Posted on 10/06/2007 1:23:35 PM PDT by Terriergal
An evangelical theologian is visiting several churches this fall refuting the common Christian interpretation of the Bible that Jesus and Scripture opposes homosexuality.
Sat, Oct. 06, 2007 Posted: 09:44:38 AM EST
An evangelical theologian is visiting several churches this fall refuting the common Christian interpretation of the Bible that Jesus and Scripture opposes homosexuality.
Jack Rogers, professor of Theology Emeritus at San Francisco Theological Seminary, is trying to get a positive word out in the Christian churches about the gay and lesbian community and thinks churches should be leading the charge for their equal rights.
“I’m trying to help people understand that the Bible rightly interpreted, which I would think is through the lens of Jesus’ redemptive life and ministry ... does not condemn Christian people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered," said Rogers, according to The Lawrence Journal-World.
He makes that argument in the book Jesus, the Bible and Homosexuality: Explode the Myths, Heal the Church. The former Fuller Theological Seminary professor and former moderator of the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) launched his fall book tour last week and is currently making stops at churches and ministries to speak on the controversial topic.
Rogers says those who argue that the Bible condemns gays and lesbians are taking biblical literalism too far and feels there is excessively negative words in the religious community, according to the Journal-World.
His fall tour comes as Daniel Karslake's documentary "For the Bible Tells Me So" was set to release in Manhattan on Friday. The film supports homosexuals and presents the religious right as misusing the Bible to condemn gay people.
Amid increasing efforts by some to equate the condemnation of sin with the condemnation of sinners, conservative critics have expressed regret over what they say is a misapplication of Scripture.
"Scripture is God’s Word written," communications coordinator Jenny Noyes of the conservative Anglican Communion Network has said. "Man’s sinful mis-application of Scripture does not negate the authority or truth of it today.”
The Anglican Communion Network along with the worldwide Anglican Communion holds that homosexual practice is incompatible with Scripture. Most mainline denominations stand on similar positions but have been wracked with division as homosexuality has become one of the most hotly debated issues in the Church today.
Craig Detweiler, director of Reel Spirituality, a think-tank for pastors and filmmakers at Fuller Theological Seminary said Karslake's documentary "represents one side (pro-homosexual) of an ongoing argument, and the filmmakers seemed very interested in evoking a reaction.”
“I think film at its best starts conversations, but this conversation will continue for quite some time," he said, according to The Canadian Press.
Since his book release in 2006, Rogers has given some 60 presentations on the debated topic and a third of his audiences have been gay and lesbian people wanting to hear that God loves them, he said.
While more evangelical Christians have come to recognize the need to preach love to homosexuals, they say they are trying to meet that need – but without compromising the truth.
"Often Christians think that to love a homosexual is a compromise of their Christianity, that somehow their love would be misconstrued as condoning homosexuality," according to Christine Sneeringer, director of Worthy Creations, an Exodus International ministry – one of the nation's largest organizations dealing with homosexuality.
But Christians are called to love their neighbor, she said, and a Christian's message must balance love and truth – the truth being that homosexuality is a sin.
Ex-gay Tim Wilkins, a Baptist, also teaches congregations across the country that the Church has a responsibility to proclaim that homosexuality is a sin. At the same time, however, he tells them they have a responsibility to share the redemptive message of Christ.
"Homosexuality is a sin and freedom from same-sex attractions is available through Jesus Christ," he says.
Rogers, who acknowledges in his book that he has not specialized in the issue as a biblical scholar, says he did not always support homosexuality. It wasn’t until his pastor charged him in 1993 to be a part of a study at the church on the issue and after months of studying the Bible on matter of homosexuality that Rogers had a change of heart. And now he's sharing that change of his understanding with other Christians.
Rogers' next lecture and book signing is scheduled for Oct. 9 at Grace Covenant Church in Overland Park, Kan.
Lillian Kwon
Christian Post Reporter
Brian McLaren: What’s So Hard About That?
Dan Kimball and the Emergent Church Seeking Hard to Make Homosexual Sin not Sin
“Alternative Christian” Jay Bakker: Gay-Affirming Pastor of the Emerging Church
It may not condemn homosexuals, but it sure condemns homosexuality.
but it does condemn homosexuality
lol
What's the real difference? The Bible does condemn all sinners, homosexuals included.
John 3:17-19
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Tells you everything you need to know.
To go beyond that to claim that the Bible is neutral on the subject of homosexuality is an obvious lie that only people in a mood to live on lies, will accept. That includes most journalists and a fair number of church "leaders." Sad.
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It is so easy to attach the label “evangelical” on anyone, and then are their pronouncements are OK! Rubbish!!!
But it does condemn homoeroticism: first Leviticus prescribes death by stoning for one who lies with a man was with womankind (i.e. male-on-male anal sodomy), second, while revoking most of the cultic part of the Law of Moses, the Apostolic Council recorded in Acts called on gentile Christians to abstain from pornea (sexual immorality), and third the Holy Apostle Paul condemns those who misdirect carnal lusts to their own sex (including lesbianism, which had not been condemned under the Old Covenant law).
We can infer all of this from behavior.
Fornicators are definitely identified as bad ju-ju, and there's no soft-peddling that. "Gay" fornicators are not exempt!
“An evangelical theologian is visiting several churches this fall refuting the common Christian interpretation of the Bible that Jesus and Scripture opposes homosexuality.”
________________________________________________________________
“Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness . . . (Jude 3-4)
A common identifying mark of a false teacher is someone who turns the grace of our God into lewdness. Another description of lewdness can be found in 2 Timothy 3:5 which says, “having a form of godliness but denying its power.” They have a form of Christianity (godliness), but deny the power of true Christianity (true godliness). They deny the power that is manifest in a true conversion where the grace of God has saved a soul (Ephesians 2:1-5; 2 Corinthians 5:17). How do false teachers deny the power of godliness? How is this “lewdness” seen?
There are many who turn the grace of God into lewdness and basically teach that a person can actually know Christ, be saved, be on their way to heaven, and live in and practice sin without repentance. This concept goes against much of the word of God (e.g. Romans 8:1-14; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; 6:7-8; Ephesians 5:5-6; 1 John 1:5-6; 2:3-5; 1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 21:8; 22:15).
To say that a person can live in sin unrepentantly and still be saved (i.e. on their way to heaven) is turning the grace of God into lewdness (a license to sin). 1 John. 2:4 deals with this issue very clearly.
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 9)
Well... well... San Francisco!
Figures.
That's right...Every time God/Jesus appears to say something negative, we ignore it...There is no sin...We were born righteous...There is no Hell... There is no bible...There is no church...If there's a church, there's Christians...And if there's Christians, there non-Christians...Impossibility...
In reality, the Bible not only condemns homosexuals, it condemns theologians...
And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD. 22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Leviticus 11:9--10 King James version about eating shrimp:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat. 10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: 11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
The Bible is quite clear about these things if you take it literally: Eating shrimp is as abominable as homosexuality.
If you're not keeping kosher and following the Hebraic laws of the Old Testament, can you really condemn homosexuality?
No it doesn’t. 1 Leviticus is all about preparing Burnt Offerings.
Wonder if he thinks the Bible condemns any form of adultery?
I have always wondered how homosexuality has become such a big issue. Sure the Bible says homosexual relations are a sin, but it says that divorce and resulting adultery is also a sin. Yet, the focus is intensely on homosexuals in most churchs. I am not a theologian, so I don’t know, but I don’t understand how homosexual sex is any more/less a sin than premarital sex or adulterous sex. States frequently pass laws allowing divorce and even no-fault divorce and there isn’t a word from the churches, yet mention anything benefitting homosexuals and they are all right there.
However, God did nuke Sodom and Gomorrha 'cuz they wanted to bugger an angel, but it's unclear whether that was solely about homosexuality, or trying to treat one of his angels like that....
Never trust what anyone says about The Bible--read it for yourself! You'll be amazed at what is and what is not actually in there.
He is wilfully focusing more on the
precept of Love the sinner, it takes
precedent over hate the sin.
However, that does not mean, homosexuality
should not be condemn or the behavior
should be accepted.
Interestingly, there is one bit of scripture in this entire article. It’s all lovey-dovey stuff.
In the meantime, while the theologians fiddle, homosexuals are dying in their 40’s and spending their eternity in hell.
Those who love them will tell them that their lifestyle is killing them. Those who hate them will tell them to do as they wish.
Yet, God has sheep even among these. They must hear the Word of God.
1Co 6:9-11
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind (also referred to as homosexuals or Sodomites),
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
(11) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
What rights are people who engage in homosexual acts being denied? Oh, you mean the right to marry? They're not denied the right to marry, they can marry anyone they want as long as the other person isn't already married and is of the opposite sex.
The same conditions apply to people who engage in heterosexual acts.
That's as far as I needed to read, but I went further. What in the world kind of Christian publication is this that doesn't cite even ONE scripture?
Oh, brrrother. Do some research about Peter's dream, and get back to me.
Of course, with the 'effeminate' part, I feel bad for John Edwards--he's totally going straight to hell....
How does that obviate Leviticus? People use the laws in Leviticus to condemn me for having tattoos all the time.
So how did Peter's Dream make tattoos and not being circumcized OK, but homosexuality is still bad?
Don't go apples and oranges on me. Your post mentioned shrimp as unclean. Acts 10 makes a specific reference to "unclean" food, and paved the way for ministering to Gentiles.
So how did Peter's Dream make tattoos and not being circumcized OK, but homosexuality is still bad?
Try Romans 1:18-25 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 15-20.
'Romans' is in terms of 'corruption' and 'uncleanliness'. '1 Corinthians' is pretty clear on this:
"Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 12 "
Love the buggerer, but hate the buggery.... I'd like to see as much condemnation of extortion, reviling, adultery and effeminateness as there is of homosexuality. Let's not just get all hung up over the buggery and munchery....
Sorry: I typed "Romans 1:18-25" when I should have typed 1:18-28. There is NOTHING ambiguous about verses 25-28.
I'd like to see as much condemnation of extortion, reviling, adultery and effeminateness as there is of homosexuality. Let's not just get all hung up over the buggery and munchery....
You asked what made homosexuality bad. I showed you. If people aren't getting "hung up" enough on the other bad practices mentioned, that doesn't excuse homosexuality, does it?
Having said that, you sure don't see many 'theologians' trying to justify acts of extortion, thievery or drunkeness; but they are all about excusing the buggery....
If somebody is focused on the carnal, the flesh, they misunderstand the spirit.
Our life through Christ accepts Him through faith. Note how this is indicated in 1Corinthians Chapter 6. The emphasis is not upon how one will be ostracized for certain types of sin, but rather that our salvation through faith in Christ is not identical to the thinking processes and consequences of those engaged in fornication, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, revilers, covetous, drunkards, extortioners, etc.
One might consider the object of one’s thinking if one is engaged in the types of sin above as compared to what our object of thinking is when we are in fellowship with God through faith in Christ.
Each of the above conditions places something other than God as the focus of our thinking. Essentially, each of those conditions are a state of sin or living independent of faith in Him.
With respect to sexual sins, the body is not for the carnal or fleshly issues, but for the Lord and the Lord for the body. Adultery is explicitly mentioned as an aberration because there is a relationship between man and woman in marriage wherein they become one body. Similarly, the body of believers are the bride of Christ and there is a similar relationship or parallel in that analogy in future ages.
With respect to divorce, there are recognized situations in Scripture where divorce is allowed and properly so.
One fundamental of the Christian life, a life which is discernible and very real, very different than an academic understanding of who Jesus Christ is and was, very different than living in a cultural environment, very different than the association with religion, is the regeneration of the human spirit in the believer by God the Holy Spirit and the spiritual gifts each believer receives in this age.
Not everybody has the same spiritual gifts, and many never even fully recognize what their gifts might be, but they nevertheless do have very real gifts involving the spirit, very different than soulish gifts or talents, different than physical gifts or talents, very real, but discernible from the soulish person.
The sins mentioned in 1stCor Chap 6 give us some insight regarding the obvious discernment of those acting in accordance with their spiritual gifts through faith in Christ, and those who are simply living a very backslidden carnal life, void of what God has provided in the spirit, possibly even a false deception without any salvation or regenerated spirit whatsoever.
It’s sort of like discussing the spiritual life with somebody who rejects God has come in the flesh. That is an immediate indicator the person is only acting from soulish perspectives, perhaps from rationalism, perhaps from empiricism, but void of faith through Christ.
Accordingly, just as one should immediately question a church leader who habitually changes wives and sleeps around, or does drugs on a routine basis, or lives a live indicative of the carnal way of thinking being placed first above the life God has provided to the human spirit in the Christian,...likewise, a church leader who claims they are homosexual immediately tips their hand that they aren’t living by the spirit, and perhaps may not even know what the hell the term, ‘the human spirit’, means.
The Pastor of a church is a person who has a spiritual gift provided by God, the Holy Spirit, as a gift of Pastor-Teacher. It is a spiritual communication gift from a believer to a believer. It provides some believers the ability to discern what a fellow believer needs to understand in order to think in a fashion so that God, the Holy Spirit is free to inculcate faith into the student of Scripture. All faith in from God, but in order for that faith to build within the human spirit, the mind, and in the heart, precept upon precept, this communication process is involved. It begins with the Word of God, being communicated by a pastor to the believer, who then understanding it in his spirit, also understands it in his soul, in his mind, and then slowly forming into an outward knowledge, available for memory recall and application during providential testing.
If the pastor, who is selected by a body of believers to lead their congregation, begins to emphasize his nature as a homosexual, he is emphasizing his nature as somebody not using his gift of pastor-teacher. Perhaps because he is in sin and out of fellowship with God, or perhaps because God the Holy Spirit has never given him that particular spiritual gift. In either case, he isn’t eligible to perform the duties as a pastor-teacher as has been established by God Himself for His body of believers.
Even more fundamentally, any believer who emphasizes his/her nature as a homosexual, places themselves in a situation where they are emphasizing the old man, the natural man, instead of the new man, the spirit filled believer walking in fellowship with God through faith in Christ.
The same may be said of somebody who excuses their carnality by simply claiming that is their nature in any other sin. Liars may claim they’ve always had a propensity to deceive, just to get along with others. Extortioners will simply play games to create their own world independent of legitimate authority.
God formed man in body, soul, and spirit. The woman was formed from man. The union of man and woman reunites that which He has created. Marriage involves all three aspects of man’s anthropology and there are ramifications regarding the description of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus as the head of the Royal Family, just as the man is the head of the marriage and family.
Culturally, homosexuality is easily identified as being out of fellowship with God, just as perhaps somebody ten years from now might suggest they are natural born murderers and they kill people then consume their bodies as cannibals, because its simply in their heritage, and remotely this same behavior has been around for millenia, just hidden behind the curtain of public perception so as not to offend the public. If such persons “came out of the closet”, then claimed authority in cultural institutions, there obviously would be public outcry. More importantly, just like homosexuality, such an aberrant behavior still manifests a lack of perception of God through faith in Christ.
Uh, Jack Rogers is neither an “evangelical” nor a “theologian.” He is a former liberal bureaucrat and moderator of the lefty Presbyterian Church (USA). You know, the one Presbyterian denomination that is shrinking, not growing. He is held in unversally low regard by most Presbyterians.
Read Acts 15, it contains the answer to your question.
The silly shellfish argument is getting awfully old.
Methinks there is also confusion between philadelphia/epipotheo and pathos/porneo/eros/fellatio/orexis/epithumia/
Here are some other good verses:
James 1:13-15
(13) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
(14) But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
(15) Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 4:4-7
(4) Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship(PHILIA) of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
(5) Do ye think that the Scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth(EPIPOTHEO) to envy?
(6) But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
(7) Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
That depends. If it's Ortega's in Puerto Nuevo with friends, no big deal. If you're treating some Navy Divers to dinner after they returned from retrieving the body of Kennedy from his personal airplane off the northeast coast, Lobsterfest might have a different meaning to them.
All things are now lawful, but not all things are expedient (1stCor 6:12).
Let's look again at the verses you quoted, Leviticus 18:21–22:
21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
So, if homosexuality is now acceptable, are we to conclude that we may burn our children as offerings to Molech?
Sortof makes one wonder how much extortion/thievery might be going on out there hiding behind the confessional.
It's not any more/less a sin. There's no lobby trying to "normalize" premarital sex or adulterous sex, but there is an active lobby trying to "normalize" homosexual sex.
States frequently pass laws allowing divorce and even no-fault divorce and there isn’t a word from the churches, yet mention anything benefitting homosexuals and they are all right there.
During the transition to no-fault, most churches were quite vocal against it. Most churches spend more time on teaching about strengthening marriages than they do on homosexuality, but the homosexual issue gets a lot more print.
Of course! In fact, there are services in which gay and Molech-worshipping parishioners dance together to the Trammps' "Disco Inferno" ("Burn, baby, burn!") Jesus didn't say anything about that, did he? </dangerously close to blasphemous sarcasm>
Oh, come off it. There’s a short list of things the Mosaic Law punishes with capital punishment: murder, witchcraft, adultery, male-on-male anal sodomy, incest, bestiality (and I think one other). That and an Apostolic condemnation are an open and shut case for regarding an act as a sin.
I’ve read the whole Christian canon of Scripture, three times, and can check the LXX in Greek when I need to. Believe me, I don’t trust others’ claims as to the content of the Scriptures. I will, however, consult the ancient canons, the writings of the Fathers, and the tradition of the Church when it comes to interpretation.
The Orthodox regard the acts punished by capital punishment under the Old Covenant as ‘sins unto death’, with the canonical penance for them being excommunication with communion of the Holy Mysteries on the deathbed only (though canonical penances have for centuries only been applied to the recalcitrant).
Kansas? Paging Fred Phelps of 'God Hates Fags' fame.
Fred Phelps might as well be gay himself for as hateful as he is.
Well yes... but I guess I don’t see a difference between “homosexual” and “homosexuality” as something God hates. We sin because we’re sinners... He hates sin, and it’s something we are full of and dead in. So.. not sure where these people get off saying it’s not condemned in the Bible.
Hear hear. I love a guy who speaks the truth!
If it says "thou shalt not" then doing it IS a sin by definition.
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