Posted on 11/09/2007 1:55:47 PM PST by NYer
To their own demise.
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and unto the day of eternity. Amen." 2 Peter 3:16-18
Rather difficult to talk about someone behind their back in an open forum.
You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest someone have their popes, cardinals and bishops do your thinking for you with your soul on the line. I say to you no thanks.
And the earth was of one tongue, and of the same speech. And when they removed from the east, they found a plain in the land of Sennaar, and dwelt in it. And each one said to his neighbour: Come, let us make brick, and bake them with fire. And they had brick instead of stones, and slime instead of mortar. And they said: Come, let us make a city and a tower, the top whereof may reach to heaven: and let us make our name famous before we be scattered abroad into all lands. And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of Adam were building.
And he said: Behold, it is one people, and all have one tongue: and they have begun to do this, neither will they leave off from their designs, till they accomplish them in deed. Come ye, therefore, let us go down, and there confound their tongue, that they may not understand one another's speech. And so the Lord scattered them from that place into all lands, and they ceased to build the city. And therefore the name thereof was called Babel, ("Babel"... That is, confusion.) because there the language of the whole earth was confounded: and from thence the Lord scattered them abroad upon the face of all countries. Genesis 11:1-9
It is poor form to attempt to do so. AM would have to read every posting and that is quite the burden you would load your fellow man up with when common courtesy would alleviate this. He has made his wishes known in the matter but you are led by ????
But to whom will you pray? Some saint or priest or dead pope?
I pray to God, in the Name of Jesus, through the Holy Spirit for all who believe that there is any way to salvation other than through Jesus Christ alone.
In Christ
Oh my... this again?
Next time someone asks you to pray for them, tell them you can’t because apparently there are no intercessors according to this viewpoint.
Catholics do not pray TO saints they ask them to pray for us...just like people ask you to pray for them. We believe in the “communion of all holy people”, whether dead or alive.
“...pray for me to the Lord our God”
I ask for LIVE people to pray for me, not DEAD people.
Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such a high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Surely you're not saying that your priest are on the same order as Jesus, our High Priest are you?
Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Oh my... this again?
I didn't ask to be in this post, NYer pinged me so you can thank him/her.
Excellent Summary.
As you already know, I was asked to direct the Religious Education program at our parish this year. Because of this ....
How I led Catholics Out of the Church
I have placed great emphasis on learning the roots of our faith, traveling back 4000 years to the Covenant made by God with Abraham up to the present, while focusing on Scripture in our classes. It's a struggle for the older kids but I am relentless in the pursuit of them reading the Bible.
Bob, I apologize for any misunderstanding you may have drawn from that simple question. It was sincere and I believe you are also sincere in your faith. That said, and looking at your response, I would appreciate your honest response to this. There is indeed only One Holy Spirit, the third person of the Holy Trinity. As christians we believe there are 3 persons in one God, correct? Do we agree that God is perfect?
"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." -
Revelations 5:8
"The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, [Cf. Heb 12:1 .] especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were 'put in charge of many things.' [Cf. Mt 25:21.] Their intercession is their most exalted service to God's plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world."
Catechism of the Catholic Church 2683
People ask people to "pray for me" all the time. Why not ask the Virgin Mary or any other saint to "pray for you?" Just because they are no longer "of this world" does not mean they don't "talk" to God. The saints in heaven are not "separated" by death from the community of the Church (Romans 8:38-39) as we are all one Body in Christ (Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 12:12) and Christ "abolished death" (2 Timothy 1:10 ). Therefore, the saints in Heaven can pray for us just as anyone here on Earth can. In fact, better, as they are presently in His Presence. The Virgin Mary asking God to help you should "carry more weight" so to speak than having your best friend on this earth praying for you. In fact, Christ's first public miracle was performed upon the "intercession" of His own mother (John 2:2-11).
The following is a prayer to St. Joseph that dates back to 50 A.D. - long before the last Apostle had died and less than 20 years after the death of Christ. If the early Christians asked the "dead" foster father of Christ to intercede for them and it was "wrong," why is there no "documentation" from the Twelve Apostles "reprimanding" them for this? Surely, the Apostles would have corrected the early Church had It been in err?
O St. Joseph whose protection is so great, so strong, so prompt before the Throne of God, I place in you all my interests and desires.O St. Joseph do assist me by your powerful intercession and obtain for me from your Divine Son all spiritual blessings through Jesus Christ, Our Lord; so that having engaged here below your Heavenly power I may offer my Thanksgiving and Homage to the most Loving of Fathers.
O St. Joseph I never weary contemplating you and Jesus asleep in your arms. I dare not approach while He reposes near your heart. Press him in my name and kiss His fine Head for me, and ask Him to return the Kiss when I draw my dying breath.
St. Joseph, Patron of departing souls, pray for us. Amen.
So, you are saying there can be only one interpretation of Scripture?
Yes to a trinity Godhead. Each having a different task but with the same purpose and goal. God is indeed perfect. Man is not.
Deuteronomy 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
God is not sitting in heaven surrounded by DEAD people.
Matthew 22:31: ... have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
That's good. Please don't engage in any of the listed activities, and we promise we won't either. All of them are explicitly condemned by our faith anyway.
You pray to your dead people and I'll pray to my risen Jesus.
I'm sure that none of your priest ever engage in activities of question, now do they?
Salvation is simple. Acknowledge and repent of your sins, ask Jesus to forgive you of those sins, then accept that His substitutionary sacrifice made for you and me on the cross alone is sufficient for the atonement of our sins. You don't need to pray to a priest, or a dead sinner, or anybody else except to God, through the Holy Spirit, in the name of Jesus. Nor do you need to sprinkle babies, or whisper to other sinner through darkened screen partition. Jesus in the only intercessor necessary.
I encourage my students to read the Bible, and tell them their parents have to get them a version that they can read easily. Boys can really get interested in Samuel and Kings!
WileyPink, where have you been? This is not gang nor an attack. Believe me when when I say from experience that in more controversial topics that when they ping their "super" list and they come out of the woodwork from every direction attacking everything you have said , THEN you can say you have been assailed. No, this has been mild, civil and completely expected. They are well read but . . . firm in their teachings.
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