Presbyterians [PC(USA)] eye ways they can save the denomination

chron.com ^ | EILEEN MCCLELLAND

[Gamecock]

The Rev. Dave Peterson got tired of watching members of his denomination vanish.

In 40 years, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) lost half its membership, dwindling from 4.2 million to 2.1 million. "It's amazing to me that we have paid so little attention to that drastic statistic," said Peterson, senior pastor of Memorial Drive Presbyterian Church of Houston.

In an effort to stop the bleeding, Peterson has joined half a dozen other clergy to plan the second Presbyterian Global Fellowship Annual Conference next week in Houston. Organizers expect 800 people to attend, and although the focus is on the Presbyterian Church, everyone, lay or clergy, Presbyterian or not, is welcome.

The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), like other mainline denominations, has been roiled by bitter debates between gay-rights liberals and conservatives who champion traditional morality and sexual ethics. The issue has been the ordination of gay, lesbian and transgendered clergy, Peterson said. Such battles have raged for 25 years.

In addition, entire Presbyterian Church congregations — as many as 60 to 100 of a total 12,000 — are on the verge of jumping ship to go it alone or join other denominations.

"There's a dissatisfaction, a general malaise about the issues, and there's no real leadership moving us forward," Peterson said.

Although Peterson and his colleagues on the conservative side of the issues technically won many of the battles, he began to feel that such victories were beside the point, the point being preservation of the church itself.

"We began to wonder what it would look like to begin to propose to the whole denomination another kind of vision to propel it into the 21st century," he said.

The goal is to turn the church's focus outward, a goal relevant to anyone interested in the future of mainline denominations, he said.

This year's conference theme is "Inside-Out," derived from a comment made during the 2006 conference about the need to be inwardly strong and outwardly focused. The key concept is becoming a "missional" church, Peterson said, which doesn't necessarily mean sending out missionaries.

"For a long time, a kind of basic definition of the role of the church has been to provide religious services to its members," he said. "Most mainline churches have become quite ingrown. The missional church is the church that is more outwardly focused."

Keynote speaker Michael Frost, founding director of the Centre for Evangelism and Global Mission at Morling Theological College in Sydney, Australia, says the church's mission can be manifest in sharing the Gospel, planting churches, feeding the hungry and agitating against injustice.

But the concept is larger than specific activities, he says.

"It is the outward impulse of God's people. Above and beyond evangelism or social justice, it is the irresistible propulsion of the Spirit that sends his people out to declare the lordship of Jesus in all and over all. Missional churches understand that this sending impulse infuses all of church life."

Conventional churches that make worship the organizing principle see evangelism as recruiting new people to attend worship services, he said.

"Missional churches ... worship like crazy because they see God's lordship over all of life," he said. "They disciple each other in order to be better missionaries. Mission is the spark, the catalyzing energy, that makes sense of everything the church was intended to be."

One way for a missional church to put its goals into action is in the fight for justice, said Larry Martin, senior vice president of education for the International Justice Mission and a conference speaker. He educates church members across denomination lines as well as secular philanthropists.

The IJM fights slavery, sexual abuse and injustices against prisoners around the world.

"We like to ask Christians if we're passionate about the same things that matter to our God," Martin said. "Do our hearts beat fast about the same things that make God's heart beat fast?

"When we read the Scriptures, we know that when Jesus came and walked among men, most religious people of his day didn't care about the same things that he cared about. He admonished them to care about justice, mercy and faith. We challenge the church to see if they still care about these same things. ... God is passionate about justice. He hates injustice and wants it to stop."

Martin and Gary Haugen, president of IJM, will talk about what churches can do to help rescue an estimated 27 million people living in slavery and 1 million children forced into prostitution each year.

"What is really the 'aha' moment for the church is that this work can actually be done," Martin said. ... When God gives us these visions for ministry, evangelism or mercy, or doing justice, he doesn't give us these visions without giving us resources. He's not that kind of God that plays with his people in that way."

IJM has rescued people living in slavery, forced prostitution and prison, helped with aftercare and brought their perpetrators to justice, Martin said.

He gave the example of a South Asian girl who had been sold into slavery when she was 7 to raise $35 so her family could pay a doctor to save her mother's life. For three years she rolled cigarettes by hand for 70 cents a week, but couldn't pay off the debt because of mounting interest.

IJM documented her case and 10 others, bringing them to a judge in the girl's country, which Martin would not identify for security reasons. The 11 were rescued, along with 494 with the judge's help, he said.

"It can seem daunting when you think there are 27 million slaves," Martin said. "You think, 'What can I do about that?' But you can change the world for one person. We have lots of ways for people as individuals to be involved."

[Gamecock]

GRPL Ping.

The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), like other mainline denominations, has been roiled by bitter debates between gay-rights liberals and conservatives who champion traditional morality and sexual ethics. The issue has been the ordination of gay, lesbian and transgendered clergy, Peterson said. Such battles have raged for 25 years.

I am convinced the issue is not gays, but the liberal view of Scripture. Machen saw this coming back in 1923 when he wrote Christianity and Liberalism.

You do away with the innerrancy of scripture and such nonsense follows.

No, the ordination of gays is not the disease, but the symptom.

[Gamecock]

Once again parody foresees real life!

Presb. Church USA launches ambitious plan to lose only 5% of members

[SampleMan]

If they are looking for a gimmick that a lot of religious people like, they could try the reintroduction of God into their church.

[fkabuckeyesrule]

****Presbyterian Global Fellowship Annual Conference****

My church is involved in this. I gather it's supposed to be a more moderate point of view with an emphasis on evangelism.

[zerosix]

What in the world can the PCUSA "evangelize" that most of the serving clergy DO NOT accept? That Jesus, is God, born of a virgin, suffered and died for the salvation of the world, rose again and lives today?

The clergy in my own congregation admitted to me that they really did not accept much of the Bible, so I left after more than 30 years.

I had felt that the preaching was always about doing "good works" which is all well and good and we should do that as we follow Christ.

The name of Jesus was mentioned only in passing and never emphasized unless it was Christmas or Easter but the rest of the year, God or other good men and women, oh and yes, how women should be respected with the sole decision as to the life and death of her unborn baby, and "God loves gays too."

[TonyRo76]

» PC(USA) ... ways they can save the denomination

Well, they could always go back to preaching the Bible as inerrant and authoritative; teach salvation in Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone; maybe even do something crazy like reaffirm the Westminster Catechism and dump the silly 1967 "confession"...

Just some ideas, I dunno...

;)

[TonyRo76]

» Machen saw this coming back in 1923 when he wrote Christianity and Liberalism.

J.G. Machen was not only a brilliant thinker and great saint, but also a modern-day prophet!

[madprof98]

Keynote speaker Michael Frost, founding director of the Centre for Evangelism and Global Mission at Morling Theological College in Sydney, Australia, says the church's mission can be manifest in sharing the Gospel, planting churches, feeding the hungry and agitating against injustice.

. . . and, of course, for more sexual freedom.

[FormerACLUmember]

Sorry, but the Presbyterians are in an irreversible downspin (outside of the devout Korean Presbyterians).

They turned themselves over to the organized Gay Agenda types, the democrat party, moral relativists, and Marxists.

The once proud Presbyterian Church in America is soon to be a minor footnote in history.

[VOA]

“In 40 years, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) lost half its membership,
dwindling from 4.2 million to 2.1 million.”

I’m not any sort of Presbyterian...but I suspect some of the missing
2.1 million went “That-a-way”...over to the more conservative
PCA (Presbyterian Church in America), URLs below.

Even radio show host Hugh Hewitt occassionally does a sheepish
apology (NOT an apologia) for some of the NUTTY things the lead dogs
of the PCUSA say/do. Like going pro-Palestinian/Anti-Israel.

PCA: Presbyterian Church In America
http://www.pcanet.org/

Coral Ridge Ministries (D. James Kennedy)
http://www.coralridge.org/

Knox Seminary
http://www.knoxseminary.org/

[Gamecock]

The once proud Presbyterian Church in America is soon to be a minor footnote in history.

? The once proud PCA? Are you sure you don't mean the PC(USA)? The PCA holds to Scripture and is considered to be one of the fastest growing denominations in the country...

[FormerACLUmember]

? The once proud PCA? Are you sure you don't mean the PC(USA)? The PCA holds to Scripture and is considered to be one of the fastest growing denominations in the country...

Sorry, I meant the PC(USA), NOT the PCA.

[ReformedBeckite]

You do away with the innerrancy of scripture and such nonsense follows.

But do they really believe that, that the Bible has errors, and if so what kind of errors do they think the Bible has. Even some good reform theologians believe a few verses might have been added to the Bible, but they still believe the Bible to be innerrant. But even those verses are not the issue in most theological debates, I think we as Christians need to be a little bit more specific on the issue of what they do believe as far as interruption of the scriptures and what they believe in the Bible other then just saying they don't believe in the innerrancy of the scripture. I think only then can we debate them and have an honest open theological discussions with them in hopes of convincing them there is a better theological interruption of the scripture then what they believe.

Again what specifically is it that they don't believe is Biblical if that answer can be given in a short answer or is it a more complicated issue. Maybe I need to read the source you cited

[silverleaf]

Just reading the headline but- LOL!

[topcat54]

No, the ordination of gays is not the disease, but the symptom.

As was the ordination of women several decades ago. This is nothing new, just finally coming to a head.

[joebuck]

I saw the word “justice” in there more times than you’d see in a Rodney King story. It has achieved “buzz-word” status among liberal pastors and denominations and I have no idea what it means. Is it synonymous with rigteousness? Or is there some kind of egalitarian vibe going on there?

[Terabitten]

Number of times “Mission” or “missional” is used in the original article: eleven.

Number of times “Jesus” is used: two.

Any questions?

[kaehurowing]

This is pretty much whistling as you walk past the graveyard.

[kaehurowing]

The problem is that Jesus is not about “justice” (in the worldly sense), He is about mercy and grace.

Islam is about “justice,” and you see the results, mainly a religious system based on fear, punishment and retribution.

Any time you hear a church keep on talking about “justice,” especially when it ignores the rest of the Gospel, that’s a big warning that you’re in a church that has lost its way.

[marshmallow]

You do away with the innerrancy of scripture and such nonsense follows.

I'd be surprised if PCUSA clergy would not happily sign off on a statement declaring the inerrancy of Scripture. That is not the problem.

The problem is how "inerrant" Scripture should be interpreted and understood.

"Sola Scriptura" is a superficial cliche which glosses over the real problems involved with understanding the true meaning of the sacred texts.

[RobbyS]

The decline of the “mainstream: churches can be traced back a hundred and fifty years.The liberal view of Scripture was the reason why the Darwinian movement had such impact on the educated classes at the time. German biblical scholarship and philosophy had so penetrated clerical thinking that traditional religion had few able defenders.

[BibChr]

Put one way:

Defrocking J. Gresham Machen was the PCUSA’s jump-the-shark moment.

Put another:

The PCUSA defrocked Machen — then went to work proving him right in everything he’d said.

[ReformedBeckite]

This is pretty much whistling as you walk past the graveyard.

kind of reminds me of some words to some song I heard a long time ago with my own change at the end.

"Nothing but the dead and dieing back in my hometown PCUSA."

[Gamecock]

WHEW!

I’m PCA and thought I missed something!

[Gamecock]

I would recommend starting with reading the Machen book linked in post two.

I think each chapter stands alone and is an hugh (sorry, I couldn’t resist) indictment not only against the PC(USA), but the ELCA and the UMC as well.

[Gamecock]

Reading Machen has rocked my world.

I have The Origin of Paul's Religion sitting in my cue waiting to be read. I thin I will get to it in October when the days here in Germany get shorter.....

[hinckley buzzard]

Any time you hear a church keep on talking about “justice,” especially when it ignores the rest of the Gospel, that’s a big warning that you’re in a church that has lost its way

An acute observer many years ago noted that all over the world, the hair on the back of peoples' necks stands up when Christians begin to rant about "justice."

[AnalogReigns]

You do away with the innerrancy of scripture and such nonsense follows.

No, the ordination of gays is not the disease, but the symptom.

Verily, verily!!

I have an evangelical relative recently ordained in the PCUSA. Why one would want the approval of a denominational leadership dominated by apostates, I just do not understand.

[AnalogReigns]

I'd be surprised if PCUSA clergy would not happily sign off on a statement declaring the inerrancy of Scripture.

You really don't know very much about PCUSA clergy, do you?

[AnalogReigns]

I can’t speak for Gamecock, but I can say that, starting with a scholar named Schlieirmacher 200 years ago, who was raised amidst good Lutheran Pietists, a movement started which tried to reconcile European skepticism with Christianity. The first thing to go was the idea that the Holy Spirit inspired and protected Holy Scripture. This is what is meant by a rejection of inerrancy.

There are “liberal” theological liberals, and “conservative” theological liberals. Both will not see the Bible as the final authority...and may come up on different points differently. For example, in ethics, a “conservative” person who is theologically liberal (that is rejects scripture as the final word on issues) may reject homosexuality as acceptable...just because science and evolution traditionally have frowned on that lifestyle as counterproductive to the expansion of the species. The verses in Genesis on Sodom, or in Leviticus specifically condemning such behavior they might find a 2ndary argument, something to agree with, but not what is convincing.

However, such a person who is “theologically liberal” is rare today. Most liberals will go with the socieatal flow, which says homosexuality is just fine...a lovely alternative lifestyle. Such would outright reject the Genesis story of Sodom (or reinterpret it for the silly minds who care about the bible to be just about hospitality) as well as Leviticus Ch. 19 as just wrong, and in the New Testament, St. Paul, well, he just had issues...so they say.

The Bible, they would both say, is just a book—even if it does have historic importance, God can’t be limited by a book, can He? Did Jesus rise again literally? Maybe, but that’s not important, what’s important is has he risen in your heart? Did Mary conceieve Jesus by the Holy Spirit, as the bible says? Of course not...people just aren’t born that way...it’s a anti-feminist myth added just to gain Gentile support, and we’re so much more sophisticated than to believe that today. These are issues which typical theological liberals, having cut the cord to biblical inerrancy, claim.

So you see once one rejects the Bible as the bottom line...there’s a variety of places where you may end up. The kind of folks running the PCUSA, or the Episcopal, or the Lutheran, or the Methodist denominations now, sound very religious, but really reject the final, bottom-line authority of the bible. Of course they agree on some points with it—and can sound very pious, but their own minds are the final authorities, and they show by this they don’t really know God, and have never fully trusted in Jesus Christ as their Savior (since they won’t have Him, in His word, as Lord).

The full trustworthiness of the Bible is something only real Christians understand, and those who don’t trust it, and teach other to doubt it too, show themselves as false Christians.

Grace and Peace!

[marshmallow]

You really don't know very much about PCUSA clergy, do you?

It's the alphabet soup that confuses me. So many letters...PCA, PCUSA....who can keep track?

Seriously though, it's rare to hear of even the biggest apostates flat out rejecting the Bible as the inspired word of God. It's far more common for them to give lip service to the idea but then to interpret the Scriptures in ways which suit or are convenient. How many times have you heard "what Jesus really means here is....."

Before you dump on them, you ought to consider the idea that what they're doing is really nothing more than a natural progression of the whole Protestant ethos of private and personal interpretation of Scripture. Once you make Scripture your personal play thing on whose meaning no man may over rule you, and denied that it is the possession of the Church which interprets it authentically, you've opened the door to subjectivism, and made truth synonymous with your own ideas. Don't be surprised when this leads to certain groups and individuals running with it to ridiculous places.

[PAR35]

I’ll demand a retraction for your slander against the Presbyterian Church in America by linking them to this PCUSA story.

[AnalogReigns]

what they're doing is really nothing more than a natural progression of the whole Protestant ethos of private and personal interpretation of Scripture. Once you make Scripture your personal play thing on whose meaning no man may over rule you, and denied that it is the possession of the Church which interprets it authentically, you've opened the door to subjectivism, and made truth synonymous with your own ideas. Don't be surprised when this leads to certain groups and individuals running with it to ridiculous places.

Modern American protestants do tend to make the Bible into a personal play thing, I'll agree, on a tentative basis. However classical Evangelical (the original word taken by the 16th Century Reformers and followers) Christianity does not advocate the "private interpretation" which those beholden to the Bishop of Rome accuse them of. From the beginnings of the Reformation in the 1520s for about 100 years several confessions were written, usually for regional or national churches, by the doctors of those churches. What's remarkable about the Evangelical creeds & covenants is the amount of uniformity. Devout scholars from all over the European continent, speaking various languages, when they read the scriptures in the original Greek, not in a 1000 year old Latin translation like Rome used, came to 98% of the same doctrinal conclusions.

Also, in terms of numbers of people, there were very few Evangelical denominations--mostly they were, like the Eastern Orthodox churches, divided on national lines. What sparked denominationalism was not Luther, rather it was RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. When and where governments granted religious tolerance (rare, among both Catholic and Evangelicals in the 16th and 17th Centuries--and entirely absent in the Roman Catholic centuries before...), individuals developed their own Christian bodies since they weren't threatened with being burned to death, as had been standard Roman Catholic practice before then.

What I'm saying is don't blame whom you call Protestants for "private interprestation," or multitudes of denominations, blame the religious freedom they eventually brought--as it's religious freedom which brings with it various voluntary denominations, not a failure to bow to what the Pope tells you the bible says....

Show me too today, Evangelical/Protestant denonominations which are staying true to scriptural authority (this means NOT the mainline denominations) and I will show you HUGE agreement on what scripture says. This is why you have a large non-denominational church movement today--as evangelical Protestants have so much in agreement, denominational names have become less and less important. A typical non-denominational bible believeing church will have teachings 98% in common with say a PCA (evangelical, non-mainline Presbyterian) or Southern Baptist or Missouri Synod Lutheran, or Nazarene or.... Yes, members get all excited about that 2% which they disagree about--however, all in all, among bible believing evangelicals, there is a lot more uniformity of belief than amidst communing Roman Catholics.

To my mind and heart, this is clear evidence that the gates of hell are not prevailing against Christ' Church, encompassing peoples from many different denominations.

As to mainline, PCUSA pastors giving lip service to the bible--All people who claim to be Christians give some nod to the bible, even if they put their scholars, or their curia in a position above the bible. Yes Rome has been very culturally conservative--but just let a theologically liberal pope in, and that could all change in a very short time. Vatican II comes to mind....

Theological liberalm in the mainline denominations in an important way is making them more like Roman Catholicism--in that instead of relying on common-sense readings/interpretation of the scripture, they come up with esoteric, even scholastic, highbrow interpretations which common people just reading their bible, don't understand. This is why folks, with the religious freedom we have, are voting with their feet--and the mainline PCUSA Presbyterian church is 1/2 the size that it was 30 years ago. If one can't prove one's assertions by scripture and common sense, to paraphrase Luther facing death at Worms, your church is not my church, or Christ' church.

[HarleyD]

The goal is to turn the church's focus outward, a goal relevant to anyone interested in the future of mainline denominations, he said.

Interesting article. The failing is that the church's focus IS outwardly, accepting the world's values. We can only move forward if God so ordains and He's not going to move us forward unless we are obedient to His word and submissive to His will. Preaching social reform does nothing to change the hearts.

[Gamecock]

Bravo.