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The Biblical Map to Jesus Christ's Return
Good News Magazine ^ | August 2007 | Jerold Aust

Posted on 09/09/2007 5:07:34 PM PDT by DouglasKC

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To: topcat54
Paul’s entire emphasis in Galatians is that members of Christ’s body, the true sons of Abraham, not put themselves into the position of denying the Lord by the chasing after the things of the Law. Those who wish to merely keep the convenient aspect of the law are under a curse. As Paul says, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them" (Gal. 3:10). Unless you can observe the "jots and tittles" then you are under a curse.

I have to correct your understanding of the law as it relates to the new covenant...at least for the benefit of any lurkers that may be hanging out.

There was a thread on Jesus's Teaching on God's Laws not too long ago. It answers most , if not all, of your erroneous assumptions.

61 posted on 09/12/2007 4:28:55 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: topcat54

Thanks for replying to me. I certainly appreciate your comments.

I am sure you noticed that in my reply to you, I mentioned that I agree with what you said. I disagree with DouglasKC on the feasts.


62 posted on 09/14/2007 11:18:13 PM PDT by kevinw
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To: DouglasKC; XeniaSt; kevinw
I have to correct your understanding of the law as it relates to the new covenant...at least for the benefit of any lurkers that may be hanging out. …

You can try it, but I think your starting presuppositions are flawed.

There was a thread on Jesus's Teaching on God's Laws not too long ago. It answers most , if not all, of your erroneous assumptions.

I get the sense here that you somehow need to pit Jesus against Paul in order to make your peculiar heterodox messianic teachings appear palatable in this sort of forum.

The fundamental problem for the messianics is placing folks once again under the law.

That’s obvious from the way they push their ersatz feast days even among the gentile members of their congregations. Some messianics go so far as to suggest that gentiles ought to be circumcised in order to fully appreciate and follow the commands of God. And we are not speaking her of the “do not murder, do not commit adultery” moral laws that are universal for everyone in every time. We are speaking of the particular ceremonial laws that were given to the nation of Israel for use while they were living the land, in the shadow of the temple, under the old covenant.

The messianics are truly between a rock and a hard place theologically. On the one hand they must see how all the particular old covenant laws given to Israel have passed away with that nation, while at the same time thinking they can be more pleasing to God if they try to follow these laws (according to the traditions of men) in the context of the new covenant.

63 posted on 09/15/2007 8:40:35 AM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: kevinw
I am sure you noticed that in my reply to you, I mentioned that I agree with what you said. I disagree with DouglasKC on the feasts.

Yep. Thanks.

64 posted on 09/15/2007 8:41:39 AM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: topcat54; Religion Moderator
The fundamental problem for the messianics is placing folks once again under the law.

This is a bold faced Lie.

You have been advised that this is untrue for years.

Please stop telling these lies.

These lies demonstrate that you do not possess the charity of Jesus.

ersatz feast days That is blasphemous.

Please stop in the Name of Yah'shua


65 posted on 09/15/2007 9:31:28 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt

Worship of God through faith in Christ has always been the same. Accordingly, I rejoice at the opportunity to worship by old covenant means which today, through faith in Christ we understand even more fully and directly.

Even the Hebrews who worshipped through faith in the Memra as in the Targums, worshipped through the faith in Christ, for the Word was indeed the same.


66 posted on 09/15/2007 9:38:27 AM PDT by Cvengr (The violence of evil is met with the violence of righteousness, justice, love and grace.)
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To: Cvengr
Worship of God through faith in Christ has always been the same. Accordingly, I rejoice at the opportunity to worship by old covenant means which today, through faith in Christ we understand even more fully and directly.

Even the Hebrews who worshipped through faith in the Memra as in the Targums, worshipped through the faith in Christ, for the Word was indeed the same.

66 posted on 09/15/2007 10:38:27 AM MDT by Cvengr (The violence of evil is met with the violence of righteousness, justice, love and grace.)

Amen amen !

Torah-observant Jews look forward to the coming of Messiah,
they just don't know His Name is Yah'shua.

I forgive TopCat during these Days of Awe.

I pray that he come to know Yah'shua and seek the face of Elohim.

shalom b'shem Yah'shua
67 posted on 09/15/2007 9:56:34 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt
Unfortunately, most every confession must debunk for seemingly the zillionith time the same false statement.

Witness how many times the Catholic posters believe they have debunked the claim that they worship Mary. And yet those who believe that they do are not convinced. And even if they were, the same claim would be raised again by others who are under that impression.

Unless a false claim is shown to be hate mongering - e.g. the fraudulent "Jesuit Oath" or the claim that "Catholics worship Mohammed's daughter" etc. - I will allow it be posted.

A good solution for this particular false claim might be to keep a standard rebuttal on hand to cut-and-paste with perhaps a sarcastic counter, e.g. "To debunk this false statement for the nth time..."

68 posted on 09/15/2007 9:57:51 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator
Thank you

Most often I do not engage this anti-Semitic hateful person.

His witness does not demonstrate the chesed of Yah'shua.

He will have to answer to YHvH for his walk.


69 posted on 09/15/2007 10:49:09 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: topcat54; XeniaSt
I get the sense here that you somehow need to pit Jesus against Paul in order to make your peculiar heterodox messianic teachings appear palatable in this sort of forum.

Not at all. Jesus and Paul taught the same thing. Jesus revealed truth to Paul personally:

Gal 1:11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

1Co 11:1 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

Now the example of Christ was to worship on God's holy days. How could he not? Their HIS holy days. Paul imitated him.

The fundamental problem for the messianics is placing folks once again under the law.

You have, at best, a basic misunderstanding of the "law" as applied in scripture. At worst, you are part of a larger problem, one that began centuries ago:

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

Unbelievers practice lawlessness, while believers are righteous:

2Co 6:14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness

Indeed lawlessness IS sin:

1Jo 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

And lawlessness is of course the hallmark of the end of the age:

Mat 24:10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
Mat 24:11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
Mat 24:12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
Mat 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

"Lawlessness" isn't about traffic tickets. It's not civil laws against murder. It's not about any manmade laws. It's about God's laws. The Lord's laws. It's an insidious rebellion against authority. It's an unwillingness to observe and obey the Lord. It's doing what feels right instead of what God says.

And we are not speaking her of the “do not murder, do not commit adultery” moral laws that are universal for everyone in every time

Glad to see that. Because you can't separate those laws from this law:

Exo 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 "Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
Exo 20:11 "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

The Lord, Christ, never "unblessed", never made "unholy", HIS sabbath or holy days. It took man, tradition and culture to do that.

The messianics are truly between a rock and a hard place theologically. On the one hand they must see how all tparticular old covenant laws given to Israel have passed away with that nation, while at the same time thinking they can be more pleasing to God if they try to follow these laws (according to the traditions of men) in the context of the new covenant.

Those under the new covenant don't have a problem honoring the Lord by observing his days. After all it's his spirit that is leading us to do it. However, some people are so offended by this notion and so eager to hang onto their pet theologies that they'll rally against the Lord's days and those who observe them.

I really do appreciate your posts. I welcome the opportunity to use your comments as a spring board to deliver bible truths.

70 posted on 09/15/2007 2:22:09 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
The Lord, Christ, never "unblessed", never made "unholy", HIS sabbath or holy days. It took man, tradition and culture to do that.

This really says it all! You can search from Matthew to Revelation and will not find one hint of scripture advising us to forsake God's Feast Days and Sabbaths. On the other hand, we find the early church still observing them and the Roman Church issuing canons to prevent their observance.....centuries after the Resurrection.

Who "ya gonna" believe?

71 posted on 09/15/2007 2:48:10 PM PDT by Diego1618
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