revelation was written before 70 AD.

It is a no less credible assertion than the one which places Revelation in the mid 90s. Gentry's thesis is sound in many respects. The later date is built largely on the second-hand testimony of a single church father as recorded by a single church historian a few centuries later. If that is convincing to you, then I'll not try to suggest otherwise.

22 posted on 08/05/2007 4:33:49 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: Ping-Pong; Uncle Chip
They wouldn't have understood tanks, F16's, etc.

That is a poor argument, indeed. Where else in Scripture do we find such an accommodation in language? Nowhere. In fact we see just the opposite. The language of Psalm 22:16 prefigured crucifixion long before it was practiced by Rome.

23 posted on 08/05/2007 4:40:26 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: Cvengr
"I agree with you. A type of antichrist, Nero may have been, but not the AntiChrist described in our Lord’s Revelation to John."

Are you sure antichrist even appears in Revelation? I refer to him as the "beast of Revealtion" because the word antichrist never appears in Revelation. Is the Beast the antichrist named in 1&2 John? Probably. But it's not 100% sure. 1 John 2:11 tells us "...it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come." He then goes on the state that "This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son." As you alluded to, I believe John is referring to both the spirit of the antichrist here and to the beast when he refers to him in the singular in 1Jn 2:11. From the little horn to the man of perdition, different writers have used different names in referring to Satan's one and only head honcho in the final hours.

One of the things that makes eschatology so intriquing is that you can read 10 different biblical expositors, all of whom you respect and admire, and get 10 different interpretations - each of which makes sense. The Holy Spirit hasn't convicted me of any of the popular views and I personally don't believe enough history has been revealed to do anything but draw the very general outlines. The good thing is Christ wins in every scenario - thus so do we.

24 posted on 08/05/2007 4:57:01 PM PDT by joebuck
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To: topcat54; Uncle Chip
Ping ...They wouldn't have understood tanks, F16's, etc.

TC...That is a poor argument, indeed. Where else in Scripture do we find such an accommodation in language? Nowhere. In fact we see just the opposite. The language of Psalm 22:16 prefigured crucifixion long before it was practiced by Rome.

I don't understand what you mean. What accommodation?

Yes, Psalms 22 tells us about the crucifixion 1000 years before the event - that is prophecy, but it didn't use the word "crucifixion", it described it.. Zechariah also tells us of what will happen in the future but he uses words that he and others of his time can understand - horses and chariots.

25 posted on 08/05/2007 4:58:31 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: topcat54
"The later date is built largely on the second-hand testimony of a single church father as recorded by a single church historian a few centuries later."

And I'll take that over raw speculation anyday. Also, why doesn't Tertullian bring up the whole nero caesar thing? He was one generation removed from the Apostle John and wrote the first commentary on Revelation. Had this been a reference to Nero Tertullian would have been all over that like Michale Moore on a honey glazed ham. (No offense Mike - just joshing)

26 posted on 08/05/2007 5:06:30 PM PDT by joebuck
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To: Ping-Pong; Uncle Chip
Yes, Psalms 22 tells us about the crucifixion 1000 years before the event - that is prophecy, but it didn't use the word "crucifixion", it described it.. Zechariah also tells us of what will happen in the future but he uses words that he and others of his time can understand - horses and chariots.

That is accommodation of language, the idea that God had to use langue common in one age to describe far future events inconceivable to the mind of the original reader. It is not found anywhere is Scripture.

It is pure, raw assertion without any biblical support to say that Zechariah uses the language of horses, etc to describe future weaponry like F-16s.

It is only necessary for literalist futurists who ignore the plain context and meaning of the passage.

27 posted on 08/06/2007 6:43:18 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: BlabItGrabIt
John Hagee, CUFI-bashing ping.

My friend, I thinks it's a cowinidink!

28 posted on 08/06/2007 6:47:43 AM PDT by 4CJ (Annoy a liberal, honour Christians and our gallant Confederate dead)
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To: joebuck
And I'll take that over raw speculation anyday.

I'm afraid you do not understand the true nature of raw specualtion. What Gentry does in his book is not raw speculation.

BTW, Gentry's book is the full length version of his doctoral dissertation, which generally schools do not grant for "raw speculation".

29 posted on 08/06/2007 7:14:34 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
It is pure, raw assertion without any biblical support to say that Zechariah uses the language of horses, etc to describe future weaponry like F-16s.

What language did God use to describe the crucifixion? What language did He use to describe the vehicle Ezekiel saw? What language did He use to describe Satan in the garden? The Bible is full of Him painting pictures with words for us and that opens up context and meaning.

30 posted on 08/06/2007 9:28:10 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong; Uncle Chip
What language did God use to describe the crucifixion?

He used the language of crucifixion, pierced hands and feet. He didn’t use the language of stoning (current form of execution) to describe the crucifixion (an unknown form of punishment at the time of the prophecy).

What language did He use to describe the vehicle Ezekiel saw?

What Ezekiel saw was not some far future prophecy. It was a contemporary event. Ezekiel did not see some future super-duper weapon system.

It’s obvious you are missing the point wrt prophecy. You are getting side-tracked by your own predicament. Nowhere in the Bible did God use accommodating language to describe some far future event. To apply such a notion in the case of Zechariah’s horses in scripturally unsound.

31 posted on 08/06/2007 9:37:38 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54; Ping-Pong
Nowhere in the Bible did God use accommodating language to describe some far future event.

So then Jesus was really a "lamb"???

32 posted on 08/06/2007 9:58:45 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip; Ping-Pong
So then Jesus was really a "lamb"???

"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, 'Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! '" (John 1:29)

That was not a prophecy. And that language is not accommodating in any way ala Ping’s theory. What you have is a perfectly descriptive statement of Christ’s purpose in coming into the world.

If you are content to confuse that sort of statement made by John with the highly suspect and unscriptural notion that when God said "horses" in the Bible He really meant F-16s, you are on your own.

33 posted on 08/06/2007 12:19:30 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54; Uncle Chip
To apply such a notion in the case of Zechariah’s horses is scripturally unsound

The "horses" turn to chariots before this book ends and that makes them men of war.

I think to not see what God means would be unsound.

What words would you have used to describe weapons of war that will happen at the end of days?

34 posted on 08/06/2007 12:29:28 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: Ping-Pong; Uncle Chip
The "horses" turn to chariots before this book ends and that makes them men of war.

Huh?? I don’t know what you are talking about.

I think to not see what God means would be unsound.

This is called begging the question. What God means is the very thing in question. You have not proved from Scripture that you know what God means. The plain literal meaning is that horses mean horses, not F-16s.

What words would you have used to describe weapons of war that will happen at the end of days?

Again, your faulty presupposition is that this passage is talking about events far in the future, when technology is running wild. I do not subscribe to that theory. And it is not required from the text alone. Some folks have adopted that theory based on their own presuppositions about "end times".

"But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, ..." (Acts 2:16,17)

"Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour." (1 John 2:18)

35 posted on 08/06/2007 12:41:55 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
the highly suspect and unscriptural notion that when God said "horses" in the Bible He really meant F-16s

That is highly suspect. Those would have to be winged horses to be F-16s.

36 posted on 08/06/2007 1:08:55 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: topcat54
All right, you have been rather persuasive. Those have to be real horses not vehicles [no matter how much horsepower]. So let's return to your earlier post:

"I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness."

The prophecy was intended for a day when men rode horses for transportation and in war, not modern times like today.

Says who??? Do soldiers ride horses in any armies today? Do policemen patrol cities on horseback today??? Do they ride horses anywhere in the Middle East today??? Are horses entirely obsolete for all armies and all military purposes. Perhaps in a future of gasoline shortages and hummer scarcities, the horse might be pressed into service just as in WWI and even early WWII.

37 posted on 08/06/2007 2:02:31 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: topcat54

A horse is a horse of course, of course...

unless your a dipsy! Then, everything in Revelation describes a 20th Century invention until the Rapture is delayed and then everything will be a 21st Century invention.

What I find funny is that John was instructed to write what he saw and somehow he described a huge beast that people got in as a horse. Why would they not be horse-less chariots?

Everyone preaches that they believe in a literal interpretation until they run into verses that don’t fit their literal interpretation.


38 posted on 08/06/2007 2:15:50 PM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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To: Uncle Chip
Says who??? Do soldiers ride horses in any armies today?

Nope. I bet if you go to the headquwaters of the 7th Calvary you will finds tanks not horses.

Do policemen patrol cities on horseback today???

This is not speaking of police as we know them. Police do not wage war.

Perhaps in a future of ...

Ah, yes, the "perhaps" exegesis of the text. Like the "perhaps" exegesis that in the future guns and tanks and artilary will be made out of wood to fulfill Ezekiel 39:9, even though the passage speaks of " shields and bucklers, the bows and arrows, the javelins and spears, and they will make fires with them for seven years".

39 posted on 08/06/2007 3:41:33 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54

So you are saying that there are no horses in the Middle East today and at no time in the future will anyone want to ride a horse over there in Israel -—— Is that right???


40 posted on 08/06/2007 4:05:07 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: topcat54; Uncle Chip
Some folks have adopted that theory based on their own presuppositions about "end times".

And some folks have a theory, based on scant, taken out of context scripture, that we have experienced end times and are in the millennium - go figure.

You have not proved from Scripture that you know what God means. The plain literal meaning is that horses mean horses, not F-16s.

Let's clear up the "F-16's" first. You are being much too literal. I mean machines of war "like", F-16's, tanks, helicopters, whatever - just machines of war in place of horses and chariots of war.

Zech.6:1 And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass
Unless you think these mountains are literal brass you will understand that they are nations.

2.In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;
3.And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.
4.Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, "What are these, my lord?"
5.And the angel answered and said unto me, 'These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

Notice the horses were "in" the chariots, not pulling them. They aren't horses. The angel then tells us that they are the "four spirits". Whenever the 4 spirits are mentioned they always have to do with the end of this age. Rev.7, Daniel 7, Ezekiel 37.

You gave this scripture and I'm not sure why. Perhaps to make it fit your idea that we're in the millennium. "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour." (1 John 2:18)

Top Cat to fully understand that you must start at vs. 17:

17.And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Now read vs. 18 and you understand that John is speaking about the end of our age. The world hasn't "passeth away" yet. That is the "last hour" when anti-christ comes.

"But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, ..." (Acts 2:16,17)

I don't know why you posted that scripture. What does it have to do with what we are discussing? Do you think that has already taken place? Do you think the anti-christ has already come and gone?

41 posted on 08/06/2007 4:28:44 PM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: Uncle Chip
So you are saying that there are no horses in the Middle East today and at no time in the future will anyone want to ride a horse over there in Israel -—— Is that right???

There is no legitimate indication that horses will play any prominent role in modern warfare now or in the future in the Middle East. Such a position is pure speculation, and is merely one of convenience to explain away the plain teaching of certain Scripture passages.

42 posted on 08/06/2007 5:14:48 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: Ping-Pong; Uncle Chip
Let's clear up the "F-16's" first. You are being much too literal. I mean machines of war "like", F-16's, tanks, helicopters, whatever - just machines of war in place of horses and chariots of war.

What difference does it make? You're still "spiritualizing" the passage in order to apply it far in the future. It says "horses", not tanks or helicopters or artillery.

Zech.6:1 And I turned, and lifted … Why the need to suddenly turn to Zech 6 when you haven’t even been able to explain Zech 12-14. You have not demonstrated any connection between the horses in chapter 6 and the ones in the later chapters. The context is entirely different.

“In that day," says the Lord, "I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness.”

Now, tell me why this would be such a great calamity when horses are no longer a primary/important means of transportation and commerce?

I don't know why you posted that scripture.

Apparently.

43 posted on 08/06/2007 5:31:39 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
There is no legitimate indication that horses will play any prominent role in modern warfare now or in the future in the Middle East.

Who said anything about a "prominent role"??? Can you state unequivocably that horses will not be there at all??? or that they will not have atleast a "bit" part in the drama???

44 posted on 08/06/2007 6:59:44 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip; Ping-Pong
Who said anything about a "prominent role"??? Can you state unequivocably that horses will not be there at all??? or that they will not have atleast a "bit" part in the drama???

See my response to Ping. It makes no sense for God to mention the trouble to fall upon horse and rider unless they are prominent.

"In that day," says the Lord, "I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness."

It's no big deal to "strike every horse with confusion" if no one is using horses for anything significant. It's like God saying today, "I'll take away all your buggy whips and button hooks." Who would notice?

45 posted on 08/06/2007 7:39:06 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54; Ping-Pong
It makes no sense for God to mention the trouble to fall upon horse and rider unless they are prominent.

So just when did chapter 13-14 of Zechariah take place if it is not yet future???? or is God just going to have to erase those two chapters from the scriptures because they don't ride horses over there anymore???

46 posted on 08/07/2007 5:49:16 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip; Ping-Pong
So just when did chapter 13-14 of Zechariah take place if it is not yet future???? or is God just going to have to erase those two chapters from the scriptures because they don't ride horses over there anymore???

Since the entire Old Testament, all the law and the prophets, anticipated the coming of Messiah into the world, the best explanation is to understand these chapters in the context of what happened when Jesus Christ came to save His people from their sins, and the ongoing work of establishing His kingdom over the kingdoms of the earth, putting all nations under His feet.

IOW, you cannot understand these chapters without turning to the pages of the New Testament to examine the fulfillment. There we find things like Jerusalem as not so much referring to the physical city on earth, but the heavenly city within the righteous dwell in peace and security.

21 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband." 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. (Gal. 4)
And again, we read in Hebrews 12:
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
The common mistake of many folks is to attempt to read the Old Testament prophecies in isolation or in opposition to the reality of the New Testament. If the New Testament apostles and writers understood Jerusalem principally in a spiritual rather than earthly sense, why do people force themselves to see things differently?
47 posted on 08/07/2007 10:17:12 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54; Uncle Chip
You're still "spiritualizing" the passage in order to apply it far in the future. It says "horses", not tanks or helicopters or artillery.

I don't think it is "far" in the future at all, nor do I think it was in the past. It does say horses but it should not be taken literally (as many things in the Bible), especially when what they are is explained to you by the Angel of God. That leaves no room for interpretation.

Zech.6:1 And I turned, and lifted … Why the need to suddenly turn to Zech 6 when you haven’t even been able to explain Zech 12-14. You have not demonstrated any connection between the horses in chapter 6 and the ones in the later chapters. The context is entirely different.

So you believe the "horses" in chapter one are not the same as the "horses" in chapter 6? They are the same horses and what they are is explained to us so there could be no mistake:

6:5 (the reply after asking what the horses were) And the angel answered and said unto me, "These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

You say that I haven't explained what they are but I'm showing you that the Angel of the Lord has.

Now, tell me why this would be such a great calamity when horses are no longer a primary/important means of transportation and commerce?

It wouldn't be if they were actual horses. The scripture is speaking of the Lord's Day, when His wrath pours out on anyone going against the house of Judah. He is speaking about the armies that come against her. His army against their army.

"I don't know why you posted that scripture."....Apparently.

That was your chance to explain. Why didn't you?

48 posted on 08/07/2007 11:38:24 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: topcat54; Uncle Chip
Thank you for taking time with the scripture TopCat.

If the New Testament apostles and writers understood Jerusalem principally in a spiritual rather than earthly sense, why do people force themselves to see things differently?

Because they are looking forward to the time we will live in Jerusalem in our spiritual bodies but it will be on earth.

49 posted on 08/07/2007 11:50:14 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: topcat54; Ping-Pong
you cannot understand these chapters without turning to the pages of the New Testament to examine the fulfillment. There we find things like Jerusalem as not so much referring to the physical city on earth, but the heavenly city within the righteous dwell in peace and security.

So then chapters 13-14 of Zechariah took place in heaven not on earth??? or are they going to take place in heaven not on earth??? or are you going to have to resort to allegorizations now that will make that allegorical horse a pale horse by comparison????

50 posted on 08/07/2007 12:51:54 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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