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Padre Pio and the Mother Co-redemptrix(CATHOLIC CAUCUS)
http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1128&Itemid=40 ^ | Sept 8,2007 | Fr. Stefano Maria Manelli, F.I.

Posted on 09/10/2007 6:18:13 AM PDT by stfassisi

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To: Alex Murphy; Mad Dawg

Take your sidebar about caucuses to an open thread. This thread is closed - and the materials you are discussing will result in comparing confessions.


51 posted on 09/10/2007 10:31:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: stfassisi
From my alleged POV, this co-redemption stuff is not necessarily so highly mystical as the author suggest. Which tells me I'm probably missing something important.

I would go with the line from Colossians (I think) where Paul says he makes up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.

Now that is pretty far out, and, it seems to me, at the basic theology level it is meaningless because NOTHING is "lacking" in the sufferings of Christ. His merit is all-sufficient, etc.

But still,l there are opportunities galore to choose to suffer for someone else's good. From a soldier who is killed laying down covering fire while his comrades change position to a young man getting up on a bus and offering his chair to an older person, to the closing of the book and turning toward one's child as he or she shares some important but incomprehensible crisis about what Jimmy said about his G.I.Joe doll or something of the kind -- all these are setting your comfort aside to enter, share, and relieve someone else's pain.

To me, entering into the suffering of Christ is, at one level, something so common we hardly note that it's being done.

But at another level, if you ask God to let you take somebody else's pain, and a few hours later you find that for no good medical reason every joint in your body hurts, maybe it's just arthritis, but, well maybe you need to thank God for hearing and honoring your prayer.

And finally, as the "locked-in" young man suddenly grasps the "miraculous medal" you just put in his hand, even though he used to be a Vajrayana Buddhist, you begin to wonder that maybe your depression, offered up, has joined with Mary's sorrows and Christ's suffering to work the opening of a soul.

I don't know, but that's the way it seems to me.

52 posted on 09/10/2007 10:32:19 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Religion Moderator; Alex Murphy
can I make a request - for those of us who dont normally participate in caucus threads, not understanding thier purpose, is there some initial description to be made in the first post or article body to detail what specifically is expected of the posters ?

my apologies for intruding earlier....are questions disallowed now, or is complete allegiance to the premise expected without asking why -

I simply asked for Bible documentation of Mary's immaculate conception

regards

rev911

53 posted on 09/10/2007 10:33:09 AM PDT by Revelation 911 (prov 30:33)
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To: DungeonMaster

In all seriousness, why can’t we discuss it w/o fighting about it? DO you know?


54 posted on 09/10/2007 10:34:52 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Revelation 911
For guidelines on the Religion Forum, click on my profile page. If you still have questions, please Freepmail me.
55 posted on 09/10/2007 10:35:11 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator; All
If you’d prefer, I can restore the link and the posts following - but the thread will have to be opened for rebuttal. Or you can find similar materials which do not contrast beliefs between confessions.

Don't bother,I will offer it by private mail to anyone who wants to see it.

I wish you a blessed day and pray for you to have the gift of discernment!

56 posted on 09/10/2007 10:35:48 AM PDT by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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To: Religion Moderator; Mad Dawg; stfassisi

My apologies for all for sidtracking the thread. RM, please feel free to delete my other posts. Mad Dawg, please feel free to ping me or FReepmail me if you wish to continue our discussion.


57 posted on 09/10/2007 10:42:25 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease.")
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To: Religion Moderator

fair enuff - thx


58 posted on 09/10/2007 10:44:39 AM PDT by Revelation 911 (prov 30:33)
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To: Alex Murphy

If it happened, it shouldn’t have. I noticed that on the second one, a poster named “rrc” was banned pretty much as soon as he/she posted.


59 posted on 09/10/2007 11:06:46 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Religion Moderator; Alex Murphy

I apologize as well. I hadn’t gotten to this post when I responded to #45. Please remove my response if it creates a problem.


60 posted on 09/10/2007 11:10:46 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Mad Dawg
In all seriousness, why can’t we discuss it w/o fighting about it? DO you know?

I don't believe that I ever "fight" about it but when the caucus flag is set then the likes of me are not welcome.

61 posted on 09/10/2007 11:34:46 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (John 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee?)
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To: Mad Dawg

I love your posts!!!!!!

I’m starting a MadDawg fan club. I am sort of like a stalker of yours, I do follow threads you post on and read them and either learn or laugh. Which is great because right now my son is trying to prove that he can fit his entire body under my rib cage while his sister fights for what is remaining of my lap. This whole motherhood thing, it ain’t for wimps.

Anyway, I love Caucus threads, because I can focus on the material and not the silly, repetitive arguments.


62 posted on 09/10/2007 11:49:08 AM PDT by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
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To: Petronski; Mad Dawg
I do believe that that Mary Co-redemptrix is going to become dogma in the near future. The fact is that the teaching has always been there through the Early Church Fathers

This is a very good article that explains this clearly
http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php

Excerpt
“The term “co-redemptrix” is properly translated “the woman with the redeemer” or more literally “she who buys back with [the redeemer].” The prefix “co” comes from the Latin term “cum” which means “with” and not “equal to.” Co-redemptrix therefore as applied to Mary refers to her exceptional cooperation with and under her divine son Jesus Christ, in the redemption of the human family, as manifested in Christian Scripture.

With Mary’s free and active “fiat” to the invitation of the angel Gabriel to become the mother of Jesus, “Be it done unto me according to your word” (Lk. 1:38), she uniquely cooperated with the work of redemption by giving the divine Redeemer his body, which was the very instrument of human redemption. “We have been sanctified by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Heb. 10:10), and the body of Jesus Christ is given to him through the free, active, and unique cooperation of the Virgin Mary. By virtue of giving flesh to the “Word made flesh” (Jn. 1:14), who in turn redeems humanity, the Virgin of Nazareth uniquely merits the title Co-redemptrix. In the words of the late Mother Teresa of Calcutta, “Of course Mary is the Co-redemptrix - she gave Jesus his body, and his body is what saved us.”

We see this also through the writings from the Early Church Fathers right up til Pope John Paul and Pope Benedict XVI

Some writings

“The Virgin received Salvation so that she may give it back to the centuries.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (ante A.D. 450).

“Cease your laments; I will make myself your advocate in my Son’s presence. Meanwhile, no more sadness, because I have brought joy to the world. For it is to destroy the kingdom of sorrow that I have come into the world: I full of grace ... Then curb your tears; accept me as your mediatrix in the presence of him who was born from me, because the author of joy is the God generated before all ages. Remain calm; be troubled no longer: I come from him, full of grace.” Romanos the Singer, On Christmas 2,10-11 (ante A.D. 560).

O, how marvelous it is! She acts as a mediatrix between the loftiness of God and the lowliness of the flesh, and becomes Mother of the Creator.” Andrew of Crete, Homily 1 on Mary’s Nativity (ante A.D. 740).

“And who, after your Jesus, is as tenderly solicitous for our welfare as you [Mary] are? Who defends us in the temptations with which we are afflicted as you defend us? Who, like you, undertakes to protect sinners, fighting, as it were, on their behalf’?”-St. Germanus of Constantinople

“...trusting in her intercession with Christ our Lord, who though sole Mediator between God and man, wished however to make His Mother advocate for sinners and the dispenser and mediatrix of grace....”-Pope Pius XI

“Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the mother of all her Son’s disciples, the mother of their unity.. ..The Church recognizes in her a mother who keeps watch over its development and does not cease to intercede with her Son to obtain for Christians more profound dispositions of faith, of hope, of love. Mary seeks to promote the greatest possible unity of Christians, because a mother strives to ensure accord among her children. There is no more ecumenical heart greater or more ardent than Mary’s heart. It is to this perfect mother that the Church has recourse in all its difficulties.” -Pope John Paul ll

63 posted on 09/10/2007 12:30:20 PM PDT by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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To: stfassisi

See my post 18, I’m sorry, it was all my fault.

I bookmarked the site before it was deleted.


64 posted on 09/10/2007 12:38:13 PM PDT by tiki
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To: tiki
I’m sorry, it was all my fault.

Dear Friend,don't worry about it,there was is no harm done by your post.

Understanding our Blessed Mother's role in Salvation history seems to scare some people. This is very sad because they miss out on the fullness of Christianity.

I wish you a Blessed Evening!

65 posted on 09/10/2007 12:50:52 PM PDT by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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To: Mad Dawg; Alex Murphy; Religion Moderator

Man, you guys should have seen the old days before the Religion Mod!

What was funny was that a few of the most heated flame throwers actually liked each other somewhat (one was Catholic, the other Reformed). But both crossed the line to many times.


66 posted on 09/10/2007 4:55:32 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Religion Moderator
You can pull that comment, didn’t read far enough ahead.
67 posted on 09/10/2007 4:59:06 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: redgolum; Patriotic1

**Man, you guys should have seen the old days before the Religion Mod!**

Patriotic 1 and I were just discussing this about the (leftist) post about the Pope on the news forum.


68 posted on 09/10/2007 5:26:47 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Revelation 911
If I am not mistaken there are Scripture references here as well as testamonies from the Early Church Fathers on this thread.

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

69 posted on 09/10/2007 5:31:40 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation; DungeonMaster
One issue is that We Calflicks read the Bible very differently from the way others do. Others find typology ridiculous, for example.

Dungeon Master, a man of great virtue, piety, and motorcyle, finds in the sayings of Our Lord about "Who are my brothers...?" and "yeah rather, blessed are those that hear ..." a kind of pre-emptive stifling of Marian piety. TO me that seems akin to typological reading, but to him it seems as plain as a pikestaff. I read the Lord overshadowing the ark and I see a 'type' of Our Lady. But when I say so, some slap their foreheads and appeal with lifted hands to heaven against such readings INTO the text, as they see it.

So the apologetic problem seems very great, either way.

70 posted on 09/11/2007 3:27:50 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Salvation

Sorry, I can’t respond on this thread.


71 posted on 09/11/2007 4:41:08 AM PDT by Revelation 911 (prov 30:33)
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To: Revelation 911
Sorry, I can’t respond on this thread.

Sure you can. At least as I read the guidelines the option of responding like a guest in someone else's house is open to anyone. Caucus status does not, as I understand it, preclude visitors. It precludes combativeness.

I'm open to correction on this.

72 posted on 09/11/2007 4:53:54 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg; Salvation

I absolutely LOVE typology!!!! But as you suggest, we tend to see different types in the same(ish) bible. One of my very favorites is how Joseph, in Genesis is such an amazing type of Christ.


73 posted on 09/11/2007 5:04:38 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (John 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee?)
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To: DungeonMaster

Massive ponderous 10-4! It’s the kind of thing that could make a fellow believe in God! But let’s not go overboard here ....


74 posted on 09/11/2007 5:11:34 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Revelation 911
Can you provide me the references to the words Bible, Incarnation and Trinity in Scripture?

Two quotes that I'm sure that you or most protestants have never read.

"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Martin Luther, Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527).

"She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil." (Martin Luther, Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522).

75 posted on 09/11/2007 5:30:41 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: A.A. Cunningham

This is a Caucus thread. If I understand correctly, there is no mugging, either inbound OR outbound. A post like this could cost us Caucus status. If we are going to entertain visitors and expect them to act like guests, we must act like hosts, not pugilists.<p/Self-righteous rant off.


76 posted on 09/11/2007 6:11:01 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

I requested Bible references, thank you


77 posted on 09/11/2007 6:23:35 AM PDT by Revelation 911 (prov 30:33)
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To: Mad Dawg
It precludes combativeness.

odd, my original comments were not combative, only differing, yet they were deleted by the mod who considered them unsuitable for a caucus thread

That said, I will now abandon this thread and leave you folks to discuss your topic

78 posted on 09/11/2007 6:28:01 AM PDT by Revelation 911 (prov 30:33)
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To: Revelation 911
I'm beginning to think we have different notions of combativeness. (Combativitudinicity?)

Here's what I think - if you'll pardon the over-statement:

(See? Note the corny humor and self-deprecation. These are the verbal equivalents of hunched shoulders and lowered head -- submission signals. I once got out of a traffic ticket by adopting a submission posture like that. Instead of the ticket I got a warm fatherly lecture. hee hee hee!)

There are all sorts of phrases and (in real time, face to face interactions) gestures one can use to reduce the tension some kinds of questions seem naturally to provoke. Religion touches us at the deepest places, which accounts for the bloody fights on the religion Forum. When somebody "goes after" our thought about Our Lady, he's talking about a woman I love and have deep affection for. It's close to asking me to consider a challenge to my wife's integrity.

Consequently a rich, frequent, redundant, over and over again, repeated use of such mollifying phrases is better than a simple question, simply put w/o introduction. A positive statement and demonstration that "we come in peace," can work, while assuming that people KNOW your intentions are non-combative doesn't work.

As you know, my reaction to your original post was that it was a challenge, rather than a question, and my response was to suggest recasting it.

And, as I recall, (possibly incorrectly) the question was about the Immaculate Conception. Since the article is about the "co-redemptrix" issue, the redirection of focus may also elicit a kind of "startle" or "flight-or-fight" response.

After all, the whole co-redemptrix thing is controversial enough whatever Our Lady's sinful/sinlessness might or might not be.

Does that make any sense at all? Short answer: your intentions may have been peaceful, I'm quite eager to concede that, but the post "sounded" aggressive, which is not necessarily your fault, as such, but over which you have some control

(If I acted as good as I talk, I'd be in heaven already.)

79 posted on 09/11/2007 7:44:18 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: redgolum

There is this one freeper that when I see his/her name I skip right past the comments. I believe he/her hates the Catholic church.


80 posted on 09/11/2007 9:44:06 AM PDT by red irish (Gods Children in the womb are to be loved too!)
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To: stfassisi

This is also a wonderful resource for Mary under her full title of “Co-Redemptrix & Mediatrix of All Graces.”

http://www.catholic-pages.com/DIR/coredemptrix.asp

Lots of theology and discussion with scriptural cites.

This is very interesting:

“ORDINARY MAGISTERIUM ON MARY’S IMMEDIATE COOPERATION
IN THE OBJECTIVE REDEMPTION

by Fr. William Most”

http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/COOPRED.TXT


81 posted on 05/12/2008 2:14:30 PM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: OpusatFR
Thanks,Dear Opus.

I really enjoy Fr Most’s teachings and download the audio's off of Keep the faith .com

The people who knock Vatican 2 sometimes should realize that lots of good things came out of it regarding Our Blessed Mother.

As we see the attacks of on Our Lady unfold in modern times we can clearly see that the spirit was at work in the Church during Vatican 2 giving us answers to defend against the attacks on our Lady.

I recommend buying the book written by Cardinal Ratzinger(BenedictXVI) written in 1977 called Daughter of Zion,it's only 82 pages and is one of the best books on the Church's Marian beliefs I have ever read

I wish you a Blessed evening!

82 posted on 05/12/2008 3:17:41 PM PDT by stfassisi ( ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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