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The Jews and the Second Coming
Ignatius Insight ^ | Roy H. Schoeman

Posted on 11/01/2007 11:29:06 AM PDT by NYer

How might the attacks against the Jews, particularly those of the past century, relate to biblical prophecy about the role of the Jews in the Second Coming? For the fact that Christ " will come again in glory, to judge the living

and the dead", in the words of the Nicene Creed, is a dogma of the Catholic faith. [1] It is attested to by the words of Jesus Himself, recorded numerous times in the New Testament (Matthew 16:27; Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26; Matthew 24:30; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:27). As described in Matthew 24:30-3 1:

[T]hen all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Although the fact of the Second Coming is certain, when it will come cannot be known beforehand with certitude:
"But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father" (Mark 13:32).

So when they [the disciples] had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" He [Jesus] said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority" (Acts 1:6-7).
As the Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 673, puts it:
Since the Ascension Christ's coming in glory has been imminent, even though "it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority" (Acts 1:7; cf. Mk 13:32).
Nonetheless, it will be preceded by certain signs that the wise will be able to discern. In the verses immediately following the description of the Second Coming quoted above, Jesus adds (Matthew 24:32-33):
"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates."
What are these signs? Some we know from the words of Jesus recounted in Matthew 24:

–It will be a time of great upheaval, of both wars between nations and natural disasters (Matthew 24:7): "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places."

–There will be widespread hostility to Christianity (Matthew 24:9): "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake."

–There will be many false prophets (Matthew 24:11, 24): "[M]any false prophets will arise and lead many astray... For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. "

–The "abomination of desolation" (understood by the Church Fathers to be the Antichrist [2]) will stand in the "holy place" (Matthew 24:15, 31): "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ... then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven ... and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with great power and majesty." [3]

–The Gospel will have been preached to the whole world (Matthew 24:14): "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come."

In almost every period since these prophecies were made, there have been those who have thought that these signs were fulfilled in their age and that the Second Coming was immanent. The current age, too, has prompted such speculation, for instance by Pope St. Plus X 'In 1903:
When all this [the widespread apostasy from. God] is considered there is good reason to fear lest this great perversity may be ... perhaps the beginning of those evils which are reserved for the last days; and that there may be already in the world the "Son of Perdition" of whom the Apostle speaks (II. Thess. ii., 3). Such, in truth, is the audacity and the wrath employed everywhere in Persecuting religion, in combating the dogmas of the faith, in brazen effort to uproot and destroy all relations between man and the Divinity! [this] is the distinguishing mark of Antichrist. [4]
The discussion that follows is not intended to "prove" that we are in the last days. Many of the prophecies cited have multiple interpretations, and it is certainly speculative to associate them with particular events of our day. Yet some aspects appear to be being fulfilled in our times in unprecedented ways:

–Jerusalem will return again to Jewish hands shortly before the Second Coming (Luke 21:24): "Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (A description of the Second Coming then follows in verses 25-28). Jerusalem was in the hands of Gentiles continuously from the fall of the Jewish nation in A.D. 70 until it was recaptured by the modern State of Israel in the 1967 war.

–Sometime before the Second Coming, two-thirds of the Jews in "the whole land" will be exterminated (Zechariah 13:8-9):
"In the whole land, says the LORD, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive. And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, and I will answer them. I will say, 'They are my people'; and they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'"
In fact, during the Holocaust almost exactly two-thirds of Europe's Jews perished (estimates vary between 60% and 72%). [5]

–The Jewish nation will be reborn in a single day (Isaiah 66:5-8):
"Hear the word of the LORD.... Hark, an uproar from the city! A voice from the temple! The voice of the LORD, rendering recompense to his enemies! Before she was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment? For as soon as Zion was in labor she brought forth her sons."
This was quite literally fulfilled when on May 14, 1948, the modern State of Israel was born in a single day following the passage of UN Resolution 181 partitioning "Palestine" into the Arab State of Jordan and the Jewish State of Israel.

-Jews will be regathered to Israel from around the entire world. One such prophecy is Ezekiel 36:22-28. Although often taken in a spiritual sense as fulfilled at the first coming of Christ, [6] it might well also refer to the Second Coming, for biblical prophecies frequently refer to different events taking place in different epochs:
"Thus says the Lord God ... I will take you from the nations, and gather you from all the countries, and bring you into your own land.... You shall dwell in the land which I gave to your fathers; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God."
Similarly, Jeremiah 16:14-15 is typically seen as referring to the Jews' return from exile in Babylon. Yet since Moscow lies precisely [7] due north of Jerusalem, some see in it a reference to the current immigration to Israel of Jews from Russia:
"Therefore, behold, the days are coming," says the LORD, 11 when it shall no longer be said, 'As the LORD lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt,' but 'As the LORD lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the north country and out of all the countries where he had driven them.' For I will bring them back to their own land which I gave to their fathers."
The current return of the Jews to Israel apparently even includes Jews from the ten lost tribes. Over the past decade about 600 "B'nei Manashe", a tribe from the Indian-Burmese border, have immigrated to Israel. These people believe themselves to be the lost tribe of Manassah, exiled from Israel by the Assyrians in 723 B.C. Their oral tradition speaks of the Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; they circumcise male children on the eighth day, as required by Jewish law; use prayer shawls with fringes, as do Jews; practice ritual purification as described in the Old Testament; and follow many other ancient Jewish religious customs. Their priests use the Hebrew name of God as it appears in the Torah ("Yahweh") and invoke Mount Sinai, Mount Moriah, and Mount Zion. The Israel government is allowing them to immigrate on the presumption that they are in fact the lost tribe of Manassah, while continuing to investigate their claim. [8]

–The new Jewish state shall be extremely prosperous (Isaiah 66:9-14):
"Shall I bring to the birth and not cause to bring forth?" says the LORD; "shall 1, who cause to bring forth, shut the womb?" says your God. "Rejoice with Jerusalem, and be glad for her, all you who love her; rejoice with her in joy, all you who mourn over her.... Behold, I will extend prosperity to her like a river, and the wealth of the nations like an overflowing stream ... ; you shall be comforted in Jerusalem. You shall see, and your heart shall rejoice; your bones shall flourish like the grass; and it shall be known that the hand of the LORD is with his servants, and his indignation is against his enemies."
–The fight over the city of Jerusalem will cause a world war (Zechariah 12:1-3; also Joel 3:2 and Revelation 16:16):
"Thus says the LORD ... Lo, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of reeling to all the peoples round about; it will be against Judah also in the siege against Jerusalem. On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it shall grievously hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth will come together against it."

Most would agree that Jerusalem, as the focal point of tensions in the Middle East, has become a "heavy stone for all the peoples", and certainly all who have "come together against it" since 1948 have "grievously hurt themselves".

–But Israel will be miraculously militarily strong and able to successfully defend itself (Zechariah 12:6-9):

"On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a blazing pot in the midst of wood, like a flaming torch among sheaves; and they shall devour to the right and to the left all the peoples round about, while Jerusalem shall still be inhabited in its place, in Jerusalem. And the LORD Will give victory to the tents of Judah.... On that day the LORD will put a shield about the inhabitants of Jerusalem so that the feeblest among them on that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the angel of the LORD, at their head. And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem."
—There will be a widespread conversion of the Jews. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it: "The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by 'all Israel,' for 'a hardening has come upon part of Israel' in their 'unbelief' toward Jesus" (Rom 11:20-26; Cf. Mt 23:39). [9] This has been the understanding ever since the Church Fathers, for instance, St. Augustine: "In connection with the last judgment, therefore, we who believe can be sure of the following truths ... the Jews will believe". [10] One of the scriptural sources for this belief is Hosea 3:5: "Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and they shall come in fear to the LORD and to his goodness in the latter days." Blessed Pope Pius IX explicitly cited this passage as referring to the conversion of the Jews in the end times. [11]

St. Paul's Letter to the Romans contains an extensive discussion of the conversion of the Jews in the end times that will be explored at length in the next chapter (Romans 11:25-26):
"Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved."
Jesus Himself prophesied the conversion of the Jews prior to the Second Coming when He said (Matthew 23:37-39):
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.... Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"
Here Jesus is saying that he will not be seen again (i.e., the Second Coming will not occur) until "you" (the Jews) say, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" (i.e., acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah).

Zechariah, too, foretold the conversion of the Jews when he said that they would weep bitterly over one "they have pierced" (Zechariah 12:10):
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born."
–The Antichrist, also known as the Son of Perdition, will make his appearance (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4):
"Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."
–This is further explained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass though a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers (Cf. Lk 18:8; Mt 24:12) ... in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist (Cf. 2 Thess 24-12; 1 Thess 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; 1 Jn 2:18, 22). [12]
–The Antichrist's appearance will be followed by the war to end all wars, centered in the Holy Land. Just when it appears that evil has been victorious, Christ will come in glory and bring victory. This is suggested in a number of passages in both the Old and the New Testaments; most are mysterious in nature and subject to multiple interpretations. A few of the most commonly cited are:
Revelation 20:7-13: Satan will be loosed from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, that is, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.
This is one of Scripture's classic descriptions of Armageddon, the final battle between good and evil, and the Second Coming. The Antichrist (the "false prophet") will deceive

the nations of the earth and will launch war against Jerusalem ("the beloved city"), appearing victorious until God directly intervenes, throwing the enemy into hell ("the lake of fire and sulphur"), at which point Christ will come in glory ("the white throne and him who sat upon it") to judge the living and the dead.
Zechariah 14: 1-9: "Behold, a day of the LORD is coming, when ... I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered.... Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward ... and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD your God will come, and all the holy ones with him. On that day there shall be neither cold nor frost. And there shall be continuous day (it is known to the LORD), not day and not night, for at evening time there shall be light. On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem.... And the LORD Will become king over all the earth; on that day the LORD Will be one and his name one."
This is another depiction of the final battle, in which all of the nations gather against and make war on Jerusalem and will be victorious until Christ appears, directly intervening and bringing victory. That will then be the end of the world as we know it (day and night shall end), and all will be ruled by Christ. [13]

Related to the prophecies about the Antichrist and the final war is the belief that prior to the Second Coming, the Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt. This is based on an interpretation of Daniel 9-12, in which Daniel 9 refers to the Second Coming of Christ. Jesus Himself explicitly associates this prophecy with the Second Coming in Matthew 24:15-30 (extracts):
When you see the desolating abomination spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place then those in Judea must flee to the mountains ... for at that time there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will be. And if those days had not been shortened, no one would be saved, but for the sake of the elect they will be shortened.... False messiahs and false prophets will arise, and they will perform signs and wonders so great as to deceive, if that were possible, even the elect.... Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light ... and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven ... and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Although the prophecies of Daniel are at times associated with other events, [14] too, since Jesus explicitly applies them to the Second Coming, that must be at least one of their intended fulfillments. The prophecies mention the sacrifice ceasing and the temple being profaned; the Church Fathers [interpret] this in a spiritual sense, to refer to a cessation of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. But, it is conceivable that it might also have a literal fulfillment, if the Temple in Jerusalem should be rebuilt. And this is now within the realm of possibility. In 1967, for the first time in almost two thousand years, Jews regained possession of the Temple Mount, and there are now organizations in Israel attempting to rebuild the Temple [15] Should it be rebuilt on the Temple Mount, also claimed by Islam as a holy site, it is not hard to envision how that in itself could precipitate the global war known as "Armageddon".

As stated earlier, the purpose of this discussion is not to "prove" that the Second Coming is near. Many of the proposed interpretations of the prophecies are speculative. Yet cumulatively they suggest that the Second Coming takes place at a time when the Jewish people have returned to Israel and formed a Jewish nation. If this is, in fact, a precondition for the return of Christ, the concerted efforts of the past century to eliminate the Jews and, failing that, to destroy the nascent State of Israel, well might be part of a diabolical attempt to prevent the Second Coming.

Endnotes:

[1] Dogmas are "truths contained in divine Revelation ... in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith" – Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 88.

[2] For instance St. Irenaeus, Irenaeus against Heresies, book 5 Chap. 25; Ante-Nicene Fathers, Roberts and Donaldson, eds. (Peabody, Mass.: Hendricksen, 1995), 1:553-54, and St. Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, nos. 62-63; ibid., 5:218.

[3] Confraternity of Christian Doctrine translation (The Holy Bible, Douay and Confraternity Version [New York: P.J. Kenedy and Sons, 196.tj).

[4] E Supremi, October 4, 1903.

[5] For instance, the American Jewish Congress' 1955 estimate Of 72% (Yad Vashem Bulletin, no. 10 [April 1961]) or that of the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust of 60% (p. 1799, Table 1).

[6] For example, St. Cyprian in his Epistle LXIX, no. 1; Ante-Nicene Fathers 5:376.

[7] A line drawn directly due north from Jerusalem passes within 100 miles of Moscow.

[8] Jerusalem Post Magazine, March 27, 2002.

[9] Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 674.

[10]St. Augustine, City of God, bk. 20, chap. 30 (Garden City, N.Y: Doubleday Image, 1958), p. 492.

[11] Letter written by Blessed Pope Pius IX to the Lemann brothers, February 14, 1877. Lemann brothers, Histoire Complete de l'Idee Messianique, translated in Rev. Denis Fahey, The Kingship of Christ and the Conversion of the Jewish Nation (Palmdale, Calif: Christian Book Club of America, 1993), p. 102.

[12] Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 675.

[13] Other relevant passages appear in Isaiah 66 and Ezekiel 38-39.

[14] Typically with the reign of Antiochus IV and with the first coming of Christ. See for instance The New American Bible (New York: Catholic Book, 1986), footnote to Daniel 9, p. 1035, and The Holy Bible, Douay and Confraternity Version, note, p. 965.

[15] For instance, The Temple Institute, 36 Misgav Ladach St., Jerusalem (www.templeinstitute.org).



TOPICS: Catholic; Judaism; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: apocalypse; bookreview; jews; prophecy; salvation; secondcoming
The author, Roy H. Schoeman, was born in a suburb of New York City of “Conservative" Jewish parents who had fled Nazi Germany.  His Jewish education and formation was received under some of the most prominent Rabbis in contemporary American Jewry, including Rabbi Arthur Hertzberg, probably the foremost Conservative Rabbi in the U.S. and his hometown Rabbi growing up;  Rabbi Arthur Green, later the head of the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College who was his religion teacher and mentor during high school and early college; and Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach, a prominent Hasidic Rabbi with whom he lived in Israel for several months.

His secular education included a B.Sc. from M.I.T. and an M.B.A. magna cum laude from Harvard Business School. Midway through a career of teaching and consulting (he had been appointed to the faculty of the Harvard Business School) he experienced an unexpected and instantaneous conversion to Christianity which led to a dramatic refocus of his activities. Since then he has pursued theological studies at several seminaries, helped produce and host a Catholic Television talk show, and edited and written for several Catholic books and reviews.

• Visit Roy's website, which contains much more information about Salvation is from the Jews, at www.salvationisfromthejews.com.

1 posted on 11/01/2007 11:29:10 AM PDT by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Excellent book!


2 posted on 11/01/2007 11:29:41 AM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer

Wow, you’re really trying to get people to look at this book, aren’t you? ;-)


3 posted on 11/01/2007 11:31:23 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: NYer

Bump to read later.


4 posted on 11/01/2007 11:32:23 AM PDT by mnehring (Ron Paul is to the Constitution what Fred Phelps is to the Bible.)
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To: Pyro7480
It is an excellent volume.

It's interesting that Shlomo Carlebach, Hasidic rabbi, was the teacher of one of America's most prominent Catholic Jews and also of the world's most prominent Hasidic reggae star.

5 posted on 11/01/2007 11:37:20 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that so many self-proclaimed "Constitutionalists" know so little about the Constitution?)
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To: Pyro7480
Wow, you’re really trying to get people to look at this book, aren’t you? ;-)

Actually, I stumbled upon this excerpt the other day and wanted to share it with others in the forum. What do you think of it?

To see christianity through the eyes of a converted Jew is like turning up the dimmer switch. Now we see things we had not noticed before. His conversion story is simply amazing. He must constantly wonder "why me?" (I know I would be). And to have been escorted before the Blessed Mother! It's just astounding and yet, he is a very humble man.

6 posted on 11/01/2007 11:41:48 AM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer
>the concerted efforts of the past century to eliminate the Jews and, failing that, to destroy the nascent State of Israel, well might be part of a diabolical attempt to prevent the Second Coming

And the flip-side is,
conspiracy types can say
the secular push

for a "Jewish" home
in the Middle East that's not
a theocracy

is a counterfeit,
a diabolical try
to fake God's kingdom

and force the End Times
at our convenience, not God's.
Tin foil cuts both ways.


7 posted on 11/01/2007 11:46:21 AM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: wideawake; Pyro7480
Here Jesus is saying that he will not be seen again (i.e., the Second Coming will not occur) until "you" (the Jews) say, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" (i.e., acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah).

A few months before he died, one of the nation’s most prominent rabbis, Yitzhak Kaduri, supposedly wrote the name of the Messiah on a small note which he requested would remain sealed until now. When the note was unsealed, it revealed what many have known for centuries: Yehoshua, or Yeshua (Jesus), is the Messiah.
Rabbi Reveals Name of the Messiah

Fascinating!

8 posted on 11/01/2007 11:55:34 AM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer

Another book to buy...THANKS!


9 posted on 11/01/2007 12:38:32 PM PDT by Bradís Gramma (Mother of the Bride here, treat me with respect for once, will ya? ;))
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To: NYer
Baruch HaShem Yah'shua

YHvH is my salvation


10 posted on 11/01/2007 12:44:32 PM PDT by Uriíel-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: NYer

For reference.


11 posted on 11/01/2007 12:49:50 PM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: NYer
This one in particular caught my attention:
–Sometime before the Second Coming, two-thirds of the Jews in "the whole land" will be exterminated (Zechariah 13:8-9):
"In the whole land, says the LORD, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive. And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, and I will answer them. I will say, 'They are my people'; and they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'"
In fact, during the Holocaust almost exactly two-thirds of Europe's Jews perished (estimates vary between 60% and 72%). [5]
I would think most conservative Jewish scholars would interpret "the whole land" as referring to the ancient land of Israel.

Seems that if you are going to twist the prophecies to the extent suggested here you can pretty much make the Bible say anything you want it to say.

And this:

Jesus Himself prophesied the conversion of the Jews prior to the Second Coming when He said (Matthew 23:37-39):
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.... Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"
Here Jesus is saying that he will not be seen again (i.e., the Second Coming will not occur) until "you" (the Jews) say, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" (i.e., acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah).
Is that really what Jesus was saying? Is the author limiting the timeframe to some period just prior to the second coming, or can this not describe the entire NT age?

I see a lot of Roman Catholic dogma being mentioned, but just curious, are these authoritative interpretations of the Bible, or one man’s suggestions?

The article reads like a strange mix of modern-day fundamentalist Christian eschatology and moderately conservative Jewish thinking. And it doesn’t seem to do either one very well.

12 posted on 11/01/2007 1:28:45 PM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: NYer; topcat54

Bump to check out the eschatology


13 posted on 11/01/2007 5:20:54 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Therefore the prudent keep silent at that time, for it is an evil time." - Amos 5:13)
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To: topcat54; Alex Murphy
I see a lot of Roman Catholic dogma being mentioned, but just curious, are these authoritative interpretations of the Bible, or one man’s suggestions?

As far as I can see, he is not quoting Catholic dogma. It helps, however, to be familiar with his upbringing.

I went to my synagogue's after-school Jewish religious education program ("Hebrew School") all the way through grammer and high school.  By high school it was the main focus of my identity and activities, even though by that point there were only about a half-dozen of us who had continued in the program.  I was very close to my rabbi and to several of the seminarians who were my Hebrew school teachers.  As Providence had it, my hometown rabbi was Arthur Hertzberg.  One of the highest-profile rabbis in the U.S., he was president of the American Jewish Congress, advisor to several presidents, and wrote a number of best-selling books on Judaism and Jewish history.  My favorite Hebrew school teacher, with whom I was particularly close, also became a very prominent rabbi who later headed the largest Jewish rabbinical seminary in the U.S..
 
Growing up I was unusually devout and passionate about God and Judaism, although the suburban conservative context I was in did not really support a life of piety, faith and prayer. In my senior year of high school I met a very charismatic "mystic" Hasidic Rabbi (Shlomo Carlebach) who used to go around the country giving "concerts" which were really prayer meetings over which he would preside, playing guitar and leading Hasidic worship songs, interspersed with religious story-telling and teaching. He had a large following among Jewish hippies and college students.   I fell in with him, and spent the following summer traveling with him in Israel in his entourage.  I wanted to live my life for God and with God, and while in Israel I considered abandoning my plans to go to M.I.T. in order to stay in Israel studying at one of the Jerusalem yeshivas (which are schools where young men devote their time to prayer and religious study, the closest thing Judaism has to religious life).  But I was turned off by a certain sterility and coldness which I saw in them, and which did not speak of real intimacy with God.

He is coming from a solid foundation in Jewish scripture, which is far more than the books we read in the OT. Add to this the experience he had on Cape Cod.

During the spring of 1987 I took a few days off from work and went to Cape Cod to spend time in the nature there.  I was walking in the early morning, in the woods just back from the beach, when God intervened, dramatically and distinctly, into my life to pull me back and put me onto the right path.  As I was walking, lost in my thoughts, I found myself in the immediate presence of God.  It is as though I "fell into Heaven."  Everything changed from one moment to the next, but in such a smooth and subtle way that I was not aware of any discontinuity.  I felt myself in the immediate presence of God.  I was aware of His infinite exaltedness, and of His infinite and personal love for me.  I saw my life as though I was looking back on it after death, in His presence, and could see everything which I would be happy about and everything which I would wish I had done differently.  I saw that every action I had ever done mattered, for good or for evil.  I saw that everything which had ever happened in my life had been perfectly designed for my own good from the infinitely wise and loving hand of God, not only including but especially those things which I at the time I thought had been the greatest catastrophes.  I saw that my two greatest regrets when I died would be every moment which I had wasted not doing anything of value in the eyes of God, and all of the time and energy which I had wasted worrying about not being loved when every moment of my existence I was bathed in an infinite sea of love, although unaware of it.  I saw that the meaning and purpose of my life was to worship and serve my Lord and Master, in whose presence I found myself.  I wanted to know His name, so that I could worship Him properly, so that I could follow "His" religion.  I remember silently praying "Tell me your name.  I don't mind if You're Apollo, and I have to become a Roman pagan.  I don't mind if You're Krishna, and I have to become a Hindu.  I don't mind if You're Buddha, and I have to become a Buddhist.  As long as You're not Christ, and I have to become a Christian!" (Jewish readers might be able to identify with this deep-rooted aversion to Christianity, based on the mistaken belief that it was the "enemy" which lay behind two thousand years of persecution of the Jews.)

Not surprisingly, He did not tell me His name. Obviously, I wasn't ready to hear it — my resistance at the time was still too great.  But I knew, from that moment on, the meaning and purpose and goal of my life; and that sense has not faded or wavered, although the immediate state of perception did.

When I got back home, everything was different. 

Roy Schoeman has stood in the presence of God and reviewed his life. This is an extraordinary occurence. God chose him for a particular reason. As he said: But I knew from that moment on, the meaning and purpose and goal of my life; and that sense has not faded or wavered ... .

This is only one chapter from the book which is well worth reading. And, if you are interested in the rest of his conversion story, you will find it here.

14 posted on 11/01/2007 5:45:30 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer; Alex Murphy
Thanks for the additional info, but you did not answer my question, are these authoritative interpretations of the Bible, or one man’s suggestions?

Regarding Schoeman’s views, Robert Sungenis has made the charge that "… Roy Schoeman, claims in his book, Salvation is from the Jews (an erroneously anachronistic title in itself) that ‘two thousand years of Catholic theology’ made an ‘error’ teaching us that the ‘Old Covenant was entirely replaced, made null and void, by the New.’"

Is there an imprimatur on the book?

15 posted on 11/01/2007 6:34:46 PM PDT by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends listen to dispensationalists.")
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To: NYer

Thanks for this thread.


16 posted on 11/01/2007 6:36:51 PM PDT by Freedom'sWorthIt
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To: XeniaSt; Brad's Gramma; FourtySeven; NYer; All
Bringing to your attention this thread regarding the Gog/Magog prophesy in Ezekiel 38, 39 (how it started) and now is basically a discussion of the two distinct views in (I believe the posters come from these points of view) Protestant Christian circles re: whether or not the prophecies that involve the NATION of Israel and the people of God, the Jewish people, were all fulfilled in the first coming in the birth, life, death, resurrection, ascension of Jesus Christ and in the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the temple and in the church becoming the one to whom the promises made by God to Israel are now already fulfilled...with no future fulfillment to take place.

It's very interesting to read on this thread the viewpoint of a Jewish Rabbi who is now a "completed" Jew = a Christian - who obviously would not agree that the promises and prophetic Words spoken by God's prophets have already beenfulfilled or are being fulfilled in the church of Jesus Christ where all we who believe in Jesus Christ and who are In Christ are ONE in Christ, there is no distinction between Jew and Christian, that dividing wall has been torn down.

These others have been pinged to this thread. Hopefully some will come here and discuss...since I know I have not accurately described the different views.

17 posted on 11/01/2007 6:52:48 PM PDT by Freedom'sWorthIt
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To: Yehuda; Jeremiah Jr; sauropod; Diego1618; William Terrell; Lijahsbubbe
–The Jewish nation will be reborn in a single day (Isaiah 66:5-8):

"Hear the word of the LORD.... Hark, an uproar from the city! A voice from the temple! The voice of the LORD, rendering recompense to his enemies! Before she was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment? For as soon as Zion was in labor she brought forth her sons."

This was quite literally fulfilled when on May 14, 1948, the modern State of Israel was born in a single day following the passage of UN Resolution 181 partitioning "Palestine" into the Arab State of Jordan and the Jewish State of Israel.

Never mind sloppy theology permeating this article, I just thought it was interesting that at the same time I saw this thread, I had this image open in another window:

"Jewish state" was crossed out and changed to "State of Israel". Of course it's a Jewish state, but I've always been intrigued by the particular change. That is, a home was created for the House of Judah, but the House of Israel was (is) MIA. Yet the new home is named Israel, with a deemphasis on the term "Jewish". Thus, the *whole* state of Israel was born before the labor of his (the house of Israel's) return.

Furthermore, the page does not have a title, nor a formal structure such as "To:", "From:", "Re:", "Date:". It's just a proclamation of being, with a signature of approval, and a time at the end that is separated from the date. It looks more like a chapter and verse reference.

Hosea 6:11 Also, O Judah, he hath set an harvest for thee, when I returned the captivity of my people.

6.11. Also, O Judah, he has set a harvest for you; When I would have returned the captivity of my people:

Not to mention that the statement is the first recognition of Israel from the chief of nations, the United States, made by a President named TRUman.

Before she labored she gave birth. Can the irony get any thicker?

Jeremiah 31:6-9

6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.
7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

18 posted on 11/01/2007 7:59:53 PM PDT by Thinkin' Gal
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To: Thinkin' Gal

How interesting. Definitely more than a document. A proclamation that would change the world from that moment on.


19 posted on 11/01/2007 8:26:47 PM PDT by Lijahsbubbe
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To: Thinkin' Gal
It's interesting to note that every nation on Earth has been created in one day. Some declaration always institutes a nation, and that declaration must made on some one day.

20 posted on 11/01/2007 9:40:57 PM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt; XeniaSt; Brad's Gramma; FourtySeven; NYer; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; topcat54; ...
It's very interesting to read on this thread the viewpoint of a Jewish Rabbi who is now a "completed" Jew = a Christian - who obviously would not agree that the promises and prophetic Words spoken by God's prophets have already beenfulfilled or are being fulfilled in the church of Jesus Christ where all we who believe in Jesus Christ and who are In Christ are ONE in Christ, there is no distinction between Jew and Christian, that dividing wall has been torn down.

The leaning I have in the Spirit is that God keeps all of His promises – every, single, one. Concerning the subject you raised, those promises include this:

But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. - Jer 31:33-37

The structure of “all that there is” whether spiritual or physical, cosmos or quantum - are both unknown and unknowable. The sun, moon and stars still give light. Therefore, the above promises are still in effect - the seed of Israel has not been cast off.

Moreover, Israel’s situation vis-à-vis God was spoken in the Song of Moses (Deuteronomy 32) – which is a history of the future of Israel and includes a prophesy of God’s salvation extended to the Gentiles and the cause of it. The Song of Moses will be sung in heaven along with the Song of the Lamb.

They provoked him to jealousy with strange [gods], with abominations provoked they him to anger. They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new [gods that] came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. Of the Rock [that] begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

And when the LORD saw [it], he abhorred [them], because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end [shall be]: for they [are] a very froward generation, children in whom [is] no faith.

They have moved me to jealousy with [that which is] not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with [those which are] not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. - Deuteronomy 32:16-22

But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you. - Romans 10:19

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. - Romans 11:11

And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints. – Revelation 15:3

As the above indicates, prophesy is more than a little important. All the signs were there but they could not see.

We are in the same boat in reference to prophesy. It requires spiritual discernment. Faith and reason are complimentary, but reason cannot substitute for faith.

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. – Romans 11:18-28

In sum, God does not forget Israel or His promises to Israel. So whatever our understanding of End Times Prophesies, we ought never boast against the branches, after all, Israel is honored in the new heaven and new earth as we can see in the description of the New Jerusalem:

And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. – Revelation 21:12-14

Maranatha, Jesus!!!

21 posted on 11/01/2007 9:47:48 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Thinkin' Gal
"Jewish state" was crossed out and changed to "State of Israel".

But only the second mention of "Jewish State" is crossed out. The first mention of "Jewish state" is left intact in the declaration. Thus Harry Truman is equating the two [a Jewish state = State of Israel] into his single declaration. Am I right or wrong??? And the "State of Israel" does sound better.

22 posted on 11/02/2007 2:55:00 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip; Lijahsbubbe

The first mention is with the indefinite article: “a” Jewish state. The second one, crossed out, is definite, and was changed to make it into the State of Israel. Naturally the two were equated, but in the fullness of time, it will be apparent that the name “Israel” was the wiser choice, regardless of which one sounds better.


23 posted on 11/02/2007 3:24:51 AM PDT by Thinkin' Gal
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To: Thinkin' Gal; Uncle Chip; DouglasKC
In the fullness of time, it will be apparent that the name “Israel” was the wiser choice, regardless of which one sounds better.

You may be right....I'm not sure. I do know that a lot of people would be less confused....Biblically, if they would have called themselves Judah! But.....Israel is fine with me as it does encompass Judah also.

24 posted on 11/02/2007 4:43:55 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: Alamo-Girl

thank you for your summaries. Yes, Romans 11 is clear (to me at least) that one day “all Israel will be saved”. And that God’s calling cannot be revoked.

You put it all very well. Amen!


25 posted on 11/02/2007 7:51:38 PM PDT by Freedom'sWorthIt
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt
Indeed. Praise God!!! Thank you for your encouragements!
26 posted on 11/02/2007 8:33:24 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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