posted on 11/02/2007 1:49:25 PM PDT
To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...
posted on 11/02/2007 1:54:39 PM PDT
("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
To: Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; Gamecock; Frumanchu
At the heart of All Souls Day in the Catholic Church is the belief in Purgatory and the very real likelihood that most of us, even in God's grace, will leave this earth in such a condition that we are not yet ready to experience the beatific vision. Catholics follow the Council of Trent's proclamation which in part states, that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar. The Council of Trent's declaration on the existence of Purgatory and the nature of the relationship between the faithful living and the faithful departed is, interestingly, a very clear and significant portion of the Jewish holiday, Yom Kippur.
Trent strikes again!
posted on 11/02/2007 2:03:48 PM PDT
by Alex Murphy
("Therefore the prudent keep silent at that time, for it is an evil time." - Amos 5:13)
posted on 11/02/2007 11:35:17 PM PDT
(†With God all things are possible.†)
At our “mother parish” (I normally go to a mission church), we had a Requium Mass last night according to the Missal of Bl. John XXIII (missa cantata).
It was wonderful, and I think it was our pastor’s first TLM said in the presence of the faithful. About 300 people were present and the choir was very good.
Our pastor had black vestments (a black fiddleback), with biretta, maniple...the whole works!
posted on 11/03/2007 6:48:56 AM PDT
by B Knotts
While All Saints Day commemorates the lives of saints, known and unknown, All Souls Day commemorates the souls of all the faithful departed. Requiem Masses, or Masses offered for the dead, are celebrated. Following in the Jewish belief that the just, after death, joined their ancestors, it became a comm on practice to offer prayers and oblations so that their "sleep" with the Father would be one of peace, thus "eternal rest." St. Paul, himself a Jew who would have understood this belief and practice, referred to this when he spoke of those who are asleep in Christ (1 Corinthians 15:18). Indeed, we read of him praying for the dead when he says of Onesiphorus, who has died, May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day (2 Timothy 18).
The author seems to be confused about Jewish and early Christian belief about what happens after death.
He cites 1 Corinthians 15:18:
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
Yet Paul is not talking about their hope WHILE they're asleep, but rather their hope at a future resurrection when Christ returns:
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Indeed, we read of him praying for the dead when he says of Onesiphorus, who has died, May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day (2 Timothy 18).
I'm a little puzzled at this statement. Nowhere does scripture say that Onesiphous is dead or that Paul is offering a prayer for the dead. Even if he were, again Paul is referring to a future day of resurrection which "that day" refers to.
As for Jewish belief, some Jews believed in a resurrection, some didn't. But Jews certainly don't believe in prayers for the dead in the same manner as Catholics do.
Bottom line is that All Souls Day is a traditional substitute for the holy days created and instituted by the Lord God. The article mentions one of these, the day of Atonement and Leviticus chapter 23 outlines these true, holy days.
posted on 11/03/2007 8:09:47 AM PDT
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