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Lutherans study German roots
The Post-Bulletin ^ | LeRoy Larson

Posted on 11/03/2007 10:38:41 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

In spring 2005, the Rev. Carol Solovitz, pastor of Zumbro Lutheran, had the honor of preaching the English service for two weeks in Wittenberg, Germany, in Martin Luther's church: the Stadtkirche (city church).

Inspired by her visit, members of Zumbro met in April 2006 with the prospect of forming a tour to Germany. By September 2006 -- a year in advance -- the trip was sold out. On Sept. 10, 2007, a full bus left the church parking lot on its way to the Minneapolis airport, flying Iceland Air to Frankfurt.

On our first day, we toured the Wartburg, where Luther was the first to translate the New Testament into German, providing the basis for modern German. Our next stop was the city of Erfurt, where Luther took his monastic vows and later was ordained as a priest. Other sites in the Luther area included Lutherstadt Eisleben, where we visited the birth and death houses, the church where he was baptized and the church where he gave his last sermons. In Leipzig, we visited the St. Thomas church, where Lutheran composer Johann Sebastian Bach was the director of music for 27 years. In Lutherstadt Wittenberg, the center of Reformation activity, we visited the Castle Church, where Luther placed the 95 theses on the door in 1517.

During a three-day stay in Berlin, we toured the city seeing such famous sites as the Brandenburg Gate, the Capitol building, Potsdamer Platz, the Ku-Damm, the Olympic Stadium and the home of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the Lutheran minister, who during World War II was a central figure in the Protestant church's struggle against Nazism.

Continuing south, we made a stop in Rochester's sister city of Moosburg, staying two nights in the small community of Wartenberg. We further toured Munich; attended a folk music presentation and had dinner in the Hofbrauhaus; toured Bavarian countryside and the Alps; and made stops at Neuschwanstein castle and the Wies church, staying at the delightful hotel Alte Post in Oberammergau. On our last day, we viewed Germany's largest Lutheran church in Ulm, which seats 20,000 people and has the highest church steeple in the world.

The morning after our farewell dinner at the historic Hotel Ritter in Heidelberg, we left Germany with memories of the most beautiful, sunny, comfortable, fall weather, great four-star hotels, excellent meals, great step-on guides and an exposure to the rich heritage of our church.

A legend

Occupying the shelves of the world's libraries, more books were written by and about Martin Luther than any other human being except Jesus of Nazareth. Exposing the scandal of the sale of indulgences, Luther protested the purchase of certificates that allowed a specified number of days of permitted sins for paying a price, which also would allow release of deceased relatives and friends from purgatory. In his teachings, he stressed justification by faith, the universal priesthood of believers and the supremacy of scripture, which form the cornerstone of Protestantism.

Luther wrote music, including the theme song of the Reformation, "A Mighty Fortress is our God," and started the custom of giving presents at Christmas, honoring Christ instead of the saints. He also was the first to use lights on Christmas trees, using candles to replace the stars he noticed shining through the evergreens at night. Today, there are more than 330 million Protestants throughout the world.

The group

Participants in the tour included Clarence and Donna Baalson, Lyle and Dorothy Bacon, Howard and Barbara Borgen, Rachel Boyum, Don and Pat Butters, Gordon Christianson, Sonja Galstad, Cecilia Gulson, Dick and Majel Hall, Guy and Sharon Hostetter, Lance and Carol Jacobson, Tom and Jo Johnson, Ken and Nancy Kaufman, LeRoy and Jo-Anne Larson, Bette Lee, Harris Madsen, Tim and Sharryn Melin, Duane and Addie Muri, Loren and Carol Nelson, Kay Penstone, Noel and Ann Peterson, Gladys Roberts, Delores Sinclair, Carol and Steve Solovitz, Bob and Jean Streyle, Lois Swanson and Jill Wright. I led the tour.

---

About the writer: I was a German teacher at John Marshall High School from 1967 to 1998 and chair of the Foreign Language Department. For 34 years, I took German students on summer tours to Germany.

Getting there: We traveled by coach from the Zumbro Lutheran Church parking lot to the Humphrey Terminal, then flew Iceland Air to Frankfurt.

Where you stayed: We stayed at the SAS Radisson in Erfurt, the Country Park Hotel in Brehna, the Holiday Inn-Mitte in Berlin, the Reiter Braeu in Wartenberg, the Alte Post in Oberammergau and the Ibis Hotel in Heidelberg. Most of our hotels were four-star hotels.

Where to eat: We had breakfast and dinner daily in the hotels; lunch was on our own.

Side trips: None -- we stuck to the itinerary, but missed Worms because of a traffic jam.

Travel tips: Pay attention to all the tips given out by the tour company or the tour leader. This group paid close attention; therefore, there were no major problems.


TOPICS: Apologetics; History; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: germany; lutherans; roots

1 posted on 11/03/2007 10:38:42 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy
the home of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the Lutheran minister, who during World War II was a central figure in the Protestant church's struggle against Nazism

A bit misleading, as the vast majority of German Protestants supported Hitler, but then I guess if Pope Pius XII can be falsely accused of being "Hitler's Pope", I guess any sort of distortion of the truth is acceptable nowadays.

2 posted on 11/03/2007 1:51:18 PM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: Unam Sanctam

Supported Hitler? Heck, some German Protestants signed on to the Nazi Protestant Church: http://wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/caseforgermany/cfg14.html

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1975382,00.html

Strange that we never hear about that isn’t it?

http://zadokromanus.blogspot.com/2007/10/nazi-church-for-sale.html


3 posted on 11/03/2007 2:43:13 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998; Unam Sanctam
Supported Hitler? Heck, some German Protestants signed on to the Nazi Protestant Church:

And some Orthodox priests in Russia worked for the KGB, turning in other priests who ended up in concentrations camps where they were either worked to death or executed. The communists exterminated at least 30,000,000 people. One wonders why communism was so successful in an Orthodox country. Is there something inherently collectivist and dictatorial about Orthodoxy?

4 posted on 11/03/2007 4:17:05 PM PDT by stripes1776
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To: stripes1776

I think there’s a difference, however. The Russian Orthodox Church was anti-Bolshevist even if some priests and bishops co-operated with them out of fear. The German Protestants I’m talking about actually AGREED with Hitler and WANTED to serve Nazism.


5 posted on 11/03/2007 4:29:35 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998
I think there’s a difference, however. The Russian Orthodox Church was anti-Bolshevist even if some priests and bishops co-operated with them out of fear. The German Protestants I’m talking about actually AGREED with Hitler and WANTED to serve Nazism.

It is one thing to be patriotic. Quite another to seek the extermination of people. You want to use the exceptions to condemn the whole. That is the fallacy of emphasis--emphasising a small part and ignoring the rest. You haven't mentioned anything about those Lutherans who were very much opposed to Hitler. Some of them ended up executed by the state.

We in America take democratic institutions for granted. But those institutions were only beginning in Germany after WWI. The roots were not very deep. And the Nazis easily ripped them out of the ground.

Russia has no history of democratic institutions. There was an attempt after the collapse of the Soviet Union to establish those institutions. But the jury is still out. Will Russia go back to its long history of autocratic rule and dictatorship? I think it is too early to say.

6 posted on 11/03/2007 5:01:31 PM PDT by stripes1776
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To: stripes1776

You wrote:

“You want to use the exceptions to condemn the whole.”

Clearly not. I said “some”. If you’re going to attack what I said, then at least get what I said right. Thanks.

“That is the fallacy of emphasis—emphasising a small part and ignoring the rest.”

“some” Did you see the “some”?

“You haven’t mentioned anything about those Lutherans who were very much opposed to Hitler.”

“some” Did you see the “some”?

“Some of them ended up executed by the state.”

Now you’re using “Some”? Okay, so why didn’t you see it when I used it?


7 posted on 11/03/2007 7:00:33 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Alex Murphy

“In spring 2005, the Rev. Carol Solovitz, pastor of Zumbro Lutheran”

Must be ELCA Lutherans. You won’t find woman pastors in the conservative LCMS(Missouri Synod) or the WELS(Wisc. Synod)


8 posted on 11/03/2007 7:14:21 PM PDT by upsdriver (DUNCAN HUNTER FOR PRESIDENT!!!! The steakiest steak in the race!!)
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To: vladimir998
Now you’re using “Some”? Okay, so why didn’t you see it when I used it?

Because I assumed that the goal of your argument was really to malign all Lutherans, despite the use of "some". In other words: see, because some did this, the whole thing is bad. Isn't that the usual focus of your arguments?

Your arguments don't seem to have any appreciation of Protestantism, and yet those arguments take place in a context of religious toleration established by American Protestants. I really don't see any record of toleration like this in the Orthodox world, despite my appreciation of much of Orthodox theology.

9 posted on 11/03/2007 7:15:22 PM PDT by stripes1776
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To: stripes1776

You wrote:

“Because I assumed that the goal of your argument was really to malign all Lutherans...”

Where did I even mention Lutherans? You are imagining quite a bit here.

“In other words: see, because some did this, the whole thing is bad. Isn’t that the usual focus of your arguments?”

No. Again, you are imagining quite a bit here.

“Your arguments don’t seem to have any appreciation of Protestantism, and yet those arguments take place in a context of religious toleration established by American Protestants.”

I have no idea of what you are talking about. What does any of that have to do with “German Christians” idolizing Hitler? Nothing.

“I really don’t see any record of toleration like this in the Orthodox world, despite my appreciation of much of Orthodox theology.”

Again, what does any of that have to do with “German Christians” and their idolizing of Hitler?


10 posted on 11/03/2007 8:01:39 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998
Again, what does any of that have to do with “German Christians” and their idolizing of Hitler?

Again, you are trying to paint a picture of Protestants "idolizing Hitler." What about the Orthodox Christians idolozing Joseph Stalin, the former Orthodox seminary student? Stalin killed millions more than Hitler, and yet you give Orthodox Christians a clean slate.

Nazism wasn't a Christian movement. The swastika is an ancient symbol in religions such as Hinduism. You are simply attempting to condemn Western Christians. It was Western Christian nations like Great Britain and the United States that defeated Nazism.

The Orthodox East, particularly Holy Russia, is full of atrocities. Holy Russian was not Holy.

11 posted on 11/03/2007 8:11:50 PM PDT by stripes1776
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To: vladimir998
Again, what does any of that have to do with “German Christians” and their idolizing of Hitler?

The article you posted to was about Martin Luther. What in the name any any reasoned argument does that have to Nazism? The only reason you posted a comment totally irrelevant to the article is to malign Lutherans.

12 posted on 11/03/2007 8:19:05 PM PDT by stripes1776
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To: stripes1776

You wrote:

“Again, you are trying to paint a picture of Protestants “idolizing Hitler.””

Incorrect. Only “German Christians”.

“What about the Orthodox Christians idolozing Joseph Stalin, the former Orthodox seminary student?”

The Orthodox didn’t idolize him.

“Stalin killed millions more than Hitler, and yet you give Orthodox Christians a clean slate.”

“German Christians” freely chose to idolize Hitler. The Orthodox did not idolize Stalin.

“Nazism wasn’t a Christian movement. The swastika is an ancient symbol in religions such as Hinduism. You are simply attempting to condemn Western Christians. It was Western Christian nations like Great Britain and the United States that defeated Nazism.”

You are imagining quite a bit here. I never condemned Western Christians. I am a Western Christian, after all.

“The Orthodox East, particularly Holy Russia, is full of atrocities. Holy Russian was not Holy.”

What has any of that got to do with “German Christians”?


13 posted on 11/03/2007 8:55:37 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: stripes1776; kawaii

You wrote:

“The article you posted to was about Martin Luther.”

Nope. It was about the relationship between the Nazis and “German Christians”. Luther was barely mentioned in the article.

“What in the name any any reasoned argument does that have to Nazism?”

Quite a bit actually. He was held up as a model for “German Christians” because of his German nationalism and anti-semitic writings.

“The only reason you posted a comment totally irrelevant to the article is to malign Lutherans.”

I never even mentioned Lutherans.


14 posted on 11/03/2007 9:00:41 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Unam Sanctam

Lutherans always have issues with their founder, Martin Luther, who became a violent anti-semite; and with their “German roots,” as the great majority of German Lutherans supported Hitler. Bonhoeffer and others founded the Confessing Church as a protest against the Nazi-Lutheran merger.

I have no prejudice against Lutherans today, but I do question those who market distorted history, such as this tour group.


15 posted on 11/03/2007 11:10:44 PM PDT by iowamark (FDT: Some think the way to beat the Democrats in November is to be more like them.)
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To: vladimir998

Protestantism in Europe has always tried to acccomodate itself to the ruling power.The Catholic Church , on the other hand, is a rival of the state. That does not mean that many Catholics, clergy and laity, do not accommodate the state, but that the official Church tries to retain its independence.


16 posted on 11/03/2007 11:23:35 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS
The Catholic Church , on the other hand, is a rival of the state.

Which is nonsense. You just have to look at Spain under Franco to realize the fallacy of your statement.
17 posted on 11/04/2007 3:30:40 AM PST by wolf78 (If the Founding Fathers were alive today they'd vote for Ron Paul!)
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To: wolf78

You wrote:

“Which is nonsense. You just have to look at Spain under Franco to realize the fallacy of your statement.”

No, all you have to do is look at Spain BEFORE and AFTER Franco to realize the statement is true. Franco was an aberration in modern Europe. His alliance with the Church was not just because of his own Catholicism, but because of the obviious convenience - 3,000 Catholic bishops, priests and nuns were murdered by the communists fighting Franco. OF COURSE THE CHURCH SUPPORTED FRANCO IN RESPONSE TO THAT.


18 posted on 11/04/2007 5:10:41 AM PST by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: wolf78; RobbyS

Sorry, RobbyS, I should have pinged you to for the above. My bad!


19 posted on 11/04/2007 5:13:11 AM PST by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: wolf78

Funny you should mention Franco. Under his concordant with the Vatican, the Church recovered a large share of the liberties that had been taken away since the French Revolution, including a leading role in education. In anticlerical states, religion is banished from public education. The socialists are now engaged in an effort to take back privileges and to secularize all aspects of society.


20 posted on 11/04/2007 1:55:06 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Alex Murphy
Interesting story that has almost nothing to do with anything. I'm German on my mother's side. My recently deceased grandmother, as much as she didn't really live the Catholic life, loved to talk to me in her later years about Germany and Catholicism, being that I had learned German in school and was such an outspoken Catholic around the house.

Her father was a Lutheran, her mother a Catholic. She told me how much he wished he could convert to Catholicism. He did apparently, later in his life when he was ill. She never explained what the hold up was, but I guess it was probably family pressures.

I always wished she opened up about her life in Germany, as she had such interesting things to tell, living through the bombing campaigns during WW2, seeing Hitler at a parade, and some of the darker stuff like how the Nazis requisitioned her father's favorite German Shepherds, having the crosses in her school taken down with portraits of Hitler being put up in her place, Jewish neighbors disappearing, one of her brothers dying in combat, her sister being a Communist and always being taken to the Burgermeister and reprimanded, half her family living behind the Wall in East Germany (I loved when they finally visited us and we took them to the WTC, the Bronx Zoo, West Point, the Empire State Building, my cousin going to bars with us, getting a kick out of riding in my other cousin's Trans-Am), raising her 5 kids alone in NY while learning English. Interestingly, I recently found out my grandfather was and is a German Jew.

That's my little non sequitir.
21 posted on 11/04/2007 3:01:45 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: RobbyS; vladimir998

I’m not denying any of that. However, one shouldn’t over-generalize when making statements like “THE protestants do this and THE catholics do that”. As my statement above is factually correct, I made my point.


22 posted on 11/04/2007 3:26:19 PM PST by wolf78 (If the Founding Fathers were alive today they'd vote for Ron Paul!)
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To: Alex Murphy

When I hear ‘study German roots’ I think of Husserl, Hegel, and especially the firebrand Heidegger who traced etymology of German words for the presently hidden original meaning.


23 posted on 11/04/2007 3:28:23 PM PST by RightWhale (anti-razors are pro-life)
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To: Conservative til I die

Slice of life. Thanks for sharing it.


24 posted on 11/04/2007 3:37:35 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: wolf78

I was referring only to the “confessionaL” Protestants whose churches are entirely state supported. The anabaptists have always been separatists, in that they denied the right of the state to control their doctrine and worship. Like the Mennonites who began in Switzerland and were driven from pilar to post until many escaped to America. There were also the separatists like the “Pilgrims” who fled England for Holland and then, to allowe their children to stay English, immigrated to America. Such sects were as badly treated as Catholics were by Elizabeth’s government. One difference is that Catholics, like Jews and unlike the Protestant sects, have an international character and connection. All protestants, from day one, are nationist in orientation. The great exception among the Reformers, was Calvin, who wished to reform the whole Catholic Church along different theological lines. Luther was nothing but German; Calvin was never just French. While he was alive, Geneva was the Protestant Rome.


25 posted on 11/04/2007 3:48:40 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: vladimir998
Nope. It was about the relationship between the Nazis and “German Christians”. Luther was barely mentioned in the article.

As I said, the article you "posted to" is "Lutherans study German roots". Martin Luther is mentioned quite a bit. Maybe you should read it again.

26 posted on 11/04/2007 4:08:45 PM PST by stripes1776
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To: stripes1776

Sorry, when you said posted, I thought you mean the articles I linked to.

Sorry, about that.


27 posted on 11/04/2007 5:52:29 PM PST by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: stripes1776
Again, you are trying to paint a picture of Protestants "idolizing Hitler." What about the Orthodox Christians idolozing Joseph Stalin, the former Orthodox seminary student? Stalin killed millions more than Hitler, and yet you give Orthodox Christians a clean slate

There are no Orthodox who idolize Stalin and it's clear that with 66 million in casualties the folks managing the killing hated Christians you might endeavor to check out who they were.
28 posted on 11/04/2007 6:45:15 PM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: stripes1776
And some Orthodox priests in Russia worked for the KGB, turning in other priests who ended up in concentrations camps where they were either worked to death or executed. The communists exterminated at least 30,000,000 people. One wonders why communism was so successful in an Orthodox country. Is there something inherently collectivist and dictatorial about Orthodoxy?

Because it was foreign funded, and given foreign technology. It's leadership was always foreign with the occasional token Russian.
29 posted on 11/04/2007 6:53:29 PM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; FormerLib

ping


30 posted on 11/04/2007 6:54:12 PM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii
This is a thread about Lutherans going back to Germany during the 400th year of Martin Luther posting his theses. But what do we get immediately? Some one posting about German Christians being Nazis. The object was to malign Lutherans.

If anybody wants to play that game, I am quite willing to slam the ball in the other direction. But I think it would be better to focus on the content of the article. I don't think one has to be Lutheran to appreciate them studing the origins of Luther's reformation.

31 posted on 11/04/2007 7:18:14 PM PST by stripes1776
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To: stripes1776; kawaii
What is it about certain sects that harbor such a vile hatred for Orthodoxy? That’s the more important question raised by your post.

Some 30,000 Russian Orthodox Clergy were murder by the Communists.

Can you name any other Christian faith that was targeted to that degree by the Communists?

32 posted on 11/04/2007 8:24:57 PM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: stripes1776
And vladmir988 is Eastern Rite Catholic so you wasted your time if you thought you were trolling him by slandering the Orthodox martyrs of Communism.
33 posted on 11/04/2007 8:26:41 PM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: stripes1776
If anybody wants to play that game, I am quite willing to slam the ball in the other direction.

Great, you take offense to a Roman Catholic's posting by insulting Eastern Orthodoxy. Take some time to wipe the egg off your face.

34 posted on 11/04/2007 8:28:22 PM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: Conservative til I die
D.J.: I just had some questions about God and stuff.
Roseanne: Well why didn't you come to us if you had questions? There are no two better people to answer your questions than me and your dad.
D.J.: Okay... what religion are we?
Roseanne: I have no idea... Dan?
Dan: Well... my mom's mom was Pentecostal and Baptist on the side of my dad. Your mom's mom was Lutheran and her dad was Jewish.
D.J.: So what do we believe?
Roseanne: Well... we believe in... being good. So basically, we're good people.
Dan: Yeah, but we're not practicing.

Roseanne, sixth season episode "I Pray The Lord My Stove To Keep"

35 posted on 11/04/2007 8:28:28 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("Therefore the prudent keep silent at that time, for it is an evil time." - Amos 5:13)
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To: Unam Sanctam

As did the majority of Catholics in Austria and Germany (and Hitler was arguably more popular in the former than the latter). Your point?


36 posted on 11/04/2007 8:36:56 PM PST by Clemenza (Rudy Giuliani, like Pesto and Seattle, belongs in the scrap heap of '90s Culture)
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To: kawaii
Yes, it was the JOOOOOOS, not the RUSSIANS themselves.

If I hear the "Russian were victims" fairytale one more time, I will vomit. Most of the "ethnics" were purged along with Trotsky. During Stalin's reign, but especially after his death, Comintern was RUSSIAN dominated.

37 posted on 11/04/2007 8:39:07 PM PST by Clemenza (Rudy Giuliani, like Pesto and Seattle, belongs in the scrap heap of '90s Culture)
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To: Clemenza

(wild eyed conspiracy theories aside) do you have information backing up that this was somehow a Russian led revolution?

btw stalin died in 1953; 36 years after the october ‘revolution’.


38 posted on 11/05/2007 6:54:00 AM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: FormerLib
Great, you take offense to a Roman Catholic's posting by insulting Eastern Orthodoxy. Take some time to wipe the egg off your face.

I assumed the poster was Orthodox. But then neither am I Lutheran. I could just as easily have brought out insulting remarks about the Roman church or any other denomination.

This article for this thread is about Lutherans going back to the roots of their faith. The poster immediately wanted to malign Lutherans by making a link between German Christians and Nazism. My purpose was to use fallacies so that the poster would come to see his fallacies. He has stopped using fallasies, and therefore my method comes to an end as well.

If there had been an article about Orthodox making some trip to a monastery in Russia or Serbia, and somebody immediately make a connection between the Orthodox church and Communism, I would have used the same type of fallacies for some other denomination. If you were offended, then you had the correct response. Fallacies are not very convincing in arguments. That is my point.

39 posted on 11/05/2007 2:01:08 PM PST by stripes1776
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