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The Biblical Map to Jesus Christ's Return
Good News Magazine ^ | August 2007 | Jerold Aust

Posted on 09/09/2007 5:07:34 PM PDT by DouglasKC

The Biblical Map to Jesus Christs Return

Maps show the way from where you are to your final destination. The Bible provides the only spiritual map to our ultimate destiny. Doesn’t it make good sense to plan your life's journey by learning how to read the genuine biblical map?

by Jerold Aust

You and I may take ordinary road maps for granted, but the history of mapmaking shows that ancient peoples carefully relied on their relatively primitive maps.

Noted author and professor John Noble Wilford wrote: "Before Europeans reached the Pacific, the Marshall Islanders were making stick charts. Sticks were lashed together with fibers to depict prevailing winds and wave patterns; shells or coral were inserted at the appropriate places to represent islands. When a Tahitian communicated his knowledge of South Pacific geography to Captain Cook by drawing a map, it was clear that he and his people were quite familiar with the map idea.

"Pre-Columbian maps in Mexico indicated roads by lines of footprints. Centuries ago Eskimos carved accurate coastal maps in ivory, the Incas built elaborate relief maps of stone and clay, and early Europeans drew sketch maps on their cave walls" (The Mapmakers, 1981, p. 7).

The map idea

According to Wilford, cartographers agree that there is something fundamental about the map idea: "It is a basic form of human communication . . . Indeed, the term map is often used metaphorically to explain other types of knowing and communicating" (p. 13).

Wilford carefully explored the symbolic values of mapmaking: "In everyday conversation, the word map is used to convey the idea of clarification: someone maps out a plan or maps out his future" (ibid.). Later in this book he wrote, "Maps embody a perspective of that which is known and a perception of that which may be worth knowing" (p. 386). He makes a very good case that maps are excellent symbolic tools, communicating that which is so far unknown by that which is known.

But if an ordinary map can communicate a desired destination, could there also be a map for Christians to use to find their ultimate destiny in this life? Is there a plan already mapped out that would determine a sense of here in relation to there? The short answer is yes.

Would Almighty God, who has created the orderly, harmonious and self-regulating universe, create human beings—the only fully cognitive processing creatures on this planet—without planning and/or mapping out an ultimate destiny for us?

Not only is there a biblical map that can assist you in arriving at your ultimate destination, but that map is also the key to your spiritual survival. The map I speak of is both real and symbolic, a great communication tool in the service of humankind.

The Bible's symbolic map

Remarkably, the Scriptures are filled with basic symbolic maps that can and will lead you to true freedom and immortality. Ironically, millions of Christians have neglected to use the very biblical map that God has so freely given to them.

In fact, many mainstream Christians have ignored the basic biblical map leading to salvation and "penciled in" traditional pagan symbols instead. When you misread a map, a miss is as good as a mile.

For example, though God has clearly mapped out our salvation by way of the Holy Days He reveals in the Bible, religionists from time immemorial have changed God's symbols and replaced them with pagan ones. For instance, they have substituted modern religious holidays like Christmas and Easter for God's revelatory Holy Days.

No wonder humankind has consistently run into biblical dead ends or taken frustrating and confusing religious detours—rather than following the road to eternal life (Daniel 7:25). Let's briefly explore God's symbols, His annual Sabbaths in the autumn that mark out and point the way to immortality in God's coming Kingdom.

Our Creator has revealed seven annual festivals starting in the spring, each one depicting some great event in the ongoing mapping of God's salvation for humankind. However, this particular article will focus on and highlight only the four festivals that occur in the late summer and autumn of the year (in the northern hemisphere).

Each represents a decisive turning point in human history. The previous three spring festivals of Passover, the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Pentecost constitute personal responses to the workings of God in the people He calls and chooses during this age of man. The Bible calls them the firstfruits of God's salvation. (For a fuller discussion of all seven of these annual occasions, request or download our free booklet God's Holy Day Plan: The Promise of Hope for All Mankind.)

The Feast of Trumpets maps the arrival of Jesus Christ

The first autumn festival is the Feast of Trumpets. This biblical festival helps us understand why Jesus Christ must return and reveals how and what He will do when He arrives.

It also reveals what happens to His true followers, both those who are still alive and those who are "dead in Christ," at His coming. Both are transformed immediately to immortal children of God (1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 42-44, 50-53). Jesus gathers His elect (see 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), who will afterward follow Christ when He descends on the Mount of Olives (Revelation 19:14; John 18:36).

Historically, the Feast of Trumpets was first given to God's nation Israel (Leviticus 23:24). In that context trumpets were, and still are, symbols that indicated an alarm for war. Israel often blew trumpets to alert its army and regular population that battle was imminent. Consider the trumpets that were blown when God instructed Israel to conquer Jericho (Joshua 6). A blowing of trumpets signaled imminent battle.

The book of Revelation likewise shows blowing of trumpets in preparation for Jesus' return. The fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets is loudly sounded in Revelation chapters 8 through 11 where the seven trumpets of God warn of major cataclysmic events. These trumpet blasts serve as the prelude to the seven last plagues of Revelation 16.

The Feast of Trumpets symbolizes the return of Christ, the most pivotal and well-mapped-out event in all of human history. When Christians celebrate the Feast of Trumpets, they are in a sense acting out in advance a great symbol of their salvation. (If you would like to understand the significance of these biblical prophecies in much greater detail, please request or download our free booklet The Book of Revelation Unveiled.)

The Day of Atonement maps Satan's removal

The Day of Atonement focuses on the future removal of the devil and his cohorts, powerful evil spirits unseen by the naked human eye, called demons. As agents of deception and baleful influence, they have been misleading mankind since the Garden of Eden (see Revelation 12:9).

The fact that many today doubt the existence of evil spirits demonstrates the success of the deception. (For the absolute biblical proof, request or download our free booklet Is There Really a Devil?)

Through the book of Job, Scripture shows that Satan is personally involved with humanity. "And the Lord said to Satan, 'From where do you come?' So Satan answered the Lord and said, 'From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it'" (Job 1:7).

From this and many other biblical passages we see that Satan is intricately involved with humanity at large. Recall that when the devil offered Jesus Christ the kingdoms of the world, Jesus did not counter his rule over mankind. "Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, 'All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me'" (Matthew 4:8-9, emphasis added throughout).

The apostle Paul tells us that Satan is the god of this world and that he has blinded the minds of all humanity (1 Corinthians 4:4). He began his deception with our first parents, Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:1-6; Romans 5:14-15).

Thankfully Satan's destructive work on humankind will cease. Christ will remove the devil from the human realm for a thousand years at His return (Revelation 20:1-3; compare Romans 16:20). This major event is mapped out or symbolized by the Day of Atonement. Christians observe this unique biblical festival by fasting, drawing close to God and acknowledging their total reliance on Him (Leviticus 23:26-32; Acts 27:9).

The reason God is going to remove Satan and the demonic realm from the human sphere is very clear: They are at the heart of all human troubles, pain, suffering, war and death. Without the destroyer, peace can break out on the earth (Isaiah 14:4-7). Only then can humanity continue on the road to God's peace and prosperity.

The Day of Atonement keeps the path open for all humankind to experience the wonderful world tomorrow, the coming Kingdom of God! That time is symbolized by the joyous Feast of Tabernacles, the next stop on the road map to eternal life.

Feast of Tabernacles maps universal peace and prosperity

The Feast of Tabernacles is strongly symbolic of the great destination for humanity on the road to universal peace and prosperity. Yet that destination cannot be reached before the previous ones. There is a specific and orderly sequence of benchmark events that must take place for humankind to arrive safely at its ultimate destination. There are no shortcuts.

By way of a brief review, the Feast of Trumpets heralds the return of Jesus Christ, where He resurrects the dead in Christ and changes those Christians who are still alive (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15), and begins to remove all tyrannical governments (Revelation 11:15-18).

The next destination in God's master plan of salvation is the Day of Atonement, where Christ removes Satan and incarcerates him (Revelation 20:1-3). Only then can peace break out on earth (Isaiah 14:7; 11). This leads to the next step as represented by the Feast of Tabernacles, when Jesus will rule as the great Sovereign for 1,000 years.

Today Christ's disciples who understand the meaning of the symbols of God's step-by-step map of salvation keep the annual Feast of Tabernacles in anticipation of mankind's great future.

Throughout the earth, humanity will rejoice in unparalleled peace and prosperity. War, violence, deception, famines and all the other insoluble problems that plague mankind today will disappear from the earth (Isaiah 11:1-9; Micah 4:1-7). This war-weary earth will become a new Garden of Eden, beginning at Jerusalem and then spreading to all nations (Ezekiel 36:35; Zechariah 14:16).

Last Great Day maps salvation for mankind

During the autumn festival season, yet one major event follows the Feast of Tabernacles.

This destination on the biblical map that Christ has revealed to His saints has stupendous meaning. It figuratively shows the destination of all human beings who have ever lived from Adam's time to Christ's second coming.

It's called the Last Great Day, or the eighth day of the Feast. "On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation . . . It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it" (Leviticus 23:36).

Keep in mind that as an ordinary road map has the appropriate symbols to depict the reality of destinations, so has God given symbols to show the reality of His major goals for humanity.

God's people are instructed to observe the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days, with the first day being a Holy Day (verse 34). Following is a final festival that represents the opportunity for salvation for all human beings who have ever lived not knowing nor really understanding God's truth. This involves a general resurrection to physical life, at which time Jesus Christ and His reigning saints will reveal the true path to salvation.

Let's notice two significant passages that help us understand this symbolic festival. "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished . . . Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away . . . And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books" (Revelation 20:5, 11-12).

The great white throne judgment described here has several symbolically significant meanings. It's great because of the billions of human beings who will be raised from the dead for their day of salvation. White refers to holiness and righteousness. Throne infers Christ's righteous rule. It's a time of judgment because these human beings are then judged or evaluated by Jesus Christ in mercy and compassion over a period of time (1 Corinthians 11:31-32).

Another notable passage is found in the oft-misunderstood prophecy of Ezekiel 37. The valley of dry bones represents the whole house of Israel, all 12 tribes (not just the Jewish people although they are prominently included), who lived and died with no apparent hope. At this time, Christ will resurrect all human beings, Israelites and gentiles alike, all those who have ever lived and who never really knew God. They will be resurrected to physical life but offered His Spirit and the hope of salvation they never had (Ezekiel 37:11-14).

Though some will ultimately reject God and be lost—destroyed in a lake of fire (Revelation 21:8)—most will embrace Him and His ways, joining the saints in eternal salvation.

Jesus' return symbolized by the fall festivals

John Noble Wilford's quotes about maps certainly ring true when it comes to mapping Christ's return: "Maps embody a perspective of that which is known and a perception of that which may be worth knowing" (The Mapmakers, p. 386). Maps "communicate a sense of place, some sense of here in relation to there" (p. 7).

The four autumn festivals can rightly be compared to great milestones for all of mankind, mapped out in advance by God in His Holy Bible. Each one comes in its own order and proper sequence, just as following an ordinary road map from town to town leads to a physical destination. But with God's map, the end result is the salvation of all humankind.

Most human beings today do not know or understand how to read and study the Bible. During this age of man, God's people are given the understanding to follow His map of the future leading to the coming Kingdom of God and beyond.

The grand ultimate destiny of humanity is to become immortal children of God the Father, younger brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ, living and serving in the New Jerusalem and throughout the universe forever and ever (Revelation 21–22; Hebrews 2:8; Deuteronomy 4:19).

Understanding God's plan and purpose revealed in the pages of the Bible constitutes the map that the people of God now follow in earnest. However, responsibility comes with the God-given ability to read His map of salvation. Those who have the knowledge of God, sprinkled throughout a darkened global society, should rejoice in these festivals and help show the world God's way and His path to salvation for mankind. GN



TOPICS: General Discusssion; History; Other Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: christ; days; feast; holy; secondcoming
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The Lord's fall holy days (the only holy days the Lord made) begin next week with the Feast of Trumpets.
1 posted on 09/09/2007 5:07:38 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
Thank you for this.

Blessings to you and yours.

shalom b'shem Yah'shua

2 posted on 09/09/2007 5:39:10 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt

Thanks Chuck and blessings to you too.


3 posted on 09/09/2007 6:18:39 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
I look forward to Erev Rosh Hashana
at evening on the 12th of September.
b'shem Yah'shua

4 posted on 09/09/2007 6:32:37 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt
I look forward to Erev Rosh Hashana at evening on the 12th of September.

As am I. We will be attending worship services and fellowshipping with other Michigan churches on Thursday. Do you have any special plans?

5 posted on 09/09/2007 6:42:00 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
Those aware of these festivals generally believe they were meant only for ancient Israel and ceased after Jesus Christ's crucifixion. They assume these days simply pointed toward Christ, and they think that, since He lived on earth 2,000 years ago, their importance has long since passed. Most people consider these biblical festivals as nothing more than relics of history with no relevance to the modern world.

The old covenant feast days were unique to Israel as a nation living in the physical land when there was a temple and a priesthood to offer the sacrifices according to the law given through Moses.

The priesthood, temple, and biblical nation of Israel no longer exist. There were done away with at the coming of Christ who gave us a new holy nation and royal priesthood called the Church. We no longer keep feast days given by Moses (who represented the law) that have decayed and faded away (Heb. 8:13). Those who attempt to keep these ersatz feast days do so according to traditions of men, not the commandments of God, for God never gave His people instructions on how to keep “Rosh Hashanah” or “Yom Kippur” apart from the temple sacrifices or earthly priesthood.

"For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ" (John 1:17).

We follow Christ in the grace of the gospel. If you are still following after Moses by keeping old covenant feast days as pleasing to God then the apostle Paul has much to say to you in Galatians.

Christ’s followers live under the terms of the new covenant in the new Jerusalem where the old priesthood and old ordinances no longer have any place. They were mere shadows of things to come (Col. 2:17) and Christ’s followers no longer come to Him in shadows.

6 posted on 09/09/2007 7:30:21 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
The old covenant feast days were unique to Israel as a nation living in the physical land when there was a temple and a priesthood to offer the sacrifices according to the law given through Moses.

Really? I've got many friends on line and in real life who would disagree with your opinion.

We no longer keep feast days given by Moses (who represented the law) that have decayed and faded away (Heb. 8:13).

Christ, the Lord himself, is chronicled in the bible speaking to Moses about his (Christ's) holy days:

Lev 23:1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

Also you are apparently inserting your opinion into hebrew 8:13

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away

The old covenant, not the Lord's holy days, is what Hebrews 13 is referring to.

Those who attempt to keep these ersatz feast days do so according to traditions of men, not the commandments of God, for God never gave His people instructions on how to keep “Rosh Hashanah” or “Yom Kippur” apart from the temple sacrifices or earthly priesthood.

Nonsense. Let's look at the feast of trumpets (Rosh Hashanah):

Lev 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation.
Lev 23:25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

We have instructions to:

1. Observe a sabbath.
2. Blow trumpets.
3. Gather together.
4. Don't do servile work.

None of these require sacrifice or a temple.

"For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ" (John 1:17).

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

We follow Christ in the grace of the gospel. If you are still following after Moses by keeping old covenant feast days as pleasing to God then the apostle Paul has much to say to you in Galatians.

Paul kept the feasts himself:

Act 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

Act 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

They were mere shadows of things to come (Col. 2:17)

You misquoted scripture:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Christ.

ARE, not "were".

7 posted on 09/09/2007 8:26:41 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
Do you have any special plans?

Since I've moved from Denver, I'm now 125 miles from Roah Israel.

I live in a small town of 3000 people and 30 churches.

However none recognize Yah'shua and the first testament.
and the need or desire to keep Elohim's feast days.

So I will celebrate with Paul Wilbur CDs and Elohim's Holy Word.

shalom b'shem Yah'shua
8 posted on 09/10/2007 11:59:38 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: DouglasKC; topcat54
You misquoted scripture:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Christ.

ARE, not "were".

Great catch on the verse.

My BibleWorks says the verb is present tense as you stated.

shalom b'shem Yah'shua
9 posted on 09/10/2007 12:04:12 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: DouglasKC
ARE, not "were".

He's writing before the destruction of the Temple.

"Are" became "were" in AD 70, when Temple Judaism ceased to exist.

10 posted on 09/10/2007 1:14:17 PM PDT by Campion
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To: XeniaSt; DouglasKC
"ARE, not "were"."

Great catch on the verse.

Not exactly. From Paul's perspective "are" would be correct since the temple was still standing and the temporal/temporary Levitical priesthood was still ministering according to the bloody requirements of the old covenant, the covenant that was decaying and passing away. AD70 was the fulfillment of the "days of vengeance" meted out against unrepentant Israel.

From our perspective, 2000 years since the temple was destroyed and the keys of the Kingdom were transferred from national Israel to spiritual Israel, the Church, the phrase I used was quite correct.

11 posted on 09/10/2007 4:02:44 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: DouglasKC
Really? I've got many friends on line and in real life who would disagree with your opinion.

And that is supposed to prove what?

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I always get a chuckle when the messianics quote this passage and then fail to explain why it is that they are free to ignore all the detailed stipulations given in the Mosaic law about how Israel in the land was to keep the feasts, etc and may pick and choose the parts of the ceremonial/Levitical law that should be kept today. I guess “jot and tittle” really does not mean anything in your system.

Can you show exactly where in the Bible God gave commands for how to keep all these feast days under the new covenant without benefit of the “jots and tittles” that were given originally?

The rabbis had to invent new law to explain this to their post-AD70 followers. Can you explain why it appears messianic are doing precisely the same thing today?

Paul kept the feasts while the temple system was still in place to win his fellow Jews to Christ, not in order to find special favor with God.

“19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;” (1 Cor. 9)

What was Paul admitting about the law when he says he “became as a Jew”? And what does Paul say abut those who place themselves “under the law”?

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.’” (Gal. 3:10)

“But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.” (Gal. 5:18)

You need to read all of Paul to get the right picture.

12 posted on 09/10/2007 4:30:52 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54; DouglasKC; Campion

DKC>"ARE, not "were"."

XS>Great catch on the verse.

Not exactly. From Paul's perspective "are" would be correct since the temple was still standing and the temporal/temporary Levitical priesthood was still ministering according to the bloody requirements of the old covenant, the covenant that was decaying and passing away. AD70 was the fulfillment of the "days of vengeance" meted out against unrepentant Israel.

From our perspective, 2000 years since the temple was destroyed and the keys of the Kingdom were transferred from national Israel to spiritual Israel, the Church, the phrase I used was quite correct.

11 posted on 09/10/2007 5:02:44 PM MDT by topcat54

If I understand you correctly Elohim's Holy Word i.e. Yah'shua HaMashiach

was correct for forty years, but

is incorrect today because it conflicts with your eisgesis.

How does this square with your belief that all scripture was fulfilled in 70 AD.

shalom b'shem Yah'shua
13 posted on 09/10/2007 5:11:08 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt; DouglasKC; Campion
If I understand you correctly Elohim's Holy Word i.e. Yah'shua HaMashiach was correct for forty years, but is incorrect today because it conflicts with your eisgesis.

Not incorrect, rather fulfilled.

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. " (Luke 21:20-22)

The temple was destroyed, just as Jesus prophesied. The new covenant was established and sacrifices and priesthood were ended within the “seventy weeks”, just as Daniel predicted (Dan. 9:26,27).

How does this square with your belief that all scripture was fulfilled in 70 AD.

Not “all Scripture”, just those pertaining to the destruction of the temple and the end of the old covenant system, and the handing of the “keys of the kingdom” over to the new covenant leadership.

"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. " (Matt. 21:43)

“Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.” (Matt. 23:36)

Frankly, I’m not the one with the fancy eisegesis. Nor do I need to buck most of the New Testament as well as the teaching of the Church for 2000 years.

14 posted on 09/10/2007 6:22:18 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: XeniaSt
If I understand you correctly Elohim's Holy Word i.e. Yah'shua HaMashiach was correct for forty years, but is incorrect today

Obviously if you have temporal language, at some point, an event which a text foretells in the future is in the present, and at a point after that, it's in the past. That doesn't mean that the scripture is "incorrect," it means that it was written at a particular point in time which has passed.

Deuteronomy 18:15 says that God "will raise up" -- future tense -- for Israel a prophet like unto Moses. Is that event still in the future, or was it realized in time when Christ came, and therefore now in our past? And if God has now sent the prophet like unto Moses, does that mean that the Scripture was correct, and now is not?

Of course not.

15 posted on 09/10/2007 7:15:58 PM PDT by Campion
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To: topcat54; XeniaSt
Not exactly. From Paul's perspective "are" would be correct since the temple was still standing and the temporal/temporary Levitical priesthood was still ministering according to the bloody requirements of the old covenant, the covenant that was decaying and passing away.

That makes no sense.

In the first place Paul wasn't decrying the Lord's holy days. He was telling fellow Christians not to let others judge them in HOW they were observing them.

You MUST believe Paul was either a liar or stupid if you think he was telling others not to observe the Lord's holy days.

This is because whatever Paul was addressing in Galatians 2 had specific, identifying elements:

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

The Lord's holy days are NOT philosophy, but scriptural commands of the Lord. The only scripture Paul had was the "old" testament.

They are not "traditions of men", but holy days created by the God of the universe.

They are NOT "rudiments of the world", but holy objects of the divine.

Paul surely knew this. Do you think he was lying, or just stupid? Paul, who was under the new covenant, is addressing other Christians, who are also under the new covenant. You're saying AD70 was the fulfillment of the "days of vengeance" meted out against unrepentant Israel.

16 posted on 09/10/2007 8:15:10 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: topcat54
Paul kept the feasts while the temple system was still in place to win his fellow Jews to Christ, not in order to find special favor with God.

Nice of you to make up a reason for Paul's behavior. Paul and every other early Christian didn't have an "old" testament. Their bible said:

Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

Lev 23:41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute forever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.

Compare:

Act 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

Paul didn't tell his fellow Christians "I have to go evangelize in Jerusalem". He specifically said that he was going to "keep the feast".

Here too:

1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

He instructed Christians to "keep the feast".

Paul observed the holy days of Jesus Christ because Christ created HIS holy days. When Christ incarnated, he observed the holy days and Paul imitated his example:

1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Your explanation for Paul's behavior just doesn't match up with scripture.

17 posted on 09/10/2007 8:48:27 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Campion
If I understand you correctly Elohim's Holy Word i.e. Yah'shua HaMashiach was correct for forty years, but is incorrect today
Obviously if you have temporal language, at some point, an event which a text foretells in the future is in the present, and at a point after that, it's in the past. That doesn't mean that the scripture is "incorrect," it means that it was written at a particular point in time which has passed.

Again senseless. Paul was writing to fellow Christians. Paul and the people he was writing to were all under the new covenant. If Paul believed that the holy days WERE shadows, he had no reason not to say so. After all (according to you) the old covenant was over for Paul. Presumably (according to you), they weren't participating in any of the priestly services. They WERE shadows to him. But still, he said ARE. Why?

18 posted on 09/10/2007 8:51:20 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; XeniaSt
That makes no sense.

I agree that makes no sense if your presuppositions are pushing you in a different direction.

In the first place Paul wasn't decrying the Lord's holy days. … This is because whatever Paul was addressing in Galatians 2 had specific, identifying elements:

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Let’s not back up to verse 8 and miss the immediate context.

“16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”

Any unbiased reader would reasonably conclude Paul was speaking of the old covenant festival days, new moon celebrations, and annual sabbaths, etc.

They are not "traditions of men", but holy days created by the God of the universe.

Sorry to confuse you. By “traditions of men” I mean the traditions that are practiced today without any warrant from the Word of God. The fact remains that God’s has nowhere commanded modern day messianics to observe “feast days” apart from the temple and the priesthood and the land. They way you do things today are “traditions” since you have obviously ignored the “jots and tittles” of Moses’ commandments and replaced them with practices of convenience. (E.g., where does God in His Word allow uncircumcised gentiles into the Passover? Or perhaps your group does not celebrate the “passover” with gentiles present.)

Do you think he was lying, or just stupid?

Neither. I just think you do not thoroughly understand Paul and his zeal to tear down the middle wall of partition and the racial barriers that divided Jews and gentiles.

19 posted on 09/10/2007 8:58:23 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: DouglasKC
Nice of you to make up a reason for Paul's behavior. … Paul didn't tell his fellow Christians "I have to go evangelize in Jerusalem". He specifically said that he was going to "keep the feast".

You seem to have a very stunted view of Paul’s ministry.

“for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.” (Acts 18:28)

“And he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God. But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. And this continued for two years, so that all who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.” (Acts 19:8-10)

I’m curious, where exactly is it recorded that Paul made it to Jerusalem to keep the feast. It appears he was very busy evangelizing his fellow Jews, staying two years in Asia. It not even clear that he made it in time for Pentecost (Acts 20:16).

20 posted on 09/10/2007 9:10:59 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: DouglasKC; Campion
They WERE shadows to him. But still, he said ARE. Why?

Because, unlike you and your fellow messianics, and unlike modern Jews, Paul could actually go to the temple and witness firsthand, actual, live biblical rituals straight from the law of Moses, animal sacrifices included. They “are” shadows to him because they still existed in that day and folks could still be trapped in them from recognizing Messiah.

They are no “shadows” today simply because no one is able to keep a Mosaic feast according to strict biblical commands. There are ersatz feasts, shadows of a type, that some folks are enamored with.

21 posted on 09/10/2007 9:17:33 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
Sorry to confuse you. By “traditions of men” I mean the traditions that are practiced today without any warrant from the Word of God. The fact remains that God’s has nowhere commanded modern day messianics to observe “feast days” apart from the temple and the priesthood and the land. They way you do things today are “traditions” since you have obviously ignored the “jots and tittles” of Moses’ commandments and replaced them with practices of convenience. (E.g., where does God in His Word allow uncircumcised gentiles into the Passover? Or perhaps your group does not celebrate the “passover” with gentiles present.)

You didn't address my points.

These are the hallmarks of what Paul was addressing in Colossians:

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

The Lord's holy days are NOT philosophy, but scriptural commands of the Lord. The only scripture Paul had was the "old" testament.

They are not "traditions of men", but holy days created by the God of the universe.

They are NOT "rudiments of the world", but holy objects of the divine.

So you're supposition is that Paul was telling Christians NOT to observe the Lord's holy days. He was telling them that observing them was "traditions of men", "rudiments of the world", "vain deceit".

Was his audience stupid??? Weren't you just saying that during Paul's day that the holy days were still a shadow of things to come? That they weren't YET faded away, but would be in 70 AD? If that's so then they weren't celebrating "ersatz" holy days, but Christ created, Christ ordained, scriptural holy days and not "traditions of men", "rudiments of the world", "vain deceit".

22 posted on 09/10/2007 9:25:02 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: topcat54
Because, unlike you and your fellow messianics, and unlike modern Jews, Paul could actually go to the temple and witness firsthand, actual, live biblical rituals straight from the law of Moses, animal sacrifices included. They “are” shadows to him because they still existed in that day and folks could still be trapped in them from recognizing Messiah.

Where do you get this?? Instead of simply accepting that Paul celebrated biblical feasts as commanded in the only scripture he had you have to go through this elaborate scenario to project your beliefs back into his life.

They are no “shadows” today simply because no one is able to keep a Mosaic feast according to strict biblical commands. There are ersatz feasts, shadows of a type, that some folks are enamored with.

There are shadows. The sabbath is a weekly shadow of the creation:

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The feast of trumpets is a shadow of the return of Christ to establish his kingdom:

Lev 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation

Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Read the article for information about the oth.er holy days

23 posted on 09/10/2007 9:42:15 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: topcat54

Amen. I agree with your response to DouglasKC. There is no need for us to observe the Jewish holy days, for three reasons:
1. God gave them to the people of Israel. He never commanded Gentiles to observe them, unless they converted to Judaism.
2. Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection. When Jesus died on the cross, was buried, and rose from the dead, He abolished the ceremonial law (but not the moral law, which includes the Ten Commandments). [I realize that some of my fellow dispensationalists, and even some non-dispensationalists, will critize me for saying, “but not the moral law.”]
3. The destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. There is no physical Temple today because of that. Since there is no physical Temple today, there is no need to observe the Jewish holy days. We are under the New Covenant, which Christ ushered in at Calvary. Under the New Covenant, the church is the temple of God (I Cor. 3:16,17; II Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:19-22; I Peter 2:5).

Paul said that the Jewish holy days “are shadows of things to come” (Col. 2:17). Whether DouglasKC realizes it or not, those “things to come” have come.


24 posted on 09/10/2007 9:48:52 PM PDT by kevinw
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To: kevinw; topcat54
Paul said that the Jewish holy days “are shadows of things to come” (Col. 2:17). Whether DouglasKC realizes it or not, those “things to come” have come.

Let's look at it again:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Now you are interpreting this to say that Paul thinks that the feast days ARE shadows and thus SHOULD NOT be observed by Christians BECAUSE Christ is the reality that cast the shadows so there's no need for shadows...correct?

If this is not correct, what was casting the shadow?

25 posted on 09/10/2007 9:59:21 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: whipitgood; Diego1618; kerryusama04; XeniaSt; AnnaZ; Ping-Pong
    Hosted for free by: Pixilive

You have been pinged because this may be of interest
to the Sabbatarian/Messianic community. Freepmail
DouglasKC if you want on or off this list.

Add Me Please    Remove Me Please

I've started a ping list for sabbatarians, messianics. Let me know if you want on or off....thanks!

26 posted on 09/10/2007 11:06:01 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: kevinw; DouglasKC; Diego1618
1. God gave them to the people of Israel. He never commanded Gentiles to observe them, unless they converted to Judaism.

Yes, He did give them to "Israel" and where are the "people of Israel" today? They are NOT in the tiny Nation of Israel. Those are two separate entites. God wants His children to observe them and they do not have to convert to Judaism.

Paul said that the Jewish holy days “are shadows of things to come” (Col. 2:17). Whether DouglasKC realizes it or not, those “things to come” have come

Some of us will be in for a big surprise, won't we? We shall see........

.......Ping

27 posted on 09/11/2007 4:53:27 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: DouglasKC

Thank you for the ping and please add me to your list.

........Ping-Pong


28 posted on 09/11/2007 4:54:54 AM PDT by Ping-Pong
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To: DouglasKC; Campion; kevinw
You didn't address my points.

I did address your point, which was you ignored in immediate context of Col. 2:16,17.

Deal with that before you back up to verse 8. Or deal with them both together.

But to be complete, the greek word for philosophy does not preclude the view of the Jewish traditions and the Mosaic ceremonial law. If those traditions were keeping people in bondage, especially they were being used to oppress gentiles, then they constitute a "philosophy" or vain tradition of men.

I don't normally quote lexicons, but this may be helpful to you:

filosofiva - love of wisdom
used either of zeal for or skill in any art or science, any branch of knowledge. Used once in the NT of the theology, or rather theosophy, of certain Jewish Christian ascetics, which busied itself with refined and speculative enquiries into the nature and classes of angels, into the ritual of the Mosaic law and the regulations of Jewish tradition respecting practical life (Strong's Number 5385; The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon)
The entire tenor of the passage is Jewish, not pagan, e.g., the comparison of circumcision to baptism, the phrase “handwriting of requirements” (Mosaic code), “Let no one cheat you of your reward” (which is exactly what the Judaizers were doing to the gentiles).

So the context does confirm the reading that Paul was very much concerned about gentile belivers being overcome by Jewish traditions, the traditions of men (Just like today, it was very hard even for Jews to tell where the law stopped and the traditions started, nevermind the gentiles, who often got unknowingly caught up in the illusionary piousness of “lawkeeping”)

It is death to place oneself "under the law".

29 posted on 09/11/2007 5:35:37 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: DouglasKC; Campion; kevinw
BTW, I do not want this important point to get lost in your obfuscation.

I wrote:

They way you do things today are “traditions” since you have obviously ignored the “jots and tittles” of Moses’ commandments and replaced them with practices of convenience. (E.g., where does God in His Word allow uncircumcised gentiles into the Passover? Or perhaps your group does not celebrate the “passover” with gentiles present.)
Modern messianics, like modern unbelieving Jews, so not follow the “jots and tittles” of the Mosaic code in any way, shape, or form. They follow the vague shadows of that code according to their traditions of men filtered through 2000 years of history. They have radically modified that code to suit the fact that the Jewish temple and priesthood no longer exist and the undeniable circumstances surrounding that fact.

Messianism is the philosophy that is out to step with the Scriptures and the facts of history for the last 2000 years. Jesus Christ has come, and He has established His new covenant with His people, Jews and gentiles together. He has made us into one people, the true sons of Abraham. We are the royal priesthood and holy nation. He has bonded us together with a common spiritual genetics that has nothing to do with are our parents or grandparents. He has freed us from the very code that even the apostle Peter admitted was a yoke-burden that Jews themselves were unable to keep (Acts 15:10). (The same Peter, BTW, who ate and lived like a gentile until the Judaizers appeared in Galatia, and was opposed by Paul for his hypocrisy.)

So the next time you quote Matt. 5:18 against those who see no place for the Mosaic ceremonies in the new covenant, just look carefully at the “jots and tittles” and think about whether you are truly keeping “the least of these commandments” according to God’s Holy revelation or according to your own imagination.

30 posted on 09/11/2007 5:54:08 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
BTW, I do not want this important point to get lost in your obfuscation. I wrote: They way you do things today are “traditions” since you have obviously ignored the “jots and tittles” of Moses’ commandments and replaced them with practies of convenience. (E.g., where does God in His Word allow uncircumcised gentiles into the Passover? Or perhaps your group does not celebrate the “passover” with gentiles present.)

I believe the new testament is inspired scripture. There is an unequivocal Godly action and discussion throughout NT scripture that under the new covenant circumcision is not a requirement to enter into the Israel of God.

Modern messianics, like modern unbelieving Jews, so not follow the “jots and tittles” of the Mosaic code in any way, shape, or form. They follow the vague shadows of that code according to their traditions of men filtered through 2000 years of history. They have radically modified that code to suit the fact that the Jewish temple and priesthood no longer exist and the undeniable circumstances surrounding that fact.

Poppycock. I would say that most messianic groups are well acquainted with the book of Hebrews and know exactly what has been changed in the law and follow that along with the biblical examples in the rest of the NT. Hebrews is pretty clear and it mentions nothing about Christians NOT observing the holy days of Christ, our Lord. Indeed Hebrews specifically says that sabbath keeping (one of the Lord's feasts) is still to be done by Christians:

Heb 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Messianism is the philosophy that is out to step with the Scriptures and the facts of history for the last 2000 years. Jesus Christ has come, and He has established His new covenant with His people, Jews and gentiles together. He has made us into one people, the true sons of Abraham.

I don't consider myself a messianic jew, but either a natural Israelite or gentile baptized into the body of Christ.

We are the royal priesthood and holy nation. He has bonded us together with a common spiritual genetics that has nothing to do with are our parents or grandparents. He has freed us from the very code that even the apostle Peter admitted was a yoke-burden that Jews themselves were unable to keep (Acts 15:10). (The same Peter, BTW, who ate and lived like a gentile until the Judaizers appeared in Galatia, and was opposed by Paul for his hypocrisy.)

And this is where your confusion lies. You believe obedience to the Lord is forbidden IF the appearance is that the "law" is being kept. You cannot fathom that the indwelling spirit of Christ should lead one to let that spirit LIVE our lives. Christ created HIS own holy days! They ARE his. They were created for a reason that he knows well. He WILL lead us to observe them IF we yield to his will because they benefit us, his creation.

You also tend to confuse non-scriptural tenets and traditions of the Jewish religion with scriptural injunctions. For example, you just said:

"He has freed us from the very code that even the apostle Peter admitted was a yoke-burden that Jews themselves were unable to keep (Acts 15:10). (The same Peter, BTW, who ate and lived like a gentile until the Judaizers appeared in Galatia, and was opposed by Paul for his hypocrisy.)"

Clearly you don't understand that there is nothing in scripture that says Peter couldn't eat and associate with gentiles. But it WAS (and still is in some forms of Judaism) that the very act of being in a gentile house would make you unclean. That's NOT in scripture and that's why Peter was chastised.

31 posted on 09/11/2007 7:03:21 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: topcat54
I did address your point, which was you ignored in immediate context of Col. 2:16,17.

How about taking a shot at post 25? I'm still confused about what you believe this is saying.

32 posted on 09/11/2007 7:06:22 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
Very interesting --- thanks for the post. Clearly the Feasts of Trumpets, Yom Kippur, and Tabernacles have yet to see their NT fulfillment.

Interestingly enough Yom Kippur is the only one of the three left that really requires the presence of the High Priest and the Temple ---both of which are on the horizon.

33 posted on 09/11/2007 7:23:59 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: DouglasKC; Campion; kevinw
I believe the new testament is inspired scripture.

And where in the NT are you commanded by God to set aside Exodus 12:43-45 and eat the “passover” with uncircumcised gentiles?

Poppycock. I would say that most messianic groups are well acquainted with the book of Hebrews and know exactly what has been changed in the law and follow that along with the biblical examples in the rest of the NT.

Obviously they do not if they are still following practices defined by the Levitical priesthood which were only appropriate while the temple was standing in Jerusalem. That system decayed and passed away. You cannot separate the Levitical feasts from the sacrificial system, since there is absolutely no warrant in the Word to do so. That is a late tradition of men, but is denied by the substance of Hebrews.

I don't consider myself a messianic jew, but either a natural Israelite or gentile baptized into the body of Christ.

I do not know what that means.

Clearly you don't understand that there is nothing in scripture that says Peter couldn't eat and associate with gentiles. But it WAS (and still is in some forms of Judaism) that the very act of being in a gentile house would make you unclean. That's NOT in scripture and that's why Peter was chastised.

Actually, you are wrong. Paul says that Peter was living “as a gentile”, not merely with gentiles.

“14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?” (Gal. 2)

Peter, at least when he was in Galatia, recognized his freedom in Christ to eat or not eat “kosher” as the circumstances dictated (based on his experience in Acts 10). He could live like a gentile if he wished. He was no longer bound by the ceremonial requirements of the Mosaic code. Notice that Paul never chastised Peter for eating gentile food. He opposed him for his hypocrisy when he withdrew from the gentiles at the appearance of the Judaizers from Jerusalem.

34 posted on 09/11/2007 8:21:20 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: DouglasKC; Campion; kevinw
How about taking a shot at post 25? I'm still confused about what you believe this is saying.

What is confusing? Paul is speaking metaphorically, and is using language similar to what we see in places like Heb. 8:5 and 10:1. Just as the earthly temple was a “copy or shadow” ( skiav) of the heavenly, so too the ceremonials were a mere shadow of Christ. Once the true temple of God appeared, then the earthly temple was destroyed by God. The “shadow” of the temple no longer exists (it was obliterated by God in AD70) because the substance (Christ Himself, John 2:16, and the Church; 1 Cor. 3:16,17; 2 Cor. 6:16) has appeared. The same is true of the “shadow” of the ceremonials. The substance, Christ, has appeared so the shadow no longer exists, having been overcome by the glory of His appearing. The copy cannot exist in the presence of the reality.

35 posted on 09/11/2007 8:35:53 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
And where in the NT are you commanded by God to set aside Exodus 12:43-45 and eat the “passover” with uncircumcised gentiles?

\ God gave his holy spirit to uncircumcised gentiles. Paul taught:

1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

So where do you read that we are to forget and ignore the holy days of our Lord?

You cannot separate the Levitical feasts from the sacrificial system, since there is absolutely no warrant in the Word to do so. That is a late tradition of men, but is denied by the substance of Hebrews.

Paul had no problem with it. He recognized that a change in the priesthood didn't mean that you tossed out the whole of the bible. In Hebrews, it was SPELLED out what was changed. The book was written to let early Christians KNOW what the new covenant did. And the fact that it's documented that Paul kept the feasts is evidence enough.

I don't consider myself a messianic jew, but either a natural Israelite or gentile baptized into the body of Christ. I do not know what that means.

I don't consider myself a Jewish person who believes that Christ is the messiah. I'm either a gentile or a natural descendant of Israel who has been baptized into the Israel of God, into the body of Christ.

Actually, you are wrong. Paul says that Peter was living “as a gentile”, not merely with gentiles. “14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?” (Gal. 2)

There was a VAST difference between the ways a Pharasitical Jew lived and the way a gentile lived even without considering food to be eaten. They had, and still have, rules about utensils, kitchens, food preparation, how animals are killed, etc. Kosher rules developed by the Jewish religion covers MUCH more that what is actually in scripture.

Peter, at least when he was in Galatia, recognized his freedom in Christ to eat or not eat “kosher” as the circumstances dictated (based on his experience in Acts 10). He could live like a gentile if he wished. He was no longer bound by the ceremonial requirements of the Mosaic code. Notice that Paul never chastised Peter for eating gentile food.

Again you're mixing up scriptural with non-scriptural. Peter NEVER ate animal flesh that scripture defined as unclean. But the very act of eating a clean animal prepared by a gentile in a gentile home would have been abhorrent to an observant Jew.

36 posted on 09/11/2007 8:57:12 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: topcat54
What is confusing? Paul is speaking metaphorically, and is using language similar to what we see in places like Heb. 8:5 and 10:1. Just as the earthly temple was a “copy or shadow” ( skiav) of the heavenly, so too the ceremonials were a mere shadow of Christ. Once the true temple of God appeared, then the earthly temple was destroyed by God. The “shadow” of the temple no longer exists (it was obliterated by God in AD70) because the substance (Christ Himself, John 2:16, and the Church; 1 Cor. 3:16,17; 2 Cor. 6:16) has appeared. The same is true of the “shadow” of the ceremonials.

The substance, Christ, has appeared so the shadow no longer exists, having been overcome by the glory of His appearing. The copy cannot exist in the presence of the reality.

You're contradicting yourself. So back to "ARE". Christ appeared, was crucified and resurrected at least a decade before Paul wrote Colossians. According to you, the copy (the holy days) NO longer existed. Yet:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ

Paul doesn't buy your explanation.

37 posted on 09/11/2007 9:01:45 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

Bookmarked for later review.


38 posted on 09/11/2007 9:11:56 AM PDT by RachelFaith (Doing NOTHING... about the illegals already here IS Amnesty !!)
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To: DouglasKC; Campion; kevinw
God gave his holy spirit to uncircumcised gentiles.

So?? Where did God say that gentiles who are circumcised only in their heart may attend to the “passover”? I do not read that anywhere in the Mosaic code. This seems to be another tradition of men based purely on circumstances.

So where do you read that we are to forget and ignore the holy days of our Lord?

We do not ignore them. We see them as fulfilled perfectly and obediently in Christ. When we celebrate Christ’s work we celebrate all to which the Mosaic feasts pointed.

And we do not pretend that keeping such ersatz feast days as are common today in any way fulfills the command of God. Such pretentiousness has no warrant in Scripture. It is a vain sort of thing based on zeal without knowledge.

So where do you read that we are to forget and ignore the holy days of our Lord?

You seem to be missing the purely spiritual nature of 1 Cor. 5:7,8. First of all, it says that Christ is our Passover. He is the one to Whom the Mosaic Passover pointed. The Mosaic Passover was the shadow and Christ is the substance.

Second, it tells us how to keep this “feast” (i.e., Christ our Passover), with the “unleavened bread of sincerity and truth”. Paul is not speaking at all about the old ceremonies with animal sacrifices and physically unleavened bread. He is speaking spiritually of how we are to approach the throne of Christ. He is our Passover. We do not need to keep the “passover” of men.

We see similar spiritual language by Paul in places like Romans 12:1, “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.”

Peter NEVER ate animal flesh that scripture defined as unclean.

That’s exactly what Paul said he did. You can disagree with Paul if you wish, but his words could not be plainer. Why don’t you deal with the actual text and explain it to us.

39 posted on 09/11/2007 11:25:39 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: DouglasKC; Campion; kevinw
You're contradicting yourself.

Not at all. I’m merely disagreeing with your flawed interpretation of the text at hand. It is quite plain, and try as you might to explain away Paul’s wring in our past about things in his present saying “are”, the substance of Col 2:17,18 stands. Those who follow the Mosaic code and trouble other with the same are living “under the law” and are self-condemned.

Paul lived in a world that we do not live in today. Paul lived in a world caught between two covenants. The old was decayed and fading away, and the new was being established in the Church by the blood of Christ.

Just as Israel wandered in the wilderness as the generation who sinned against God at Sinai were purged, so the generation of Jesus’ contemporary Jews in Judea were being purged. The righteous became Christians and entered into the Body adopting practices consistent with a new nation made up of both Jews and gentiles. The unrighteous were judged for their treatment of the son of the Landowner.

The old covenant system was finally and forever destroyed in AD70 with the destruction of the temple. Those who wish to live by old covenant ways are simply living in the past.

40 posted on 09/11/2007 11:36:15 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
God gave his holy spirit to uncircumcised gentiles.
So?? Where did God say that gentiles who are circumcised only in their heart may attend to the “passover”? I do not read that anywhere in the Mosaic code. This seems to be another tradition of men based purely on circumstances.

You don't believe Paul had authority from Christ to allow uncircumcised gentiles to take the Lord's supper?

We do not ignore them. We see them as fulfilled perfectly and obediently in Christ. When we celebrate Christ’s work we celebrate all to which the Mosaic feasts pointed.

That's nice. Not scriptural, but a nice way to feel good about not obeying the Lord.

You seem to be missing the purely spiritual nature of 1 Cor. 5:7,8. First of all, it says that Christ is our Passover. He is the one to Whom the Mosaic Passover pointed. The Mosaic Passover was the shadow and Christ is the substance.

Exactly.

Second, it tells us how to keep this “feast” (i.e., Christ our Passover), with the “unleavened bread of sincerity and truth”. Paul is not speaking at all about the old ceremonies with animal sacrifices and physically unleavened bread.

Exactly, except that physical lessons reinforce spiritual lessons. For example, honoring the Lord by observing his Passover reminds us every year of the sacrifice of Christ. Celebrating the days of unleavened bread by avoiding leavening teaches and reminds us to seek out and remove sin from our lives so we can have the "unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

He is speaking spiritually of how we are to approach the throne of Christ. He is our Passover. We do not need to keep the “passover” of men.

Not of men. But by recognizing that the Lord still has a purpose for his holy days it teaches us, it makes us his disciples.

Peter NEVER ate animal flesh that scripture defined as unclean.
That’s exactly what Paul said he did. You can disagree with Paul if you wish, but his words could not be plainer. Why don’t you deal with the actual text and explain it to us.

Paul never said that Peter ate the flesh of animals designated unclean by the Lord. Paul didn't even say that the gentiles were sitting around eating pork chops. All of this is just your supposition based upon projection of your beliefs back to biblical times. Pharasetical jews had established an onerous system of rules and regulations for dealing with gentiles. Nearly all were non-scriptural. To believe this requires that all you do a little bit of study about Judaism and especially of that period.

41 posted on 09/11/2007 12:39:23 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; All
What amazes me is how some are quick to point out that understanding Elohim's
Holy Word and recognizing and observing His commanded Feast days is soundly condemned
by those that have embraced all the non-scriptual Pagan feasts days like Easter and
Christmas.

Absolutely no understanding that Yah'shua celebrated Pesach, HagMatzoh,
First Fruits and Shavuot a second time with an enhanced meaning.

Leaving the Feast of Trumpets, Yom Kippur and Sukkoth to be left for future celebration by Yah'shua.

No understanding of the Feast Shemini Atzeret and its future meaning.

shalom b'shem Yah'shua

42 posted on 09/11/2007 12:46:53 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: topcat54
This is a more credible explanation of Colossians 2 in historical context:

Colossians 2:16 Shows Gentile Christians Kept the Holy Days

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come ..." wrote the apostle Paul in Colossians 2:16-17 (KJV). This passage is often misinterpreted. What does it really say?

Paul was combating a local heresy. False teachers had introduced their own religious philosophy, which was a blend of Jewish and gentile concepts. Their distorted ideas were founded on human "tradition" and "principles of the world," not on the Word of God. Paul warned the Colossians to "beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ" (verse 8).

These false teachers introduced their own rules and regulations for their idea of proper conduct (verses 20-22). The content of Paul's warning to the Colossian church strongly indicates that these heretics were the forerunners of a major heresy that developed into gnosticism, which is a belief system that holds that secret knowledge (gnosis is Greek for "knowledge," hence the term gnosticism) can enhance one's religion. Gnostics claimed to be so spiritual that they disdained virtually everything physical, regarding it as beneath them.

The false teachers in Colossae rejected the physical—the perishable things that could be touched, tasted or handled (verses 21-22)—particularly when it related to worship. Their philosophy encouraged neglect of the physical needs of the body to attain heightened spirituality. In reality, however, their self-imposed religion did nothing of the sort and accomplished nothing in combating human nature. As Paul wrote, it was of "no value against the indulgence of the flesh" (verse 23).

The Christians in Colossae obeyed God. They kept His Sabbath and Holy Days, and they rejoiced on them, following biblical instruction (Deuteronomy 16:10-11, 13-14).

The heretics condemned the Colossian church for the manner in which the Colossians observed the Holy Days. Notice that they didn't challenge the days themselves. It was the physical enjoyment of them—rejoicing and feasting—that provoked the objections of these false teachers.

Notice Paul's words again: "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding [Greek meros, meaning 'part,' or 'regarding any portion of'] a festival or a new moon or sabbath" (Colossians 2:16).

Paul was telling the Colossians to ignore these heretics' judgments and criticisms about their enjoyment of the eating and drinking aspects of God's festivals.

Rather than showing disregard for the days God established as holy, Paul's comments in this passage confirm that the Colossian Christians—who were primarily gentiles (Colossians 2:13)—were observing the weekly Sabbath and Holy Days of God more than 30 years after Jesus Christ's death and resurrection.

Had they not been observing these days, the heretics would have had no basis for their objections to the eating and drinking aspects—the feasting portion—of the Sabbath and the Holy Days.


43 posted on 09/11/2007 12:47:15 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: XeniaSt
No understanding of the Feast Shemini Atzeret and its future meaning.

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

44 posted on 09/11/2007 12:56:55 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; Campion; kevinw
This is a more credible explanation of Colossians 2 in historical context:

Why? Because it agrees with your views?

There is no evidence anywhere in the NT that gentile believers kept the Mosaic feast days of Israel. Nada zero zilch.

When the directives where given to the gentile believers from the broader church in Acts 15, the idea of keeping Mosaic feast days is nowhere to be found.

Paul had may opportunities in his letters to enjoin such behavior on the gentiles, but he never does . He had a perfect opportunity, for example, in 1 Cor. 11 when discussing the matter of the Lord’s Suppert (not “passover”), and he never mentioned feast-keeping. It’s hard to believe that the same gentiles who could not rightly keep the very simple Lord’s Supper managed to get all the detailed feast days of Moses perfectly right without the need for a word from Paul.

No, my friend, you thesis and the thesis of this paper does not stand up to the intense scrutiny of the Word of God. It is built on speculation and an innate distrust, even hatred, for the teachings of the Church for the last 2000 years. It is revisionism at its finest.

45 posted on 09/11/2007 1:09:37 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: XeniaSt; DouglasKC; Campion; kevinw
What amazes me is how some are quick to point out that understanding Elohim's Holy Word and recognizing and observing His commanded Feast days is soundly condemned by those that have embraced all the non-scriptual Pagan feasts days like Easter and Christmas.

I agree. The blindness of the Easter- and Christmas-keeper is matched only by the blindness of those who, during this new covenant era, try to live “under the law” as given to Moses for the people in the land.

1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, (Phil. 3)

11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off! (Gal. 5)


46 posted on 09/11/2007 1:20:50 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
There is no evidence anywhere in the NT that gentile believers kept the Mosaic feast days of Israel. Nada zero zilch.

There's all kinds. You just can't see it because to admit it would mean that you have to reject the philosophy upon which you've created religious views.

In Jesus time:

Joh 12:20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
Joh 12:21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.

There was no clear defining day when Christians began to forego observing the feasts of the Lord. But there were events that sped up the process, namely anti-semitism and the later prominence of the Roman church.

We know from history that as late as 365 AD council of The Council of Laodicea had to tell gentile Christians not to observe one of the Lord's feasts, the weekly sabbath:

#29: Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ. (Percival Translation [8]).

Paul had may opportunities in his letters to enjoin such behavior on the gentiles, but he never does . He had a perfect opportunity, for example, in 1 Cor. 11 when discussing the matter of the Lord’s Suppert (not “passover”), and he never mentioned feast-keeping. It’s hard to believe that the same gentiles who could not rightly keep the very simple Lord’s Supper managed to get all the detailed feast days of Moses perfectly right without the need for a word from Paul.

Sure they did because that was the normal custom for Christians. That's what they were taught from scripture, the "old testament".

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honorable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Act 15:21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

47 posted on 09/11/2007 1:29:20 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: XeniaSt; DouglasKC
No understanding of the Feast Shemini Atzeret and its future meaning.

All the feasts pointed to Christ. We agree on that. But that is not the issue. The issue is whether we need to keep on keeping all these decayed, faded, shadowy Mosaic feasts now that the Substance, Jesus Christ, has appeared and revealed Himself as the King of Israel and the Lord of the Nations.

The NT answer is “no”. The apostles and elders never enjoined such behavior on anyone as a sign of proper religious conduct.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.” (Gal. 5:22,23)

Nothing about law-keeping or observing feast days in there at all.

Do you live in the past unde the old covenant with the unbelieving rabbis? Or do you want to live with the new holy nation and royal priesthood as we celebrate and worship our Lord in Spirit and Truth in the simplicity of the gospel?

48 posted on 09/11/2007 1:29:56 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
I agree. The blindness of the Easter- and Christmas-keeper is matched only by the blindness of those who, during this new covenant era, try to live “under the law” as given to Moses for the people in the land.

Messianiacs do not try to live under the Law.

That is a misunderstanding on your part.

shalom b'shem Yah'shua
49 posted on 09/11/2007 1:35:15 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: topcat54
The NT answer is “no”. The apostles and elders never enjoined such behavior on anyone as a sign of proper religious conduct.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.” (Gal. 5:22,23)
Nothing about law-keeping or observing feast days in there at all.

How is it that those who observe Christmas and Easter do so? There's not ONE hint in the bible to do so. Not even in the old testament.

Tradition and culture is how.

In the case of early Christians there was tradition, culture AND scripture. That's where they learned to observe them. Paul didn't have to instruct them. They grew up with it.

Who instructs people to observe Christmas? Where is the training? Where are the people forcing them to do it?

50 posted on 09/11/2007 1:39:32 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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