Skip to comments.Abortion
Posted on 11/13/2007 5:34:21 PM PST by Semper
One of the most dangerous political considerations today is that of abortion; it is a most divisive subject. Many in this arena are motivated by religious beliefs. Just in case anyone has forgotten, we are not a theocracy our founding fathers wanted religion left to the churches and the government left to the most qualified.
Those who fanatically oppose the medical procedure of abortion refer to themselves as pro-life, implying that those who do not agree with them do not value life as much as they do (a most arrogant state of mind) .
To believe so strongly in your understanding of life that you assume the right to take away the freedom of a woman to determine what will define her life is dangerous. You certainly have the right to try to influence that woman to do what you think is best, but it is her right and responsibility to make the final decision.
One of the things that hurts the anti abortion movement is the terms which are coined. A fetus is not a baby (just as a child is not an adult and an adult is not a senior citizen). Human life goes through stages of development. And, until someone is born into this human environment, until they breathe on their own, until they feed on their own, until they exist outside of a womans womb, they are not anyones responsibility other than the woman who sustains them.
That is unless you want to overrule the intention of our founders and apply your religious understanding of how life should be interpreted and take away the freedom for which countless already born have died.
Do you presume to insist that human activity (birth, growth, deterioration, death) is more powerful than Gods creation - which is described as spiritual? Can the human decisions to kill a living person (as in war) or to abort a POTENTIAL, undeveloped person actually overrule Gods creations?
I believe that there is nothing humans can do to overturn Gods laws and his infinite creation of good. What is required is for us to FREELY choose to live in accordance with HIS plan. And politically, we need to support those who realistically have a chance to foster that outcome.
This should be an interesting thread...
One more “Vote for my guy” thread with abortion as the lead in.
hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Notice: It says created equal, not born.
Anybody that is for the planned murder of the most helpless
do not believe in our Great Declaration Of Independence!
They also have no morals!
Its not about religion. That’s just a peripheral justification.
The baby inside a woman is a separate unique individual person and is not her property. Her responsibility, yes, but not her property.
The ownership of other persons was once acceptable, but that was wrong.
Pretty simple, really.
Maybe, but what I would really like to see is the republican party not shoot itself by the divisive activity of moral superiority when what we need is a winable alternative to Hillary and the party which wants to take away our diminishing FREEDOM.
So, as a FREE individual, I am supposed to support only those candidates who will require me to FREELY choose to live in accordance with God's plan? Doesn't sound like FREEDOM to me. Sounds more like acquiescing my moral decisions to a politician.
Scare tactics aren’t going to work with me.
Ok. Since we are created by a spiritual Source, in His image, we are also essentially spiritual and not ultimately subject to human, material conditions. So, our existence does not depend upon being "born" into this human environment. What is important is that we have the freedom to grow out of this limited, imperfect (not God created) human environment. And therefore, it might be a blessing to be aborted. Do you claim to have the knowledege that this is not so?
Honestly, I don’t mean to talk down to you but this reads like a high school term paper. One I might have written myself back then. And no... I didn’t have fully formed arguments either.
One thing you’re getting wrong is that the label we apply to something (fetus, baby, child) actually has some meaning to the essence of that thing. It doesn’t.
I was me and you were you the day before birth just as the day after. Or the day before that... Or the day before that.
If an arbitrary line is to be drawn for “human-ness” it would be better to make it about one year after birth. Give mommy plenty of time to decide whether she “wants” this one. If not she can, anytime she wants, just swing the little darling by its ankles and smash its brains all over the sidewalk. It’ll clean up with a hose.
That, at least, would be more honest.
Not so. It is supporting politicians who will let you make your own moral decisions.
Are you for the planned murder of the most helpless?
Are you claiming that permitting abortion equals freedom for the individual?
And some semi-related food for thought: Why do the leaders of the socialized medicine movement tend to be pro-abortion?
Do you claim to have the knowledge that it is?
Why stop at the "blessing" of abortion? Here's a pic of Jack Ruby "blessing" Lee Harvey Oswald, after Oswald himself "blessed" JFK.
Interesting point but I think there is a fine line between responsibility and "ownership". I felt it was a little more than just my responsibility for what my children did when they were in our household. Most people refer to their children as "my" daughter or son - that implies the concept of ownership. However, I agree that all life is the "property" of our Source, God.
I think it's the direction we're headed. That's why electing those who respect life is important. What do you think?
To call someone Satan is a serious matter. I posted a message allowing that I could be persuaded to change my views. How does your post do that?
Your article didn’t say anything about the election.
That’s a different matter, and so far as I know, few if any abortions are performed in the oval office. As a campaign issue it is simply not relevant.
Someday, maybe soon, roe will inevitably be overturned. Then it will be a fierce issue at the state level. But its relevance at the Presidential level is already pretty much over. Sure, one more judge might be nice, but we probably don’t even need that.
Psychotic departure from reality. The “principles of freedom and God’s omnipotence” called forth in support of killing one’s unborn child. Remarkable. I’m sure that’s just what the Founders had in mind. Sheesh.
I agree wholeheartedly.
I can think of several individuals for whom a "retroactive abortion" would have made the world a better place.
What you would really like to see is abortionists running rampant, funded with tax dollar no doubt. Stop the BS, Heinrich.
Yes. I do.
Agree, but that doesn't make it right. Who are we as mere humans to decide which people have worth and which don't. Isn't that playing God?
Knowing that the vast majority of “fetii” would survive outside the responsibilitress’ womb after 7 months of gestation, would you place any limits on abortion? If so what are those limits?
There’s no fine line at all. There is a bright clear line.
My child is my responsibility. My dog is my property.
I can shoot my dog.
I don't agree with that premise. There is only one very clear point in human development and that is birth. All other transitions are indeed arbitrary.
No. And using that language is what helps those who would take your freedom and degrade what this country was founded upon.
Have you not heard of Michael Vick?
If it were my responsibility, I would place huge limits on abortion. But that is not my responsibility, I am not the one carrying a potential human. I am not the one who must decide what is best for that potential human being and for the family (or lack thereof) into which it emerges.
In China the government decides for families how many children they can have - which now happens to be one. Matters of procreation are not the business of government.
If he had merely shot his dog he wouldn’t be in trouble.
I don't think that my mother's decision was what determined my existence - it was God's decision through her. She had two natural abortions before I was born (miscarriages) but if I had not been born from her, if it was God's will that I be born, it would have happened in other circumstances. Human beings are not more powerful than God.
Do not kill
Sorry, FRiend. I'm having trouble making sense of this.
What is the line of demarcation - here's a chart if it helps - where this "it" crosses the line from being a potential human being and into being a real human being?
I think Peter Singer belongs in a locked psychiatric ward.
"Those with the best weapons will have the best plows when the time comes." Semper
Close. Anything but conception is arbitrary. A day before birth is not developmentally different from a day after. The act of birth doesn’t change the nature of the entity, only its location.
A day before conception, however, and there is no “person” to discuss. At the moment of conception however, the personhood is cemented and the only variable is time. The die is cast.
Of course not. If I thought that, I would be trying to legislate away your freedom to decide for yourself.
Should the abortionist to continue with the abortion or perhaps throw the breathing fetus on a shelf and wait for it to die? After all, whose responsibility is the fetus now?
Matters of murder are.
I do, too. The question is for Semper.
So before human conception you do not exist? Our existence depends upon the human sex act? I do not believe that. I may be wrong but I believe our existence depends upon a Source beyond the human sex act. I believe that our existence is eternal (no beginning and no end) because that is the essence of our Source from which we are created in the image and likeness. I believe that our human conception is a "window" through which we may or may not enter this human, material environment but it is not our basic origin. Unless you reject all spiritual teaching, this can not be our ultimate origin.
I believe that it is not mine and it is not yours. I pray that the decision is based upon free moral considerations and that it contributes to the greater good of all directly concerned.