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The Biblical Map to Jesus Christ's Return
Good News Magazine ^ | August 2007 | Jerold Aust

Posted on 09/09/2007 5:07:34 PM PDT by DouglasKC

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To: DouglasKC
And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:

I realize how you want to read the verses, but it simply says there were “certain Greeks among those who came up to worship at the feast.” It does not say these Greeks were worshipping at the feast, which is you’re reading. (Which would have been inappropriate for uncircumcised Greeks to observe.)

It may simply mean that Greeks traveled with Jews who were coming to worship, and these Greeks sought out Jesus. You are hard pressed to find evidence of Greeks (unless they are proselytes to Judaism) observing these Mosaic codes. Even the proselytes were not permitted to observe certain feast, such as Passover. Besides, it’s not even clear these Greeks were believers in Jesus at this time. They may have just been curious. Note what is written earlier, “Therefore the people, who were with Him when He called Lazarus out of his tomb and raised him from the dead, bore witness. For this reason the people also met Him, because they heard that He had done this sign”

You can not build a very strong case on pure speculation, esp. when all the evidence is against you.

51 posted on 09/11/2007 1:40:09 PM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
I realize how you want to read the verses, but it simply says there were “certain Greeks among those who came up to worship at the feast.” It does not say these Greeks were worshipping at the feast, which is you’re reading. (Which would have been inappropriate for uncircumcised Greeks to observe.)

lol. You are certainly stubborn. That's about as clear as it gets. Read commentators. Read history. Read other translations:

(ESV) Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks.
(MRC) Now there were certain Greeks out of those who were going up to worship at the festival;
(MSG) There were some Greeks in town who had come up to worship at the Feast.
(WNT) Now some of those who used to come up to worship at the Festival were Greeks.
(ALT) Now [there] were some Greeks from the ones going up so that they should prostrate themselves in worship at the feast.
(EMTV) And there were some Greeks among those coming up, so that they might worship at the feast.
(ESV) Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks.

There WERE gentiles who recognized that the Jews worshipped the one, true, God. These gentiles recognized that he wanted people to worship him in the way he specified. Scripture is full of examples of gentiles who recognized this. Nebuchadnezzer comes to mind. It's like you think that Peter, Paul and the rest totally scrapped everything they ever knew, including scripture and the example of Christ, and invented their own rules.

52 posted on 09/11/2007 1:52:17 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

Thank you DouglasKC. I will very happily read all that you send via the new ping list. And thank you for your very patient and scholarly defense of the Sabbatarian/Messianic point of view.


53 posted on 09/11/2007 1:55:05 PM PDT by whipitgood (Let's burn some MEXICAN flags!)
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To: topcat54; DouglasKC; Campion; kevinw

XS>What amazes me is how some are quick to point out that understanding Elohim's Holy Word and recognizing and observing His commanded Feast days is soundly condemned by those that have embraced all the non-scriptural Pagan feasts days like Easter and Christmas.

I agree. The blindness of the Easter- and Christmas-keeper is matched only by the blindness of those who, during this new covenant era, try to live “under the law” as given to Moses for the people in the land.

46 posted on 09/11/2007 2:20:50 PM MDT by topcat54

Now that you agree that Easter and Christmas are Pagan practices
introduced starting in the Second Century.
The Pagan Emperor banned all true worship of Elohim in the fourth century.

Where do you read in Elohim's Holy Word the Pagan practice of using only "Sunday" for worship.

Elohim created the seventh day of rest metaphor in Genesis.

It continues today as we are entering the Seventh Millennium, the thousand years of rest in Yah'shua.

shalom b'shem Yah'shua
54 posted on 09/11/2007 2:41:57 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: DouglasKC
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
55 posted on 09/11/2007 4:29:00 PM PDT by dan1123 (You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. --Jesus)
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To: DouglasKC; XeniaSt
You are certainly stubborn. That's about as clear as it gets. Read commentators. Read history. Read other translations:

I don't think it has anything to do with being stubborn. Most of the folks on this forum know scripture well enough to even know when they are wrong. The problem is.....they cannot admit this, as then.... their Catholic/Protestant, false foundation will come crumbling down......as it should, I might add.

The answer I can never seem to get from any of them is: Why do some of the Early Church Fathers (Polycarp, Polycrates and others) continue to celebrate the Passover, on the fourteenth as directed by Leviticus 23....late in the second century? From the Link: "Our author belonged to a family in which he was the eighth Christian bishop; and he presided over the church of Ephesus, in which the traditions of St. John were yet fresh in men's minds at the date of his birth."

Polycrates of Ephesus

John....the last living Apostle and the one to whom was given the care of The Lord's mother. Didn't he get the memo?

56 posted on 09/11/2007 5:42:28 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: DouglasKC; XeniaSt; Campion; kevinw
You are certainly stubborn. That's about as clear as it gets.

Assuming your interpretation is correct, so what?

These Greek were, just like the Jews, worshipping under the requirements of the old covenant Mosaic code which was still in effect at that particular time. Likewise with folks from Moses through David to John the Baptist (Nebuchadnezzer is a red-herring since he never worshipped at the temple).

All that changed when Christ appeared and instituted the new covenant. In the new covenant we no longer see believing Greeks going up with Jews to the temple to worship (The example of Timothy in Acts 16 is a unique situation, and Paul makes it clear his reasons for all the actions in that special case.). In fact, after the resurrection even Jesus never again appeared at the temple even though He was on the earth for another 40 days. The power of God ripped the temple veil in two, symbolizing the end of the system of temple worship was at hand. Besides, the temple was not a fit place for Christian worship anyway since Greeks were not permitted (Acts 21:29).

So there is a clear old covenant/new covenant delineation in the Bible. Over the course of 40 years, from the resurrection to the destruction of the temple in AD70, the people of God transitioned from old covenant worship to new covenant worship. For a time there was a bit of overlap. The Jewish believer kept some of their forms as a custom and in order to win their fellow Jews to Christ.

Many of the things that folks did routinely under the old covenant were not followed under the new, especially once the temple was finally and forever destroyed by God by the agency of the armies of Rome.

I think you have a hard time seeing this, and instead prefer to read all sorts on things into the Bible which are not there.

57 posted on 09/12/2007 8:35:32 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: XeniaSt; DouglasKC; Campion; kevinw
Now that you agree that Easter and Christmas are Pagan practices introduced starting in the Second Century.

That view has not changed.

The Pagan Emperor banned all true worship of Elohim in the fourth century.

Poppycock. Your spouting historical revisionism from modern day restorationists. Anyone attempting to worship by old covenant means was already condemned.

Where do you read in Elohim's Holy Word the Pagan practice of using only "Sunday" for worship.

Old stuff. Already answered. The seventh-day types have been riding this hobby-horse for too long.

It continues today as we are entering the Seventh Millennium, the thousand years of rest in Yah'shua.

Specuation.

Where's the beef?

58 posted on 09/12/2007 8:41:34 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
Poppycock. Your spouting historical revisionism from modern day restorationists. Anyone attempting to worship by old covenant means was already condemned.

By whom ?

Not Yah'shua !


59 posted on 09/12/2007 9:32:50 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt
By whom ?
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband." 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free. (Gal. 4)
Those who follow worship practices there were inseparably linked to temple worship fall into this category of following after earthly Jerusalem (Note that even Paul recognized he needed to return to Jerusalem to participate in “the feast” and Pentecost; Acts 18:21; 20:16). Those who follow old covenant worship practices are the children of Hagar by this analogy.

Paul’s entire emphasis in Galatians is that members of Christ’s body, the true sons of Abraham, not put themselves into the position of denying the Lord by the chasing after the things of the Law. Those who wish to merely keep the convenient aspect of the law are under a curse. As Paul says, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them" (Gal. 3:10). Unless you can observe the "jots and tittles" then you are under a curse.

60 posted on 09/12/2007 10:32:38 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: topcat54
Paul’s entire emphasis in Galatians is that members of Christ’s body, the true sons of Abraham, not put themselves into the position of denying the Lord by the chasing after the things of the Law. Those who wish to merely keep the convenient aspect of the law are under a curse. As Paul says, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them" (Gal. 3:10). Unless you can observe the "jots and tittles" then you are under a curse.

I have to correct your understanding of the law as it relates to the new covenant...at least for the benefit of any lurkers that may be hanging out.

There was a thread on Jesus's Teaching on God's Laws not too long ago. It answers most , if not all, of your erroneous assumptions.

61 posted on 09/12/2007 4:28:55 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: topcat54

Thanks for replying to me. I certainly appreciate your comments.

I am sure you noticed that in my reply to you, I mentioned that I agree with what you said. I disagree with DouglasKC on the feasts.


62 posted on 09/14/2007 11:18:13 PM PDT by kevinw
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To: DouglasKC; XeniaSt; kevinw
I have to correct your understanding of the law as it relates to the new covenant...at least for the benefit of any lurkers that may be hanging out. …

You can try it, but I think your starting presuppositions are flawed.

There was a thread on Jesus's Teaching on God's Laws not too long ago. It answers most , if not all, of your erroneous assumptions.

I get the sense here that you somehow need to pit Jesus against Paul in order to make your peculiar heterodox messianic teachings appear palatable in this sort of forum.

The fundamental problem for the messianics is placing folks once again under the law.

That’s obvious from the way they push their ersatz feast days even among the gentile members of their congregations. Some messianics go so far as to suggest that gentiles ought to be circumcised in order to fully appreciate and follow the commands of God. And we are not speaking her of the “do not murder, do not commit adultery” moral laws that are universal for everyone in every time. We are speaking of the particular ceremonial laws that were given to the nation of Israel for use while they were living the land, in the shadow of the temple, under the old covenant.

The messianics are truly between a rock and a hard place theologically. On the one hand they must see how all the particular old covenant laws given to Israel have passed away with that nation, while at the same time thinking they can be more pleasing to God if they try to follow these laws (according to the traditions of men) in the context of the new covenant.

63 posted on 09/15/2007 8:40:35 AM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: kevinw
I am sure you noticed that in my reply to you, I mentioned that I agree with what you said. I disagree with DouglasKC on the feasts.

Yep. Thanks.

64 posted on 09/15/2007 8:41:39 AM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: topcat54; Religion Moderator
The fundamental problem for the messianics is placing folks once again under the law.

This is a bold faced Lie.

You have been advised that this is untrue for years.

Please stop telling these lies.

These lies demonstrate that you do not possess the charity of Jesus.

ersatz feast days That is blasphemous.

Please stop in the Name of Yah'shua


65 posted on 09/15/2007 9:31:28 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt

Worship of God through faith in Christ has always been the same. Accordingly, I rejoice at the opportunity to worship by old covenant means which today, through faith in Christ we understand even more fully and directly.

Even the Hebrews who worshipped through faith in the Memra as in the Targums, worshipped through the faith in Christ, for the Word was indeed the same.


66 posted on 09/15/2007 9:38:27 AM PDT by Cvengr (The violence of evil is met with the violence of righteousness, justice, love and grace.)
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To: Cvengr
Worship of God through faith in Christ has always been the same. Accordingly, I rejoice at the opportunity to worship by old covenant means which today, through faith in Christ we understand even more fully and directly.

Even the Hebrews who worshipped through faith in the Memra as in the Targums, worshipped through the faith in Christ, for the Word was indeed the same.

66 posted on 09/15/2007 10:38:27 AM MDT by Cvengr (The violence of evil is met with the violence of righteousness, justice, love and grace.)

Amen amen !

Torah-observant Jews look forward to the coming of Messiah,
they just don't know His Name is Yah'shua.

I forgive TopCat during these Days of Awe.

I pray that he come to know Yah'shua and seek the face of Elohim.

shalom b'shem Yah'shua
67 posted on 09/15/2007 9:56:34 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt
Unfortunately, most every confession must debunk for seemingly the zillionith time the same false statement.

Witness how many times the Catholic posters believe they have debunked the claim that they worship Mary. And yet those who believe that they do are not convinced. And even if they were, the same claim would be raised again by others who are under that impression.

Unless a false claim is shown to be hate mongering - e.g. the fraudulent "Jesuit Oath" or the claim that "Catholics worship Mohammed's daughter" etc. - I will allow it be posted.

A good solution for this particular false claim might be to keep a standard rebuttal on hand to cut-and-paste with perhaps a sarcastic counter, e.g. "To debunk this false statement for the nth time..."

68 posted on 09/15/2007 9:57:51 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator
Thank you

Most often I do not engage this anti-Semitic hateful person.

His witness does not demonstrate the chesed of Yah'shua.

He will have to answer to YHvH for his walk.


69 posted on 09/15/2007 10:49:09 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: topcat54; XeniaSt
I get the sense here that you somehow need to pit Jesus against Paul in order to make your peculiar heterodox messianic teachings appear palatable in this sort of forum.

Not at all. Jesus and Paul taught the same thing. Jesus revealed truth to Paul personally:

Gal 1:11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

1Co 11:1 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

Now the example of Christ was to worship on God's holy days. How could he not? Their HIS holy days. Paul imitated him.

The fundamental problem for the messianics is placing folks once again under the law.

You have, at best, a basic misunderstanding of the "law" as applied in scripture. At worst, you are part of a larger problem, one that began centuries ago:

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

Unbelievers practice lawlessness, while believers are righteous:

2Co 6:14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness

Indeed lawlessness IS sin:

1Jo 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

And lawlessness is of course the hallmark of the end of the age:

Mat 24:10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
Mat 24:11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
Mat 24:12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
Mat 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

"Lawlessness" isn't about traffic tickets. It's not civil laws against murder. It's not about any manmade laws. It's about God's laws. The Lord's laws. It's an insidious rebellion against authority. It's an unwillingness to observe and obey the Lord. It's doing what feels right instead of what God says.

And we are not speaking her of the “do not murder, do not commit adultery” moral laws that are universal for everyone in every time

Glad to see that. Because you can't separate those laws from this law:

Exo 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 "Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
Exo 20:11 "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

The Lord, Christ, never "unblessed", never made "unholy", HIS sabbath or holy days. It took man, tradition and culture to do that.

The messianics are truly between a rock and a hard place theologically. On the one hand they must see how all tparticular old covenant laws given to Israel have passed away with that nation, while at the same time thinking they can be more pleasing to God if they try to follow these laws (according to the traditions of men) in the context of the new covenant.

Those under the new covenant don't have a problem honoring the Lord by observing his days. After all it's his spirit that is leading us to do it. However, some people are so offended by this notion and so eager to hang onto their pet theologies that they'll rally against the Lord's days and those who observe them.

I really do appreciate your posts. I welcome the opportunity to use your comments as a spring board to deliver bible truths.

70 posted on 09/15/2007 2:22:09 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
The Lord, Christ, never "unblessed", never made "unholy", HIS sabbath or holy days. It took man, tradition and culture to do that.

This really says it all! You can search from Matthew to Revelation and will not find one hint of scripture advising us to forsake God's Feast Days and Sabbaths. On the other hand, we find the early church still observing them and the Roman Church issuing canons to prevent their observance.....centuries after the Resurrection.

Who "ya gonna" believe?

71 posted on 09/15/2007 2:48:10 PM PDT by Diego1618
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