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Conversion Story - Matt Enloe (former Baptist) [prepare to be amazed!]
Enloeapologetics ^ | Matt Enloe

Posted on 08/08/2007 1:31:31 PM PDT by NYer

Why I am who I am


My earliest religious memory is that of a 6 year old, standing in the vestibule of the 2nd Baptist Church in Fairfield, Texas. My Aunt was discussing with me the merits of Jesus Christ, and my need for his Saving Grace. I vaguely knew who Jesus was but did know that I wanted to go to Heaven, so the generic sequence that followed, most Christians in the United States will recognize; "Dear Jesus, please come into my heart, be my Lord and Savior. I ask this in the name of Jesus, Amen."

That particular Sunday was in its peak of wondrous splendor, as only those who have experienced Texas weather can attest to. Bright blue sky, completely cloudless of course, and it was in the Spring so it was actually cool natured. I vividly recall the sunlight as it streamed through the beautiful stained glass windows onto the bright red carpet.

Even at that young of an age, I preferred the simple and grand majesty of old Baptist traditions to those of my parents' 50 year old non-denominational Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas. Not that I could properly identify why at the time, I only knew that I loved my Grandparents deeply, and treasured every moment that I spent with them. It was not until many years later that I even discovered this preference, much less why I felt that way.

The only thing I knew, at that time, is that God was "old", and the 70 year old Baptist Preacher made him real in a way that my childhood church did not. I had to be reverent going to my Grandparent's church. God was all powerful and I would respect him, and obey what was said and what was in the Bible. In other words, I developed an awe and respect for God at a very young age.

At the early age of 7 I had my first confrontation with my very religious Grandmother. We were enjoying the infrequent quarterly observance of Communion, as the Pastor read the passages from the Gospels regarding the Lord's Supper.

Oddly enough, I observed the congregation around me behaving in a less reverential manner than that which I was raised to adhere myself to. They seemed almost bored, or annoyed that the service was taking longer than the traditional length of 1 hour to 1 hour and 15 minutes, and were most impatient to leave.

Afterwards, I asked my Grandmother why people had behaved that way. Being the protective yet wonderful woman that she was that recognized my early intelligence she gave it to me straight.

She confirmed what I had thought earlier about the service taking longer than they were accustomed to, and their reaction to it.


I then asked her the question that started the confrontation:


"But he said that it was Jesus' Body [and Blood]."

She gave me a hard look and said:

"Yes sweetheart, but what he meant was that it was done in 'memory of me'. Do you know what a symbol is?"

I was getting confused at this point and responded with something to the effect of:

"It's like a picture that means something, right?"

"Yes". She smiled deeply.


Nothing more was said, but I noticed the several sideways glances that she gave me and I became even more confused. Did I ask something wrong? I decided to keep my thoughts to myself.

I was at odds with what she said and what Jesus said.

"This is my body..." ~Take and eat this in Memory of me.

Not ~"This is the memory of my Body, take and eat it for me."

Why even go through the motions of recreating a scene? According to my childhood church, tradition and memory meant nothing, only Faith.

Read the rest here (and do read the rest - long but riveting!)


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: baptist; conversion; conversionstory; convert
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 08/08/2007 1:31:35 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Look forward to your comments!


2 posted on 08/08/2007 1:32:37 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer

“According to my childhood church, tradition and memory meant nothing, only Faith.”

Just so everyone is clear, that is NOT what Sola Scriptura means. That could be inferred from the context, though I don’t think that is what the author meant. That is also not really the position of many Protestants. Just getting out in front of the possible straw man. Good read.


3 posted on 08/08/2007 2:11:29 PM PDT by cdcdawg
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To: NYer
Catholic and Proud of It BUMP

"Trying to remind Catholics of Distributism..."

4 posted on 08/08/2007 4:33:02 PM PDT by Siobhan (America without God is dead.)
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To: NYer

I figured this was a Romney pump....


5 posted on 08/08/2007 4:36:01 PM PDT by Osage Orange (Molon Labe)
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To: NYer
What a detailed and well-documented journey.

However after reading the article and clicking back to FR I realize the print is too small now. Maybe we should post everything in that Reader's Digest big print:)

6 posted on 08/08/2007 6:12:17 PM PDT by twin2
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To: NYer

That misreading of scripture has converted and kept many people in the Catholic church. But if God had intended to save him, he would have understood the actual meaning of the words of Christ and he would have known they, like most of the teachings of Christ were hidden from the unsaved and not literal.

The Last Supper was actually the Last “passover “ and the 1st Lords Supper.

Gods intervention to end the slavery of His people by the Egyptians held many types that pointed to Christ’s death .

We see as a prime example the final plague God brought on the Egyptians.
Every 1st born was to die at the hand of Gods avenging angel.

God gave specific orders on how the jews were to be protected from that sword of death.

They were to have a perfect Lamb and to slaughter him. They were to spread the blood of that lamb over the drop posts ( in a shape similar to a cross) When the angel saw that blood he would pass over that home and the people inside were preserved from the plague.

God gave specific instructions on how to eat that Lamb, that passover meal was to be a ritual that would be celebrated in remembrance of the grace and salvation of God for His people.

That meal prefigured Christ, on the night Jesus was betrayed they celebrated the meal that prefigured His coming .

Christ OUR PASSOVER LAMB would be slain, and many would be saved that were under His blood.

There was a piece of matzo broken into 3 parts.

One pieces was broken and the hidden piece it was wrapped in white linen ( as Christ dead body was in the tomb ) it is called the aphikomen

When the meal is finished the host breaks off olive-size pieces of matzoh from the aphikomen and distributes them to all. They each eat it, in a reverent manner. Sometimes there is a blessing, “In memory of the Passover sacrifice, eaten after one is sated.”

It was at THIS point during the Last Supper Jesus broke the bread and passed bits to His disciples; however, Jesus added the significant words given in Luke 22:19),

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying,[b] This is my body which is given for you:[/b] this do in remembrance of me.

The symbolic broken matzo wrapped in white linen was the symbolic body of Christ revealed in the passover meal. Jesus was revealing the prophetic nature of the passover and the passover meal.

Consider that Jews had a probation against the eating of blood, yet not one disciple asked Jesus what He meant. That is because they understood when he took the APHIKOMEN into his hands, this broken Matzo that had been hidden in a linen wrap was symbolic of HIM.

Matzo has no leaven, leaven is a sign of sin. Jesus was sinless.
The Matzo had been broken as His body would be broken .

It was wrapped in linen as He would be and be hidden for a time.

This is the exact spot where Jesus proclaimed “This is my body which is given for you.” as he held that broken Matzo

The next step of the ritual meal is drinking from the wine-goblet called the “Cup of Redemption.” That’s when Jesus said,

“This cup is the New Testament (Covenant ) in my blood, which is shed for you.”

The Passover meal was a REMEMBRANCE of the deliverance of the Jews. Just as the passover was a type of Christ so is the Passover meal.

Jesus was telling them this, and He was telling them NOW instead of the remembrance of the passover, their eyes were opened and the meaning revealed NOW they were to do the mean in remembrance of HIM, of His blood, the blood of the Lamb of God.

As He held that bread He was revealing the mystery that the symbolism held.

Think of the words the apostles used

1Cr 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

The broken matzo was a type of Christ, who’s body would be broken for them.

Then in the passover tradition

The host now takes the third cup of wine, “the cup of redemption,” or “the cup of blessing,” and offers the main table grace blessing. (In Jewish tradition, the main blessing comes after the meal.) Then they all drink from the third cup.

Luke 22:20,

“Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you’.”

Here is what the apostles and disciples said at the Lords table

1Cr 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

The were recalling “remembering” the PASSOVER ritual. THEY understood that Jesus was revealing a spiritual truth about the passover being a prophetic meal that prefigured HIM.

The Passover was fulfilled on the day that Christ died, and so from that day forward that meal not longer held a prophetic promise of a future savior, but it was now a remembrance of the completed work of salvation at the cross.


7 posted on 08/08/2007 6:47:14 PM PDT by ears_to_hear (Pray for America)
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To: NYer
At the early age of 7 I had my first confrontation with my very religious Grandmother. We were enjoying the infrequent quarterly observance of Communion, as the Pastor read the passages from the Gospels regarding the Lord's Supper. Oddly enough, I observed the congregation around me behaving in a less reverential manner than that which I was raised to adhere myself to. They seemed almost bored, or annoyed that the service was taking longer than the traditional length of 1 hour to 1 hour and 15 minutes, and were most impatient to leave. Afterwards, I asked my Grandmother why people had behaved that way. Being the protective yet wonderful woman that she was that recognized my early intelligence she gave it to me straight.

All that at age 7, huh?????? It's clear that Matt is making this all up. Make sure he gets to the Confessional before next Sunday --- a dozen Hail Mary's or a rosary or two should atone for his obvious prefabrication here.

8 posted on 08/08/2007 7:03:46 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: ears_to_hear

That’s a great read. Thx.


9 posted on 08/08/2007 7:04:42 PM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: Uncle Chip

Oh? Isn’t that a bit presumptuous on your part?


10 posted on 08/08/2007 7:23:00 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Uncle Chip
"my early intelligence"

Matt must have been exceptional! I hardly remember what was going on in church when I was 7, but I do remember watching Lawrence Welk on Saturday night while my mom pinned my hair up in preparation for Sunday.

11 posted on 08/08/2007 8:14:27 PM PDT by suzyjaruki (Why?)
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To: NYer
Conversion Story - Matt Enloe (former Baptist) [prepare to be amazed!]
THE ORTHODOX REVIVAL IN RUSSIA

Conversion Story - David Finkelstein (former Jew)
Conversion Story - John Weidner (former Evangelical)
12 Reasons I Joined the Catholic Church
Conversion Story - Tom Hunt
The Tide Is Turning Toward Catholicism: The Converts

John Calvin Made Me Catholic
Journey Home - May 21 - Neil Babcox (former Presbyterian) - A minister encounters Mary
Going Catholic - Six journeys to Rome
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church
From Calvinist to Catholic

A Convert's Pilgrimage [Christopher Cuddy]
From Pastor to Parishioner: My Love for Christ Led Me Home (to the Catholic Church) [Drake McCalister]
Lutheran professor of philosophy prepares to enter Catholic Church
Patty Bonds (former Baptist and sister of Dr. James White) to appear on The Journey Home - May 7
Pastor and Flock Become Catholics

The journey back - Dr. Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church
Famous Homosexual Italian Author Returned to the Church Before Dying of AIDS
Dr. Francis Beckwith Returns To Full Communion With The Church
Catholic Converts - Stephen K. Ray (former Evangelical)
Catholic Converts - Malcolm Muggeridge

Catholic Converts - Richard John Neuhaus
Catholic Converts - Avery Cardinal Dulles
Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome
Catholic Converts - Robert H. Bork , American Jurist (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic Converts - Marcus Grodi

Why Converts Choose Catholicism
The Scott Hahn Conversion Story
FORMER PENTECOSTAL RELATES MIRACLE THAT OCCURRED WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD
John Calvin Made Me Catholic
Journey Home - May 21 - Neil Babcox (former Presbyterian) - A minister encounters Mary

Going Catholic - Six journeys to Rome
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church
From Calvinist to Catholic
A Convert's Pilgrimage [Christopher Cuddy]
From Pastor to Parishioner: My Love for Christ Led Me Home (to the Catholic Church) [Drake McCalister]
Lutheran professor of philosophy prepares to enter Catholic Church

Patty Bonds (former Baptist and sister of Dr. James White) to appear on The Journey Home - May 7
Pastor and Flock Become Catholics
The journey back - Dr. Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church
Famous Homosexual Italian Author Returned to the Church Before Dying of AIDS
Dr. Francis Beckwith Returns To Full Communion With The Church

Catholic Converts - Stephen K. Ray (former Evangelical)
Catholic Converts - Malcolm Muggeridge
Catholic Converts - Richard John Neuhaus
Catholic Converts - Avery Cardinal Dulles
Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome

Catholic Converts - Robert H. Bork , American Jurist (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic Converts - Marcus Grodi
Why Converts Choose Catholicism
The Scott Hahn Conversion Story
FORMER PENTECOSTAL RELATES MIRACLE THAT OCCURRED WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD

12 posted on 08/08/2007 9:43:07 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

I do remember what went on in our church when I was 7, and even today I can remember one of my memory verses.


13 posted on 08/09/2007 3:50:46 AM PDT by tessalu
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To: Uncle Chip

“All that at age 7, huh?????? It’s clear that Matt is making this all up. Make sure he gets to the Confessional before next Sunday -— a dozen Hail Mary’s or a rosary or two should atone for his obvious prefabrication here.”

Ouch! Too early (if ever) in the morning to read such an uncharitable statement.


14 posted on 08/09/2007 6:45:54 AM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: suzyjaruki

At 7 years old, I was an Altar Boy ... I definitely knew what was going on at Mass. I was far from unusual.


15 posted on 08/09/2007 6:50:39 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

I have memories from four years of age that my much, much older siblings wish I’d forget!


16 posted on 08/09/2007 6:53:25 AM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: OpusatFR

Four? I’m impressed ... my earliest “church” memories go back to about 5. I got to sit with my Mom in the choir loft ... the view was spectacular.


17 posted on 08/09/2007 6:55:46 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

I remember runing up and down a little incline (that seemed like a hill at the time) on the church lawn after mass while my parents stood nearby talking to the priest of Cure d’Ars Church. Very sunny morning, quite warm.

I must have been about four at the time. Don’t remember the service though.


18 posted on 08/09/2007 6:58:24 AM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: NYer
My earliest religious memory is that of a 6 year old, standing in the vestibule of the 2nd Baptist Church in Fairfield, Texas.

I couldn't remember being baptized, so I called my father knowing that it would have been done late so I should remember it, but did not. No baptismal record was ever found.

So this fella grew up and got saved in a Baptist church, had Baptist parents and Baptist Grandparents and never got baptized...

Catholics would buy into this but I doubt a Baptist could be found that would believe this story...There may be some elements to this story that are true but I wouldn't put much stock in it...

19 posted on 08/09/2007 7:09:28 AM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
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To: ArrogantBustard; Uncle Chip

As I think about it, I do remember being in church with my parents and brothers. Maybe the reason I don’t have specific memories (at 7 yrs. old) is because I just accepted my parents beliefs as being true and our practice of religion as being a natural part of our family life together. Routine.


20 posted on 08/09/2007 7:46:47 AM PDT by suzyjaruki (Why?)
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To: ArrogantBustard
At age 7, I was an altar boy in training. Our class of 5 trainees was required to sit in the front pew during one Mass to observe the fine details of serving.

One of the altar boys serving was the star of our high school basketball team (in a town of 300). He was gangly and well over 6' tall. When he went to stand up after kneeling at the side of the altar, the back of his cassock caught on the heel of his shoe and he stumbled backwards across the sactuary with his arms flailing until he landed on the bench against the wall where Father and the servers sat.

When I looked up to see what our very ancient and stern priest was going to do, he was just standing there behind the altar looking straight ahead with his arms still raised, tears in his eyes, and his face screwed down as tight as he could get it to maintain his composure. And he stayed like that for a minute or two until he could continue.

You'd have to have been there to appreciate it, but that is still one of the funniest moments I can ever remember from Mass. It still makes me laugh when I think about it.

21 posted on 08/09/2007 7:50:26 AM PDT by Titanites
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To: ears_to_hear
Jesus just instituted a bunch of new symbols to replace the old ones, huh? What a waste of his time! Guess the author of Hebrews didn't get the memo.

That's the (gnosticism alert!) "special knowledge" that's hidden from the "unsaved" who don't have the magic Protestant glasses to see that Jesus says one thing and means another.

Unfortunately for you, nobody else had those Protestant glasses for the first 800 years of Christian history, including men who learned their Christianity at the feet of the apostles. Was Ignatius of Antioch, who learned the Gospel from Peter and Paul, and who wrote, as he traveled to his martyrdom, that we ought not to even speak of heretics who deny that the Eucharist is the flesh of Christ which was crucified for us ... was he among the "unsaved"?

22 posted on 08/09/2007 7:55:05 AM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Titanites

That’s what happens when your cassock is too long. You kneel, and it drapes over your heels. You stand, and step on the thing ... then you’re in trouble. For a growing boy, consistently having a properly sized cassock can be a challenge.


23 posted on 08/09/2007 7:55:49 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Iscool
According to Baptist belief, baptism is another one of those signs or symbols that Christ instituted that don't really do anything, objectively speaking. Someone is saved (according to Baptist belief) when they "ask Jesus into their heart" or "take him as their personal savior", not when they're baptized.

So what difference does it make?

I don't believe you ever answered me before when I asked you if a "once saved always saved" Christian who became a believing Catholic is still saved. Are they?

24 posted on 08/09/2007 8:03:36 AM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Iscool
So this fella grew up and got saved in a Baptist church, had Baptist parents and Baptist Grandparents and never got baptized...

He said "No baptismal record was ever found." That doesn't mean he wasn't baptized.

25 posted on 08/09/2007 9:32:54 AM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer
He said "No baptismal record was ever found." That doesn't mean he wasn't baptized.

There was no formal record of mine, though I remember it. I was 7, possibly 8, full immersion Southern Baptist. I had my Dad contact the church secretary from the time, who also remembered it, and as a non-relative, the letter she was kind enough to write was accepted at the parish where I was received.

The issue of nonexistence of my baptismal certificate was what brought out the disaster of my RCIA class - after 4 1/2 months of what I had thought was instruction (and I thought it was pretty lame - I remember writing at least one essay on my "faith journey") when we were preparing to be received at the Easter Vigil, I was told that my lack of a certificate didn't matter, because I wouldn't be received for another year anyway. The (thankfully former) director of RCIA there had decided that everyone had to go through a year of "seeking" before the real "instruction" started. I switched to another parish the next week, the pastor worked with me extra, and I was received that Easter after all, Easter of 2000. Deo Gratias.

26 posted on 08/09/2007 10:35:44 AM PDT by nina0113 (If fences don't work, why does the White House have one?)
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To: ears_to_hear

Nice polemic. ;)


27 posted on 08/15/2007 12:35:28 PM PDT by Charles07
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To: Uncle Chip

False. I am not a liar. :)

Matt Enloe


28 posted on 08/15/2007 12:35:31 PM PDT by Charles07
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To: Iscool

Maybe if you had actually read my story and not taken things out of context, you would have actually had something interesting to comment on.

My parents were NOT Baptist.

Moreover, they disagreed with baptism; this is why I was not baptised.

Next time, please read the entire story, and resist the urge to yank things out of context.

-Matt Enloe


29 posted on 08/15/2007 12:35:34 PM PDT by Charles07
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To: Charles07
False. I am not a liar. :) Matt Enloe

Say those Hail Marys and a Rosary or two anyway --- just in case :) UC

30 posted on 08/15/2007 2:36:15 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip

Sure. :)

For your return to the Church. ;)


31 posted on 08/15/2007 3:20:03 PM PDT by Charles07
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To: Charles07
Sure. :)For your return to the Church. ;)

In that case you better double or triple it ---- with a novena :)

32 posted on 08/15/2007 4:23:36 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip

I’ll help him.


33 posted on 08/15/2007 5:16:44 PM PDT by Running On Empty (The three sorriest words: "It's too late")
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To: NYer
Revelation 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, (then) I will enter his house and dine with him, and he with me.

The Calvinists around her don't like this verse because it supports "free will", and they can have that. It would screw up the whole predestination/double predestination thing.

34 posted on 08/15/2007 5:24:59 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: suzyjaruki
I don't remember going to church regularly but I'm sure we did cuz my mom was in the choir.

I remember the day I got baptized, I was 5. I don't remember the actual rite but I can tell you exactly what I was wearing.

35 posted on 08/15/2007 6:03:14 PM PDT by tiki
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To: NYer
::Sigh:: It is so boring to read of these Protestant converts coming into the "absolutely unchanged" church whose imprimatur is on innumerable volumes teaching limited inerrancy (if any at all), higher Biblical criticism, and evolution. I notice these people like to ignore these issues. Perhaps they've converted all the way and become higher critics and evolutionists themselves?

It's also quite maddening to read these Protestant converts boasting of the "unity" of the Catholic Church. Never mind that the spectrum of beliefs within the "one true unchanging church" is as great as that among Protestant denominations. As long as everyone belongs to the same organization and recites the same words (which each interprets differently) then everything is just hunky-dory.

The Catholic Church, if it is hated by the "world," is not hated nearly as much as Fundamentalist Protestants are. In fact, the intellectualism of the Catholic Church means it actually enjoys much respect from the world.

And finally, if you can't think of a better reason to believe in the "perpetual virginity" of Mary other than that sex is dirty, you'd do better not to engage in any apologetics at all.

36 posted on 08/15/2007 6:10:26 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Som tasim `aleykha melekh, 'asher yivchar HaShem 'Eloqeykha bo . . . .)
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To: Charles07

So . . . do you believe in evolution now? That seems to be the dominant belief within the “unchanged since antiquity” church.


37 posted on 08/15/2007 6:15:13 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Som tasim `aleykha melekh, 'asher yivchar HaShem 'Eloqeykha bo . . . .)
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To: tiki
tiki, you must be female!

Gals seem to remember events more by what was worn than what was happening. :)

38 posted on 08/15/2007 6:56:56 PM PDT by suzyjaruki (Why?)
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To: Campion
I don't believe you ever answered me before when I asked you if a "once saved always saved" Christian who became a believing Catholic is still saved. Are they?

Gotta be a trick question since I can't imagine anyone getting saved and then joining the Catholic church...

But anyway, not even your church can take a child of God out of Jesus' hands...

39 posted on 08/16/2007 6:10:29 AM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Might I recomend a book?

It clears up most confusion regarding that particular “issue”.

Isaiah. :)


40 posted on 08/16/2007 10:02:12 AM PDT by Charles07
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Micro or macro, con Creator or sans Creator, with scientific materialism or without, with philosophical reasoning or without, with physical observations or without?

;)


41 posted on 08/16/2007 10:02:13 AM PDT by Charles07
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To: ears_to_hear

Hmph.

I just noticed this:

“But if God had intended to save him, he would have understood the actual meaning of the words of Christ and he would have known they, like most of the teachings of Christ were hidden from the unsaved and not literal.”

You must believe in predestination.

The above statement is supported nowhere in Scripture; if anything, it shows the opposite.

Moreover, God gave us free will. If we were not free to choose then I propose the following:

“God is immoral, Jesus was a liar and Christianity is a false religion.”

And here is why:

God is not evil.

Evil is the absence of obedience to God.

Free will is a choice to obey or not obey

Man chose evil.

So it follows that if there is no free will, then we are all created puppets of God, and God is evil.

Our Lord came for the sinners, Brother.


42 posted on 08/16/2007 10:52:19 AM PDT by Charles07
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To: ears_to_hear; Campion

“...like most of the teachings of Christ were hidden from the unsaved and not literal”

As campion says in post #22: “gnostisism alert”

To speak of “hidden knowledge” being understood only by some is the heresy of gnosticism.


43 posted on 08/16/2007 11:05:15 AM PDT by Running On Empty (The three sorriest words: "It's too late")
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To: Iscool
Gotta be a trick question since I can't imagine anyone getting saved and then joining the Catholic church

You need to expand your imagination, then. Google "Mark Brumley", "Carl Olson Catholic", and "David Currie Catholic" for starters.

44 posted on 08/16/2007 11:08:51 AM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Charles07
“It’s also quite maddening to read these Protestant converts boasting of the “unity” of the Catholic Church. Never mind that the spectrum of beliefs within the “one true unchanging church” is as great as that among Protestant denominations. As long as everyone belongs to the same organization and recites the same words (which each interprets differently) then everything is just hunky-dory.”

You are certainly entitled to your opinion...

The Catholics who do not believe/obey every doctrine taught (de Fide) have effectively excommunicated themselves.

“Cafeteria” ones included.

“The Catholic Church, if it is hated by the “world,” is not hated nearly as much as Fundamentalist Protestants are. In fact, the intellectualism of the Catholic Church means it actually enjoys much respect from the world.”

Again, you are certainly entitled to your opinion; you may attempt to “document” this, but I doubt that anything of any substance will be presented.

45 posted on 08/16/2007 11:10:43 AM PDT by Charles07
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To: Charles07

Are you replying to Zionist Conspirator?


46 posted on 08/16/2007 11:16:10 AM PDT by Running On Empty (The three sorriest words: "It's too late")
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To: Running On Empty

Yes, sorry. :)


47 posted on 08/16/2007 11:23:56 AM PDT by Charles07
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To: Charles07
Might I recomend a book?

It clears up most confusion regarding that particular “issue”.

Isaiah. :)

So . . . does Isaiah teach evolution, or that sex is dirty?

48 posted on 08/16/2007 11:52:46 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Som tasim `aleykha melekh, 'asher yivchar HaShem 'Eloqeykha bo . . . .)
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To: Iscool; Campion
Gotta be a trick question since I can't imagine anyone getting saved and then joining the Catholic church...

I am a former Southern Baptist who accepted Jesus Christ as my Personal Lord and Savior. I made my profession before the congregation. I was then Baptized (full immersion) and was proclaimed "saved" by the pastor.

I have since joined the Catholic Church. About 3 years ago on a thread this same issue was raised. I made this same statement and a number of the “OSAS” crowd proclaimed I was indeed saved. I thought their responses were rather amusing.

What do you say?

49 posted on 08/16/2007 12:24:15 PM PDT by pegleg
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To: Zionist Conspirator

It says neither. :)

Why not read it and find out what it does say. :)


50 posted on 08/16/2007 12:33:02 PM PDT by Charles07
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