Posted on 12/07/2007 1:41:57 PM PST by NYer
Jesus as man had a mother - Mary - who chosen by God. Jesus as God had no mother. This is why proclaiming Mary to be the Mother of God is wrong. She was the mother of the man Christ put on when He came to Earth.
You seem to avoid the uncomfortable fact that, on the manipulation of one verse, Luther poured the foundation of Protestantism. Therefore, according to the mystifying exegesis you employ, Protestantism is even less Biblical than Mary’s motherhood of God.
Calling it “Marian hogwash” isn’t exactly bolstering your position. As far as I can tell, Mary is prophesied as far back as Genesis 3. In terms of importance, why didn’t God prophesy the coming of the Bible instead?
Bump!
Put on like a Zorro costume? I don't understand. God could have created His own flesh from dust like Adam. Why did He choose to enter through the gate of Mary? Why would he enter into an explicit Mother/Son relationship only to deny the very seed of that relationship personified by the Mother (Mary)?
Rememeber, Genesis prophesied that it would be the seed of the "woman", which totally contradicts the cultural norm that the "seed" is of the "man".
If we fast forward to Isaiah, and the famous prophecy given to Ahaz, we find that Ahaz does not want to ask for sign from God:
Isaiah 7:11 "Ask a sign of the LORD your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven." [i.e. beyond even human grasp]
Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el."
God completely violates the rules of nature in order to take on the flesh. But He's not allowed to violate our concept of time, space, and human relationships to make Mary His mother? Over and over again, God tells His people "don't put me in a box"; all it takes is the faith of a "mustard seed" to move a mountain. If you say it's not possible for Mary to be the Mother of God, then God is not all powerful. The real answer is that in order to accept the incarnation in the first place, all human understanding of nature has to cease. In the same way, Mary's motherhood of God requires much the same, but why believe the greater miracle and not the lesser? It doesn't compute.
(sigh!)Again, scripture clearly indicates you are wrong. Luke 2:46-51 Then, after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard Him were amazed at His understanding and His answers. When they saw Him, they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, "Son,why have You treated us this way? Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You." And He said to them, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that had to be in My Father's house?" But they did not understand the statement which He had made to them. And He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and He continued in subjection to them;
Note the "He" is capitalized, indicating God.
Ask yourself - was born or is He self existent? You are confusing God with the man Jesus. Jesus was born as a man but He was God before, during, and after that. As God, He wasn’t born and has no mother.
Why the fixation on trying to establish Mary as “the Mother of God”? Is it because the RCC has a branch that worships her and proclaims her a partner in the salvation of men? The Bible calls such idolatry. Repentance would be the right step.
Correction: opening should read: “Ask yourself - was God born or is He self existent?”
The answer, of course, is both. Your continued insistence on separating Jesus the Man from Jesus, God indicates your desire to force the Mystery of the Incarnation into the bounds of your own human logic. 'There is a way which seems right to man.' But God's ways are above our understanding. Hence my 'fixation' on Mary as Mother of God. This title was given to Mary precisely because of the horrid heresies that arose when others -following the same path down which you are skipping- also decided to apply their finite human logic to the actions of our infinite God.
Frankly, throughout our discussion you have provided no scripture to support your views, relying instead on 'winging it' with your own human logic. In contrast, I have given scripture after scripture both to support traditional Christian orthodoxy and to refute your points. My hope is that in doing so I may bring you to a deeper, more full understanding of just who Our Lord Jesus Christ truly is -One Person with two natures, Human and Divine.
It might be because the Bible version you used began verse 51 with "He". That is gramitaclly correct. The fact that most versions begin verse 51 with "And he...". That is gramatically correct and does away with your "God" interpretation.
You conventiently left out verse 52:
[52] And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man.
God increased in wisdom and stature with God?
In my post #22 I referred Colossians chapter 2 (to show Christ as creator) and Philippians chapter 2 (to show how he “took upon Himself” human form).
God does not have a mother - if He did, He could not be “I AM”. He would be “son of Mary”. And that’s heresy.
Do you contend that Mary is NOT the Mother of God?
So you are saying that Jesus was only divine and NOT human at all?
Thank you — will read
All I’m saying is that the Bible says Jesus is God the Son, who took on human form, as human was born of a virgin, lived as a man without sin, was crucified for the sin of man as the Lamb of God, died, was buried, and raised from the dead on the 3rd day, and thaw whosoever believes in Him for the forgiveness of sin shall be saved from hell and damnation and will live forever with almighty God in glory. Salvation is of and from and for the glory of the Lord Jesus - not of any works of any man.
Jesus the man had an earthly mother, she is not, was not, can not be the mother of God. She is a mere human who had no more potential to save herself than anyone else and she does not intercede nor help save anyone. Christ alone is the High Priest who intercedes on behalf of His sheep and the Holy Spirit is the only one who probes the deep thoughts of God and helps us commune with Him. God in three persons - complete, everlasting, self existent, creator, sustainer, savior.
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit were here eons before Mary showed up...How could she then be their Mother???
Her Son is Jesus Christ, who is both God and Man.
This is one of those Biblical mysteries that we accept on faith.
You can not separate His Divinity!
Perhaps you don’t accept that Christ is both God and Man?
There is a name for that heresy!
There is a name for that heresy!
You guys don't believe in Heaven the way the scriptures portray it...As I understand it, you guys think heaven is a state of mind...Not a physical place...
Jesus the man was born and he died...Jesus, the 2nd part of the Trinity wasn't created in a womb...He already Was...
You don't have to accept that by faith...The record is written in the scriptures...
When we die, this old body will fall off and we'll head to heaven...A physical place...Without our body...
We will receive a new body, ultimately...
Will we still be human men and women??? Pretty unlikely...Not in the sense we know it...
You want to call it a heresy??? Go for it...What's that going to do, discourage me or prevent me from joining your church???
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***Jesus the man had an earthly mother, she is not, was not, can not be the mother of God.***
If you believe that, then you are contradicting the clear words of Holy Scripture. St. John says in Chapter 1, verse 14 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” This clearly shows that Jesus, present from all eternity (the Word), was born in the flesh. In order to be born, one has to have a mother. Indeed, Holy Scripture says that the Holy Spirit was His father, because the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary so that “the holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” Luke 1:35b Holy Scripture clearly says that the person born of Mary was God, therefore she was the mother of God.
If you are saying that Mary cannot be the mother of God, then you are saying that Jesus was not God, at least not when He was a baby. This is the heresy of Nestorianism: that Jesus was two distinct persons, the human and the divine. If this is the case, then which person died on the Cross - the human or the divine? If it was the human person, then it was not sufficient to atone for our sins. The doctrine of “Theotokos,” declared by The Church at the Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D., combatted this heresy. The doctrine declares Mary to be “Theotokos,” the “God-bearer” or “Mother of God,” in order to clarify that Jesus was the Second Person of the Trinity and not just a human man or two separate persons. The doctrine had its origins in defining the nature of Jesus as being both human and divine and not separate. Your posts definitely **sound** like Nestorianism.
In addition, if you believe that Mary or any other of the saints cannot intercede for us, then you are, once again, contradicting the clear words of Holy Scripture which say that the saints are now before the throne of God:
Revelation 7:14b, 15 “And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.”
and that they offer their prayers:
Revelation 5:8 “And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.”
and these prayers of the saints are offered upon the altar before the throne of God:
Revelation 8:3-4 “And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.”
Well, you understand wrong, then.
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