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Secret theological discussions with the SSPX in Rome?
RORATE CÆLI / Donec Ponam / Le Forum Catholique ^ | October 5, 2007 | New Catholic

Posted on 10/05/2007 2:15:46 PM PDT by monkapotamus

Secret theological discussions with the SSPX in Rome?

The Superior-General of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X (FSSPX/SSPX), Bishop Bernard Fellay, granted today an interview to registered readers of the French website Donec Ponam. When asked about the possible removal of the excommunications of the four bishops of the FSSPX by the Holy See, Fellay answered:

In my opinion, the Roman authorities have no grave reason to keep the excommunications. It is therefore a matter of political balance between the FSSPX, on one side, and, on the other, the Progressives with whom these authorities believe they must deal.

Meanwhile, a source at Le Forum Catholique brings the following report (startling, if confirmed):

Bishop Bernard Fellay has officially announced to the members of the FSSPX the establishment of a Theological Committee specialized in the study of Vatican II, which includes Fathers Patrick de La Rocque, Grégoire Célier, Thierry Gaudray, Alvaro Calderón, and Jean-Michel Gleize. This confirms the information coming from sources close to the FSSPX in Toulouse and to the Studium [the Dominican House of Studies in Toulouse] of the Dominican Fathers in that same city regarding long hours of doctrinal discussions which have taken place at a Roman University, in various occasions, between FSSPX theologians and Roman theologians, such as Cardinal Cottier - discussions which have covered the new Mass, ecumenism, and [episcopal] collegiality.

posted by New Catholic at 5:49 PM


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Theology
KEYWORDS: fellay; sspx

1 posted on 10/05/2007 2:15:50 PM PDT by monkapotamus
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To: Frank Sheed; Mershon; NYer; narses

ping


2 posted on 10/05/2007 2:16:40 PM PDT by monkapotamus
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To: monkapotamus
The rest of the comment on Le forum Catholique:

Monsieur l’Abbé Jean-Michel Gleize, professeur au séminaire international d'Ecône, est l’auteur d’une savante traduction du livre de Cajetan, Le Successeur de Pierre, accompagnée d’érudits commentaires. Monsieur l’Abbé Patrick de La Rocque, Prieur du prieuré de Gragnague, en Haute-Garonne, est le rédacteur du Problème de la réforme liturgique (éditions Clovis, 2001) et De l'œcuménisme à l'apostasie silencieuse, vingt-cinq ans de pontificat (2004). Ces nouvelles sont très encourageantes : ces discussions prouvent que le Vatican considère avec beaucoup de sérieux les critiques doctrinales de la FSSPX contre le Concile ; et du même coup, on peut penser que les accords qui se préparent "graduellement" ne masqueront pas les divergences doctrinales.

3 posted on 10/05/2007 2:38:14 PM PDT by maryz
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To: Pyro7480; monkapotamus; ELS; Theophane; indult; B Knotts; livius; k omalley; Cavalcabo; sneakers; ..

Ping! Icebergs beginning to melt?

F


4 posted on 10/05/2007 3:33:48 PM PDT by Frank Sheed (Fr. V. R. Capodanno, Lt, USN, Catholic Chaplain. 3rd/5th, 1st Marine Div., FMF. MOH, posthumously.)
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To: maryz; monkapotamus; Frank Sheed; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...
Bishop Bernard Fellay has officially announced to the members of the FSSPX the establishment of a Theological Committee specialized in the study of Vatican II

Does anyone have a link to this official announcement?

As for the establishment of a Theological Committee specialized in the study of Vatican II, I wonder "what's there to study?" ALL of the documents from VCII are posted on the Vatican web site. We can be certain, from all that we have read over the years, that the FSSPX has thoroughly read and critiqued these documents. What possible 'new' insights can a specialized committee learn from re-reading them again?

ces discussions prouvent que le Vatican considère avec beaucoup de sérieux les critiques doctrinales de la FSSPX contre le Concile

And there is the proof that they have read, studied and critiqued these documents over the decades and are now expecting the Vatican to positively comment on the FSSPX doctrinal critiques.

Nothing the FSSPX says, does or wishes, will overturn Vatican Council II. The Novus Ordo is here to stay.

5 posted on 10/05/2007 4:21:04 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer

“The Novus Ordo is here to stay.”

And they also said the traditional Latin Mass had been abrogated and forbidden.

Summorum Pontificum refuted that.

The Novus Ordo, as it is known today, is not long for this world. The next revision of the Novus Ordo, due in 2009, will change it very much from its current form. Subsequent revisions will continue to reform the reform until the “Novus Ordo” will look nothing like it does today, but an awful lot like the traditional Latin Mass with just enough vernacular to fulfill the actual written intent of the documents of VII.


6 posted on 10/05/2007 5:51:30 PM PDT by Mike32
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To: Mike32

From your keyboard to God’s Ears.


7 posted on 10/05/2007 6:38:05 PM PDT by pbear8 (Padre Pio please pray for Tony Snow)
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To: NYer

I agree with you about the N.O. being here to stay, but most likely, in the liturgical area, in a refomred and improved fashion (we all have our own ideas of improvements, of course).

What they are getting at here is the doctrinal discussions concerning the other issues from the Council that the FSSPX has had problems with: off the top of my head, I recall ecumenism, collegiality and religious liberty, not to mention some phrasings in Gaudium et Spes. What is encouraging here is that Bishop Fellay is putting together a commission to study the Council, sure, but also it is a convenient mechanism to begin a dialog with Rome over how to understand the Council in the light of Tradition. Transcedning the differences, one would hope, ultimately.

I am reminded again of the late great Frederick Wilhelmsen, a loyal Churchman but also one who wrote for “The Angelus” from time to time, and when asked why he did it, he would say: “Everyone else ecumenizes to the left, I am ecumenizing to the right.”

There are a lot of issues at play here, so I expect there will be plenty of suspicion and concern from al sides, but let’s see what happens.


8 posted on 10/05/2007 6:40:35 PM PDT by Theophane
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To: NYer
The Novus Ordo has nothing to do with Vatican II. The Novus Ordo was created separately and after Vatican II, and, if you read the Vatican II documents on the liturgy, it pretty much ignored them. In essence, the Novus Ordo did overturn Vatican II.
9 posted on 10/05/2007 6:46:42 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Mike32

When I go to mass I want to feel the presence of the millions upon millions of souls who have participated in The Sacrifice down through the ages. I don’t want some newfangled clean break. I want to be in that river of souls that leads to God through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


10 posted on 10/05/2007 6:47:21 PM PDT by ichabod1 ("Self defense is not only our right, it is our duty." President Ronald Reagan)
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To: NYer
Nothing the FSSPX says, does or wishes, will overturn Vatican Council II. The Novus Ordo is here to stay.

This is an odd combination of statements. The "Novus Ordo" has very little to do with Vatican II. The "Mass of Vatican II" was the 1962 Missal.

That battle has already been resolved in favor of a more generous availability of the forma extraordinaria.

What will hopefully come out of these discussions is a clarification of how some of the documents of Vatican II are properly interpreted in the context of previous councils and Holy Tradition. There is at least some ambiguity which arose from the Council.

11 posted on 10/05/2007 6:49:54 PM PDT by B Knotts (Tancredo '08!)
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To: NYer
"what's there to study?"

I don't know where you've been, but apparently quite a lot. About 99% of what I see written or spoken about Vatican II is false and contradicted if you read the actual documents. Apparently, Vatican II became completely irrelevant almost as soon as it ended. Almost nothing it actually said survived the end of the decade. I'm not claiming I know what to make of that, but I can't agree that Vatican II is something that is well known by virtuallu anyone.

12 posted on 10/05/2007 6:50:32 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: B Knotts

You beat me by less than a minute.


13 posted on 10/05/2007 6:51:36 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway

Actually, you made some very good observations which I did not talk about. Namely, that many of the documents of Vatican II were actually ignored, in favor of the “spirit of Vatican II.”


14 posted on 10/05/2007 7:05:00 PM PDT by B Knotts (Tancredo '08!)
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To: nickcarraway

Communists and homosexual infiltrators nearly destroyed her with the classic method of defeating a free society — using her freedoms against her.


15 posted on 10/05/2007 7:19:21 PM PDT by ichabod1 ("Self defense is not only our right, it is our duty." President Ronald Reagan)
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To: Mike32

**The next revision of the Novus Ordo, due in 2009, will change it very much from its current form**

I thought some of this was going to happen this year! Are there any explanations as to the delays?


16 posted on 10/05/2007 7:55:27 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Mike32

Welcome to FR!


17 posted on 10/05/2007 7:59:06 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: B Knotts; nickcarraway
>>Actually, you made some very good observations which I did not talk about. Namely, that many of the documents of Vatican II were actually ignored, in favor of the “spirit of Vatican II.”

+Like Latin is to be retained as the language of the Church?
+Such as Gregorian Chant is to have "pride of place" in the liturgy?
+Like girl altar boys, and remodeled sanctuaries, and removed altar rails that were never mandated by Vatican II?
+Like clown "masses" and dancing liturgies which were never suggested by Vatican II?

Bring back the Missal of 1962 as now freed by His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI!

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

18 posted on 10/05/2007 9:08:02 PM PDT by vox_freedom
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To: vox_freedom

Exactly. All that and much more.


19 posted on 10/05/2007 9:25:37 PM PDT by B Knotts (Tancredo '08!)
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To: NYer

What’s with “FSSPX”? For years, I’ve always seen exclusively SSPX. Given that FSSP is a non-schismatic, wholly authorized, truly Catholic group of Latin-Mass-devoted priests, which seems bound to explode in popularity given Benedict’s MP, it seems suspicious that maybe SSPX is purposely trying to sow confusion be adopting the name making its name more similart to FSSP. Are they trying to make people think, “No, wait, I think FSSPX is the legitimate one!”

It reminds me of jokingly trying to confuse people by refering to the computer company “Hewlett Packard Bell Labs” (back in the day of Hewlett Packard, Packard Bell and Bell Labs).


20 posted on 10/06/2007 5:28:23 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
What’s with “FSSPX”? For years, I’ve always seen exclusively SSPX. Given that FSSP is a non-schismatic, wholly authorized, truly Catholic group of Latin-Mass-devoted priests, which seems bound to explode in popularity given Benedict’s MP, it seems suspicious that maybe SSPX is purposely trying to sow confusion be adopting the name making its name more similart to FSSP. Are they trying to make people think, “No, wait, I think FSSPX is the legitimate one!”

Oh brother. Your picture should be right next to the definition of "rash judgement" in a catechism. FSSPX, or La Fraternité Sacerdotale Saint Pie X is the name of the society. It has been the name of the society long before the FSSP existed despite you never having seen it. The English translation is abbreviated SSPX.

21 posted on 10/06/2007 6:59:29 AM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: maryz
ces discussions prouvent que le Vatican considère avec beaucoup de sérieux les critiques doctrinales de la FSSPX contre le Concile

That's interesting. I wonder if this is Rome's way of sidling into a serious examination of Vatican II.

22 posted on 10/06/2007 9:17:42 AM PDT by livius
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To: Salvation

The USCCB intends to delay everything as much as possible - they’re fighting tooth and nail to keep the new (much more correct) translation from coming out.


23 posted on 10/06/2007 9:20:36 AM PDT by livius
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To: B Knotts; nickcarraway

I think it’s easy to say that VatII was good and then the evil “spirit of Vatican II” came along and ruined it.

But one of the problems with the original documents is simply that they are very vague, wordy committee-products that were not even meant to be very rigorous from a doctrinal point of view. VatII was a pastoral council, and in fact as such I don’t even think it had the capacity to define doctrine.

However, there was enough room in the original documents to provide every person with the interpretation that suited him best. And with the breakdown in authority - which I do think had much to do with the concept of “collegiality” in VatII - people just felt free to read these tantalizingly vague remarks any way they wanted.

I don’t think the initial impulse of VatII was evil. But I think something that needs serious consideration is to what extent evil managed to insert itself, via concepts antithetical to established doctrine (although not necessarily confronting it directly and by name, so to speak), into the documents of VatII and the Novus Ordo. The “spirit of VatII” couldn’t have gotten away with all that it did if there had been no justification for it in the Council itself.


24 posted on 10/06/2007 9:28:10 AM PDT by livius
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To: livius

I didn’t say otherwise; my point, I guess, is that if the initial intention had been to interpret the vague Vatican II documents consistent with Holy Tradition and with previous councils, none of the nonesense would have happened.

The vagueness merely opened up an opportunity to a modernist impulse that had been previously bottled up.


25 posted on 10/06/2007 9:47:39 AM PDT by B Knotts (Tancredo '08!)
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To: livius
I didn't quite know what to make of it -- how much credence to put in it. It's apparently an interpretation (by a partisan) of whatever "reality" underlies it. I would guess there's something there, but how accurate or, well, over-optimistic the interpretation is, I haven't a clue.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a clear (Dick-and-Jane level if necessary -- and it may be) statement from Rome defining what was intended by V II and what is over the line!

26 posted on 10/06/2007 10:02:10 AM PDT by maryz
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To: maryz; B Knotts
I wouldn't mind a clear (Dick-and-Jane level if necessary -- and it may be) statement from Rome defining what was intended by V II and what is over the line!

I think that would be an excellent idea. Also, while people took advantage of the vagueness to create their own interpretations, they found enough force in these docuements to impose their interpretations as binding. So it should be asked to what extent this in itself was an erroneous excess of authority (perhaps an authority they didn't have), and to what extent they actually did discover in the documents some less-than-orthodox statements that they could then use to support their authority.

I don't think VatII will ever be declared a heretical council, but I think there are things in it that definitely merit close examination and possibly could be rejected on an individual basis as heretical or at any rate leading to heretical conclusions. This is particularly true in the case of things relating to the structure and nature of the Church.

And this is without even getting into the destruction of the Mass and the radical change in the concept of the Eucharist that came out of VatII.

27 posted on 10/06/2007 11:01:58 AM PDT by livius
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To: ichabod1
I want to be in that river of souls that leads to God through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Wow - that inspires a lot of thought. I am attending my first TLM tonight.

28 posted on 10/06/2007 11:18:06 AM PDT by Patriotic1 (Dic mihi solum facta, domina - Just the facts, ma'am)
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To: ichabod1
When I go to mass I want to feel the presence of the millions upon millions of souls who have participated in The Sacrifice down through the ages. I don't want some newfangled clean break. I want to be in that river of souls that leads to God through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Your statement is one of the most simple,beautiful and true expressions that describe the immense value and awe inspiring effect of the Faith as preserved in the Mass. It also meshes the world we live in with the supernatural world that we live in,although too often,unaware. Thank you.

29 posted on 10/06/2007 11:31:30 AM PDT by saradippity
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To: Patriotic1

The TLM can be overwhelming at first. It is such an experience that you can feel a bit self-conscious at first. My Advice-get a good Missal (if you haven’t already). Angelus press prints probably the best lay Missal. They are an SSPX publisher, but most FSSP priests agree that their missal is the best for day to day use.


30 posted on 10/06/2007 12:11:50 PM PDT by rmichaelj
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To: B Knotts
The vagueness merely opened up an opportunity to a modernist impulse

I remember reading something about V II years ago that said the "reformers" had their agenda set and ready to push through while most of the bishops were "still finding their seats and getting used to the Latin." I wish I could remember where I read it -- it would certainly explain the maneuvering room that made it into the documents.

31 posted on 10/06/2007 1:02:19 PM PDT by maryz
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To: ichabod1
When I go to mass I want to feel the presence of the millions upon millions of souls who have participated in The Sacrifice down through the ages. I don’t want some newfangled clean break. I want to be in that river of souls that leads to God through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Please let me add my thanks to those who have commented on your brief yet beautiful description of why the usus antiquior is so infinitely superior to the novus ordo.

32 posted on 10/06/2007 1:28:12 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: rmichaelj
My Advice-get a good Missal (if you haven’t already). Angelus press prints probably the best lay Missal. They are an SSPX publisher, but most FSSP priests agree that their missal is the best for day to day use.

The priest who offers our local indult Mass uses the Angelus Press missal.

Many of the other missals printed just prior to Vatican II which you can pick up on Ebay use the Confraternity translation for the English version of the readings and prayers. The Confraternity translation is both pedestrian and less accurate.

33 posted on 10/06/2007 1:32:15 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: maryz
I remember reading something about V II years ago that said the "reformers" had their agenda set and ready to push through while most of the bishops were "still finding their seats and getting used to the Latin."

This is a very accurate description. I have a book published in 1969 called "Keeping One's Balance in the New Church" that says almost those very words. It was published by a mainstream US Catholic publisher to try to explain to bewildered Catholics why their Church was experiencing what Paul VI called an "auto-demolition."

The Dutch bishops in particular had a revolutionary plan in place before the first day, and they were then able to execute it. The US bishops were the ones trying to understand the Latin. Most of them were virtually illiterate in Latin, and I remember reading about one that just gave up and went home.

34 posted on 10/06/2007 1:38:06 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: Maximilian

Seems the Dutch are still at it! ;-)


35 posted on 10/06/2007 2:04:50 PM PDT by maryz
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To: Maximilian
The priest who offers our local indult Mass uses the Angelus Press missal.

Not to nitpick, but the term "indult" became obsolete on September 14. There are no more "indult" Masses, as the Pope abolished the need for indults.
36 posted on 10/06/2007 2:10:19 PM PDT by irishjuggler
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To: rmichaelj
"The TLM can be overwhelming at first. It is such an experience that you can feel a bit self-conscious at first. My Advice-get a good Missal (if you haven’t already). Angelus press prints probably the best lay Missal. They are an SSPX publisher, but most FSSP priests agree that their missal is the best for day to day use."

While looking for confirmation of the above news, I found a .pdf pamphlet for following the mass at the Dici site.

"For the new faithful who wish to attend the Tridentine Mass, DICI presents this very practical edition. You only have to print the pages of the pdf file, and fold them into to obtain a pamphlet. On the left page, you have the Latin text, on the right page, the English translation.

This pamphlet provides only the ordinary of the Mass, and is not meant to replace a complete missal, but it can prove useful as an introduction to the traditional liturgy. Download the pdf file"


37 posted on 10/06/2007 2:51:01 PM PDT by monkapotamus
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To: maryz
Seems the Dutch are still at it! ;-)

These days the church in Holland has nearly ceased to exist, but you are correct that the Dutch bishops didn't stop with their revolutionary plan for subverting Vatican II. Among other things, a short time after Vatican II they released the "Dutch Catechism." This was a neutron bomb of a book, destroying the faith of countless millions of former Catholics.

The 1969 book I mentioned previously, "Keeping your Balance in the New Church," is a very middle-of-the-road presentation of the crisis in the Church at that time. But the "Dutch Catechism" was too much even for that moderate priest-author. He devotes a whole chapter to excoriating the "Dutch Catechism" as pure unadulterated heresy. Even going beyond heresy, its tended towards agnosticsm regarding the entire content of the faith such as the virgin birth and divinity of Christ.

38 posted on 10/06/2007 6:15:16 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: vox_freedom; Canticle_of_Deborah
regarding long hours of doctrinal discussions which have taken place at a Roman University, in various occasions, between FSSPX theologians and Roman theologians

It is interesting that Bishop Williamson has signed his most recent communication from Albano, Italy, no?

39 posted on 10/06/2007 9:00:26 PM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: ichabod1

“Communists and homosexual infiltrators nearly destroyed her with the classic method of defeating a free society —using her freedoms against her.”

The hierarchy let us twist for decades. Generations of Catholics who don’t know what’s what. Catholics in some areas have no idea what the Faith stands for, ‘cause they weren’t taught. The most damning part, in my opinion, is that lots of Catholics never had a chance to really know the Church as it is, but only as it was(n’t) shown to them.

Freegards


40 posted on 10/06/2007 9:41:01 PM PDT by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed says Keep the Faith!)
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To: Maximilian

Thank you all in the Name of God. I started typing that, and I noticed it was good, and then I suddenly felt it wasn’t coming from me, but through me.


41 posted on 10/07/2007 6:22:03 AM PDT by ichabod1 ("Self defense is not only our right, it is our duty." President Ronald Reagan)
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To: murphE; Canticle_of_Deborah
It is interesting that Bishop Williamson has signed his most recent communication from Albano, Italy, no?

True. More interesting would be the leavening influence of four bishops brought back into full participation.
If the timing and conditions are right, may God grant that blessing to the Church sooner rather than later.

42 posted on 10/07/2007 8:49:16 AM PDT by vox_freedom
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