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To: topcat54
Sorry to confuse you. By “traditions of men” I mean the traditions that are practiced today without any warrant from the Word of God. The fact remains that God’s has nowhere commanded modern day messianics to observe “feast days” apart from the temple and the priesthood and the land. They way you do things today are “traditions” since you have obviously ignored the “jots and tittles” of Moses’ commandments and replaced them with practices of convenience. (E.g., where does God in His Word allow uncircumcised gentiles into the Passover? Or perhaps your group does not celebrate the “passover” with gentiles present.)

You didn't address my points.

These are the hallmarks of what Paul was addressing in Colossians:

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

The Lord's holy days are NOT philosophy, but scriptural commands of the Lord. The only scripture Paul had was the "old" testament.

They are not "traditions of men", but holy days created by the God of the universe.

They are NOT "rudiments of the world", but holy objects of the divine.

So you're supposition is that Paul was telling Christians NOT to observe the Lord's holy days. He was telling them that observing them was "traditions of men", "rudiments of the world", "vain deceit".

Was his audience stupid??? Weren't you just saying that during Paul's day that the holy days were still a shadow of things to come? That they weren't YET faded away, but would be in 70 AD? If that's so then they weren't celebrating "ersatz" holy days, but Christ created, Christ ordained, scriptural holy days and not "traditions of men", "rudiments of the world", "vain deceit".

22 posted on 09/10/2007 9:25:02 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; Campion; kevinw
You didn't address my points.

I did address your point, which was you ignored in immediate context of Col. 2:16,17.

Deal with that before you back up to verse 8. Or deal with them both together.

But to be complete, the greek word for philosophy does not preclude the view of the Jewish traditions and the Mosaic ceremonial law. If those traditions were keeping people in bondage, especially they were being used to oppress gentiles, then they constitute a "philosophy" or vain tradition of men.

I don't normally quote lexicons, but this may be helpful to you:

filosofiva - love of wisdom
used either of zeal for or skill in any art or science, any branch of knowledge. Used once in the NT of the theology, or rather theosophy, of certain Jewish Christian ascetics, which busied itself with refined and speculative enquiries into the nature and classes of angels, into the ritual of the Mosaic law and the regulations of Jewish tradition respecting practical life (Strong's Number 5385; The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon)
The entire tenor of the passage is Jewish, not pagan, e.g., the comparison of circumcision to baptism, the phrase “handwriting of requirements” (Mosaic code), “Let no one cheat you of your reward” (which is exactly what the Judaizers were doing to the gentiles).

So the context does confirm the reading that Paul was very much concerned about gentile belivers being overcome by Jewish traditions, the traditions of men (Just like today, it was very hard even for Jews to tell where the law stopped and the traditions started, nevermind the gentiles, who often got unknowingly caught up in the illusionary piousness of “lawkeeping”)

It is death to place oneself "under the law".

29 posted on 09/11/2007 5:35:37 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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To: DouglasKC; Campion; kevinw
BTW, I do not want this important point to get lost in your obfuscation.

I wrote:

They way you do things today are “traditions” since you have obviously ignored the “jots and tittles” of Moses’ commandments and replaced them with practices of convenience. (E.g., where does God in His Word allow uncircumcised gentiles into the Passover? Or perhaps your group does not celebrate the “passover” with gentiles present.)
Modern messianics, like modern unbelieving Jews, so not follow the “jots and tittles” of the Mosaic code in any way, shape, or form. They follow the vague shadows of that code according to their traditions of men filtered through 2000 years of history. They have radically modified that code to suit the fact that the Jewish temple and priesthood no longer exist and the undeniable circumstances surrounding that fact.

Messianism is the philosophy that is out to step with the Scriptures and the facts of history for the last 2000 years. Jesus Christ has come, and He has established His new covenant with His people, Jews and gentiles together. He has made us into one people, the true sons of Abraham. We are the royal priesthood and holy nation. He has bonded us together with a common spiritual genetics that has nothing to do with are our parents or grandparents. He has freed us from the very code that even the apostle Peter admitted was a yoke-burden that Jews themselves were unable to keep (Acts 15:10). (The same Peter, BTW, who ate and lived like a gentile until the Judaizers appeared in Galatia, and was opposed by Paul for his hypocrisy.)

So the next time you quote Matt. 5:18 against those who see no place for the Mosaic ceremonies in the new covenant, just look carefully at the “jots and tittles” and think about whether you are truly keeping “the least of these commandments” according to God’s Holy revelation or according to your own imagination.

30 posted on 09/11/2007 5:54:08 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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