Skip to comments.A Question for my Catholic and Orthodox Brethren
Posted on 09/12/2007 4:06:00 AM PDT by beachdweller
This is a religious vanity post I suppose. I am a Christian raised mainly Baptist with some attendance at other denominations. I have, in the course of my life, had a couple of experiences of the intercession of the Holy Virgin for my help and Protection. I have also witnessed the Mass a few times as an outsider and felt drawn away from my Protestant identity. The order and sense of Apostolic succession appeals to me in the Church as opposed to the churches. However, my main point of confusion now is whether to draw close to the Roman Catholic Church, or the Orthodox. I feel questions about both, and drawn to both. I sincerely ask for advice. I feel unsure about the supremacy of the Pope (a great man) as opposed to the consensus of Bishops and the church. At the same time, while the Orthodox Church seems to have an unbroken link to Christ and a moving celebration of God, why is the RCC so much more numerous and successful. I see beauty and real authority in both, but am unsure which way to go. At the same time I am NOT trying to cause conflict among Christ's servants and ask that anyone responding be respectful of the other side. Also please, my Protestant brethren who may object to this subject I ask you do not attack me or anyone who answers in this thread. One last thing, I live in San Diego and any direction where to go for guidance here would be appreciated. Thanks and go with Christ.
And Latin? LATIN? Giddouddaheah! Maybe sometimes a Latin Agnus Dei, but that's it! Okay, really rarely maybe a traditional hymn, like Tantum Ergo. But heck, I knew that one as an Episcopalian. It's a classic. A hymn lasts for 700 years, it definitely achieves golden oldie status.
Even though Jesus is the one true light, still some bodies with no light of their own reflect better than others. They may all reflect but some more brightly than others. The moon, thought bright, has parts of its surface darker than others, but it all the one sun.
AS to thinking about or experiencing the care of Mary in the terms which beachdweller used, I know from my experience that she herself reaches into lives and brings people to a more intimate relationship with Jesus. I was praying the rosary off and on more than 20 years before I became RC and at least 15 years before I even considered it seriously. And I was given my first rosary and taught how to pray it by someone who was neither Orthodox nor Catholic.
So the evidence given of devotion and respect for Mary does not in itself suggest a lot of attendance at an RC or Orthodox Church.
If in the quote you give " a righteous man" may be a woman, then we're okay on the prayer of Mary availing much.
By the Assumption we mean that Mary is already in her "resurrection body", while, in our view, most of the faithful have to wait until judgment day to get their resurrection bodies. Do Baptists hold that the blessed have their resurrection bodies right after they die or before judgment day?
I thought I'd already attempted this response, but it seems I lost it somehow ....
Oh, and we never knelt at St George’s. Where I go now, we kneel a lot.
Major, genuine LOL...cuz I happen to love cinderblocks.
That Baptist would be a very poor student of Scripture which teaches that there are many intercessors but only one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus. There is a definite distinction.
ON NO! don't go there!
Not one link to a testimony, presentation audio, or even transcript of an after-dinner speech.
You're a sick man.
Heh heh heh
Well, I guess that depends on what you mean by 'intercessor'.
By this I assume you mean you were attending an RC church but hadn't formally joined. If not, how did you learn the rosary and what drove you to say it for so many years before going to an RC church?
If in the quote you give " a righteous man" may be a woman
Yes, the word 'man' there would certainly appear to be generic and refer to humankind, not to males only.
By the Assumption we mean that Mary is already in her "resurrection body", while, in our view, most of the faithful have to wait until judgment day to get their resurrection bodies.
Ah, I see. Well, I'm sure you know that Protestants don't adhere to that belief.
Do Baptists hold that the blessed have their resurrection bodies right after they die or before judgment day?
They believe (as all Protestants do that I know of) that we will receive our incorruptible bodies all at once. The only exceptions to that, of course, would be Jesus and possibly others that the bible specifically mentions. (Example: Enoch appears to have been translated or 'raptured' or whatever term one wishes to use.)
Non catholic services are, from my experience in Lutheran, Presbyterian, Vineyard, non-denom and several other, are praise and knowledge based. They all left me empty, nothing transcendent, no profound presence of the one and eternal sacrificial victim. Needless to say, I don't "go there" unless one of the extended family invites us for a wedding or such.
I found the book Upon This Rock - by Stephen K. Ray to very helpful in examining the topic of papal authority.
And I was given my first rosary and taught how to pray it by someone who was neither Orthodox nor Catholic.Then you wrote:
Actually, I went to "The Protestant Episcopal Seminary in Virginia", which was going through a Calvinist phase when I was there, and became an Episcopal priest in 1977. I became a Catholic in 1994.
I mentioned it because there's a lot of sort of under cover Marian devotion going on out there outside of Orthodox and Catholic churches. As to what led to my saying it, I would say that Mary became kind of a heroine to me when it hit me that she had made a very profound self offering and said a deep, "Yes," to God, and that led to her bringing Love Himself into the world. And despite my personal nastiness, I would like to say a profound yes to God and make an offering of myself to Him, and I would like to be a part of bringing Love into the world.They believe (as all Protestants do that I know of) that we will receive our incorruptible bodies all at once.
I copy. But do they get 'em "on the last day" or before?
And yeah, it had penetrated the thick cranium that not too many Protestants are on board with that. ;-) One of the reasons I put it out there was that someone recently insisted that we think, and that the doctrine claims, that Mary didn't die. So Somehow it seemed good to say what it DOES claim.
I checked it out yesterday but didn’t want to hijack the thread and I found what you found. There were free links all over the place. I wonder where the other person went to see what he did?
Not that it would have mattered to me anyway, I’m a Republican and I don’t think it is wrong to make a living. Ministers and priests are paid and supported and no-one bats an eye. Mr. Madrid is spreading the word of God but he still needs to eat.
We have some of his books in our church library and I know that we would loan them to a non-Catholic if they asked so it isn’t like the ONLY way you could get one of his books is to pay.
Interesting. Did that person ever tell you how he/she learned the rosary and became compelled to pray it?
But do they get 'em "on the last day" or before?
1 Thess 4:16-17 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Now here's a question: I noticed that you described her as "compelled" and me as driven ("... what drove you to say it ...). So, uh, what, uh, compels and drives you to think of those who take up Marian devotion as under some kind of compulsion? For me it's a great way to give some time to God, to think about the story of the Incarnation and its outcome. It's almost a luxury, I might say. It's really not the experience that those who oppose it seem to think it is.
Padre Pio referred to the Rosary as "that weapon", I am told. And Dominic wanted the friars to wear it at their side the way one might wear a sword. And I guess along with formal church worship, the "Divine Office", personal prayer, Scripture, and other study, I think of it as part of my armamentarium as I, well, walk this walk and "fight the good fight".
I have to go display some responsibility. backatcha later.
What do you think drives a Christian to do anything? The Baptists would say the Holy Spirit drives them to pray, tithe, do good works, etc. (Perhaps the words 'drive' and 'compel' have bad connotations in your mind and that's why you asked.)
Leading in these cases is more about enticing their will to comport with mine. Driving them is more about overcoming their will with fear or something else to get them to do what I want. A "droving" dog (that's what German Shepherds mostly are, but also English sheepdogs) work behind the sheep and drive them in a particular direction. The sheep move away from the dog because the dog "reminds them" of a predator. (And I have driven my sheep by hunkering down and staring at them.)
And compel has a sense of force, of causing something to happen despite the will.
So yeah, generally driving and compelling stir up negative responses in me, while leading doesn't so much.
Sorry computer problems have kept me away for so long, but to answer you yes I was raised Baptist, very Baptist, but have not been one for number of years now. I have spent time since seeking where I should be. Of course back then I would have spoken in different terms, but have learned new perspectives in my faith. To respond to your other comments, no I have no formal association with either the RCC or Orthodox Churches. I’ve simply felt gradually drawn in that direction and have investigated on my own so far.
Thanks to everyone for their kind and honest comments. They have really been of help. Sorry it took me so long to respond, but I have had problems connecting to the internet. I feel strengthened and know I need to be still and listen to God for the direction to take. I appreciated the fairness and gentle helpfulness of everyone’s suggestions. Thanks and God bless.
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