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Unlocking the Convert's Heart
Catholic Education ^ | November 2007 | Marcus Grodi

Posted on 11/09/2007 1:55:47 PM PST by NYer

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To: NYer
In the year 135 Jerusalem was sacked and the Roman emperor Hadrian prohibited Sabbath worship throughout the Roman Empire. Hadrian also prohibited anyone of Jewish descent from living in Jerusalem. A new Christian community was recruited for Jerusalem from other nations, and the bishops of Jerusalem until the mid–third century bore Greek and Roman names. Thus, after 135, even the Jerusalem Church worshiped on Sundays. Hadrian’s prohibition against Sabbath worship spelled the end of the Sabbath-or-Sunday problem for the early Church. Another council was not necessary.

To follow Gods commandments or Caesars Hadrians. I hope that's not a difficult choice.

101 posted on 11/13/2007 3:37:59 PM PST by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire, but I swear I didn't see it in my rear view mirror.)
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To: DouglasKC; NYer; BipolarBob; ears_to_hear; PAR35; Ping-Pong
Diego has throughly hashed this out from a scriptural standpoint a number of times in this forum. Perhaps he still has a link to one of his posts?

Aw....let's just make a new one.....LOL! It's one of my favorite subjects.....and so misunderstood by the Main Stream Church....I can always make time for this!

NYer:"Can you still answer this question. "In various passages of Scripture, the Lord restates all of the Decalogue except for one commandment. Which commandment did he not restate?"

One of the first things I came to realize in my walk with God is that the New does not cancel the Old. Jesus did not walk around telling everyone He was not killing anybody. He did not call to anyone's attention He was not stealing anything. He did not have to remind folks He was not fooling around with someone else's wife......they could all see these things to be self evident. They could also see Him honoring the Sabbath weekly.

Our Lord was the spokesman of the Old Testament [John 1:1]. 3056. logos (log'-os)something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ): And [John 1:14: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

The Sabbaths commands are repeated numerous times in the Old Testament (Christ is the Spokesman)....never repealed in the New. The fact that Our Lord does not mention the Sabbath command in the New does not detract from the fact He continues to Observe it weekly. If His teaching had included a discontinuance of the Sabbath observance don't you think the women would have known about it here [Luke 24:56]? And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

NYer: The Gospels report that Jesus observed the Sabbath, there are even several incidents where he is accused of violating Sabbath law (Jn. 9:16, Jn 7:23, Mk. 3:4)

All of these instances were thought to be Sabbath breaking by the Pharisees. In fact....what they were was...breaking of "Talmudic" Jewish Law. Douglas pointed this out quite succinctly.

As I touched on briefly in post #83 was the misunderstanding of the Hebrew term "First of the Sabbaths." Let me go into it a little deeper here and folks may begin to understand why this cannot possibly be translated "first day of the week." The word for the seven weekly Sabbaths between Passover and Pentecost [Leviticus 23:15-16] is Shabbaton (A Special Sabbath) which is a Hebrew word. The Greeks had no word for Sabbath....not surprising! Consequently they (New Testament Writers) used this spelling....in Greek to denote the specific Sabbath of the resurrection (Sabbatwn). Every time you see this spelling in the Greek it means the first Saturday after Passover. The first Saturday after Passover was indeed the first Saturday of the seven Saturday count to Pentecost and that is why the literal translation of the Greek is "First of the Sabbaths."

Young's Literal Translation: [Matthew 28:1] And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.

[Luke 24:1] And on the first of the sabbaths, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bearing the spices they made ready, and certain [others] with them.

[John 20:1] And on the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene doth come early (there being yet darkness) to the tomb, and she seeth the stone having been taken away out of the tomb.

To a first century Jew living in Judea this terminology meant......the first Sabbath (weekly) in the seven Sabbath count to Pentecost.

Look at this! [Luke 6:1] And it came to pass, on the second-first sabbath, as he is going through the corn fields, that his disciples were plucking the ears, and were eating, rubbing with the hands. Jesus here....is traveling on the second Sabbath (Same word "Sabbatwn") between Passover and Pentecost. Anytime there was a special Sabbath....this word was used.

When early heresies (Sunday resurrection) crept into the Church they embedded themselves because many converts were recently from Paganism and Sun Worship was the main theme of this form of idolatry. It was natural for folks to want to continue doing what they had been doing and the Church saw the advantage in allowing this to happen! More converts!

102 posted on 11/13/2007 3:39:30 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: Diego1618
The term used in scripture is "First of the Sabbaths". The Greek word is Sabbaton and is only used in scripture to denote these special seven Sabbaths between Passover and Pentecost.

Is that from the Gospel according to Jay Green?

Let's make it simple. I don't accept your definitions. I'll stick with the accepted scholarship.

103 posted on 11/13/2007 4:09:37 PM PST by PAR35
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To: BipolarBob
To follow Gods commandments or Caesars Hadrians. I hope that's not a difficult choice.

From a long distance, Bob, relaxing before the computer in your home in the year 2007, that is a painless comment to make. We were not alive then and can only begin to imagine the suffering of the Jews and first Christians. when that edict was issued. They did not cave, as we know from the testimonies of the first martyrs.

For Trajan, in the ninth year of his reign, being lifted up [with pride], after the victory he had gained over the Scythians and Dacians, and many other nations, and thinking that the religious body of the Christians were yet wanting to complete the subjugation of all things to himself, and [thereupon] threatening them with persecution unless they should agree to worship dæmons, as did all other nations, thus compelled all who were living godly lives either to sacrifice [to idols] or die. Wherefore the noble soldier of Christ [Ignatius], being in fear for the Church of the Antiochians, was, in accordance with his own desire, brought before Trajan, who was at that time staying at Antioch, but was in haste [to set forth] against Armenia and the Parthians. And when he was set before the Emperor Trajan, [that prince] said unto him, "Who are you, wicked wretch, who settest yourself to transgress our commands, and persuadest others to do the same, so that they should miserably perish?" Ignatius replied, "No one ought to call Theophorus wicked; for all evil spirits have departed from the servants of God. But if, because I am an enemy to these [spirits], you call me wicked in respect to them, I quite agree with you; for inasmuch as I have Christ the King of heaven [within me], I destroy all the devices of these [evil spirits]." Trajan answered, "And who is Theophorus?" Ignatius replied, "He who has Christ within his breast." Trajan said, "Do we not then seem to you to have the gods in our mind, whose assistance we enjoy in fighting against our enemies?" Ignatius answered, "You are in error when you call the dæmons of the nations gods. For there is but one God, who made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that are in them; and one Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, whose kingdom may I enjoy." Trajan said, "Do you mean Him who was crucified under Pontius Pilate?" Ignatius replied, "I mean Him who crucified my sin, with him who was the inventor of it, and who has condemned [and cast down] all the deceit and malice of the devil under the feet of those who carry Him in their heart." Trajan said, "Do you then carry within you Him that was crucified?" Ignatius replied, "Truly so; for it is written, 'I will dwell in them, and walk in them.' " 2 Corinthians 6:16 Then Trajan pronounced sentence as follows: "We command that Ignatius, who affirms that he carries about within him Him that was crucified, be bound by soldiers, and carried to the great [city] Rome, there to be devoured by the beasts, for the gratification of the people." When the holy martyr heard this sentence, he cried out with joy, "I thank you, O Lord, that You have vouchsafed to honour me with a perfect love towards You, and hast made me to be bound with iron chains, like Your Apostle Paul." Having spoken thus, he then, with delight, clasped the chains about him; and when he had first prayed for the Church, and commended it with tears to the Lord, he was hurried away by the savage cruelty of the soldiers, like a distinguished ram the leader of a goodly flock, that he might be carried to Rome, there to furnish food to the bloodthirsty beasts.

(Emphasis mine)

But Ignatius was gratified at this sentence and used the time needed to travel as a prisoner, from Antioch to Rome, to inspire the bishops of the Churches he passed along the way. After a great deal of suffering he came to Smyrna, where he disembarked with great joy, and hastened to see the holy Polycarp, [formerly] his fellow-disciple, and [now] bishop of Smyrna. For they had both, in old times, been disciples of St. John the Apostle. Being then brought to him, and having communicated to him some spiritual gifts, and glorying in his bonds, he entreated of him to labour along with him for the fulfilment of his desire; earnestly indeed asking this of the whole Church (for the cities and Churches of Asia had welcomed the holy man through their bishops, and presbyters, and deacons, all hastening to meet him, if by any means they might receive from him some spiritual gift), but above all, the holy Polycarp, that, by means of the wild beasts, he soon disappearing from this world, might be manifested before the face of Christ.

Having therefore, by means of this Epistle, settled, as he wished, those of the brethren at Rome who were unwilling [for his martyrdom]; and setting sail from Smyrna (for Christophorus was pressed by the soldiers to hasten to the public spectacles in the mighty [city] Rome, that, being given up to the wild beasts in the sight of the Roman people, he might attain to the crown for which he strove), he [next] landed at Troas. Then, going on from that place to Neapolis, he went [on foot] by Philippi through Macedonia, and on to that part of Epirus which is near Epidamnus; and finding a ship in one of the seaports, he sailed over the Adriatic Sea, and entering from it on the Tyrrhene, he passed by the various islands and cities, until, when Puteoli came in sight, he was eager there to disembark, having a desire to tread in the footsteps of the Apostle Paul. Acts 28:13-14 But a violent wind arising did not allow him to do so, the ship being driven rapidly forwards; and, simply expressing his delight over the love of the brethren in that place, he sailed by. Wherefore, continuing to enjoy fair winds, we were reluctantly hurried on in one day and a night, mourning [as we did] over the coming departure from us of this righteous man. But to him this happened just as he wished, since he was in haste as soon as possible to leave this world, that he might attain to the Lord whom he loved. Sailing then into the Roman harbour, and the unhallowed sports being just about to close, the soldiers began to be annoyed at our slowness, but the bishop rejoicingly yielded to their urgency. They pushed forth therefore from the place which is called Portus; and (the fame of all relating to the holy martyr being already spread abroad) we met the brethren full of fear and joy; rejoicing indeed because they were thought worthy to meet with Theophorus, but struck with fear because so eminent a man was being led to death. Now he enjoined some to keep silence who, in their fervent zeal, were saying that they would appease the people, so that they should not demand the destruction of this just one. He being immediately aware of this through the Spirit, and having saluted them all, and begged of them to show a true affection towards him, and having dwelt [on this point] at greater length than in his Epistle, and having persuaded them not to envy him hastening to the Lord, he then, after he had, with all the brethren kneeling [beside him], entreated the Son of God in behalf of the Churches, that a stop might be put to the persecution, and that mutual love might continue among the brethren, was led with all haste into the amphitheatre. Then, being immediately thrown in, according to the command of Cæsar given some time ago, the public spectacles being just about to close (for it was then a solemn day, as they deemed it, being that which is called the thirteenth in the Roman tongue, on which the people were wont to assemble in more than ordinary numbers), he was thus cast to the wild beasts close beside the temple, that so by them the desire of the holy martyr Ignatius should be fulfilled, according to that which is written, "The desire of the righteous is acceptable Proverbs 10:24 [to God]," to the effect that he might not be troublesome to any of the brethren by the gathering of his remains, even as he had in his Epistle expressed a wish beforehand that so his end might be. For only the harder portions of his holy remains were left, which were conveyed to Antioch and wrapped in linen, as an inestimable treasure left to the holy Church by the grace which was in the martyr.

The Martyrdom of Ignatius


Don't know about you, but I have spent many hours reflecting on the strength of faith of these first Christians who refused to buckle and deny Jesus. These were not disciples of the Lord but the first generation of pagan converts. They sought Truth in a world filled with decipt and lies. They heard the Word spoken by the Apostles and believed - with no pocket sized New Testament for reference. Like Ignatius, some were thrown to the lions at the Coliseum, for entertainment. Ironically, those gathered for "the games" were surprised to witness these Christians enter the Coliseum, singing celebratory hymns. These martyrs included entire families - husbands, wives and their children - fed to the beasts or covered with pitch and turned into living torches to illuminate the stadium.

Such strength of faith in a foreign-born God they never met and only knew through oral Tradition. I often wonder how many 'Christians' today, who have listened to their pastors and priests, would lay down their lives in such a manner.

104 posted on 11/13/2007 4:43:04 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer
From a long distance, Bob, relaxing before the computer in your home in the year 2007, that is a painless comment to make.

I deserved that. I had a rebuke coming and I accept it. I have grown weary of the Sabbath to Sunday debate. There are no magic verses to underscore. John 8:58 shows Jesus in Deity form gave the Ten Commandments. His life exemplified it. We shall celebrate it in heaven. There is nothing more to add to this argument. If you do not wish to go on to other topics, I shall withdraw from this discussion.

105 posted on 11/13/2007 5:07:30 PM PST by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire, but I swear I didn't see it in my rear view mirror.)
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To: PAR35; DouglasKC; NYer; BipolarBob; ears_to_hear; Ping-Pong
Green seems to have misunderstood the Greek prōi (πρωΐ́) which shows it was early in the morning, or at dawn. (The Jewish Holy day ran from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown; so they would be talking about dawn on Sunday there.)

4404. proi (pro-ee')at dawn; by implication, the day-break watch, early (in the morning), (in the) morning. This is translated incorrectly because of theological error and tradition.

Here is the problem. The women come to the tomb late in the afternoon...at sundown...the end of the Sabbath. The fact that we begin our days at mid night leads to the confusion. The best place to see what the time was is in [Luke 23:54] And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. The fact that the Sabbath was beginning indicates that the time of burial is late afternoon/early evening....at sundown. The word in the Greek for "drew on" is "Epiphosko". The meaning is clear. The Sabbath is about to begin and it is sundown. The only other place in scripture this word appears is [Matthew 28:1] where the modern English translations mostly all say: "as it began to dawn towards the first day of the week."

Well.....from my previous post we now all know this is error....tradition, but error. Epiphosko simply means: #2020. epiphosko (ep-ee-foce'-ko)begin to dawn, X draw on. For something to begin....something else has to end. In this case it is the Sabbath that is ending and the New day is about to begin....at sundown. [Matthew 28:6] verifies that He is already risen! The new day is dawning, not sunrise....but sunset. The Hebrews began their days at sunset. Everyone knows this....so Epiphosko in [Matthew 28:1] means the Dawning of the new day the same way it is used in [Luke 23:54].....and the only other place in scripture this word "Epiphosko" is used!

As I said before....the Church had an agenda to show a Sunday morning resurrection and for the last 1700+ years have attempted to do just that. It is not difficult to understand why.

106 posted on 11/13/2007 5:41:58 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: Diego1618
we now all know this is error

No, we don't. I'll be happy to correct you. 'Some folks say it is error to advance their agenda'.

107 posted on 11/13/2007 5:59:07 PM PST by PAR35
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To: Diego1618

I’ll ask you one question, however. Are you Jay Green? Answer by freepmail if you wish.


108 posted on 11/13/2007 6:00:59 PM PST by PAR35
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To: PAR35
Let's make it simple. I don't accept your definitions.

Douay-Rheims: [Matthew 28:1] And in the end of the sabbath, when it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalen and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.

They almost have it right....but nevertheless show this event to be happening on The Sabbath.

Latin Vulgate: [Matthew 28:1] vespere autem sabbati quae lucescit in primam sabbati venit Maria Magdalene et altera Maria videre sepulchrum.

This also says "In the end of the Sabbath"....if you cannot read Latin.

[Matthew 28:1]

The above shows ten accepted translations of the verse in question. Six of them show the visit to the tomb happening on the Sabbath. The other four.....because of bias in their erroneous beliefs....choose to reinterpret scripture to their own agenda.

I'll stick with the accepted scholarship.

Many folks will not accept the truth because of peer pressure and indoctrination from early childhood. Whenever I post these Biblical truths I receive many such replies as yours and can only offer this advice. Think like a Hebrew when reading scripture. After all....it was they who gave us the scriptures....both Old and New!

109 posted on 11/13/2007 6:04:49 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: PAR35
No, we don't. I'll be happy to correct you.

Please do!

110 posted on 11/13/2007 6:14:28 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: PAR35
I’ll ask you one question, however. Are you Jay Green? Answer by freepmail if you wish.

I don't know of anyone by that name. Why would I want to answer you in private? Is this relevant to the subject?

111 posted on 11/13/2007 6:18:49 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: Diego1618; DouglasKC
I don't know of anyone by that name ... Is this relevant to the subject?

DouglasKC was quoting Green's version of the Bible, as well as you, as authorities on these meanings for NT Greek words. So I was wondering if there was a common source in the discussion.

As far as not having heard of him before, that's understandable. I hadn't either until the Modern King James Version started being quoted on this thread.

I was more surprised by DKC's comment, that he hadn't heard of William Miller.

112 posted on 11/13/2007 7:35:44 PM PST by PAR35
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To: PAR35; NYer; BipolarBob; Diego1618
For what it's worth, there's a relatively easy way to determine if "first of the sabbaths" meant literally a sabbath or just the first day of any old "week". Or whether the greek of the new testament was trying to convey "sabbaths" or "weeks".

There is a greek word for "week", but it's not "sabbaton". It's ἕβδομα. This can be easily verified by going to this link and seeing that yes indeed, that's the word.

It's ἕβδομα, not σαββατων.

Now you can verify that greeks surely did know the difference between a "week" and a "sabbath" and used the words differently.

Look at Exodus 34:22:

Exo 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

Note the word "weeks". In hebrew, it means literally "sevens".

Now look at Exodus 20:8:

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

"Sabbath" is literally "intermission", "rest" or THE sabbath in hebrew.

Now it gets interesting. Look at both these verses in the LXX, or Septuagint. The Septuagint is a old greek version of the old testament.

Exodus 34:22 in Septuagint

και εορτην εβδομαδων ποιησεις μοι αρχην θερισμου πυρων και εορτην συναγωγης μεσουντος του ενιαυτου

Note the word in red. It's a form of the greek word found in our translator for "week".

Look at Exodus 20:8 in the Septuagint:

8 μνησθητι την ημεραν των σαββατων αγιαζειν αυτην

Not the same word. But in fact the red word above is the word (or a form of) the word translated variously as "week" or "sabbaths" in the NT, depending on the translator.

Understand? There is clear evidence that there is a greek word for WEEK and SABBATH and they are different. They are used differently in the Septuagint to denote different things.

Yet in the new testament translators insist on translating it as "week" or even Sunday. The reason for this is clear to me. Bias. You of course will have to do the study and be convicted for yourself. I've given you all the links you need to prove it. You just have to put in the time.

113 posted on 11/13/2007 8:11:25 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: PAR35
DouglasKC was quoting Green's version of the Bible, as well as you, as authorities on these meanings for NT Greek words. So I was wondering if there was a common source in the discussion.

I use about 30 different translations in my study as well as multiple concordances, dictionaries and other references. Nearly all of them are electronic. I find literal translations to be generally more accurate when trying to find the sense of the greek or the Hebrew. I prefer the King James or NASB for general studies. I "think" scripture in King James.

The point is that there are dozens and dozens of translations and thousands and thousands of translators. Not all of them are correct. However, God has seen to it that truth and accuracy are still present and will lead us into truth when we study his word:

2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Not that I'm always right, or know everything, but I'm willing to concede a biblical point if it's based in sound analysis of all available scripture.

114 posted on 11/13/2007 8:20:58 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: PAR35
DouglasKC was quoting Green's version of the Bible, as well as you, as authorities on these meanings for NT Greek words.

I cannot speak for Doug....but I have never heard of the gentleman. As far as understanding the Greek.....like I said earlier. If you think like a Hebrew you will generally be able to figure things out.

I'll give you an example. Hell

The word "Gehenna" is translated in the KJV eleven times as Hell. [Matthew 5:22;5:29;10:28;18:9;23:15;23:33] [Mark 9:43;9:45;9:47] [Luke 12:5] and [James 3:6]. I know folks who conjure up visions of eternal fire and damnation when reading these verses. Our Saviour, of course was speaking of that celebrated garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where bodies of indigents and criminals were thrown as a means of disposal.

The Israelites used this same area for pagan rituals including the sacrificing of their own children. The first century Hebrews knew the history of this vile place and when Our Lord spoke of it as an example of "The Lake of Fire", the second death of [Revelation 20:14]....they understood the implications. Today....when you attempt to explain this simple truth to some....they look at you like a deer in the headlights. They have been so brainwashed into believing this to be a place of eternal torture and misery they cannot comprehend the reality.....the second death.

I think the Church has always had an agenda here also.... keeping the folks in line...so to speak. Letting them believe they are going to burn forever.....unless!!!!

115 posted on 11/13/2007 8:31:45 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: Diego1618; DouglasKC

Sorry Doug....meant to ping you to #115.


116 posted on 11/13/2007 8:38:53 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: DouglasKC

Great post Doug. Love your links. Thank you.


117 posted on 11/13/2007 8:43:26 PM PST by Diego1618
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To: BipolarBob
If you do not wish to go on to other topics ..

I am always up to the challenge ;-) It's your call.

118 posted on 11/14/2007 5:53:57 AM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer

Why does your church have a pope? What is his authority? Is apostolic succession Biblical? Again, please use scripture as reference.


119 posted on 11/14/2007 4:19:47 PM PST by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire, but I swear I didn't see it in my rear view mirror.)
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To: BipolarBob
Why does your church have a pope? What is his authority? Is apostolic succession Biblical? Again, please use scripture as reference.

These are important questions, Bob, and I will address each and every one of them. But, due to my hectic schedule, I may not get to them all that quickly. It may take several days, is that okay? That said, is there one that stands out more from the other questions or may I address them in random order? Also, Bob, because I maintain an active ping list, it is not unusual for me to miss thread pings. If you find I have not answered a particular ping, please freepmail me, okay?

120 posted on 11/14/2007 4:48:38 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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