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Italy's Padre Pio 'faked his stigmata with acid'
Telegraph ^ | October 24, 2007 | Malcolm Moore

Posted on 10/25/2007 9:24:05 AM PDT by NYer

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To: ears_to_hear
My sins render me unworthy of Your Mercy, but be mindful of Sister Faustina’s spirit of sacrifice and self-denial, and reward her virtue by granting the petition which, with childlike trust, I present to You through her intercession.

That's addressed to God, obviously.

101 posted on 10/25/2007 3:08:46 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Here’s another:

“As documented in a solidly researched book, Padre Pio: The True Story (by an initially skeptical Protestant minister), there were accounts that defy the belief of even the most ardent believer: a sighting of him at the Vatican even though he never left the San Giovanni monastery; the transfiguration of his face into that of Jesus’ during consecration; a worker named Giovanni Savino who lost an eye that later materialized under the bandages after Pio visited him in bilocation.”

As documented in a solidly researched book, Padre Pio: The True Story (by an initially skeptical Protestant minister), there were accounts that defy the belief of even the most ardent believer: a sighting of him at the Vatican even though he never left the San Giovanni monastery; the transfiguration of his face into that of Jesus’ during consecration; a worker named Giovanni Savino who lost an eye that later materialized under the bandages after Pio visited him in bilocation.

http://www.padrepioonline.com/

There is also the dying teen in a Pennsylvania hospital who woke and spoke about being visited by St. Pio who came into the room and patted his hand and talked to him.

He’s an extraordinary saint. Of course, all these great followers and friends of our Lord are.


102 posted on 10/25/2007 3:11:27 PM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: Campion

Would you like some more examples of prayer to saints or will you be honest and admit that Catholics pray to saints


103 posted on 10/25/2007 3:11:28 PM PDT by ears_to_hear (Pray for America)
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To: ears_to_hear
Your church teaches only Jesus "kept the law perfectly"

I think you just found an error in the catechism.

(Congratulations!)

The citation for that sentence points to John 8:46, which could certainly be used as a prooftext for Christ's sinlessness, but not the idea that sinlessness is his exclusive prerogative.

104 posted on 10/25/2007 3:14:41 PM PDT by Campion
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To: OpusatFR

Jesus suffered 3 hours on a cross for the sins of men, to reconcile the elect to the Father.

THREE HOURS was deemed sufficient by the Father for that to be COMPLETED .

Padre Pio must surely be something , to endure that same sufficient suffering for 50 years.
He must be more of a man than Christ was ?

Can you not see how this stigmata does not cause one to look to Christ, the author and finisher of our faith, but to the old monk and his stamina and endurance and HIS holiness?

This does not point to Christ and make His REAL suffering for us seem unendurable by us and cause us to be thankful and worship HIM .. it makes us look at a man and say that he could endure it maybe we could too.

That my friend is the work of Satan.
.


105 posted on 10/25/2007 3:15:20 PM PDT by ears_to_hear (Pray for America)
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To: ears_to_hear
So Mary could NOT have been sinless right?

Read the sections in the Catechism on Mary.

106 posted on 10/25/2007 3:15:33 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: ears_to_hear
Catholics, and Orthodox, pray to saints.

But the word originally only means "to ask respectfully". I pray you to understand that!

But will you be honest, and admit that we don't give saints the worship of "latria" due to God alone?

107 posted on 10/25/2007 3:16:42 PM PDT by Campion
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To: ears_to_hear
Can you not see how this stigmata does not cause one to look to Christ, the author and finisher of our faith, but to the old monk and his stamina and endurance and HIS holiness?... That my friend is the work of Satan.

No, it shows the monk's unity with Christ and his identification with His Lord's sufferings. You do the work of Satan to twist it into something it is not.

108 posted on 10/25/2007 3:18:02 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: ears_to_hear
Can you not see how this stigmata does not cause one to look to Christ, the author and finisher of our faith, but to the old monk and his stamina and endurance and HIS holiness?

Padre Pio would get a good laugh out of that.

Next he would point out to you that he was forbidden to show anyone the stigmata, so if you don't like them, don't look at them (or try to look at them), look at Jesus instead.

109 posted on 10/25/2007 3:18:55 PM PDT by Campion
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To: ears_to_hear

One great piece of advice I was given lately was not to engage in conversation with demons.


110 posted on 10/25/2007 3:19:29 PM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: Campion

He was also confined to his cell, to his monastery and not permitted for long years to speak to the outside world.


111 posted on 10/25/2007 3:21:56 PM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: NYer

“He had the charism to read souls, bilocation, and other great gifts. At night, Satan would attack him in his cell.”

These are usual signs of great holiness among monastics.


112 posted on 10/25/2007 3:31:52 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis

St. John Vianney, St. Clare of Assisi.


113 posted on 10/25/2007 3:32:52 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("For is he not of noble birth? The first child born above the Earth!")
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To: Tax-chick; NYer; Mrs. Don-o

In all honesty, bilocation is not at all uncommon in Eastern Christianity. I understand that it is uncommon in the West. At any rate, at Mt. Athos right now there are several spiritual fathers, elders, who are known to bilocate.


114 posted on 10/25/2007 3:56:51 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Campion; drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; ...
I think you just found an error in the catechism.
(Congratulations!)

The citation for that sentence points to John 8:46, which could certainly be used as a prooftext for Christ's sinlessness, but not the idea that sinlessness is his exclusive prerogative.

So your church has a major error in its teaching? Men can be sinless?

"Only Christ is sinless on his own account. Mary was rendered sinless on account of a prevenient action of God, applying Christ's future merits and perfection to her. Mary did no work to make her a sinless vehicle for God-in-the-flesh. It was purely on account of God's grace, and the work of Christ, that Mary was made sinless.

That means Mary sinned as do all men, but she was declared righteous by a work of Christ as are all born again, (saved) men,http://www.churchyear.net/ic.html

2 Corinthians 6 >> 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 Peter 2 >> 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.

Hebrews 10 >> 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our [1] conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

2 Corinthians 5 is about the sinless life of Christ.

This is YOUR Catechism. It was vetted by the Magestrum and pope that acts infallibly in matters of faith according to you.

If they are wrong here, perhaps they are wrong elsewhere.

578 Jesus, Israel's Messiah and therefore the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, was to fulfill the Law by keeping it in its all embracing detail - according to his own words, down to "the least of these commandments".330He is in fact the only one who could keep it perfectly.331 On their own admission the Jews were never able to observe the Law in its entirety without violating the least of its precepts.332 This is why every year on the Day of Atonement the children of Israel ask God's forgiveness for their transgressions of the Law. The Law indeed makes up one inseparable whole, and St. James recalls, "Whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it."333

579 This principle of integral observance of the Law not only in letter but in spirit was dear to the Pharisees. By giving Israel this principle they had led many Jews of Jesus' time to an extreme religious zeal.334 This zeal, were it not to lapse into "hypocritical" casuistry,335 could only prepare the People for the unprecedented intervention of God through the perfect fulfillment of the Law by the only Righteous One in place of all sinners.336

580 The perfect fulfillment of the Law could be the work of none but the divine legislator, born subject to the Law in the person of the Son.337 In Jesus, the Law no longer appears engraved on tables of stone but "upon the heart" of the Servant who becomes "a covenant to the people", because he will "faithfully bring forth justice".338 Jesus fulfills the Law to the point of taking upon himself "the curse of the Law" incurred by those who do not "abide by the things written in the book of the Law, and do them", for his death took place to redeem them "from the transgressions under the first covenant".339

"............. 582 Going even further, Jesus perfects the dietary law, so important in Jewish daily life, by revealing its pedagogical meaning through a divine interpretation: "Whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him. . . (Thus he declared all foods clean.). . . What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts. . ."346 In presenting with divine authority the definitive interpretation of the Law, Jesus found himself confronted by certain teachers of the Law who did not accept his interpretation of the Law, guaranteed though it was by the divine signs that accompanied it.347 This was the case especially with the sabbath laws, for he recalls, often with rabbinical arguments, that the sabbath rest is not violated by serving God and neighbor,348 which his own healings did."

Here is the bottom line. Only one that never sinned could take the sin and the curse on himself , Mary could not have done that because like all the saints she was freed from the guilt of sin ONLY through the death of Christ.

She was a sinner like all of us, to be consistent in its doctrine in this area is a problem for your church

115 posted on 10/25/2007 3:59:03 PM PDT by ears_to_hear (Pray for America)
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To: Pyro7480
Read the sections in the Catechism on Mary.

Are you saying that your church is inconsistent or confused??

116 posted on 10/25/2007 4:03:18 PM PDT by ears_to_hear (Pray for America)
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To: Campion
Padre Pio would get a good laugh out of that.
Next he would point out to you that he was forbidden to show anyone the stigmata, so if you don't like them, don't look at them (or try to look at them), look at Jesus instead.

So no one ever saw the supposed wounds?

117 posted on 10/25/2007 4:05:08 PM PDT by ears_to_hear (Pray for America)
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To: ears_to_hear
T:

Like a laser as always !


118 posted on 10/25/2007 4:09:40 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Secret Agent Man
Your revelation examples are symbolic language.

Of course! And what it symbolizes, obviously, is those in heaven offering prayers for us on earth.

You need to learn the difference between symbolism and literal language.

LOL! (Sorry.)

OK, what do you think it symbolizes?

And why should I prefer your personal interpretation to the beliefs held by the overwhelming majority of Christians (1.4 billion Catholics + Orthodox + Anglicans out of 2.1 billion world Christians)-- for over 19 centuries?

Yes the dead in Christ are part of the Church Universal, but that does not mean that those still alive on the earth can communicate to them as if there were still here in their bodies.

That's not quite an accurate description of historic Christian belief. We don't believe we can communicate in exactly the same way. We can't, for instance, see them or touch them. They can, however, pray with us and for us. It's a spiritual thing.

God’s Word says you don’t try to talk to the dead

No, it doesn't. God's word forbids necromancy. It does not forbid us to talk to those you the dead. Jesus --- and He is not God of the dead, but of the living -- showed us that.

119 posted on 10/25/2007 4:12:10 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
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To: ears_to_hear
Here is the bottom line. Only one that never sinned could take the sin and the curse on himself , Mary could not have done that because like all the saints she was freed from the guilt of sin ONLY through the death of Christ.

She was a sinner like all of us, to be consistent in its doctrine in this area is a problem for your church

Amen!

My husband said he stopped being a Catholic when he realized the church doesn't really believe many of its own teachings.

As an altar boy he said he learned that although sins are supposedly forgiven through the confessional, it is not necessary that the confessional be utilized.

Imagine that, he reasoned. Men can actually seek and receive forgiveness from the only mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus.

The jig was up.

120 posted on 10/25/2007 4:13:56 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: NYer
We are the Body of Jesus Christ.

That's a statement that I haven't read before. Could you expound on it a little? It is a concept which is certainly foreign to Protestant theology.

121 posted on 10/25/2007 4:14:34 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: OpusatFR
One great piece of advice I was given lately was not to engage in conversation with demons.

I assume that means you do not like what I am saying.

Truth is often difficult, especially if it means we have to reconsider what we have been taught to believe.

122 posted on 10/25/2007 4:22:15 PM PDT by ears_to_hear (Pray for America)
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To: XeniaSt

Hey guy,

Hello!


123 posted on 10/25/2007 4:23:38 PM PDT by ears_to_hear (Pray for America)
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To: PAR35
That's a statement that I haven't read before. Could you expound on it a little? It is a concept which is certainly foreign to Protestant theology.

What kind of non Catholic are you?

Protestants believe that the church, made up of the elect is the body of Christ.

http://www.ldolphin.org/church3.html

124 posted on 10/25/2007 4:31:39 PM PDT by ears_to_hear (Pray for America)
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To: ears_to_hear
Hey !
I just love it when you drive by.

You excoriate them with their own documents.

shalom b'shem Yah'shua

125 posted on 10/25/2007 4:32:36 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Kolokotronis
... at Mt. Athos right now there are several spiritual fathers, elders, who are known to bilocate.

Kewl.

The newsletter from our curriculum provider had a piece about a teenage boy, one of the students, who was observed to bilocate. He was seen at his church at the same time as he was being killed by a car on his street. Or something like that. They said he was a very holy young man.

126 posted on 10/25/2007 4:37:17 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("For is he not of noble birth? The first child born above the Earth!")
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To: cheme

Thank you all for the answers you posted to my question—I haven’t had a chance to read them all but will later.


127 posted on 10/25/2007 4:54:58 PM PDT by pillut48 (CJ in TX --Soccer Mom and proud RUSH REPUBLICAN! WIN, FRED, WIN!!!)
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To: NYer

**Italy’s Padre Pio ‘faked his stigmata with acid’ **

What a lunatic article.

The book I finished reading about Padre Pio by Ruffin speaks of observation of him on long intervals. I don’t remember the exact hours right now.

Sometimes people were with him constantly.

Another thing...........as he got closer and closer to death, the stigmata disappeared slowly. When he did die, he had no traces of any stigmata, any scars — nothing was there.

Acid would have left indications of burning.

Like I said above, what a lunatic story.


128 posted on 10/25/2007 4:58:08 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: AnAmericanMother

What book did you read?


129 posted on 10/25/2007 4:58:58 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: ears_to_hear
The new allegations were greeted with an instant dismissal from his supporters. The Catholic Anti-Defamation League said Mr Luzzatto was a liar and was "spreading anti-Catholic libels"..."We would like to suggest to Mr Luzzatto that he dedicates his energies to studying religion properly."

Typical response.

130 posted on 10/25/2007 5:01:40 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: tiki
Dear Tiki, I will pray for your mother.

May angels lead her into Paradise;
may the martyrs receive her at her coming
and lead her to the holy city of Jerusalem.
May a choir of angels receive her,
and with Lazarus,
who once was poor,
may she have eternal rest.
Amen.

131 posted on 10/25/2007 5:16:16 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
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To: Quix
Reason and historical facts don’t seem to have any impact.

This perplexes me. Are you not aware that Bible-believing Christians have asked the saints and angels to pray with and for them since at least a millennium before the Protestant era? On what authority do you say that your personal opinion trumps all the centuries of Christian belief and practice?

132 posted on 10/25/2007 5:25:49 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
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To: Secret Agent Man
Normal human beings are told NOT to talk

Chapter and verse, please.

133 posted on 10/25/2007 5:27:52 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
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To: Secret Agent Man
Normal human beings are told NOT to talk

Chapter and verse, please.

134 posted on 10/25/2007 5:27:57 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
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To: NYer
Catholics pray to saints in the same manner I am posting to you or I talk to my neighbor. In essence, praying and talking are essentially the same. When we ask for something, we do it in Jesus' name or God's name. That saint or even someone else that has died and is in heaven can ask God for a favor for you.
135 posted on 10/25/2007 5:28:26 PM PDT by DaGman (`)
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To: Tolkien
You Catholics are saying that praying to Jesus is to no effect.

I'm surprised at you, Tolkein.

This is untrue, and a slander against Catholics. It is contradicted by every possible source of Catholic teaching: the Bible, the Fathers, the Councils, the encyclicals, the catechisms, the daily practiuce of Catholics --- everything.

And it is against God's commandment for you to bear this false witness against your Catholic neighbor.

136 posted on 10/25/2007 5:32:56 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
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To: tiki; nickcarraway; sandyeggo; Lady In Blue; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; Catholicguy; RobbyS; ...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1916285/posts?page=40#40

I am the way, the truth and the life - Words of Jesus Christ our Lord, Our Savior,  the Son of God.

May The Lord bless you and keep you;  

May the Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you;

May the Lord lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace.

And may Our Lady bless you with   her maternal love


I
n the name of the Father, and of the Son
and the Holy Spirit. Amen

Catholic Prayer Ping

Please address all prayers to tiki;    

If you would like to be added to the Catholic Prayer Ping List, please FReepmail me.

 


137 posted on 10/25/2007 5:33:09 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Secret Agent Man

You don’t believe in intercessory prayer?


138 posted on 10/25/2007 5:33:35 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
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To: tiki; 4woodenboats; abletruth; Accountable One; Aeronaut; AKA Elena; Alamo-Girl; AlGone2001; ...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1916285/posts?page=40#40

Prayer ping.

Please post your replies to tiki;  


Please know that I am praying. May God provide healing in this situation.

Blessings,
[Salvation for] trussell


If you want on/off trussell's prayer ping list, please let Salvation know. All requests happily honored.


139 posted on 10/25/2007 5:35:09 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

The clarity of Scriptures regarding the utter Supremacy of Christ is more than sufficient for me

to trump anything else mortal man might concoct.


140 posted on 10/25/2007 5:49:42 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Secret Agent Man
Being ‘alive in Christ’ does not mean they have the powers of Christ. Or can do everything that Christ can do.

That's pretty hard to square with this:

John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, all who have faith in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

And then there's this (Acts 5:15-16):

"People brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter's shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by evil spirits, and all of them were healed."

And it's not as if anybody has "powers" independent of, opposed to, or in competition with Christ. Everything comes from Christ. It is through Him and by Him that Peter's shadow could cure the sick and Paul could raise the dead. I think we can agree on that.

141 posted on 10/25/2007 5:50:07 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Dozens of times in the King James Version of the Bible the word "pray" clearly means not "worship,"

Of course Shakespeare was writing at the same time and folks were always saying 'I pray thee', were we would say 'I ask you'. These days, of course we don't often use 'pray' in this way, nor do we use the second person singular (thee), except for religious or poetic purposes. The language changes meaning over time, pays to remember that.

142 posted on 10/25/2007 5:54:43 PM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (No Covenant with Death: Giuliani Shall Not Pass!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Show me any prophet of God, any apostle, any believer named in the bible praying to the dead to intercede on their behalf. Show me any prophet of God, any apostle, any believer named in the bible praying to anyone but God. Show me the verses where Jesus instructed people to pray to dead saints so they could intercede on their behalf.


143 posted on 10/25/2007 6:13:08 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man
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To: Tolkien

Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

hmm:)


144 posted on 10/25/2007 6:22:13 PM PDT by TheStickman
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To: Secret Agent Man

Show me the verses where Jesus instructed folks to type religious arguments on keyboards, and send them through cyberspace.


145 posted on 10/25/2007 6:23:33 PM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (No Covenant with Death: Giuliani Shall Not Pass!)
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To: Salvation
This one:


146 posted on 10/25/2007 6:25:52 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Secret Agent Man
Wait a minute. Can we please look at what you just did?

You asked why pray to saints, why not pray just to Jesus. So that question was answered - or, at least, an answer was attempted.

In response to the answer to the question you raised, you raise the issue of praying to people who "have gone before". And you seem to suggest that the example of Paul asking for the prayers of others is irrelevant because those others were "alive on the earth" at the time of his asking.

Now that may be a perfectly good objection to praying to the saints in heaven, but it is completely irrelevant response to the answer to your initial question, which was about asking for the prayers of others.

In fact, by your changing the subject, you delay our getting to know if you thought tht was a decent answer or not. I'm sorry, but I think of that as "Bait and Switch". It's not a tactic for straightforward conversation for conversation that explores and understands differences. It is more combative than discursive in nature. It is obfuscatory and confuses two issues and pretty much assures that the conversation will not move forward. And it risks raising the ambient temperature by calling into question the reason for the initial inquiry. Are you interested our thinking on why it is good to ask for intercessions, or are you rather, when it comes to Catholics praying to the Saints, going to throw up one objection after another like artillery shells thinking, or seeming to think, that if one shell misses another may hit and the main thing is to keep the barrage up and the enemy's head down?

Despite possible appearances, I don't mean this personally. I don't know you from Adam and recall no previous interaction. The lack of acknowledgment of the answer given and the changing of the question just stuck out like a doily in a midden.

147 posted on 10/25/2007 6:30:43 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: NYer; Simul iustus et peccator; Disgusted in Texas; B Knotts; ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton; corbos; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic Ping List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to all note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

148 posted on 10/25/2007 6:35:13 PM PDT by narses (...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla

Specious; didn’t answer any of my valid questions. Fact is you cannot find any examples, so you are reduced to twisting my words around and making glib comments.


149 posted on 10/25/2007 6:45:07 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man
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To: ears_to_hear

“She was a sinner like all of us, to be consistent in its doctrine in this area is a problem for your church.”

Hmmm, no. She IS the Mother of God. She committed no sin in her time on this earth. There is not problem with the Catholic teaching of this mystery. The problem lies with those who are ignorant; willingly or unwillingly so.


150 posted on 10/25/2007 6:46:47 PM PDT by TheStickman
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