Posted on 09/02/2007 9:49:52 AM PDT by SoldierMedic
HIGHLANDS RANCH, Colo. — To many Roman Catholics, especially the older generations, it's inconceivable that online blathering could stand in for confession. "It would be like cheating!" said one woman at St. Mark, in the Denver suburb of Highlands Ranch.
But for Ashley Iodice, a high-school senior in Weston, Fla., Internet absolution feels more natural than talking to a priest.
Now a Baptist, Iodice grew up Catholic; she remembers confession as scary — and less than sincere. It's hard be honest about the depths of teenage depravity, she said, when you're talking to an elderly priest "who's committed his whole life to poverty and chastity."
But at IveScrewedUp, Iodice's inhibitions melted and she found herself admitting to the world how she'd fallen these past few years: "Drinking," she said. "And, you know ... stupid teenage stuff."
When she was done, Iodice said, her conscience felt newly light. "It sounds odd, but to me, it was much more personal than confessing to a priest," she said. "The anonymity means you can tell everything. It's a very cool way to do it."
What does it accomplish?
Pastor Troy Gramling, of Flamingo Road Church in Florida, sees online confession as a step toward personal healing. "It's good for the soul," he said.
(Excerpt) Read more at seattletimes.nwsource.com ...
Doesn't the Priest also pass down some sort of penitence, like X amount of Hail Marys? How does he come up with that number?
The woman interviewed is not a Catholic, she’s a Baptist.
More about the oh so hip pastor Troy Gramling quoted in the article:
http://troygramling.blogspot.com/
http://www.mynakedpastor.com/#
“...voluntarily affiliates with the Southern Baptist Convention”
(from a scene in The Brothers Karamazov in which Father Zossima is speaking to a penitent)—
“Don’t be afraid of anything, ever. And do no grieve. As long as your repentance does not weaken, God will forgive everything. There is not—there cannot be—a sin that God will not forgive the truly repentant. Why, a man cannot commit a sin so great as to exhaust the infinite love of God. How could there be a sin that would surpass the love of God? . . .
Have faith that God loves you more than you can ever imagine. He loves you, sinful as you are, and indeed because of your sin. It was said long ago that there is more joy in heaven over one repentant sinner than over a hundred righteous men. Go now, and fear nothing. Do not be offended if people treat you badly.
Do not hold it against them. . . If you repent, you love, and if you love, you are with God. Love redeems and saves everything. If I, a sinner like yourself, am moved and feel compassion for you, how infinitely more will God! Love is such an infinite treasure that it can buy the whole world and can redeem not only our sins, but the sins of all people. So go and fear no more.”
He made the sign of the cross over her three times, took the holy icon from his own neck, and put it around hers. She bowed down to the ground in silence.
The article said she used to be Catholic, so I wasn’t sure Catholics also did this.
A person’s confession of sins should be between the person and God/Jesus alone.
“But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.”
The IveScrewedUp Web site is just a site owned by the Flamingo Road pastor quoted in the article. And get this disclaimer:
“By sending information to this website, the sender has granted Ivescrewedup.com a perpetual, royalty-free license to use, reproduce, modify, publish, distribute, and otherwise exercise all rights with respect to the information, at its dole discretion.”
In other word, the pastor could write a book and make money on your “confessions.” In contrast to this “pastor”, Catholic priests are bound not to reveal anything heard in confession.
My hunch is that “pastor” Troy is a voyeur...
Absolutely not.
Is confession something that must be done with a Priest, or can it be done with anybody?
The Sacrament can only be administered by a validly ordained Priest.
Doesn't the Priest also pass down some sort of penitence, like X amount of Hail Marys? How does he come up with that number?
It brings to mind that website, Postsecret.com. I get the feeling that this “pastor” wants to cash in on that type of idea. I think it is good in that it may release some guilt that the person is feeling, but it is not a legitimate Catholic confession.
The priest stands in the place of Christ, with authority given directly from Christ in Scripture to forgive OR retain sin. To decide whether to forgive or retain, Christ's representative must hear the sins, pronounce a penance, and give absolution. Absolution may be refused (and sometimes is).
As for secrecy, a priest would die before revealing one iota of what was told to him in the confessional -- and some priests have. St. John Nepomucene was ordered by a king to tell him what the queen had said in confession -- he refused and was tortured and horribly murdered, but he never breathed a word.
ANYthing on the internet is potentially public knowledge. There is no seal of the confessional on line.
Catholic priests are bound not to reveal anything heard in confession............... OK, but if he is a rogue priest and leaves the priesthood, what then? When and by who’s bidding did the confession booth first come into existance?
No, Catholics cannot do this. Confession (or the sacrament of reconciliation) is done only with a priest. When one confesses his or her sins, the priest grants absolution. Absolution is conferred upon the repentant sinner by the priest who is acting as an intermediary between the sinner and God. The priest will recommend that the sinner pray too as part of the absolution. The type or number of prayers is at the priest’s discretion. It is not so much the type or number of prayers, but that the sinner commit that sin no more. The priest is bound to secrecy by the oath of confession from discussing the sins of the confessor with anyone hence, posting someone’s confession on the internet violates that sanctity. I hope this answers your question.
Thank you for you input. It didn’t seem right to be able to post it on the net, and now I have my answer!
Kudo’s as well for those clearing up the confession and the penance portion of my question.
I’m not here to argue for or against Catholic procedures or what priests are supposed to do.
My point is that this IveScrewedUp site is nothing more than a site sponsored by a pastor (not a Catholic priest) who lets anyone browse through the confessions and whose disclaimer says he retains the right to publish the confessions. I’d say his motives are beyond pastoral.
The IveScrewedUp site has nothing to do with Catholics. Unfortunately, the article led the original poster to think that it did.
Catholics have to go to sacramental confession to a priest - but it doesn’t have to be a priest who knows them, certainly.
When I was a kid in New York City, we all went to the 24 hour confessions at St. Francis of Assisi on 33rd St. We were really sorry, but we didn’t necessarily want our pastor to know what we’d been up to.
If you’re not a Catholic, sincere repentance is probably sufficient. And even if you are a Catholic, since it’s virtually impossible to find a modern Catholic priest who wants to hear confessions, that’s probably sufficient until you can go to sacramental confession.
And what is he is a Minneapolis police officer who is tired of hanging around bathrooms at the airport? "On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog."
Of course not! The priest needs to hear the confession in order to give absolution. How interesting that this should pop up today when our pastor's homily was focused on the question of 'sincere repentance'. Only yesterday, someone asked him how he recognized true repentance of sin. Today's Gospel was Luke 7:37-50. Look at the actions: tears (remorse), kiss (greeting), ointment (healing). This priest related how a man asked to go to confession. He had been away from the Sacrament for many years. His mother had just died and he wanted to receive communion at her funeral. The man wept throughout his confession. The priest immediately recognized the sincerity of his repentance.
Let's take a closer look at the statement in the above article:
It's hard be honest about the depths of teenage depravity, she said, when you're talking to an elderly priest "who's committed his whole life to poverty and chastity."
The Church teaches us that when we go to Confession, we are confessing to God, not the priest! To underscore this statement, read what our Lord told St. Faustina, a 20th century Polish nun, to whom He appeared.
Today the Lord said to me, Daughter, when you go to confession, to this fountain of My mercy, the Blood and Water which came forth from My Heart always flows down upon your soul and ennobles it. Every time you go to confession, immerse yourself in My mercy, with great trust, so that I may pour the bounty of My grace upon your soul. When you approach the confessional, know this, that I Myself am waiting there for you. I am only hidden by the priest, but I myself act in your soul. Here the misery of the soul meets the God of mercy. Tell souls that from this fount of mercy souls draw graces solely with the vessel of trust. If their trust is great, there is no limit to My generosity. The torrents of grace inundate humble souls. The proud remain always in poverty and misery, because My grace turns away from them to humble souls. (1602) My daughter, just as you prepare in My presence, so also you make your confession before Me. The person of the priest is, for Me, only a screen. Never analyse what sort of a priest it is that I am making use of; open your soul in confession as you would to Me, and I will fill it with My light. (1725)
When we approach the Sacrament of Confession, we need to make a sincere examination of conscience (based on the 10 Commandments) and bring our sins to our Lord, through the priest. Then the tears will flow!
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Does the Catholic Church offer any leeway in that? Like if somebody is about to die, but a priest is not around, can in that unusual circumstance a normal individual step in and fulfill that role?See http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09094a.htm for a discussion of that question.
Des Moines, IA
31
“I turned into a huge slut in the last year. I slept with a married man at my best friends wedding. I had an affair with another man who has a long time girlfriend. I slept with 2 different guys in 5 days.”
Sorry, guys, she doesn’t give her number.
31 = past it’s prime
;)
It's mentioned in very early commentaries:
St. Augustine (d. 430) warns the faithful: "Let us not listen to those who deny that the Church of God has power to forgive all sins" (De agon. Christ., iii).
St. Ambrose (d. 397) rebukes the Novatianists who "professed to show reverence for the Lord by reserving to Him alone the power of forgiving sins. Greater wrong could not be done than what they do in seeking to rescind His commands and fling back the office He bestowed. . . . The Church obeys Him in both respects, by binding sin and by loosing it; for the Lord willed that for both the power should be equal" (De poenit., I, ii,6).
Again he teaches that this power was to be a function of the priesthood. "It seemed impossible that sins should be forgiven through penance; Christ granted this (power) to the Apostles and from the Apostles it has been transmitted to the office of priests" (op. cit., II, ii, 12).
The power to forgive extends to all sins: "God makes no distinction; He promised mercy to all and to His priests He granted the authority to pardon without any exception" (op. cit., I, iii, 10).
Against the same heretics St. Pacian, Bishop of Barcelona (d. 390), wrote to Sympronianus, one of their leaders: "This (forgiving sins), you say, only God can do. Quite true: but what He does through His priests is the doing of His own power" (Ep. I ad Sympron, 6 in P.L., XIII, 1057).
St. Cyril of Alexandria (d. 447): "Men filled with the spirit of God (i.e. priests) forgive sins in two ways, either by admitting to baptism those who are worthy or by pardoning the penitent children of the Church" (In Joan., 1, 12 in P.G., LXXIV, 722).
St. John Chrysostom (d. 407) declares that the priest's power of forgiving sins "penetrates to the soul and reaches up to heaven". Wherefore, he concludes, "it were manifest folly to condemn so great a power without which we can neither obtain heaven nor come to the fulfillment of the promises. . . . Not only when they (the priests) regenerate us (baptism), but also after our new birth, they can forgive us our sins" (De sacred., III, 5 sq.).
St. Athanasius (d. 373): "As the man whom the priest baptizes is enlightened by the grace of the Holy Ghost, so does he who in penance confesses his sins, receive through the priest forgiveness in virtue of the grace of Christ" (Frag. contra Novat. in P. G., XXVI, 1315).
All these quotes and more explanations are found in the Catholic Encyclopedia.
The best thing to do if somebody is in danger of death, and no priest is available, is for him to say a Perfect Act of Contrition (and wear the Brown Scapular).
If there's not time for individual confessions (i.e. if one priest is available but too many people in a common disaster to confess) then the priest can confer a General Absolution. But if you survive you have to go to individual confession A.S.A.P.
"But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Christ; and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins; and he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation. For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us. For Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God." 2 Corinthians 5:18-20
Concerning venial sins, yes. Mortal sins, no. It’s the penitents obligation, even if it means traveling to a different parish or diocese if necessary, to find a priest for auricular confession in order to return to a state of grace.
Yes, you’re correct. But as for looking for a place to go to confession, people here in the South routinely have to travel to different parishes to go to confession.
Most priests don’t regularly hear confessions here and the bishops don’t care. I thought all parishes had to offer at least an hour of individual confessions per week, but I found that there are many where the priest does not hear confessions and tells people that the once a year penance service is sufficient.
Every parish within 10-15 miles of us has confession for at least an hour once a week. Many of the more orthodox/larger churches have confession on multiple days (like Wednesdays and Saturdays, plus Sundays before Mass).
That's tough to have to travel to go to confession!
Most of us lead pretty boring lives and probably wouldn't happen to get "caught out" with a mortal sin and no priest available. It is a very good idea if you have a mortal sin on your conscience to go find a priest NOW.
That’s outrageous. Bishop or priests there clearly not fulfilling pastoral role. Hello? “To sanctify!” I thought it was bad enough here where confessions are 3:30-4:15 on Saturday afternoon, the most inconvenient time possible, but it least it is available. There’s not a hard and fast rule of how often to offer confessions, but, the Sacrament of Penance should be available ALWAYS upon request, a call to rectory for appointment, for example. I don’t think a priest can refuse to hear your confession without imperiling his own soul as well.
The priest has the authority to confer absolution upon the those who confess. It is God however who forgives. The act of confession is between God and the confessor with the priest as a witness and a person of authority. Scriptues tell us to confess our sins to one another. This cannot be therefore of no benefit to the confessee even though there may not be the blessing conferred by the priest and received by the confessee.
Confession can be made to anyone especially at a time of death or personal crisis. God looks at the intent of the heart and is willing to forgive on that basis. The confessee may not receive the blessed assurance and absolution which is the priests right to confer upon the individual. That does not mean that the person has not been forgiven this is God’s realm and His only.
Blessings
Mel
Just looking at that website and the disclaimer on it by the minister tells me that I don't want ANYBODY but a priest in the Apostolic Succession to hear my confession.
That's in addition to specific prayers that are usually imposed as part of the penance.
And of course, in order to make a "good confession," you have to be truly contrite and have full intention to amend your life and avoid the sin in the future.
I didn't think so.
But, I thought only Catholics had an "official" (Sacrament) confession type thing.
( I learn something new everyday).
It doesn't seem like a good idea to have on line confession, in either case. Internet security would be a major concern.
Actually, ‘high church’ Episcopalians (a/k/a “Catholic Lite”) also have auricular confession. But they really are just one step from Rome.
Yes, priests are bound by the Church to respect the privacy of confession. It's quite a leap to state that every priest would choose death rather than dishonor this vow.
How many Catholics, including priests, does anyone personally know who has had to choose between their Catholic faith teachings and lossing their life?
Only as an example, I mention the horrific actions of scores of priests who took a vow to dedicate their lives to God. What word, other than despicable, will describe the behavior of bishops who covered up these crimes?
Priests are human beings...they all have their individual traits, just as laymen do. We learned that a small minority of them are capable of committing sins that, I believe, may be far worse than any that most Catholic parents commit.
While I stand by my words, I've never heard or read of a priest disclosing anything he's been told in confession (Reconciliation). A minority of priests have brought a shameful scandal on the Catholic Church, aided, I have to say, by some "shepherds of the flock": they have brought damage on the whole Church and, specifically, the reputations of good and dedicated priests.
Jumping back to the subject, not even the Pope can guarantee that each and every priest would choose death over breaking their vows. C'mon! They're all human beings! And I sure wouldn't count on those who messed with the young people.
The priest stands in the place of Christ...
What suggestions do you have for a parent, a practicing Catholic who abided by the laws of the Church...one who discovered that her young son had been sexually assaulted by a priest and the charges were proven?
If this same priest has been permitted to continue in his role as a priest, would the parent be expected to believe that he "stands in the place of Christ...?"
Would the parent be committing a sin if he/she believed he was unfit to hear confessions?
My dad sai as a kid there was a priest. Ex-military who would shout out, “You did what??” and be very loud during confessions. They would often get a lecture. They would look around and hope to get the quiet priest in confession. If he got into the confessional an heard a certain voice it would be, “Oh no!”
All the allegations you're hearing now are 20-30 years old (and I suspect many now are opportunistic "piling on"). The vast majority of the accused are dead, so aren't celebrating Mass or reoffending.
So your premise is faulty (and provocative).
That being said, the question you pose was settled long ago. The idea that the validity of the Sacraments depends on the personal virtue of the priest was rejected with the Donatist heresy back in the 4th century.
There will always be sinful men in the priesthood, since EVERYBODY sins and falls short of the glory of God. So, no, personal sin on the part of a priest does not invalidate the Sacraments.
< crickets >
And I'm really beginning to believe that there ought to be a variant of Godwin's Law for people who shout "Child Molester! Child Molester!" in any discussion involving the Catholic Church. There are more offenders in protestant churches and FAR more offenders in the public school systems. Yet the Church is the only group that has taken a proactive, aggressive approach to get the homosexual offenders out -- most denominations' and certainly the public schools' "policy" consists of ignoring the problem. Obviously all this could have been done sooner, but now something is being done - something that nobody else is doing.
Yet the media (which hates the Church) never reports any of this, and gives the public schools and non-Catholic churches a complete pass. Which gives folks a stick to beat the Church with rather than discussing whatever issue is actually under consideration.
It's hard be honest about the depths of teenage depravity, she said, when you're talking to an elderly priest "who's committed his whole life to poverty and chastity." But at IveScrewedUp, Iodice's inhibitions melted and she found herself admitting to the world how she'd fallen these past few years: "Drinking," she said. "And, you know ... stupid teenage stuff."
Funny how it's hard to admit to the elderly Priest in the privacy of a one on one situation but not at all hard to risk losing anonymity and 'confess' in all gory detail to the world. It's more sensationalism than true confession with resultant change.
I’ve looked at this for several years, and the more I’ve studied it, IMHO, I’ve found Scripture to give us the basics in two foundational areas.
1st) We repent.
2nd) We confess our sins.
To amplify:
1) Repentance does involve volition and our object of our thinking or focus. In this fashion, it might simply be described as turning back to God.
Delete all te emotional baggage from repentance, and don’t get preabsorbed in brokenness. Brokenness might be a way to communicate to a worldly person who isn;t thinking through faith in Christ, that type of thinking, (not through faith in Christ) must be broken or changed in order to repent,..but then again that is redundant.
Keep it simple.
When we sin, we simply failed to hit the mark. Anything we do on our own, independent of God, known and unknown, is classifyable as sin, but they always share one facet,...they ALL occurred when we were NOT thinking through faith in Christ.
So our goal is to get back to thinking through faith through Christ.
Simply put, when we sin, we have turned away from Him, ... to repent, we are simply turning back to Him. We are facing God. We are thinking in our soul through faith in Christ on Him, turning back to Him through the mechanism He has provided,..through faith in Christ.
2) We confess our sins to God the Father through faith in Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit performs all the necessary groaning to make that understandable to the rest of the Godhead. We confess our sins, both known and unknown to God.
Now note what is happening when we confess. First we have turned back to facing Him as the object of our communication and secondly, we have now placed ourselves in humility, recognizing that we have failed to remain in fellowship with Him, thereby placing it in His hands. Its the same faith Christ exhibited in the Cross.
By 1st John 1:9, He is then free to continue our sanctification, which is a free gift, by His grace to us.
Now with respect to a third party, such as a Catholic priest in a Confessional booth. I’ve studied some of the doctrines on this issue and I’ve found the above to be consistent with the RCC approach, granted, the RCC also is providing a fellow believer, well trained, possibly spiritually gifted to assist the believer in the mechanics, but nobody other than God Himself is actually forgiving the sins ans causing them to be remembered no more other than God Himself.
I believe most Catholic priests would be stronger on this issue than I am, not to confuse the Catholic priest as being the person who is forgiving the believer of their sins. That is strictly a relationship between the believer and God through faith in Christ. It is of spiritual significance.
It is also spiritually significant, when we confess our sins, that we do try to remember all of them, because if we just ignore them,...we basically are scarring our thinking processes in our soul, such that the next time we face circumstances, testing our ability to remain in fellowship with Him through faith in Christ, we are now scarred in our thinking and can relapse into past habits of thinking which might be independent of Him, again sinning.
By confessing all the sins, He is free to rework and renew our mind, and our heart, thereby continueing to sanctify us so we might be better equipped to resist temptation and continue to walk in fellowship with Him in all things.
FWIW, 2 issues I’ve found are good to avoid, are association of repentance with emotionalism and confession as being counterfeited by admitting our sins to third parties not involved in the process of our being returned to fellowship with God through faith in Christ,...no other intermediaries other than what God has provided are necessary so as not to counterfeit the plan He has already prepared and for us to follow His will, again through faith in Him.
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