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His Open Arms Welcomed Me
Star of the Sea ^ | 1994 | Paul Thigpen

Posted on 11/03/2007 5:03:12 PM PDT by annalex

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To: annalex; Cvengr; ears_to_hear; wmfights; Campion
FK: "... then for you, charity is more important than faith."

Cuz the Bible tells me so :)

That surprises me. I thought that in Catholic thought salvation was rare outside of the Apostolic Church. If so, and knowing how many rules and regulations there are, that would appear to be a fairly substantial amount of faith required to be saved. Yet, you are telling me that works of love are more important than faith. Therefore, with all of my heretical views, if I did as many good works of love as the next good Catholic, would your guess be that I was "safe"?

81 posted on 11/14/2007 4:21:42 AM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; Campion
could mean either "You were saved" OR "You are being saved now", depending on the context.

"You were saved" would be more clearly expressed with past tense. St. Paul chose the present tense.

faith, executed through saving grace, is what saves alone. [... next post] Eph. 2 which PLAINLY discredits any idea that works play a significant part of salvation

What is says clearly that grace saves alone, and that works whose source is man himself do not save. It does not say that faith saves alone or that works generally are insignificant; if it did we would have a contradiction with James 2, and the primacy of love proclaimed by Paul.

82 posted on 11/14/2007 1:31:15 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea-Luke17.php)
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To: Forest Keeper; Cvengr; ears_to_hear; wmfights; Campion
if I did as many good works of love as the next good Catholic, would your guess be that I was "safe"?

Among theses works of love surely a ardent desire to join the Catholic Church, and once joined, vibrant life of liturgical Catholic Faith would occur, so yes.

83 posted on 11/14/2007 1:34:10 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea-Luke17.php)
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To: annalex

I rejoice with the angels at this man’s salvation. (All heaven rejoices over a person who turns to Christ, no matter what church they do it in, or even if they don’t do it in a church.)


84 posted on 11/14/2007 1:55:47 PM PST by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: annalex; Campion
Alex quoting FK: "faith, executed through saving grace, is what saves alone. [... next post] Eph. 2 which PLAINLY discredits any idea that works play a significant part of salvation"

What is says clearly that grace saves alone, and that works whose source is man himself do not save. It does not say that faith saves alone or that works generally are insignificant; if it did we would have a contradiction with James 2, and the primacy of love proclaimed by Paul.

Regarding the two snippets, I also said it was a package deal. Therefore, it is perfectly correct to say that faith alone saves (point of belief), AND perseverance is necessary for salvation (entry into Heaven). God's guarantee means that no one has true faith without works. They are inseparable. If one has faith then he will do works. If one does works that are good in God's eyes, then he has faith.

Paul says that grace saves alone through faith alone. Saving grace ALWAYS activates true faith. I agree with you that works born in flesh are useless. Works are not insignificant, they are just not salvific independently because they are built into faith. Works are a part of God's plan for us (Eph. 2:10) so they are very important. There is no contradiction with James 2, since James was not talking about earning our way into Heaven. James focused on the fruits of salvation, noting that if there are no fruits, there is no faith. This is true. He and Paul were coming at the same thing from different directions, but they were in total agreement with each other.

85 posted on 11/15/2007 2:02:56 AM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: annalex
Among theses works of love surely an ardent desire to join the Catholic Church, and once joined, vibrant life of liturgical Catholic Faith would occur, so yes.

I see. :)

86 posted on 11/15/2007 2:10:01 AM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper
Paul says that grace saves alone through faith alone. Saving grace ALWAYS activates true faith. I agree with you that works born in flesh are useless. Works are not insignificant, they are just not salvific independently because they are built into faith.

He doesn't say or mean "faith alone". On the rest, I agree, and that is the Catholic teaching: that good works moved by grace produce faith and likewise faith produces works, so faith and works are unseparable.

87 posted on 11/15/2007 1:19:53 PM PST by annalex (http://www.diafrica.org/kenny/CDtexts/CALuke.htm#17)
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