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The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu
American Vision ^ | 10/23/2007 | Gary DeMar

Posted on 10/24/2007 8:18:14 AM PDT by topcat54

An article is circulating around the Internet that carries the title “Israel Warns World War III May be Biblical War of Gog and Magog.” It is written by Ezra HaLevi and was published in Israel National News.1 The article begins with the following prophetic claims, not unlike so many evangelical and fundamentalist end-time assurances about the end:

US President George W. Bush said a nuclear Iran would mean World War III. Israeli newscasts featured Gog & Magog maps of the likely alignment of nations in that potential conflict. Channel 2 and Channel 10 TV showed the world map, sketching the basic alignment of the two opposing axes in a coming world war, in a manner evoking associations of the Gog and Magog prophecy for many viewers. The prophecy of Gog and Magog refers to a great world war centered on the Holy Land and Jerusalem and first appears in the book of Yechezkel (Ezekiel). On one side were Israel, the United States, Britain, France and Germany. On the other were Iran, Russia, China, Syria and North Korea.

M. R. DeHaan, writing in 1951, identified “the sign of Gog and Magog” to be one of the “three most outstanding signs of the coming of Christ.”2 In 1972, Carl Johnson wrote Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These.3 His chapter on “When Russia Invades the Middle East” includes a lengthy quotation from a message Jack Van Impe gave at Canton Baptist Temple in Canton, Ohio, sometime in 1969. Like so many who claim to know what’s on the prophetic horizon, Van Impe made his case for an imminent war with Russia on what the newspapers of 1969 were reporting. This war was so close, he charged, “that the stage is being set for what could explode into World War III at any moment.”4 In 1971, Ronald Reagan, then governor of California, followed a similar prophetic script:

Ezekiel tells us that Gog, the nation that will lead all of the other powers of darkness against Israel, will come out of the north. Biblical scholars have been saying for generations that Gog must be Russia. What other powerful nation is to the north of Israel? None. But it didn’t seem to make sense before the Russian revolution, when Russia was a Christian country. Now it does, now that Russia has become Cummunistic and atheistic, now that Russia has set itself against God. Now it fits the description of Gog perfectly.5

This familiar interpretation of Ezekiel 38 and 39 has been written about, talked about, and repeated so often that it has become an unquestioned tenet of prophetic orthodoxy. The question is, does the Bible teach it?

Ezekiel 38 and 39 has been interpreted in various ways over the centuries. The most popular view is to see the prophecy as a depiction of a future battle that includes an alliance of nations led by modern-day Russia in an attack on Israel. Chuck Missler writes in his book Prophecy 20/20 that “the apparent use of nuclear weapons has made this passage [Ezekiel 38 and 39] appear remarkably timely, and some suspect that it may be on our horizon.”6 Prophecy writers for nearly 2000 years have made similar claims, of course without the reference to “nuclear weapons.” In the fourth and fifth centuries, Gog was thought to refer to the Goths and Moors. In the seventh century, it was the Huns. By the eighth century, the Islamic empire was making a name for itself, so it was a logical candidate. By the tenth century, the Hungarians briefly replaced Islam. But by the sixteenth century, the Turks and Saracens seemed to fit the Gog and Magog profile with the Papacy thrown in for added prophetic juice. In the seventeenth century, Spain and Rome were the end-time bad guys.7 In the nineteenth century, Napoleon was Gog leading the forces of Magog-France.8 For most of the twentieth century, Communist Russia was the logical pick with its military aspirations, its atheistic founding, and its designation of being “far north” of Israel. In a word, identifying Gog and Magog with a specific nation or group of nations in the past is legion.9

As the above brief study shows, when the headlines change, the interpretation of the Bible changes. The failed interpretive history of Ezekiel 38 and 39 is prime evidence that modern-day prophecy writers are not “profiling the future through the lens of Scripture” but through the ever-changing headlines of the evening news.10

A lot has to be read into the Bible in order to make Ezekiel 38 and 39 fit modern-day military realities that include jet planes, “missiles,” and “atomic and explosive” weaponry. Those who claim to interpret the Bible literally have a problem on their hands.

The battle in Ezekiel 38 and 39 is clearly an ancient one or at least one fought with ancient weapons. All the soldiers are riding horses (38:4, 15; 39:20). These horse soldiers are “wielding swords” (38:4), carrying “bows and arrows, war clubs and spears” (39:3, 9). The weapons are made of wood (39:10), and it is these abandoned weapons that serve as fuel for “seven years” (39:9). Tim LaHaye describes a highly technological future when the antichrist rises to power to rule the world. “A wave of technological innovation is sweeping the planet. . . . The future wave has already begun. We cannot stop it. . . . [T]he Antichrist will use some of this technology to control the world.”11 How does this assessment of the near prophetic future square with a supposed tribulation period when Israelites “take wood from the field” and “gather firewood from the forests”? (39:10). There is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to conclude that horses, war clubs, swords, bows and arrows, and spears mean anything other than horses, war clubs, swords, bows and arrows, and spears. And what is the Russian air force after? Gold, silver, cattle, and goods (38:12­–13). In what modern war can anyone remember armies going after cattle? How much cattle does Israel have? Certainly not enough to feed the Russians! The latest claim is that Israel will discover oil, and this is what will attract the nations to Israel. Where in the Bible do we find this claim?12

Chuck Missler attempts to get around the description of ancient war implements by claiming that the various Hebrew words “is simply 2,500-year-old language that could be describing a mechanized force.”13 The word translated “horse,” “actually means leaper” that “can also mean bird, or even chariot-rider.” He tells us that the Hebrew word translated “sword” “has become a generic term for any weapon or destroying instrument.” In a similar way, “arrow” means “piercer” and “is occasionally used for thunderbolt” and could be “translated today as a missile.” We are to believe that “‘Bow’ is what launches the [missile].”14 Is Missler trying to tell us that when Ezekiel wrote “bow” and “arrow” he really meant a launching pad for a missile? To follow his interpretive methodology requires us to believe that the meaning of the Bible has been inaccessible to the people of God for nearly 2500 years. Missler, like nearly all end-time prognosticators, breaks all the rules of exegesis.


1. Israeli National News

2. M. R. DeHaan, Signs of the Times and other Prophetic Messages (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1951), 74.

3. Carl G. Johnson, Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These (Chicago: Moody Press, 1972).

4. Jack Van Impe, The Coming War With Russia (Old Time Gospel Hour Press, n.d.). The quotation is taken from a message that Van Impe gave at Canton Baptist Temple, Canton, Ohio. The talk was recorded and available on a as an LP. Quoted in Johnson, Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These, 82–83.

5. From an address that Ronald Reagan gave at a dinner with California legislators in 1971. Quoted in Paul Boyer, When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern Culture (Cambridge, MA: The Belknap Press of Harvard University, 1992), 162.

6. Chuck Missler, Prophecy 20/20: Profiling the Future Through the Lens of Scripture (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, 2006), 155.

7. Francis X. Gumerlock, The Day and the Hour: Christianity’s Perennial Fascination with Predicting the End of the World (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, 2000), 68.

8. T.R., “Commentary on Ezekiel’s Prophecy of Gog and Magog,” The Gentleman’s Magazine (October 1816), 307.

9. Wikipedia

10. Gary DeMar, Islam and Russia in Prophecy: The Problem of Interpreting the Bible Through the Lens of History (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, 2005).

11. Tim LaHaye, “The Coming Wave,” in Ed Hindson and Lee Fredrickson, Future Wave: End Times, Prophecy, and the Technological Explosion (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 2001), 7–8.

12. This claim will be discussed in a later chapter.

13. Missler, Prophecy 20/20, 165.

14. Missler, Prophecy 20/20, 165.


Gary DeMar is the President for American Vision
Permission to reprint granted by American Vision P.O. Box 220, Powder Springs, GA 30127, 800-628-9460.


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: dispensationalism; endtimes; iran; israel; prophecy
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To: Lord_Calvinus; Uncle Chip

You need to find another verse and you need to explain how the restoration of all thing isn’t the restoration of all things.

= = =

I think it would be more fitting and more fun for the Replacementarians to find another Scipture clearly and specifically documenting their perspective on the “all things” issue. I don’t think there is one.


751 posted on 10/31/2007 7:27:42 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

a better use of our time would be to work on perfecting the world in front of us today.

= = =

Though I do spend a lot of time in such activities . . .

I basically disagree.

Scripture makes it clear that God has scheduled to purify the earth with fire this time.

Further, that all flesh driven “perfectionism” is little more than a stench in His nose.

He alone is worthy; He alone is able to cleanse the world, perfect the world; restore the world to Eden’s pristine state.

I don’t presume to know the roles he might have us play in the millenium.

I’m convinced however, that the bulk of the cleansing and probably all of it of any significant or dramatic substance . . . will have already been done supernaturally by God—KING OF THE ANGEL ARMIES as Scripture repeatedly calls him.


752 posted on 10/31/2007 7:34:48 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: azhenfud

TRUE. TRUE:

Labels? To be numerated among those of his is the only label one ought seek. Nothing satisfies the soul like that peace he imparts.


753 posted on 10/31/2007 7:42:41 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Uncle Chip; Lord_Calvinus
Some things I guess were just hard to forget for those Jewish apostles, especially when filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Actually, if you read the passage in Acts 15 very carefully you will see that what James is referring to is the then present calling of the gentiles, since it was the nature of that calling that was the present dispute before the council (whether gentiles needed to convert to Judaism after coming to faith in Christ). If was not the future, but the present that was James and Peter’s concern. As was their custom, the interpret the OT prophecy and apply it to Christ and the present, not the far distant future (the lone habitation of the dispensationalist).

Once again your futurist presuppositions cloud the plain reading of the text.

754 posted on 10/31/2007 8:12:43 PM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: Uncle Chip
f that is so, then why didn't Jesus say so when the disciples asked him if it was time to restore the kingdom to Israel???

At least Jesus' disciples got it, which is more than can be said for some folks around here.

755 posted on 10/31/2007 8:17:08 PM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: 1000 silverlings
That has been my experience as well on both of the points you raised!

Praise God!!!

756 posted on 10/31/2007 9:28:18 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Thank you oh so very much for all of your kind words and encouragements, dear sister in Christ!

I confess joy every time you have followed up one of my posts with one of your own, revealing powerful Scripture to underscore the point being made and further underscoring the point with excerpts from Reformation authorities.

No doubt I have inadvertently caused a lot of angst with other posters over the years by using the terms "leaning" and "musing" to weight my own posts.

Musings are merely my personal comments on a subject. They are offered with few, if any, Scriptures and are intended only as "food for thought" in the discussion. They are not important to me and shouldn't be taken that way by anyone else.

Leanings on the other hand refer to understanding I have received in following the Spirit's leading (Romans 8). They are usually very short on narrative and very long on Scripture. The salient part, the powerful part, is the Scripture. Whatever narrative I offer usually just connects the dots in the same path I was led to receive them. To me, they are important though they may or may not be important to someone else.

If you have any suggestions for better words to weight my own comments, I'd love to hear them.


757 posted on 10/31/2007 10:02:00 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: the_conscience
Thank you for sharing your insights!

1. Agreed, yet leaves unanswered questions of the imago Dei and the functions of the conscience, reason and will and those relations to Revelation.

Could you be more specific?

2. No doubt that experience and environment affect our understanding but it doesn’t answer the question of how God can reveal himself as ‘a’ to person 1 and ‘not a’ to person 2 and yet claim that both positions are correct.

If we apply Aristotle's Law of the Excluded Middle to God we either anthropomorphize Him or proliferate doctrines and traditions of men, e.g. do not kill v kill, do not judge v. judge righteous judgment, contend v. don't strive, prophesy v. commandments and so on.

The same happens if we apply the Law of Identity to God, e.g. Trinity v. Mormon doctrine, Catholic v. Orthodox on the filoque and so on.

And again, when we filter the revelations of God by science because methodological naturalism excludes miracles on principle. So some of the enlightened (ahem) modern doctrines pitch the resurrection, Mary as a virgin, Creation week, Noah flood, Jonah and the whale, etc. The red sea was parted by a natural phenomenon, etc.

Love God. Believe Him. Trust Him.

It really is that simple.

The gemstone analogy has merit but underlying the analogy is the unity of the light so that the light refracted is always the same light. Carrying the analogy further, light shone on coal is not refracted. Should we not discern between gem and coal? If someone claims their coal refracts beautiful light should we not dispute that claim? Since this side of glory none of us is a fully formed gem should we not be wary of the remaining coal in each of us or should we merely assume it’s a precious particularity?

3. Christ as unity. Christ undefined is not a unity. The Nicolaitans claimed Christ but Christ did not claim them. We must assume there was a unity amongst the seven churches about Christ that Nicolaitans did not hold. The Nicolaitans may have claimed to be lead by the Spirit through their experiences yet we know that not to be true. It seems clear there must be another grounds on which we judge beyond spirit and experience.

We should always be concerned about any coal within us lest we obstruct the Light.

To avoid false doctrine, we must discern the spirits (I John 4), test what we hear against Scripture (Acts 17) and discern the spiritual fruits (Matt 7 and Gal 5). These responsibilities should not be delegated.

But I personally draw the line at pointing to an individual and saying "you are a lump of coal."

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: - Luke 6:37

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. - Matt 7:2

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. - Romans 2:1

Maranatha, Jesus!

758 posted on 10/31/2007 11:06:25 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: topcat54; Quix; Lord_Calvinus
Actually, if you read the passage in Acts 15 very carefully you will see that what James is referring to is the then present calling of the gentiles, since it was the nature of that calling that was the present dispute before the council (whether gentiles needed to convert to Judaism after coming to faith in Christ). If was not the future, but the present that was James and Peter’s concern.

Not exactly. They were also wondering about what happened to the promise of the restoration of the kingdom to Israel since there were so many Gentiles coming into the church. The declaration of the council is quite clear: First the Gentiles would be brought into the Church [the times of the Gentiles], then after this Jesus would return to rebuild Jerusalem and restore the kingdom from there. Here read it again:

"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things." [Acts 15]

Once again your preterist presuppositions cloud the plain reading of the text. Does your Bible have the words "After this" in it? Are the words "I will return ..." yet still in the future? You preterists need to get yourself some Bibles with all the verb tenses in them -- Past, Present, and F-U-T-U-R-E.

759 posted on 11/01/2007 3:30:52 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: topcat54; Lord_Calvinus; Quix
At least Jesus' disciples got it, which is more than can be said for some folks around here.

Well let's see what Jesus' disciples did get. Let's review what we have so far:

After "forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God ... and when they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."[Acts 1]

Then after this in Acts 3 after being filled with the Holy Spirit, Peter declares to the Jews:

"But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."[Acts 3]

And then later at the first council of the church in Jerusalem comes this declaration:

"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things." [Acts 15]

So we have the restoration of the kingdom to Israel yet future in Acts 1, the restitution of all things [that the Jewish prophets said would be restored] in Acts 3, and the restoration of Jerusalem [the capital of the Kingdom of Israel] in Acts 15.

Does that sound to you like God has forgotten his promises to restore the kingdom to Israel???

760 posted on 11/01/2007 4:22:21 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Alamo-Girl

I think

musings and leanings

are fitting to my own experience.

Given my personality . . . they seem like rather muted words but . . . that’s another issue.

Perhaps I’d call musings my ponderings.

And leanings, my convictions from prayerful podnering.

But you’re the gracious saint and I’m the . . . something in a china shop goading the other uhhhhhh donkeys to uhhhhh learn how to throw pots from the Master or get the well out of the china shop.

I think, for me, convictions . . . are my convictions. I may FEEL like others ought to share the convictions but they don’t rise to the level of clear and plain Scriptural doctrine, per se. I’m rather comfortable having my convictions rejected as not orthodox . . . at least most of the time. LOL. . . . though I may pontificate as though they are priceless gems on occasion. They do usually come with some experience with Scripture and life of Holy Spirit having confirmed them a several times.

Ponderings are more postulations, hypotheses . . . things on the theological shelf waiting to see what of them God confirms in this time/space dimension and/or eternity.

THX
LUB


761 posted on 11/01/2007 5:28:03 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Alamo-Girl

BEAUTIFULLY and masterfully put, as usual.

Thx.


762 posted on 11/01/2007 5:32:29 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Uncle Chip; Lord_Calvinus
then after this Jesus would return to rebuild Jerusalem

Actually, it does not say that at all. James was quoting directly from the Old Testament. The OT uses the phrase "after this". James is interpreting the OT prophecy (correctly) by applying it to Jesus Christ (the true Tabernacle, cf. John 1:14), and saying that since the "tabernacle has been rebuilt" (Christ raised from the dead) the result would be that many gentiles are called into the kingdom. And that is precisely what was happening in the first century and from then on.

So the phrase "after this" is from the perspective of the OT prophet. The fulfillment is in Jesus Christ and the calling of the gentiles into His kingdom

There is no futurism in Acts 15. There is no rebuilding of earthly Jerusalem anywhere in the NT. In fact we are told that those who long for and look for earthly Jerusalem are the children of Hagar, not the children of promise "The Jerusalem above is free." (Gal. 4).

763 posted on 11/01/2007 6:19:47 AM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: Uncle Chip

"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things." [Acts 15]

 

Once again your preterist presuppositions cloud the plain reading of the text. Does your Bible have the words "After this" in it? Are the words "I will return ..." yet still in the future? You preterists need to get yourself some Bibles with all the verb tenses in them -- Past, Present, and F-U-T-U-R-E.

 

INDEED, INDEED! Well put, Uncle Chip, on all points.

 

AMEN.

 


764 posted on 11/01/2007 6:25:52 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg

I apologize if I overreacted to your comments. I appreciate the spirit in which they were given.


765 posted on 11/01/2007 6:41:18 AM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: topcat54; Uncle Chip; All
There is no rebuilding of earthly Jerusalem anywhere in the NT.

PREPOSTEROUSLY AND OUTRAGEOUSLY WRONG.

I don't have time to track down all the NT refs . . . I will content myself with another note from Walvoord reffing the OT and mentioning many other (including NT) refs. p333 EVERY PROPHECY IN THE BIBLE

Zechariah 14:9-21. The millenial kingdom will be distinguished by the fact that the Lord, Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel and King of kings will rule over the entire earth (v. 9). Included in the topographical changes will be the elevation [literal] of Jerusalem as described in verse 10. From that day forward Jerusalem will be secure and never be destroyed again.

An indication of the rule of Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords is that He will judge the nations that fought against Jerusalem (vv. 12-13). A plague will seize man and beast alike, but in the results a great quantity of gold, silver, and clothing will accrue to Israel's benefit (v14).

Those who survive the purging judgments at the beginning of the millenial kingdom will be required to worship Christ annually (v. 16). If they do not worship Him as commanded, God will hold their rain (vv. 17-19). It will be a time when the holiness of God is especially revealed, and false elements like the Canaanites will be shut out (vv. 20-21). The partial revelation of the nature of the millenial kingdom as described here was amplified in many other Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments.

ibid p 106

Isaiah 32:1-20. Israel will have 'a King' who 'will reign in righteousness and rulers will rule with justice' (v. 1). Isaiah predicted that Israel at that time would listen to His exhortation (vv. 2-8). Israel was promised severe judgment from God but ultimate restoration and deliverance (vv. 9-20). The passage concluded, 'how blessed you will be, sowing your seed by every stream, and letting your cattle and donkeys range free' (v. 20). This will be fulfilled in the Millenium (Jer. 23:5-8; Rev. 19:11-15).

To be continued.

766 posted on 11/01/2007 6:43:22 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: topcat54; Quix
There is no futurism in Acts 15.

Except for these words:

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up" [Acts 15]

There is no rebuilding of earthly Jerusalem anywhere in the NT

Except for these words:

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up"[Acts 15]

In fact we are told that those who long for and look for earthly Jerusalem are the children of Hagar, not the children of promise "The Jerusalem above is free." (Gal. 4).

It doesn't say that at all, Here it is:

For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." [Galatians 4]

The Jerusalem in that day was in bondage, not the Jerusalem that they looked for and longed for and that Jesus promised that He would return to, and restore, and rebuild, and place his throne.

Once again your explanations bear no resemblance to the text.

767 posted on 11/01/2007 6:46:44 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: topcat54; Uncle Chip; Dr. Eckleburg

You are exactly right. James is explaining how the OT prophecy mentioned in Acts 15 was already being fulfilled.

And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

And, since it is the Gentiles and the rest of mankind that were AT THAT MOMENT already seeking the Lord as testified by Peter we also know that the fulfillment of the rebuilding of the tabernacle had ALREADY been accomplished. The prophecy makes it clear that the gentiles seeking God would happen after the tabernacle was rebuilt.

Now, what event had recently happened which would have been the fulfillment of the rebuilding of the tabernacle? Let’s see if the dispies can figure it out.

BTW, Chip, you are still using circular logic in Acts 3 concering the times of restoration of all things. And, you still haven’t explained how the restoration of all things really doesn’t mean the restoration of all things. As Quix likes to claim: are you having trouble with the literal meaning of things?


768 posted on 11/01/2007 6:53:32 AM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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To: Uncle Chip; topcat54

***There is no futurism in Acts 15. ~ topcat54

Except for these words:

“After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up” [Acts 15]***

Future to the OT prophet.
Past to James & Peter....

And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

James is clearly declaring that they were with their own eyes seeing the fulfillment of the prophecy in the coming of the Gentiles to the Lord. And that ingrafting of gentiles was prophecied AFTER the rebuilding of the tabernacle.

So, off you now go to figure out what significant event was recently accomplished which was the fulfillment of that rebuild.....


769 posted on 11/01/2007 6:57:58 AM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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To: Lord_Calvinus; Uncle Chip
Future to the OT prophet. Past to James & Peter....

Correct. The OT prophets were true futurists. Peter and James were "contemporarists" on the fulfillment. They witnessed the fulfillment in the person and work of Christ, and the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, in particular on the gentiles who were coming to faith and being ingrafted to spiritual Israel.

"And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)

770 posted on 11/01/2007 7:17:18 AM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: topcat54; Lord_Calvinus
"And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)

Now was that Jesus who tabernacled among them or David who tabernacled among them??? Hmmm.

And are you saying that the resurrected body of Jesus was "fallen down" at that time??? Hmmmm

And just what tabernacle would Jesus be tabernacling in when He returns to restore the tabernacle of David???? Hmmmm

BTW the word for "tabernacle" [skene]also means "habitation", and the place where David did his habitating [tabernacling] was/is Jerusalem, which I'm sure you are aware, has always been known as "The City of David". That is what the "tabernacle of David" means in that verse.

771 posted on 11/01/2007 7:53:57 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Lord_Calvinus; topcat54
James is clearly declaring that they were with their own eyes seeing the fulfillment of the prophecy in the coming of the Gentiles to the Lord. And that ingrafting of gentiles was prophecied AFTER the rebuilding of the tabernacle.

But the text of Acts 15 says that the ingrafting of the Gentiles is occurring BEFORE He returns to restore and rebuild the tabernacle of David. What is happening in the text before the words "After this"???

772 posted on 11/01/2007 8:25:40 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip; Lord_Calvinus
Now was that Jesus who tabernacled among them or David who tabernacled among them??? Hmmm.

Jesus, for of Jesus and David we read:

23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' 29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." ' 36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Acts 2)
And are you saying that the resurrected body of Jesus was "fallen down" at that time??? Hmmmm

Christ tabernacled among His people (John 1:14) and was crucified, His body placed in the ground, and then raised up, thus fulfilling the prophecy, according to James in Acts 15. The fact that many gentiles were coming to faith in Christ is proof of its fulfillment, again according to James.

And just what tabernacle would Jesus be tabernacling in when He returns to restore the tabernacle of David???? Hmmmm

He did restore the "tabernacle of David", when He was raised from the dead and began calling the gentiles to Himself per James.

which I'm sure you are aware, has always been known as "The City of David". That is what the "tabernacle of David" means in that verse.

Regardless of what it might have meant in the OT, the apostles and elders gave us the infallible, authoritative interpretation of the Amos 9 prophecy in Acts 15 when they applied it to Jesus, His resurrection and the calling of the gentiles.

If you take this to mean some far future fulfilled in the physical city of Jerusalem, the clearly James misinterpreted the prophet and was quite incorrect in trying to apply it to a contemporary situation with the then calling of the gentiles.

11 "On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old; 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, And all the Gentiles who are called by My name," Says the Lord who does this thing. (Amos 9)

We know from James in Acts 15 that the timing of "on that day" corresponds to the resurrection of Christ and the calling of the gentiles to faith in the first century and beyond.

773 posted on 11/01/2007 8:31:51 AM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: topcat54
Christ tabernacled among His people (John 1:14) and was crucified, His body placed in the ground, and then raised up, thus fulfilling the prophecy, according to James in Acts 15.

No Jesus tabernacled among them not David. And if they were referring to his heritage at all, they would call him "Son of David" not "David".

The fact that many gentiles were coming to faith in Christ is proof of its fulfillment, again according to James.

You have it backwards. The restoration of the tabernacle of David is to occur after the visitation to the Gentiles to take out of them a people for his name. Read the text -- it's right there plain as day.

774 posted on 11/01/2007 8:50:30 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip; Lord_Calvinus
No Jesus tabernacled among them not David. And if they were referring to his heritage at all, they would call him "Son of David" not "David".

I noticed you conveniently missed commenting on the impact of Peter words concerning Christ as the greater David in Acts 2.

If you do not take all the Bible into account you will consistently come up with the wrong answers.

Jesus asked them, 42 saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David." 43 He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying: 44 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool" '? 45 "If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his Son?" (Matt. 22)

775 posted on 11/01/2007 8:58:47 AM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: Uncle Chip; Lord_Calvinus
You have it backwards. The restoration of the tabernacle of David is to occur after the visitation to the Gentiles to take out of them a people for his name. Read the text -- it's right there plain as day.

Neither Amos 9 (which I quoted) nor Acts 15 (also quoted) reads that way. You are placing the cart before the futurist horse.

776 posted on 11/01/2007 9:01:48 AM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: Uncle Chip; topcat54

***But the text of Acts 15 says that the ingrafting of the Gentiles is occurring BEFORE He returns to restore and rebuild the tabernacle of David. What is happening in the text before the words “After this”???***

You are, AGAIN, reading your Eschatology into the passage instead of getting it out of the passage.

Look at what James says:

And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

What does James say: THE PROPHETS AGREE with Peter.
What does Peter say: Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

Gentiles hear and believe ~ Peter
The prophets agree ~ James
So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the LORD who does all these things. ~ the prophet.

James testifies that the fulfillment of the gentiles believing is occuring in the gospel preaching of Peter. You are assuming that the prophecy in Acts 15 is teaching that the “I will return” promise of the Lord is the SECOND coming of Christ. You are also assuming that the FIRST coming of Christ in the flesh is also the absolute first coming of Christ to his people.

Your Dispensational assumptions have you blind. You are just as blind as the Pharisees were when they saw the Incarnate LORD of the OT standing before them as the sum and substance of Biblical Prophecy. The Lord RETURNED to his people 2000 years ago. The LORD rebuilt the tabernacle in the person and resurrected body of Christ. The nations are coming.

Peter testified to it.
James asserted that it was just as the prophets said.
Why don’t you believe it?

And, you are still also at a quandry in Acts 3 concerning the times of the restoration of ALL THINGS.


777 posted on 11/01/2007 9:24:17 AM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt
Thank you oh so very much for your encouragements!
778 posted on 11/01/2007 9:25:56 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Quix
Thank you oh so very much for your encouragements, dear Quix!
779 posted on 11/01/2007 9:26:22 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Quix
LOLOL!
780 posted on 11/01/2007 9:27:46 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Uncle Chip

***And just what tabernacle would Jesus be tabernacling in when He returns to restore the tabernacle of David???? Hmmmm***

There will be NO return to restore the tabernacle of David. The LORD returned to his people 2000 years ago. That tabernacle was rebuilt ALREADY. The nations are coming. Why do you look far off for what has already happened?

Peters said it.
James agreed that the prophets promised it.
Why do you look for brick and mortar when that which is better has come?


781 posted on 11/01/2007 9:28:15 AM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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To: azhenfud
Beautiful post, dear azhenfud! Thank you for sharing your testimony and insights!
782 posted on 11/01/2007 9:29:18 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: topcat54

***The fact that many gentiles were coming to faith in Christ is proof of its fulfillment...***

The Dispensationalists need to wrap their minds around that statement. The FACT that the nations are coming is PROOF of the prophetic fulfillment.


783 posted on 11/01/2007 9:30:25 AM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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To: topcat54
Neither Amos 9 (which I quoted) nor Acts 15 (also quoted) reads that way. You are placing the cart before the futurist horse.

Here I'll make it easy for you. What happens before the words: "After this I will return ...". Just read the words in bold below:

"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets, as it is written; After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things." [Acts 15]

Now what happens after "After this I will return ...". Just read the above words underlined.

Please note that the "Gentiles upon whom my name is called" is the result of the "visit to the Gentiles [starting at the House of Cornelius] in order to take out of them a people for his name". The visitation comes first and note that the Gentiles after His return are already called by His name --the end result of the visitation.

784 posted on 11/01/2007 9:34:19 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Quix; Dr. Eckleburg
Thank you oh so very much for your testimony, insights and encouragements, dear brother in Christ!

I do like your terms "ponderings" and "convictions."

As for me, when I attach a lot of narrative to the Scriptures to prosecute a conviction (in my lingo, a leaning) then I have weighted the reply towards the pondering (in my lingo, musing) side of the scale and it loses strength.

785 posted on 11/01/2007 9:40:42 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: topcat54
No apology needed, dear brother in Christ! You never offended me. May God ever bless you.
786 posted on 11/01/2007 9:42:28 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

As for me, when I attach a lot of narrative to the Scriptures to prosecute a conviction (in my lingo, a leaning) then I have weighted the reply towards the pondering (in my lingo, musing) side of the scale and it loses strength.

= = =

Can’t really argue with that.

Not sure how much it will change my habits . . . I’ll blame my age . . .

But I’ll at least ponder your wisdom on that score some more.

Thanks.


787 posted on 11/01/2007 9:44:42 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Quix
Thank you so much for your insights, dear brother in Christ!

I look at it this way, Jesus Christ – the living Word of God – is the power of God. The words of God are spirit and life, Spiritual food – and will accomplish God’s will wherever He sends them.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. - John 1:1-3

His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. – Revelation 19:12-13

I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. – Revelation 1:18

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. – I Cor 1:24

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. - Matthew 22:29

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. – Matthew 4:4

For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. – Isaiah 55:8-11

Therefore, Spiritually speaking, there is nothing to lose and everything to gain by repeating God’s words here on the forum.

788 posted on 11/01/2007 10:02:05 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Uncle Chip; topcat54

***Now what happens after “After this I will return ...”. Just read the above words underlined.***

You are stuck in a Dispensational mindset. James has already asserted that the “I will return” had ALREADY happened. Quit reading everything as if it still future to you or even James.

Gentiles hear and believe ~ Peter
The prophets agree ~ James

The LORD returned to his people 2000 years ago. Does the name Imanuel mean anything to you???
The tabernacle was rebuilt.
The gentiles are coming is the proof of the prophetic fulfillment to the council. The same observance by Peter is the same coming of the gentiles in the prophecy. THIS IS WHY JAMES CITES IT.


789 posted on 11/01/2007 10:05:14 AM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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To: Alamo-Girl

Therefore, Spiritually speaking, there is nothing to lose and everything to gain by repeating God’s words here on the forum.

= = =

I certainly VERY STRONGLY AGREE, Dear Sister in Christ.


790 posted on 11/01/2007 10:24:22 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Alamo-Girl
A lot has to be read into the Bible in order to make Ezekiel 38 and 39 fit modern-day military realities that include jet planes, “missiles,” and “atomic and explosive” weaponry. Those who claim to interpret the Bible literally have a problem on their hands.

Nuclear missiles and jet planes in Zechariah

Zechariah 5

1 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying scroll.

2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying scroll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits. 3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.

4 I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.

5 Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth.

6 And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth. 7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a fire that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.

8 And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof. 9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two fires, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.

10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah? 11 And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

***

Woman: Alef Shin Hei
Strongs H802

1) woman, wife, female
a) woman (opposite of man)
b) wife (woman married to a man)
c) female (of animals)
d) each, every (pronoun)

Fire: Alef Shin Hei
Strongs H800

1) fire

And what kind of fire needs a lead cover? Now this chapter makes sense.

Analysis courtesy of Michael Rood.

Zechariah’s Thermonuclear War
http://www.michaelrood.com/news_sp27.htm

If you want to be a wise man you have to hang out with them, that’s why I hang out with Jews.

M

791 posted on 11/01/2007 10:42:56 AM PDT by Jeremiah Jr (Saturn is in Leo)
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To: Quix
Thank you so very much for your encouragements, dear brother in Christ!
792 posted on 11/01/2007 10:44:34 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Jeremiah Jr
Thank you so very much for sharing your insights and that link!
793 posted on 11/01/2007 10:46:42 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Jeremiah Jr; Alamo-Girl; Uncle Chip; Dr. Eckleburg; tabsternager; Lord_Calvinus
A lot has to be read into the Bible in order to make Ezekiel 38 and 39 fit modern-day military realities that include jet planes, “missiles,” and “atomic and explosive” weaponry. Those who claim to interpret the Bible literally have a problem on their hands.

Truer words have never been spoken based on what we learn from this "insightful" analysis of the OT prophecies:

Nuclear missiles and jet planes in Zechariah

Analysis courtesy of Michael Rood.

An abomination of an analysis. Don’t let messianic cultists interpret you Bible for you.

794 posted on 11/01/2007 10:58:43 AM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: topcat54
This has been covered already, but it bears repeating...

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

The fullness of the Gentiles has not yet been fulfilled...

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

This is after Jesus shows up again...Has it been fulfilled??? Of course not...

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This is a third covenant...

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

When God is done with the Gentiles, he will turn again to Israel...

795 posted on 11/01/2007 10:59:44 AM PDT by Iscool (What if Jesus meant everything that He said...)
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To: Uncle Chip; Lord_Calvinus; Dr. Eckleburg; tabsternager
Now what happens after "After this I will return ...". Just read the above words underlined.

The "after this" corresponds to Amos' "in that day". The meaning is that "after this" (after the words of the prophecy were given, aka "in that day"), the tabernacle will be rebuilt (Christ is resurrected) so "that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord" (the gentiles then being called).

"In that day" referring to the day when Christ took on human flesh and walked among us, to bring the nations to Himself. There is not one hint of futurism in the passage.

"14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree …"

You’re fail to see that James understood everything that was happening in that day was the exact fulfillment of the Amos prophecy, otherwise how could he say it "agreed" if some of it was not even happening?

Reading Amos plainly, if the "tabernacle" was not rebuilt then the gentiles were not being called. But that was clearly not the case.

796 posted on 11/01/2007 11:10:05 AM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: Iscool
The fullness of the Gentiles has not yet been fulfilled...

Yes, and?

This is after Jesus shows up again...Has it been fulfilled??? Of course not...

Where does it say "after Jesus shows up again"? The next time "Jesus shows up" will be judgment day and the new heavens and new earth ushered in.

Of course Jesus has already appeared once to put away sin and call a people to Himself from among both the Jews and gentiles.

This is a third covenant...

Eisegesis.

When God is done with the Gentiles, he will turn again to Israel...

It doesn’t say that at all. You have to read it into the passage, aka eisegesis.

797 posted on 11/01/2007 11:14:47 AM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: topcat54
Where does it say "after Jesus shows up again"?

Right here...

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

This is clearly AFTER the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled...

that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Pretty simple stuff here...Israel is partially blinded while God is dealing with the Gentiles...

When God is done dealing with the Gentiles, the Deliverer will show up and the blindness will be lifted from Israel

And then what???

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

That's the restoration of Israel...

I can't imagine how you and others can't see it, unless you have been blinded as well...

798 posted on 11/01/2007 11:50:02 AM PDT by Iscool (What if Jesus meant everything that He said...)
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To: topcat54
Amo 9:14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.

Amo 9:15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

There is no way anyone could construe this to mean this event took place in the past...

799 posted on 11/01/2007 11:57:18 AM PDT by Iscool (What if Jesus meant everything that He said...)
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To: Lord_Calvinus; Uncle Chip
The gentiles are coming is the proof of the prophetic fulfillment to the council.

But futurists dispies don’t get it. They think that James citing Amos needs to be read through the lens that places all the emphasis on events in our future.

In fact, whenever they read "Israel" or "David" or "tabernacle" anything remotely Jewish sounding in the NT their thoughts automatically leap forward thousands of years. They can no longer focus on the text.

That’s because in dispensationalism earthly Israel and not Christ is the object and fulfillment of many if not most of the OT prophecies. They truly believe that the promises were made to national Israel, rather than to Christ as the Seed of Abraham per Paul’s words in Galatians 3.

It’s impossible for them to imagine that Peter’s words in 1 Peter 2:9,10 were intended to communicate that the Church made up of both Jews and gentiles is the inheritor of the place formerly help by national Israel.

Their continued emphasis on earthly Jerusalem and earthly Israel is really an indication that they do not understand the real nature of the promise God made to His people (Gal. 4:24,25).

800 posted on 11/01/2007 11:57:35 AM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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