Posted on 09/04/2007 9:40:56 AM PDT by NYer
Several Roman Catholic priests in Southwest Virginia are thankful demand for the old-style Latin Mass hasn't emerged here because they are already stretched thin trying to serve rural parishes.
This summer Pope Benedict XVI allowed freer use of the traditional Latin liturgy. Some regard his July 7 apostolic letter as a way of healing a rift with Catholic traditionalists.
Although Latin is woven occasionally into regular services, the pope's action means that priests no longer need special permission from bishops to perform the old-style Latin Mass. The 16th century Tridentine Mass had been commonly celebrated for 1,500 years but was modernized during the Second Vatican Council in 1962.
In Virginia, just two churches in the Catholic Diocese of Richmond practice the Tridentine Mass; St. Joseph's Roman Catholic Church in Richmond and St. Benedict Chapel in Chesapeake. The Richmond diocese encompasses an area that includes all of Southwestern and southern Virginia.
In the Arlington diocese that covers Northern Virginia, the Tridentine Mass is celebrated in two parishes, St. Lawrence Roman Catholic Church in Alexandria and St. John the Baptist Roman Catholic Church in Front Royal. At this time, the diocese is aware of at least two other parishes considering it, according to diocesan spokesman Soren Johnson.
In Southwest Virginia, refresher training would be needed before local priests would be able to do the old-style Latin rite with ease. Monsignor Thomas Miller at St. Andrew's Catholic Church in Roanoke recalls the Tridentine rite when he was a youth altar server at a Winchester church.
"I've been a priest 36 years, and I've never celebrated a Latin Mass and haven't had any language training for over 40 years," Miller said. "We already do four weekend services. The thought of adding an additional service and having to learn an entirely different way of conducting it is not an attractive process."
Catherine Combier-Donovan, director of the diocese's office of worship, said demand for the Latin liturgy was less than expected.
"We thought we would get a lot of calls, but it has not been very much," she said.
Where it would be offered depends on the interest from parishioners.
"It is not done just for the sake of nostalgia, but to respond to the spiritual needs of the community," she said.
The diocese isn't offering training in the Tridentine rite, so priests who want specific training would have to contact seminaries and universities.
"The difficulty is very few priests would know how to celebrate it or have the proficiency in Latin that is necessary," she said. "Some might have further interest in pursuing further education."
The shortage of priests means they travel to several churches to perform Masses. The number of Catholics is growing more rapidly than the vocations to the priesthood.
There are 118 active priests for 152 parishes in the Richmond diocese. And Southwest Virginia has fewer priests to serve more parishes than elsewhere in the diocese.
In July, priests received assignments that added new parishes to their duties. For example, the Rev. Rene Castillo now has three churches that he serves, including St. Gerard's Catholic Church in Roanoke, St. John the Evangelist in New Castle and Church of the Transfiguration in Fincastle.
The Rev. Joseph Lehman and one other priest from Our Lady of Nazareth in Roanoke take turns doing services at Resurrection Catholic Church in Moneta, celebrating Mass and administering the sacraments. They also serve Francis of Assisi Catholic Church in Rocky Mount.
Lehman said there may not be a need for every parish to offer this rite. He envisions a regional site where people could travel for the Tridentine Mass.
Recalling that his Latin study was 38 years ago in high school, Lehman said he would need more training. Still, there hasn't been much call for the traditional Latin Mass in his parishes.
"I probably would not be able to pray in Latin," he joked. "I have a hard enough time praying publicly in English."
Chris Barrett, pastoral coordinator at Resurrection Church in Moneta, said he grew up with the Latin Mass. As a pastoral coordinator, he is charged by the bishop to provide pastoral care, management and coordination of ministries.
"I grew up with the Latin Mass, and I have fond memories of it," Barrett said. "I treasure in my heart some of the Latin responses, but I have no desire to pray in that fashion any more."
He said the priests typically weave Greek or Latin into special services during the holy season of Lent.
"One of the things people like about the Latin is that it accentuates the mystique," he said. "There is plenty of celebration of the sacred mysteries in any language."
Demands for the old-style Latin Mass would burden priests in this region, he said.
"The priests are overwhelmed with duties and responsibilities," Barrett said. "There is really no good reason to add this to their responsibilities."
ping
"I've been a priest 36 years, and I've never celebrated a Latin Mass and haven't had any language training for over 40 years," Miller said. "We already do four weekend services. The thought of adding an additional service and having to learn an entirely different way of conducting it is not an attractive process."
Monsignor is too busy offering weekend services to Celebrate Holy Mass. I've been to those services...and many others in the Roanoke Valley. If the people there stand for what passes as Mann on Sundays they're not going to be demanding the Latin Mass in too many places. People out there spend more time talking and chit chatting in the pews then they do praying. I've been to several parishes in Roanoke and Radford lately and it is impossible to properly prepare for Mass in those places. The Sign of Peace goes on for ten minutes with people seeming to want to reach out and touch every other person in the church.
THAT is Bishop Sullivan's legacy. After 30 years as bishop, with virtually no vocations, the diocese has more parishes than priests. Bishop Sullivan is a graduate of St. Mary's Seminary in Baltimore (!), and was a great tolerator of liturgical abuse. Among other things.
Lived in Williamsburg, Va. I had to hunt for a Catholic Church.
I don't know of course, but I see "the fine Italian hand" of a bishop unsympathetic to the TLM. I'll bet the reporter's first source was Catherine Combier-Donovan, director of the diocese's office of worship (and there's no way of knowing who initiated the contact), who fed her the names of priests likely to toe the party line. Assuming the diocese didn't actually prepare a draft!
Many boys and young men aren't very fired up about standing behind and look across the altar at the people, like a bank manager standing behind a big desk, every gaze focused on his face.
But facing the altar just as the congregation does, visibly leading (and not entertaining) his "pilgrim people" and, with our High Priest, Jesus Christ, offering a solemn Sacrifice, with incense (like in heaven) and the chanting of the sacred words: I think you'll find young males who think that's a position worthy of a man.
There’s also, in the Dreadful Diocese of Richmond, the depressing spectacle of adult women doing all the “Altar Boy” things, whilst their 8-18yo sons sit in the congregation.
Part of the difficulty is that the diocese is relatively large, geographically, and the number of Catholics relatively sparse.
There appear to be about 212,000 Catholics in a territory of over 36,000 sq. miles. That works out to less than 6 Catholics per square mile. By comparison, the Archdiocese of Washington has about 570,000 Catholics in a little over 2,000 sq. miles.
The experience in the Archdiocese of Washington is that something less than 1% of folks at Mass on Sundays are at the old use of the Mass, even though pretty much everyone in the archdiocese is within a half-hour drive of at least one of its three old use Masses (and many are also that close or closer to the old use Mass in northern Virginia).
If the Mass attendance rate in the Diocese of Richmond is roughly equal to that of Washington, that means about 60,000 - 70,000 are at Mass on a given Sunday. If 1% of these folks want the old Mass, that’s maybe 600 - 700. In a territory of 36,000 sq miles.
sitetest
I was simply addressing the scandalous dearth of vocations under the leadership of “Uncle Wally”. Regarding the “extraordinary form” of the Mass: There are already two (legitimate) full-up Latin Mass parishes, St. Joseph in Richmond and St. Benedict Chapel in Chesapeake.
Several years ago, while still suffering under the episcopate of Walter Sullivan, I attended what I thought would be Sunday Mass at St. Jude's in Radford. Turns out their pastor was away and a woman sat in for him. I left halfway through start of the 'ceremony'. She wore vestments similar to what a Deacon might wear and after the Processional she approaced and kissed the altar as a priest would and turned to bless the congregation and that's when I left.
Several years ago, while still suffering under the episcopate of Walter Sullivan, I attended what I thought would be Sunday Mass at St. Jude's in Radford. Turns out their pastor was away and a woman sat in for him. I left halfway through start of the 'ceremony'. She wore vestments similar to what a Deacon might wear and after the Processional she approaced and kissed the altar as a priest would and turned to bless the congregation and that's when I left.
“I was simply addressing the scandalous dearth of vocations under the leadership of ‘Uncle Wally’.”
I understand and agree.
I was just pointing out that another difficulty is the rather thin spread of Catholics through this diocese.
Even if there were twice as many priests, it’d still be difficult to increase the number of extraordinary form Masses beyond the two that already exist.
Yet, two old use Masses in a territory of over 36,000 sq miles must mean that there are some folks who are a couple or more hours away from the old Mass who would like to go to it.
It’s just a tough situation, is all.
sitetest
More than half-hearted attempts at offering the extraordinary Mass at more Parishes, I think the Diocese needs to round up all the "liturgists" and "ministers of music" (gag puke choke), and give them a good coat of tar and feathers. I've seen several Parishes in which Father Soundofmind is trying to offer the Mass reverently and respectfully, while Mizz Fairy Godmother Minister of Music is trying to have a Broadway performance.
“Good points, all ... I don’t think we’re really disagreeing on anything.”
My apologies - wasn’t meaning to disagree at all, just augment.
:-)
sitetest
looks to me like they’re bootstrapping.
using a legitimate problem with the Diocese (dirth of Vocations) as another bullet in the “no one wants the Mass in Latin gun”
Seems like a common and I suspect successful tactic.
Though to play advocate, perhaps the lack of reverence permeating this particular Diocese (I only know this from FReepers), has destroyed any desire for the extraordinary form of the Latin Rite.
Bishop Sullivan is considered to be some type of living saint by most Catholics in my area. It really cracks me up. I reckon that the vast majority of Catholics in the diocese are completely satisfied with his legacy. Of course there’s not going to be an outcry for the option of TLM, nobody knows any better due to his “awesome guidance”.
Freegards
Wait until the Mass appears on EWTN a few times and once with Pope Benedict on a Holy Day.
This generation is validated by TV and Pope Benedict knows it. He chose the Bishop of Birmingham, home of EWTN, personally, I believe. Give the Holy Spirit some time to work. Tradition and beauty (the Pope’s favorite word) will do the rest.
Ad maiorem Dei gloriam!
F
Great post. Combine the low population density for Catholics in the diocese with 30+ years of craptastic teaching and you have the diocese of Richmond.
Freegards
If you are in the Roanoke area, might I suggest
St. Elias Maronite Church
4730 Cove Road Rd.
Roanoke, VA 24017
Rev. Rodolphe Wakim
Tel. 540 562-0012
Daily Liturgy: 9:00 AM except Wednesday
Holy Days of Obligation: 7:00 PM (Vigil) and 11:00 AM Holy Day
Saturday: 5:00 PM
Sunday: 11:00 AM
In Glen Allen, you have St. Anthony's .
My pastor just returned from a retreat and conference in VA and the pastor at St. Anthony's has put together a video of testimonials from Roman Catholics who love the Maronite Divine Liturgy (the video was their suggestion). If you decide to visit either of these parishes, freepmail me a few days before and I will give you some insight on what to expect. Reverent and beautiful!
I don’t reckon it’s a lack of wanting to be reverent — at least by the folks. It’s a lack of being taught what actually is reverent by the hierarchy. The laity, at least in my area of the diocese, don’t seem to have been taught very much about the Catholic faith, so they don’t even realize something stinks when cookies are passed off as hosts, for example.
Freegards
Our new padre flinchingly made the announcement on Sunday that the new Bishop had made an announcement that the paten and cup were to be purified only by the ordained; the extraordinary ministers were to stop purifying them. Flinchingly. Afraid to hurt their feelings.
I had a loooooong chat with the deacon after Mass. It appears that he has no memory of the Latin Mass since he converted after Vatican II; there is apparently little exitement about it in the diocese. So, in my own extremely quiet, and humble, and self-deprecating, and humble and roundabout humble fashion, I started to bring him up to speed on the wishes of at least this one parishioner. And, thanks to the efforts of many here on FR, I found that I was more up to date on several matters than he was. Then I even more humbly let him know about things that were about to come down the pike.
Not that I would wish to make waves or anything.
I think that's probably more true in the Western parts of the diocese than in Tidewater. Even though we have our share of those kinds of parishes too. I expect that the Extraordinary Rite will be regularly celebrated in 2 or 3 parishes in Virginia Beach and probably 1 in Chesapeake (excluding St Benedict's Chapel) and another in Norfolk.
Good for him! Next step should be to reduce the number of EMHCs and altar girls - unflinchingly. I attended a Maronite Catholic Funeral Mass two years ago. There were 300+ in attendance. In the Maronite Church, communion is by intinction and distributed only by a priest, deacon or bishop. There were 2 priests and 1 deacon distributing communion and the lines moved faster than those with EMHC's.
And, thanks to the efforts of many here on FR, I found that I was more up to date on several matters than he was.
Kudos! Yes indeed! That has been the experience of many of us here at FR. We have learned much and grown stronger in our Catholic faith through each other. Hang around us long enough and you will soon be writing theological tomes ;-) (just kidding).
Seriously, though, when I first arrived in the Religion Forum at FR, I was under the impression that VCII had done away with meatless Fridays (hey, I was a child at the time but still recall the news commentator announcing that Catholics could now eat meat on Fridays). That was good enough for my family and the switch was made. Fast forward to FR and I posted that fact as a comment to another freeper on some thread. Well, several freepers immediately pointed me to the documents of VCII and Canon Law which state that a Catholic may eat meat on Friday only if they make some other form of sacrifice. IOW, Canon Law has not changed and the discipline is still there. It was truly a shock! In another sense, it was a tremendous relief to acknowledge that our Church has retained its constant call upon us to "live the life of Christ".
Through FR, I have met some truly extraordinary Catholics, many of whom I consider to be sincere friends.
You've got that right! I don't imagine the TLM is even simmering on the warmer in LA, or Albany, or Rochester, or any of those other dioceses run by liberal bishops.
There are several FReepers from Virginia. I know one has weighed in. Anyone else?
Os this bishop ready to retire?
**Our new padre flinchingly made the announcement on Sunday that the new Bishop had made an announcement that the paten and cup were to be purified only by the ordained;**
Absolutely true. Came down a long time ago here. Our priest does it all the time. If we have the deacon, the deacon does it.
**And, thanks to the efforts of many here on FR, I found that I was more up to date on several matters than he was.**
I have sent articles from Free Republic to liturgy committee members and they had no idea about it. Then, what do you know, the priest is doing it!!
LOL!
PS. Sometimes I do send things to the priest, but he is very “up on the latest decrees, etc.” from the Vatican as well as from the Bishop.
Oops.
Os this bishop ready to retire?
Is this bishop ready to retire?
Howdy Salvation. Bishop Sullivan (the Bishop who enforced absolutely nothing fer years an’ years) retired a few years ago. Sullivan’s replacement, Bishop DiLorenzo, now runs the diocese. Bishop DiLorenzo used to run the diocese of Honolulu, where he was considered kinda liberal by the laity there. But compaired to Bishop Sullivan, many lib Catholics think B. DiLorenzo is a fire breathing ogre-traditionalist from the middle ages. They think this because he is actually enforcing Church teaching. Compaired to what we were used to, he is like a breath of fresh air, even though he is ‘probly mighty liberal by the standards of most “traditional” Catholics.
Also, I reckon the new pope has cracked down some too.
Freegards, thanks for all the pings and threads
The Episcopal offender was Walter Sullivan and he has retired, Thanks be to God! Our new bishop is Francis DiLorenzo and he seems much more serious about his duties as teacher and pastor but he has 30 years of hippy dippy experimentation and institutional liturgical abuse to overcome. He could use all our prayers.
There is no more need for “solemn sacrifices,” because Jesus has already offered Himself as the supreme sacrifice for our sins. Haven’t you read John 19:30? It says that Jesus cried out, “It is finished.” Read the book of Hebrews. It says that Christ entered once into the Holy Place and obtained eternal redemption for us (Heb. 9:12). Christ was “once offered to bear the sins of many” (Heb. 9:28). Christ does not need to offer sacrifices daily (Heb. 7:27). He appeared once to put away sins by the sacrifice of Himself (Heb. 9:26). Continual sacrifice, which was part of the Old Covenant, could not, and still cannot, make anyone perfect (Heb. 10:1-18). Heb. 10:14 says, “For by one offering he [that is, Christ] hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.” If we willfully sin, we cannot offer sacrifices for our sins. We must repent, or suffer the consequences (Heb. 10:26-39).
Right you are. The Mass IS Christ’s sacrifice. He is our High Priest.
Give or take 1,000 years.
Hebrews teaches the atoning death of Christ was effective for the remission of sins and hence needed to be offered only once. But this speaks of what theologians call the "objective redemption." It doesn't mean that, since Jesus died for everyone, everyone will get to heaven. (That's universalism.) The merits or the fruits of Christ's death need to be applied to the individual.
Christ's sacrifice objectively merited redemption on the Cross. The same sacrifice of Christ, now offered sacramentally, not physically, is applied to the individual in the Eucharist.
>> “I’ve been a priest 36 years, and I’ve never celebrated a Latin Mass and haven’t had any language training for over 40 years,” Miller said. “We already do four weekend services. The thought of adding an additional service and having to learn an entirely different way of conducting it is not an attractive process.” <<
I might recommend SUBSTITUTING one of the other four masses. 7AM? The Latin-mass types are up already; the Vatican-III types would never know about it, and when you got drunk, you could still boast to the other anti-Latin priests, “I showed it to those Latin Mass wierdos; I gave’em the 7AM.”
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.