Posted on 08/31/2007 10:32:57 AM PDT by stfassisi
The What and Why of Mortification by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
The best description of mortification was given by Our Lord. He said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me” (Mat 16:24).
Mortification, therefore, is self-denial. And self-denial is doing the will of God, even when the Divine will crosses at right angles to our will. Mortification is the imitation of Christ in the surrender of what we naturally like in order to please God.
Self-Denial to Make Up for Past Sins
There is one big difference, however, between our mortification and the self-denial that Christ practiced in doing the will of His Father. We are sinners who must practice mortification to make up in greater generosity to God for our failure to love Him as we should have in the past. We are sinners who must expiate our sinful self-indulgence by giving up creatures we might otherwise lawfully enjoy.
More than Important
Mortification is not only important, it is necessary. Why?
Because only mortified persons are willing to surrender to God the most precious possession they have, namely their own self-will.
Only mortified persons are willing to love God in the patient endurance of whatever crosses He sends them.
Only mortified persons are living in the real world where sins are so widespread and where sinners need the grace of repentance to be gained by the prayerful penance of the friends of God.
Patience and Faithfulness
We can practice mortification by giving up some delicacy in food or drink, or some pleasure that we could legitimately have. But we also practice mortification every time we patiently accept whatever trial or pain He sends us, and every time we faithfully carry out whatever His mysterious providence commands of us.
It is this second kind of mortification that Jesus had in mind when He told us that “anyone who loses his life for my sake, will find it” (Mat. 16:25).
The Key to Heaven
If we are willing to mortify (literally “cause death to”) our self-will in this world, we shall gain eternal life in the world to come. On these terms, only mortified people will enter Heaven
It is this second kind of mortification that Jesus had in mind when He told us that “anyone who loses his life for my sake, will find it” (Mat. 16:25).
Ping!
How many works are enough?
“If we are willing to mortify (literally “cause death to”) our self-will in this world, we shall gain eternal life in the world to come. On these terms, only mortified people will enter Heaven”
Theosis is the result of thoroughly dying to the self so that one’s entire being is focused solely on God.
“Those who aim at ascending with the body to Heaven, indeed need violence and constant suffering, especially in the early stages of their renunciation, until our pleasure-loving dispositions and unfeeling hearts attain to love of God and chastity by manifest sorrow.” +John Klimacus
“How many works are enough?”
Hello, Dear Sister.How is your health these days?
I pray it is better!
If we completely die to self then our works are not our own,but inspired by Christ working in us to fulfill His will. Thus by denying ourself,these works are a result of our will coming into line with Christ’s will.
Any works that we do expecting God to grant us a reward or to repay us are worthless and self serving
I wish you a Blessed day!
Agreed!This is certainly our goal and the only way we can truly be at peace.
Hope all is well with you and your family?
I wish you a Blessed day!
When we decide suddenly to give up some very licit pleasure, we surprise the demon who sits on our shoulders and whispers in our ears and he may fall off for a spell. Puts a smile on the face of our guardian angel.
“How many works are enough?”
Prayer and fasting go hand in hand when requesting God’s aid, or joining the Cross of Christ in imitation. It is very common to pray and fast for those suffering saints in the Islamic countries like Pakistan and Iraq.
I seem to be getting better, but won't know if the change in chemo (completed first course & was started on a different course) is effective for a couple of weeks. Thanx for asking.
If we completely die to self then our works are not our own,but inspired by Christ working in us to fulfill His will. Thus by denying ourself,these works are a result of our will coming into line with Christ’s will.
I can embrace that belief.
Any works that we do expecting God to grant us a reward or to repay us are worthless and self serving
I can't see how the second last & last sentences in the article "If we are willing to mortify (literally “cause death to”) our self-will in this world, we shall gain eternal life in the world to come. On these terms, only mortified people will enter Heaven." can be squared with what you're saying.
I wish you a Blessed day!
Thanx & wishing you a Blessed day as well.
True enough, but the article spoke of gaining eternal life by it.
“True enough, but the article spoke of gaining eternal life by it.”
Being human with a human mind and body and inclination we have a tendency toward using God’s creatures in ways that are sinful, it helps to discipline yourself by denying yourself.
You are less apt to misuse creatures and experiences, if you from time to time give them up or use them sparingly.
It is also well to join your terribly small sacrifice to the Cross as way of acknowledging your own small nature and the terrific magnitude of Jesus’ suffering incurred by Him due to our fallen natures and sinful acts and thoughts as the way to redeem us.
My belief is this: Any suffering, any inconvenience, or mortification is offered to our Lord with our thanks to Him for it. We thank Him for His gifts to us which are so many and so great, but we forget to thank Him for those things we dislike or cause us distress.
Along with going to Mass, spending an hour with Jesus in the Eucharist at Adoration, doing charity works, reading the Bible, reading the Fathers and spending time saying the rosary and other prayers and meditating on the Trinity and the life of Christ, using mortifications can help you grow in the spiritual life. It is one seamless thing. It isn’t something I do. It is what I am becoming.
Christ saves us, yes. But it isn’t cheap Grace. He suffered horribly. It isn’t earning heaven as much as telling Jesus I want to live in You.
Besides, I love Him enough to show Him I do.
The others can say this better than I. I’m a pretty poor example and not at all well versed in Theology. But I answered what you asked. And they can fill in the rest.
Right, but doing things that help you grow in the spiritual life are different than doing things with the expectation that you’ll gain eternal life by doing them.
You mean this phrase:
“”If we are willing to mortify (literally “cause death to”) our self-will in this world, we shall gain eternal life in the world to come. On these terms, only mortified people will enter Heaven.”
~ It means conforming our wills to God’s Will.
It sometimes takes quite a bit of discipline to do so. Mortification helps. Not acting on impulse is also mortification. One is more thoughtful of God.
Not to set too many examples, but there are those who have forgotten the cardinal sins like gluttony or avarice because they aren’t thinking. Small things like mortifying our taste buds, and denying that new car or sofa if it isn’t needed because we just want what we want, or the habitual resentment towards a relative and jealousy of a friend that offends charity can be the difference between eternal life and Judgment.
God assures our salvation, but it isn’t to be taken for granted. Many people just don’t think about that jealousy or bit of spitefulness. It goes over their heads.
By mortification, it often seems that there is a conduit opened whereby God illuminates the sins we aren’t even aware of many times. Show me Lord how to please You!
CS Lewis wrote of a man condemning himself at the very last moment of life because he couldn’t let of a concern smaller than a bluebottle (I suppose that is fly). What he meant I gather was a small thing, but still a thing God condemned.
Accepting Jesus into our lives is sometimes hard, sometimes easy. Some people struggle to understand that Christ is Lord and has redeemed us through the Cross.
Living Christ is difficult in this world. It isn’t cheap nor is it easy. It is easy to fall unless you are vigilant. Conforming you will to God’s comes through prayer and living in Christ and mortification of the body helps.
I wish I could explain it better. As I said, I’m not the best to do so.
Thomas a Kempis, Imitation of Christ is great inspiration and explains better than I ever could:
“WHEN a man desires a thing too much, he at once becomes ill at ease. A proud and avaricious man never rests, whereas he who is poor and humble of heart lives in a world of peace. An unmortified man is quickly tempted and overcome in small, trifling evils; his spirit is weak, in a measure carnal and inclined to sensual things; he can hardly abstain from earthly desires. Hence it makes him sad to forego them; he is quick to anger if reproved. Yet if he satisfies his desires, remorse of conscience overwhelms him because he followed his passions and they did not lead to the peace he sought.
True peace of heart, then, is found in resisting passions, not in satisfying them. There is no peace in the carnal man, in the man given to vain attractions, but there is peace in the fervent and spiritual man.”
http://www.catholicfirst.com/thefaith/catholicclassics/tkempis/iofchrist.cfm
The whole book online.
This introspective understanding of faith derives from those Churches that have endured for thousands ... yes, thousands ... of years. During that time, their understanding of faith has developed through the graces of the Holy Spirit. This depth of faith is unknown to Evangelicals and Fundamentalists who see worship in quoting Scripture and singing contemporary hymns of praise. They are still at the elementary stages of developing a relationship with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
It’s easy to rage at the driver who just cut you off and gave you the single digit salute.
It is easy to yell at the clerk when you are in a hurry to get the screaming kids at your knees home as they grab the candy from the racks and the price of the kidney beans you grabbed isn’t marked.
Or the check you just wrote is refused
Or that second candy bar beacons
Or that unbelievably handsome guy who makes your knees knock at the office is inviting you to lunch, just lunch and you are married
Or you want to scream at your spouse because he overdrew the account (again)
It takes discipline to live. It takes a lot to tame this body, mind and soul. Prayer is absolute, but remember this: Satan is right there at every step until you die.
God forgives a repentent heart. But if I love Him, I don’t want to hurt Him. Taming our natures and conforming our will to His is a good way to avoid that.
“”If we are willing to mortify (literally “cause death to”) our self-will in this world, we shall gain eternal life in the world to come. On these terms, only mortified people will enter Heaven.”
Yes, that is the one!
~ It means conforming our wills to God’s Will.
Doing things to conform our wills to God's will are good & should be done. Doing them with the expectation that they'll help gain salvation discounts the value in doing them. That would be doing them for self, not for God. Either do them because you believe they please God or don't, but if you do them with the expectation of reward, any reward, your reward will be of an earthly nature. Whether it is in the form of satisfaction (pride in your ability to resist things), relief of guilt or something else, any reward aspect to them turns them to yourself & away from God.
Not to set too many examples, but there are those who have forgotten the cardinal sins like gluttony or avarice because they aren’t thinking. Small things like mortifying our taste buds, and denying that new car or sofa if it isn’t needed because we just want what we want, or the habitual resentment towards a relative and jealousy of a friend that offends charity can be the difference between eternal life and Judgment.
There isn't anything that I could do that can merit the gift of salvation, because no matter how much I'm able to do it can never be enough! Even if I was able to become totally dead to myself, I would not deserve eternal life.
God assures our salvation, but it isn’t to be taken for granted.
I'm not taking anything for granted, trust me.
Many people just don’t think about that jealousy or bit of spitefulness. It goes over their heads.
By mortification, it often seems that there is a conduit opened whereby God illuminates the sins we aren’t even aware of many times. Show me Lord how to please You!
I get that. I honestly do.
CS Lewis wrote of a man condemning himself at the very last moment of life because he couldn’t let of a concern smaller than a bluebottle (I suppose that is fly). What he meant I gather was a small thing, but still a thing God condemned.
If my salvation depends on me, I'm lost!
This has always helped me understand the important conceptsof death to self:
“DYING TO SELF”
When you are forgotten or neglected, or purposely set at naught and you don’t sting and hurt with the insult but your heart is happy being counted worthy to suffer for Christ....
That is dying to self.
When your good is evil spoken of, when your wishes are crossed, your advice disregarded, your opinion ridiculed and you refuse to let anger rise in your heart, or even defend yourself, but take it all in patient, loving silence....
That is dying to self.
When you lovingly and patiently bear any disorder, any irregularity, or annoyance, when you stand face-to-face with waste, folly, extravagance,
spiritual insensibility and endure it as Jesus endured....
That is dying to self.
When you are content with any food, any offering, any climate, any society, any raiment, any interruption by the will of God....
That is dying to self.
When you never care to refer to yourself in conversation or to record your own good words or itch after commendations, when you can truly love to be unknown....
That is dying to self.
When you can see your brother prosper and have his needs met and can honestly rejoice with him in spirit and feel no envy or question God while your own needs are far greater and in desperate circumstances....
That is dying to self.
When you can receive correction and reproof from one of less stature than yourself and can humbly submit inwardly as well as outwardly, finding
no rebellion or resentment rising up within your heart....
That is dying to self.
Are you dead yet? In these last days, the Spirit would bring us to the cross. (Philippians 3:10)
“Doing them with the expectation that they’ll help gain salvation discounts the value in doing them”
We do them in love! I don’t mortify myself to gain eternal life, I do so to conform my will. If I conform my will I become more one with Christ. If I become more one with Christ, I will gain eternal life.
Conversely, if I do nothing to conform my will to Christ Jesus’ what love is there and how am I to overcome the world?
Think of motification as great sword and shield. It is a weapon against Satan’s wiles. Believe me, when I deny myself something, my will is strengthened and when my will is strengthened I have the ability God gives me to ignore the promptings and whispers and temptations that are always part of our lives on earth.
It is The World we are overcoming by this.
“There isn’t anything that I could do that can merit the gift of salvation, because no matter how much I’m able to do it can never be enough! Even if I was able to become totally dead to myself, I would not deserve eternal life.”
You are fallen as are all of us and deserve nothing as I deserve nothing and can do nothing to lift myself above this world. Christ has redeemed us.
“God assures our salvation, but it isn’t to be taken for granted.
I’m not taking anything for granted, trust me.”
I’d glad because despite Christ redeeming us, we can even if we believe Jesus is Lord lose that redemption by our own will, by our own choice.
“If my salvation depends on me, I’m lost!”
Then join that statement with Christ on the Cross. Simply by offering what you wrote from your heart to Jesus is a mortification. Your salvation is of God. You just have to pick up the cross and follow Christ.
It seems so very hard in the beginning, and in many ways never becomes easier, but it does become easier to bear because of the love we bear our Lord, Jesus.
It is our wills that we have to conform to God. As I said, I love God and I reject The World. It doesn’t mean that I live a cave or reject others. I can live and work in the world and live with everyone because I reject the trappings of the world.
“This depth of faith is unknown to Evangelicals and Fundamentalists who see worship in quoting Scripture and singing contemporary hymns of praise. They are still at the elementary stages of developing a relationship with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.”
That is an amazing statement. What is it based on?
Ah, BD, I doubt I would have put it the way NYer did, but, well, can you accept, lets say, the story of +Mary of Egypt as a example of theosis, or accept as true this:
“I think that the body of those incorruptible men is not even subject to sickness any longer, because it has been rendered incorruptible; for by the flame of purity they have extinguished the flame. I think that even the food that is set before them they accept without any pleasure. For there is an underground stream that nourishes the root of a plant, and their souls too are sustained by a celestial fire.” ?
I honestly mean no disrespect, but perhaps the sort of ascesis or “mortification” as the Latins would have it, just isn’t something “for” Evangelicals or Fundamentalists, like Marian devotions aren’t. This is very very different stuff from what the West experiences in its individualistic culture and appears to me to be virtually antithetical to most forms of Protestantism.
O Jesus meek and humble of heart, Hear me.
From the desire of being esteemed, Deliver, me, Jesus.
From the desire of being loved, Deliver me, Jesus.
From the desire of being extolled, Deliver me, Jesus.
From the desire of being honored, Deliver me, Jesus.
From the desire of being praised, Deliver me, Jesus.
From the desire of being preferred to others, Deliver me Jesus.
From the desire of being consulted, Deliver me, Jesus.
From the desire of being approved, Deliver me, Jesus.
From the fear of being humiliated, Deliver me, Jesus.
From the fear of being despised, Deliver me, Jesus.
From the fear of suffering rebukes, Deliver me, Jesus.
From the fear of being calumniated, Deliver, me, Jesus.
From the fear of being forgotten, Deliver me, Jesus.
From the fear of being ridiculed, Deliver me, Jesus.
From the fear of being wronged, Deliver me, Jesus.
From the fear of being suspected, Deliver me, Jesus.
That others may be loved more than I, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may be esteemed more than I, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it.
That in the opinion of the world, others may increase, and I may decrease,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may be chosen and I set aside, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may be praised and I unnoticed, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may be preferred to me in everything, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may become holier than I, provided that I become as holy as I should,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
You might all be quite surprised at the numbers of Protestants/Fundamentalists who run hard after Christ and embrace passionate and intimate relationship with Him. I think I would be less judgmental on a public forum such as this - especially as we discuss the mortification of the flesh.
May we, here, all agree to love self much less and Jesus more deeply...and leave our brothers and sisters to work out their own salvation without criticism or comment
You might all be quite surprised at the numbers of Protestants/Fundamentalists who run hard after Christ and embrace passionate and intimate relationship with Him. I think I would be less judgmental on a public forum such as this - especially as we discuss the mortification of the flesh.
May we, here, all agree to love self much less and Jesus more deeply...and leave our brothers and sisters to work out their own salvation without criticism or comment
I’d be surprised if any Western Protestants pursued Christ like this:
http://www.monachos.net/library/Mary_of_Egypt,_Complete_Life_by_Patriarch_Sophronius_of_Jerusalem
There are surprising numbers of Orthodox and even Latin Christians, however, who do very nearly what +Mary of Egypt did. I am not saying that makes Orthodox Christians better or holier Christians than others. As a group we are very bad people so likely need this sort of ascesis more than Westerners. I am honestly not judging; just observing that our ascetic practices and lives in The Church are different from those practiced by most Western Protestants.
“I am honestly not judging; just observing that our ascetic practices and lives in The Church are different from those practiced by most Western Protestants.”
You are clearly uninformed on the lives and spirituality of multitudes of true Protestant Christians
“This depth of faith is unknown to Evangelicals and Fundamentalists who see worship in quoting Scripture and singing contemporary hymns of praise. They are still at the elementary stages of developing a relationship with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.”
You would be hard pressed to make a more divisive, uninformed, unspiritual, narrow minded and outright incorrect statement than this one. The fact that it is found in a forum on dying to self is painfully ironic. How unlike Christ can you possibly be?
What I find instead has saddened me. You started this discussion - perhaps it should end in prayer as we all head off to deepen our relationship with Christ. Maybe the true answer to this quest for mortification is that we would love one another - simply, completely, honestly.
Nonsense...I don't see too many American Catholics giving away all they have and moving to Mozambique to live in a cave in the dessert to embrace starvation and thirst...
And quoting scripture is a negative??? Catholics quote their church fathers...We quote the words of God...Hmmm...
I'll stick with the scripture...
That's the difference between believing the Church, or believing God...
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
What a great verse...
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
We have mortified the deeds of the flesh thru the Holy Spirit as far as heaven is concerned...
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
It's a done deal...We are no longer bound by the sins of the flesh...
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
We are no longer the children of disobedience...We are of the adoption...
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Now, the instruction:
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Hope you don't mind the scripture...I just love reading and posting scripture...Especially this one...
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Apologies but you seem to have misinterpreted what I posted. It was not meant to be divisive; rather, it was simply a reflection on differences in development of worship. Perhaps I am wrong on this issue. The comment is based on what others have told me. What forms of contemplative and meditative prayer are encouraged by the Evangelical church?
“And quoting scripture is a negative???”
The Scripture is given. That we have Jesus’ Words is something deep within us.
Quoting Scripture is fine, but just saying I believe isn’t following. Living Christ is something entirely different.
Have a blessed holiday! I’m grilling pizzas!
This is an excellent site:
http://www.holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/markshea/sheavings/merit.asp
He gives a great understanding of the concept of the fruitfulness of living in Christ.
“And Evangelicals, when they aren’t worrying about Catholic doctrine, are perfectly at home with all this as a matter of lived experience. That’s why countless Evangelicals write books with titles like Faith is a Verb or admonish us to remember (as I was told in dozens of sermons) that “Faith is a muscle.” In short, classic Evangelical practice is essentially Catholic on this point. For it operates on the truth that your relationship with God, like a muscle, gets stronger as you exercise your faith in real and practical ways. Following St. John, both Catholics and Evangelicals believe that love, to be real, must be lived (1 John 4:20). Both (when they are not engaged in debate with each other) believe, like St. James, that faith without real deeds of love is dead (James 2:24-26). And both believe, following the Parable of the Talents and St. Paul, that the more you live out the grace of faith, the deeper and more vibrant it becomes (Matthew 25:21 and 23; 2 Corinthians 3:18). That, and nothing else, is what Trent means when it says that meritorious (or fruitful) works done under grace “truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and... the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory.” This is simply a fancy and nuanced Latin way of saying what St. Paul says in a simple Hebraic way: Sow to the Spirit, reap of the Spirit. Do good, reap good. Sow little, reap little. (Galatians 6:7-9; 2 Corinthians 9:6). For as Jesus says, we will be rewarded according to what we have done. Our actions will have real (and eternal) effects on us and others (Matthew 25:31-46).”
Isn’t it wonderful that some people have been given words as their charism?
A charism (plural: charismata. From the Greek, charis - grace; the divine influence on the receiver’s heart, and its reflection in his or her life.[1]) is a power, generally of a spiritual nature, believed to be a freely given gift by the grace of God.
“You are clearly uninformed on the lives and spirituality of multitudes of true Protestant Christians”
That may well be true. That said, one of the advantages of this forum is that it provides multiple opportunities to learn about the beliefs and praxis of others.
Why don’t you give us a comparison between modern Protestant ascetical practice and say that of Orthodox monastics, or perhaps between the liturgical practices of The Church in the East and West and non-liturgical Protestantism? I had heard that some non Orthodox, non Latin Christians, especially certain Lutherans and traditional Anglicans, were indeed engaging in forms of spirituality which are remarkably Orthodox.
“...I don’t see too many American Catholics giving away all they have and moving to Mozambique to live in a cave in the dessert to embrace starvation and thirst...”
You don’t have to do that. You can live in the US and embrace the concept of Christian poverty as a way of following Christ.
Our God is a God of the living.
We might sacrifice the ‘old man’, the ‘natural man’, our old self, to live a new life through faith. That faith also implies humility before God through faith in Christ, but not the mortification of our will. Our volition through faith in Christ is still very much alive through Him.
NYer This past week I returned from working with contemporary, Evangelical, Pentecostal believers in Cali and Bogota, Colombia. There were children from the Southern most states (called Departments) of Colombia who are preparing their lives for the very real possibility of being kidnapped and either killed or trained by guerillas to live a life in the jungle and to be forced into unspeakable practices. They were preparing their lives by learning how to memorize and meditate on the Scriptures, sing simple Scriptural worship songs that would fill their hearts and learn the discipline of daily, continual prayer.
One family of THREE came on a tiny motorbike across the Andes mountains to be in these meetings. They travelled for 15 hours through some of the most dangerous countryside in the world. A small backpack was filled with all they needed for the deep worship you so easily dismissed in them - a Bible, a small percussion instrument, a few articles of clothing and hungry hearts.
Need I tell you about the mother and daughter who travelled for NINE DAYS from Argentina? They were held up by a severe earthquake (it was on the international news) and only just made it. The encouragement for their journey was, again, the hunger in their hearts to learn how to worship in spirit and in truth.
By what means do you measure the worship of these precious souls? Do you REALLY want to force me to cite testimony after testimony of Pentecostal, Charismatic, Evangelical Christians who long for God’s presence with all their being?
You said that your comment is based on what OTHERS HAVE TOLD YOU.
Then you, Sir, or Madam, have been grossly misinformed. I travel constantly in Churches other than yours, (Last week, Colombia - next week Singapore and after that, Barbados) and I want to testify to you that millions of us are as hungry for God’s presence as you seem to be. I work among people who are familiar with the writings and prayer habits of Madame Guyon, Brother Lawrence, Fenelon, St. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Thomas a Kempis etc. I have an On-line school where we train young worship leaders from all around the world. The last class was on the subject of “Worship, Prayer and Meditation.”
But, we don’t have to bring out heroes of the faith who have long since passed away - I can take you to modern day Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Charismatics ( whatever you prefer to call us) who, today, practice lives of worship and prayer. They see miracles DAILY - even the raising of the dead and bring multitudes of souls into the Kingdom. What does it gain you if you spend hours in contemplative prayer, yet you cannot convince a lost soul of his need for intimacy with Christ?
Here, NYer, is the greatness of my Church tradition:
Acts 2: 44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,
45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
My apologies to you if I have misinterpreted what you posted. I came into this discussion with a longing to learn from you all on the mortification of the flesh and the secrets of contemplative prayer. What I found, instead, was an unfair criticism of the heroes (Believers) I have just been with.
“Why don’t you give us a comparison between modern Protestant ascetical practice and say that of Orthodox monastics, or perhaps between the liturgical practices of The Church in the East and West and non-liturgical Protestantism? I had heard that some non Orthodox, non Latin Christians, especially certain Lutherans and traditional Anglicans, were indeed engaging in forms of spirituality which are remarkably Orthodox.”
No comparison necessary, mate.
The folks I worship amongst engage in forms of spirituality which are remarkably BIBLICAL.
Col. 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
There seems to be some disdain for the non Orthodox, non Catholic worshipers among us. I would like to know how you folks in here measure the true spirituality of a worshiper. By what means have you determined that your orthodoxy and prayer lives have brought you closer to God than, say, a young Charismatic, Western boy who lifts his heart and hands in prayer and song before His Lord?
Like this one? No one on this thread has criticized you, or those to whom you have brought the good news.
Evangelization is hard work. It can also be very stressful, depending on the country and situation in which you find yourself. Since 90% of Columbia is Catholic, just who are you evangelizing?
“This introspective understanding of faith derives from those Churches that have endured for thousands ... yes, thousands ... of years. During that time, their understanding of faith has developed through the graces of the Holy Spirit. This depth of faith is unknown to Evangelicals and Fundamentalists who see worship in quoting Scripture and singing contemporary hymns of praise. They are still at the elementary stages of developing a relationship with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.”
I would appreciate it if you would let us all - especially the Evangelicals and Fundamentalists - know what you mean by it.
Also...the name of the country is C-O-L-O-M-B-I-A...nothing close to the city of COLUMBIA, South Carolina, or the University in New York
As for evangelizing, I didn’t say that I was evangelizing - you made that assumption. I was teaching principles of worship and prayer to the folks. However, even if 90% of Colombians are Catholic, that doesn’t mean that they are without need of the Gospel message. Many are Catholic in name only and have never made a personal choice to make Christ their Savior and Lord.
The more than 4 million Colombians who are not Catholic (namely those who are “still at the elementary stages of developing a relationship with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ”) are also in need of spiritual help. Some of their churches are packed full of 5000 to 50,000 passionate believers every Sunday. I am humbled by their devotion to Christ.
As practicing Catholics, C-O-L-O-M-B-I-A-N-S hear and receive the Gospel message each time they attend Mass. In fact, were they to attend daily Mass, they would hear more of the Gospel in a Catholic Church than in any Evangelical, Pentecostal or other non-Catholic Church. Freeper Salvation can corroborate that statement since she posts the Daily Mass Readings to the forum. You may want to consider joining her ping list.
Many are Catholic in name only and have never made a personal choice to make Christ their Savior and Lord.
Lapsed Catholics need to return to their faith and, as a caring christian, you should encourage them to do so. They chose Christ as their Savior on the day of their Baptism.
I have never been against the Catholic church - I came into this forum to learn from you all - something about the deeper life. I have found you to have little of it and your arguments are soundly unbecoming.
I have always loved the writings and prayer habits of Madame Guyon and Brother Lawrence and will continue to look to them for guidance in this matter...all the while I will rejoice in the wonderful privilege of serving Christ alongside great men, women and children of faith (many who are NOT Catholics) who worship God with all their hearts, souls and strength - go and argue with someone else NYer.
IOW, those who were not raised Roman Catholics should be encouraged to return to the church they came from, instead of having their "coming home" stories proclaimed. Taking any other position in light of your statement would be hypocrisy.
Let holy charity
mine outward vesture be
and lowliness become mine inner clothing.
True lowliness of heart
which takes the humbler part
and o’er it’s own shortcomings weeps with loathing.
You truly misunderstand me. As a concerned christian working in foreign lands that were converted to christianity long ago, those who have been baptized into the Catholic Church (Latin, Maronite, Melkite, Ukrainian, etc.) should be encouraged to return to their faith. That encouragement should include a strong recommendation that they spend more time reading scripture. When these countries were originally evangelized, the majority of the inhabitants were illiterate, hence Scripture was proclaimed to them orally in Church. These Catholic christians also have the Bread of life, the Holy Eucharist, which they can't receive in a Pentecostal or Evangelical or Fundamentalist Church.
I don't understand why missionaries are evangelizing in Christian countries; can you explain this to me? Would it not be more providential to bring the Word of God to the Muslims in the Middle East? In fact, missionaries could do this in Europe where the Muslim population is exploding. They are the ones who need to read Scripture.
No, I don't, as witnessed by this sentence of your response to me: "These Catholic christians also have the Bread of life, the Holy Eucharist, which they can't receive in a Pentecostal or Evangelical or Fundamentalist Church." Try selling your package without trying to put down the other guy's product. I'd have to think that the Bread of life wasn't getting the job done, else the fruit wouldn't have been low hanging enough to be picked off by another working in the plantation.
As a concerned christian working in foreign lands that were converted to christianity long ago, those who have been baptized into the Catholic Church (Latin, Maronite, Melkite, Ukrainian, etc.) should be encouraged to return to their faith. That encouragement should include a strong recommendation that they spend more time reading scripture.
The Catholic Church should be doing those things & it should be motivated by more than the possible loss of part of Her flock, though competition is an excellent motivator. Think it possible the Holy Spirit is offering a wake up call against complacency?
When these countries were originally evangelized, the majority of the inhabitants were illiterate, hence Scripture was proclaimed to them orally in Church.
The Catholic Church has never worried about stealing sheep from the folds of others, less they're on the losing end of it. When the Eastern Churches went their own way it was one of the primary things that widened the original gap.
I don't understand why missionaries are evangelizing in Christian countries; can you explain this to me?
They are, because the are called upon to do it, the same reason the Catholic Church has historically done it.
Would it not be more providential to bring the Word of God to the Muslims in the Middle East? In fact, missionaries could do this in Europe where the Muslim population is exploding. They are the ones who need to read Scripture.
Wouldn't you lay the same complaint if they were more active in France & Spain?
This is just one. There are so many Catholic Missions and Catholic Lay Missions around the world that it would take the better part of JimRob’s bandwidth to do them all.
But this is representative.
I have a vested interest in the Franciscans though!
http://www.catholicworldmission.org/site/pp.asp?c=9dJHJLPwB&b=10648
“Progress:
Today the Lay Missionaries project has grown to over 600 “Evangelizadores” or ETCs working in 58 dioceses. ETCs have trained and managed over 35,000 part-time Catechists, reaching to over 2,000,000 people with their leadership.
The ETCs work to help both young men and women hear the call of Christ and begin the path of vocational discernment, be it to the diocesan seminary, a religious congregation, or consecrated life in an apostolic movement. In recent years, the program has seen a very positive response in the number of vocations coming from the communities served by the Evangalizadores. From 2003-2005 the program has helped 350 youth towards some seminary or institute of the consecrated life.
2004 2005 2006
Diocesan priests 43 49 91
Religious priests 18 38 15
Religious life 16 36 31
Total of this period: 337 VOCATIONS
Evangelizadores Megamissions of 2007:
Lists of Countries visited: 4 (Mexico, Venezuela, Guatemala and El Salvador)
Number of towns visited: 2,840
Number of missionaries: 19,020
Number of priests: 238
Number of families: 8,467 (estimated number)
Number of ETCs participating: 319
Number of souls reached: 127,512
Number of participants at the opening: 8,500 aprox.
Number of participants in the closing mass: 5,000 aprox.
City with the most participants: Mexico City metropolitan area and Tuxtla Gutierrez zone (Chiapas)
The Problem
While Latin American countries include many of the largest Catholic populations in the world, its Constitutions and public life are among the most secular
Large populations and vast territorial expanse of the typical parish (some with as many as 20-30 chapels in remote villages)
Several different languages and dialects are spoken by the indigenous people
The many dialects makes personal ministry and Catechesis by the limited number of missionary priests exceedingly difficult
The Solution
Catholic World Mission’s Lay Missionaries or “Evangelizadores” are fully trained Catholic Catechists paid to work full-time for the Church under the direction of their parish priest and local bishop.
These lay people are not outsiders, but native to the parishes in which they work and fluent in the local dialect, making their Catholic witness tremendously powerful to their neighbors.
27 different dialects are spoken among our evangelizers and Catechists.
Their education and preparation includes five intensive weeks of study and prayer and continues with one-week semester updates.
This is also a great Catholic Mission site.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10375a.htm
The Catholic Church evangelized heathens - animists and the like. That should be the focus of your program, not stealing sheep from the neighbor's flock. There are still plenty of heathens who need to hear the good news. If christians would unite, we could get the job done. In fact, we could be an impenetrable force against Islam. Instead, there are Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Fundamentalists, etal in the Middle East evangelizing Maronite, Melkite, Chaldean Catholics. Pooling people means pooling resources.
BTW - do you know Kristine Franklin? She shares a similar story with you.
The jet made a careful descent between the three volcanoes that ring the sprawl of Guatemala City. It was April 19th, 1992. My husband, Marty, and I had reached the end of eight years of preparation to be Evangelical Protestant missionaries.We were finally here, excited and eager to settle in Guatemala. We knew our faith would be challenged and stretched, but we were more than ready for it because above all else, we desired to serve God with everything we could offer. Our new life as missionaries had just begun.
I didn't feel even a twinge of regret over what we'd left behind in the States: family, friends, a familiar language and culture, and amenities like clean water and good roads we Americans so often take for granted. In spite of the unknowns ahead, I knew we were being obedient, regardless of the cost. We were living smack in the middle of God's will, and it gave us a great feeling of security. We had given ourselves fully to bringing Christ's light to the darkness of this impoverished, Catholic country.
As the jet touched down onto the bumpy runway, tears welled in my eyes. "Thank you, Jesus," I whispered as I reached over to squeeze my husband's hand. Marty and I had come to the end of a long journey, but we were also beginning a new one. "Some day, Lord," I prayed silently, "I hope this foreign place will feel like home."
The only Catholics that I know who are evangelized in these countries are those who are curious about other aspects of Christianity and who make a FREE CHOICE to find faith in Christ by some other means than Catholicism. No one is going in to the Catholic church to disrespect that body and to take people out of their faith. They are, however working in cities and villages offering programs and classes to strengthen all Believers - just like the Catholic church does the world over. I have no qualms with a Protestant becoming a Catholic, if that is their choice. You should also have no objection to a baptized Catholic making a free choice to become a Baptist or a Pentecostal. Just because a country is already “Christian” doesn’t mean that they are without need of further teaching, training and spiritual guidance. The Church has a lot of work to do - outside the work of evangelizing which seems to bother you considerably.
Just for your information, I also work in Muslim environments and nations. I visit churches throughout the USA (a “Christian” nation) and work alongside Muslims in many places. I also train young people to go into the dangerous and difficult places you can imagine.
NYer - take a breath - we love the Catholic church and have no need of taking people from it. Our goal is to see CHRIST exalted and His glory in all the earth. You are right - we need one another. I personally have a lot to learn from my Catholic brothers and sisters. I’m sure that Kristine Franklin is doing a great job as a Protestant missionary in Guatemala. Just because the Catholics were the first missionaries in a nation doesn’t preclude other humble and God-fearing missionaries from following. If that is your problem, then why on earth are there Catholic churches in New Zealand - the Anglican church got there first - it’s a British Commonwealth nation?
BTW - you still will not answer my original question
Amen!
Apologies for any misunderstandings. Perhaps you can give me some tips on how to 'light the fire' of apathetic parents who feel their children do not need religious education. These same parents go to great expense to outfit their children with the latest fashions, technology and supplies for their secular education but make every excuse imaginable to inhibit their children from learning about our Lord and His ministry. It simply boggles my mind! The pastor offers Bible study for the parents but they never show up. I am very tempted to insist that they attend religious education with their children. Any suggestions?
BTW - you still will not answer my original question.
Please refresh my memory; I have forgotten it.
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