Posted on 10/25/2007 9:24:05 AM PDT by NYer
The Other Christ: Padre Pio and 19th Century Italy, by the historian Sergio Luzzatto, draws on a document found in the Vatican's archive.
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The document reveals the testimony of a pharmacist who said that the young Padre Pio bought four grams of carbolic acid in 1919.
"I was an admirer of Padre Pio and I met him for the first time on 31 July 1919," wrote Maria De Vito.
She claimed to have spent a month with the priest in the southern town of San Giovanni Rotondo, seeing him often.
"Padre Pio called me to him in complete secrecy and telling me not to tell his fellow brothers, he gave me personally an empty bottle, and asked if I would act as a chauffeur to transport it back from Foggia to San Giovanni Rotondo with four grams of pure carbolic acid.
"He explained that the acid was for disinfecting syringes for injections. He also asked for other things, such as Valda pastilles."
The testimony was originally presented to the Vatican by the Archbishop of Manfredonia, Pasquale Gagliardi, as proof that Padre Pio caused his own stigmata with acid.
It was examined by the Holy See during the beatification process of Padre Pio and apparently dismissed.
Padre Pio, whose real name was Francesco Forgione, died in 1968. He was made a saint in 2002. A recent survey in Italy showed that more people prayed to him than to Jesus or the Virgin Mary. He exhibited stigmata throughout his life, starting in 1911.
The new allegations were greeted with an instant dismissal from his supporters. The Catholic Anti-Defamation League said Mr Luzzatto was a liar and was "spreading anti-Catholic libels".
Pietro Siffi, the president of the League, said: "We would like to remind Mr Luzzatto that according to Catholic doctrine, canonisation carries with it papal infallibility.
"We would like to suggest to Mr Luzzatto that he dedicates his energies to studying religion properly."
To be perfectly honest, the gospel message is rather simple. All I CAN do is read and repeat what the text says.
If the text says, "You did not chose me but I have choosen you.", then personally I think that is rather clear. I can understand Christians saying, "Hmmmm...that is rather interesting and I'll have to study it." or "I believe it is stating ----this---- for ----these---- reasons." There shouldn't be a "Yes, but...".
That being put aside, I will say that I'm not here to win battles, pick fights, prove a point or anything else but to learn and grow. I will add there are some things I find simply astounding that Christians would believe. Never in all my born-again days would I have thought Christians believed some of these things, and I have socialized with all sorts of Christians. In these cases I can't keep my big mouth shut-or my big keyboard.
Deuteronomy 6:5-9;14-16 which Dr. Eckleburg quoted stresses the diligence required to keep our priorities straight - think the Great Commandment with every conscious moment, teach it, speak it, write it on our hands and between our eyes, put it on the posts of our house and our gates.
We mortals are small-minded and easily distracted - the media yells "watch the birdie" and we do. We "rubber-neck" over all kinds of things. We stub our toe and that becomes the most important thing in the world.
Truly, only one command is first, only one command is great:
Some might be helped by wrapping a string around their finger or carrying a pebble in their shoe to cause them discomfort. Some might train their minds to think of Jesus with every breath they take.
Some might leave notes to themselves on their todo lists, shopping lists and other places around the house. I confess to doing this, I write NWK on every puzzle I work (because they are 'watch the birdie' to me) --- repeating the priority from the Lord's Prayer: Thy Name be hallowed, thy will be done, thy kingdom come.
To GOD be the glory, not man!
Mad Dawg, Psalms 115 begins with the perfect thought to finish this sidebar, quoting verse 1:
The "bringing up of the dead question" is central to the error of praying to anyone other than the Triune God.
The RCC believes in purgatory and that the prayers of the living can effect the eventual destination of the dead.
Bible-believing Christians know that at the moment of our death, we will either reside blameless in heaven with God or condemned by our sins in hell.
Therefore, for those already dead, our praying to other dead people is pointless.
And for the living, praying to dead people takes our eyes off the only mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus, who is "is before all things," and by whom "all things consist."
"Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." -- Matthew 4:10
I'm just pointing out that a lot of the problem is that we are doing two very different things with different goals.
The "goal" should always be to understand God's word and will. If we don't find a belief in the Scriptures, if we find a particular belief expressly denounced in the Scriptures, what is the prudent man to do? Keep searching for reasons to believe what Scripture denies? Where's the logic in that?
I see no point in "engaging" with you all
It's human nature to withdraw when our defense is weak. There is an alternative.
"As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him." -- Psalm 18:30
This is the meaning of life, the purpose for our existence:
AMEN! How can anyone go wrong by believing that fact and living that fact?
And frankly, it's a lot easier to say we believe Matthew 22 than to really truly live it. Sometimes it takes a lot of years to realize just how difficult that proposition is, how much we are pulled in other directions, how little we actually acknowledge His hand in our lives.
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." -- Ephesians 1:17-23"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
"far above...every name that is named..."
It could be our "self," a child, a spouse, a friend - a possession, an illness, a situation, a contest, an idealogy, a theology, a thing - a religious figure dead or alive - and so on.
But truly, any thing or any one that we treasure above God - even in a moment - is an "idol" to us.
To GOD be the glory, not man.
Every day it seems I discover something that was too important to me. And oh, how grateful I am to God for pointing them out - one by one, as I can bear to face it.
Amazing grace.
Praise God!!!
That's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. You START by arguing the "Why not go straight to Jesus?", When I suggest it's for the same reason that you ask others to pray for you, THEN you immediately go to the "dead" question.
It seems to me the "direct access" question is independent of the "dead" question. It would pertain to intercession generally. Because in heaven or on earth, asking somebody else to pray for is, at least superficially, INdirect. It is just as indirect (at least in the petitioner's intention) when the request is made of a person on earth as it is when the request is made of a person in heaven. So IF it is okay, with respect to the "direct access" issue for St. Paul to ask someone to pray for him, then "direct access" is not the issue.
THEN we can move to the "not praying for the dead" v. Communion of the saints issue.
In the paragraph cited above you mention BOTH issues, but when the question first arose whoever first asked it ONLY mentioned the "direct access" side of it, and only weighed in with the "dead" side of it after the "direct access" side of it was addressed - AND never responded to the direct access reply side of it as such.
Here's an analogy. You say "It is okay to shoot someone who is committing felony battery on someone else."
I say,"No, we should let the police handle it.
Then You say,"But I saw you kit someone with a brick when you came upon a felony battery in process."
And I say, "But I didn't use a gun, but you said 'shoot.'"
Wouldn't you then say, "What do the police have to do with it then?"
I feel like I said it's okay to pray to the saints. Then you said, why not go directly to Jesus, And I said, but you ask for intercessions.And you say, but they're here on earth. So I'm left wondering where you stand on the intercession thing or why you brought it up, what does going directly to Jesus have to do with it, when the real sticking point seems to be Which humans we asked, not THAT we asked.
Now, the following is not a "what the Bible or the Church says" thing. I say, "If your intention is such and such, then I want to do this and that."
You say, "Our intention is NOT such and such, THEREFORE go ahead and do this and that."
I just don't understand this.
It is a discussion of understanding.
A discussion OF understanding, or a discussion SEEKING (as I said) understanding? If it's just "a frank exchange of views", it's not a discussion, at least as I use the word.
Look, if you're going to break into a thread about Padre Pio and say, "What your church teaches is wrong," Isn't it reasonable for me to want to know if you really know what my Church in fact teaches and what you think is wrong with it? If someone says, "Catholics think thus and so," while we're all saying, "No, we don't think that," what is going to come of that? If you're going to say that your understanding is based on Scripture, and I think mine is too, either directly or indirectly, then ... well let me ask what you think the next step, if any, is.
It could evenbe our idea of God, or our way of relating to Him.
To God be the glory!
“Show me the verses”
Brother, what in the world would you have done had you lived in the first 400 years of Christian belief, when the sacred scriptures were not translated into your language and bound together in one book?
Do keep praying to Jesus, nobody here would discourage you from that.
Pillut,
I’m a convert to the Catholic faith from the bible belt. One thing I believe helps understanding is to realize that in Catholic teaching the saints are alive and with God. Understanding the full teaching of the Communion of Saints along with intercessory prayer is good way to frame the issue for those wishing to know.
thanks for your post.
I came here from a link on a different thread. And, just now, I realized I replied to post you made five years ago - and it was post 5 on a thread of close to thousand posts.
The internet is forever I guess. My apologies for the time warp.
Praying to dead people is necromancy. Forbidden by God.Saints are alive in Heaven with God.
The doctrine expressed in the second clause of the ninth article in the received text of the Apostles' Creed: "I believe . . . the Holy Catholic Church, the Communion of Saints". This... is found in:
the Gallican Liturgy of the seventh century (P.L., LXXII, 349, 597); in some letters of the Pseudo-Augustine (P.L., XXXIX, 2189, 2191, 2194), now credited to St. Caesarius of Arles (c. 543); in the "De Spiritu Sancto" (P.L., LXII, 11), ascribed to Faustus of Riez (c. 460); in the "Explanatio Symboli" (P.L., LII, 871) of Nicetas of Remesiana (c. 400); and in two documents of uncertain date, the "Fides Hieronymi", and an Armenian confession.
For more, see: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm
Eternal Rest be granted to your mother and I sympathize for your loss.
It interests me that so many Christians are confused that humans somehow become angels. Angels are sparate beings and have their own heirarchy. Human are above angels in God’s sight because Jesus loved us so much He redeemed us - the fallen angels weren’t redeemed. I get annoyed in It’s A Wonderful Life when they get that wrong with every time the bell rings. Humans remain human and will be raised up on the last day.
PS - we can pray to angels for the intercession before God too - they are certainly alive!!!
sparate = separate (mea culpa)
This book is amazing. Read it!
That is known as "necro-posting", lol :).
As for the thread, anyone who has taken a college chemistry course would know that there are a lot quicker and much less painful ways to create a hole in the palm than using carbolic acid. The premise in the article is moronic, but I saw the usual buffoons eating it up. It's not like in the movies.
I have read it...wonderful!
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