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New Anglican Blog: "English-Speaking Christianity"
English-Speaking Christianity ^ | 2007 | vanity

Posted on 12/28/2007 5:29:44 PM PST by sionnsar

To the Traditional Anglican ping list: I discovered a (fairly) new Anglican blog today, run by a fellow whose other blog I had read for a long time, and thought some of you might find this interesting. English-Speaking Christianity


TOPICS: Catholic; Mainline Protestant; Orthodox Christian
KEYWORDS: anglicans

1 posted on 12/28/2007 5:29:45 PM PST by sionnsar
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To: ahadams2; QBFimi; Tailback; MBWilliams; showme_the_Glory; blue-duncan; brothers4thID; sionnsar; ...
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Speak the truth in love. Eph 4:15

2 posted on 12/28/2007 5:30:11 PM PST by sionnsar (trad-anglican.faithweb.com |Iran Azadi| 5yst3m 0wn3d - it's N0t Y0ur5 (SONY) | UN: Useless Nations)
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To: sionnsar; Huber; bobjam

“But the greatest debt that we owe to the Orthodox Churches, next to the Creeds and definitions of Faith, is the example that they set before us of a Church which is unquestionably Catholic without being Papal: which has preserved the Creed, the Sacraments, the Hierarchy, and the life of Catholic devotion, in spite of the most severe and protracted dangers and difficulties, without Roman addition or Protestant subtraction. In their liturgy and their other services we see and feel a corporate devotion which is unsurpassed in Christendom; in the bishops of their venerable sees we behold true successors of the Apostles by whom the Gospel was first preached to the world; in the sufferings of their martyrs and confessors, such as Chrysostom of Smyrna, Tikhon of Moscow, Benjamin of Petrograd, we who have not for centuries “resisted unto blood, striving against sin,” recognize the genuine inheritance of the martyrs of old; and in the friendship and love which they continually show towards us, both as a Church and as individuals, we perceive the fulfillment of the words of the beloved disciple, “My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue: but in deed and in truth.”

Interesting observation. I’ll read the other articles later. In any event it is a blog worth bookmarking, I think.


3 posted on 12/28/2007 5:53:52 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: sionnsar

Interesting to see this posted on the site...


Project Canterbury:
English Catholicism
An Explanation of the Principles and Aims of the Anglican Society
by the Reverend C.B. Moss, D.D.
An Address delivered at the seventh Annual Meeting of the Anglican Society, October, 1931.
Reprinted from The English Catholic, Vol. iv. No. 15.

We of the Anglican Society stand, first of all, for the Catholic Religion. We are Catholics, not only in the strict sense, in which all members of the Church of England are Catholics, but also in the popular or party sense. We accept the Creeds, we obey the laws, we use the sacraments, of the Church Universal, and of the Anglican Communion in particular. We are trying to live the Catholic life as it is everywhere understood. For instance, we believe ourselves bound to assist in the offering of the Holy Eucharist on all Sundays and chief Holy Days: and though we do not want to enforce our practice on our fellow Churchmen, we do, ourselves, make our confession to a priest. We hold that the Church’s marriage law is of Divine command. We keep the feast and fast days, and the other rules of the Church. If anyone can claim the title of Catholic, we can.

This is where our position differs from that of the “Westminster Group.” There is no opposition between us and that party; some of us, probably, are members of it. But the Westminster Group is composed, and is intended to be composed, of people of different views, agreeing to put “Church before party.” We are not a combination of people of different views. We are agreed about our “views,” and we are out to propagate them. Also, the Westminster Group is a party, with its own candidates for the Church Assembly. Our work does not lie in that field. We are not out to promote any special legislation, but to promote a particular outlook, a particular way of carrying out the existing laws. That is another difference between us and the Westminster Group. We are not the same kind of society.

But if we are Anglo-Catholics, why are we not content with the other Anglo-Catholic Organizations, the Church Union, S.Y.A., C.B.S., and so on. Why form a new society?

Because we think that there is a great deal in the Anglo-Catholic Movement which is neither Catholic nor “Anglo.” We are inside the Anglo-Catholic Movement, not outside, and our aim is to maintain and to propagate its true principles, and to fight against, and if possible destroy, certain errors which have been foisted into it.

To explain clearly what I mean, I must go back into history four hundred and twenty years.

. . . .

There was the way of Luther, which was Revolution. The existing Church was done away with, the new national or sectarian bodies, without any claim to historic connexion with the old Church, were set up in its place. The standard of doctrine was the Bible as interpreted by each individual: which meant, in practice, by the great Reformers and their successors.

There was the way of Loyola, which was Counter-Reformation. The most scandalous of the abuses were removed; the existing doctrinal system, with its medieval additions to the original faith, was re-affirmed and declared irreformable: the standard of faith was asserted to be Scripture and Tradition, interpreted by the Pope: the central authority of Rome was enormously strengthened, and at the same time purified; great efforts were made to educate the clergy, to raise their spiritual level, and to identify the Catholic and Roman religion with the best learning of the time. At the same time, intellectual and political freedom were severely restrained, and the Church became identified with obscurantism and autocracy, with all that is associated in our minds with the Pope, the Jesuits and the Inquisition.

All over Europe, these two camps faced one another, as they do still, Luther and Loyola, Reformation and Counter-Reformation, the Bible and the Mass. We believe that both were wrong; that though each produced great saints, and though there is still much to be learned from both, both were one-sided, and therefore false, and that the lamentable state of Christendom to-day is chiefly due to these two great aberrations from the primitive faith.

But there is a third way, which the Church of England, half-consciously, with much stumbling and inconsistency, pursued in isolation. Here the ancient Church remained, with many of the ancient abuses: but there was no irreformable Council, and no bolstering up of medieval accretions. The standard of faith was the Bible, as interpreted, not by the individual, but by the ancient undivided Church, and, within those limits, by the Church of England. Hindered by all kinds of obstacles of which her isolation was not the least, and by the presence in her midst, and even among her rulers, of many who did not accept, or did not even understand her principles, the English Church, by the special providence of God, preserved for the modern world the Catholic Faith without medieval accretions or irreformable decrees; the Mass and the open Bible; the sacramental system with intellectual freedom.

. . . .

Now it is this that we stand for: the principles, the outlook of Anglicanism, as it was developed by the Caroline Divines, as it reached its full development in the Oxford Movement, as it cams to terms with the modern world in the “Lux Mundi” group. We stand for the inheritance of Andrewes and Laud, of Bramhall and Ken, of Keble and Pusey, of Church and Moberly and Scott Holland: and our principles may be summed up thus:—

1. The supremacy in matters of faith of Holy Scripture as interpreted by the Councils of the Undivided Church.

2. The right and duty of the Church to accommodate its teaching to modern knowledge, within the limits of the Catholic Faith.

3. The right of national churches to govern themselves, and to decide, for their own members, all questions of doctrine and discipline, without interference, within the limits set by Holy Scripture, the doctrinal decrees of the Councils based upon it, and the necessity of preserving the validity, or universal recognition, of Sacraments.

In saying this, we do not ignore the faults of our Church: of which the gravest is, that she has lost the English people. Historically, that loss was the consequence of the 18th century, not of the 16th: the result, not of Anglican principles, but of the fact that the Church has never had a fair chance to develop those principles on a large scale, and with freedom from political control.

The Oxford Movement is the starting point of Anglican Church life as we know it. What was the Oxford Movement? James Anthony Froude, M. Thureau-Dangin, and Mr. Spencer Jones alike assure us, that it was the belated appearance in England of the Counter-Reformation. The best authorities, however, from Dean Church to Canon Ollard, have shown clearly that the Oxford Movement had nothing to do with the Counter-Reformation, but was based on completely different principles. And what we are here to fight, by every means in our power, is the invasion of the Anglican Churches by the influence of the Counter-Reformation, founded as it is on the Council of Trent.

That Council is the basis of nearly all we call Romanism as distinct from Catholicism. It introduced a new principle, contrary to the teaching of the Fathers, when it set Tradition, as an independent source of dogma, alongside Holy Scripture, and gave Rome the right to decide what is true tradition. On this foundation it proceeded to make a number of new dogmas necessary to salvation, none of which can be proved from Scripture, and some of which are contrary to Scripture: and to settle questions of discipline irreformably, so as to limit the liberty of local churches and of individuals. It declared itself infallible, and consequently has been ever since an insuperable barrier to re-union. Our three principles which I mentioned before are all contrary to the decrees of Trent: for it has

1. set Tradition alongside Scripture as an additional source of dogma;

2. given the Pope the power to limit intellectual freedom, a power used by Pius IX in the Syllabus Errorum (1864), which declared war on all modern thought, and by Pius X in the anti-Modernist Oath, which enforced Fundamentalism in the Roman Communion;

3. made all local churches and hierarchies the slaves of Rome, so that all their affairs, even to the minutest details, are controlled from the centre.

Gallicanism became confined to the maintenance of special privileges for national churches in certain countries, and so was a mere survival after Trent, and was only kept in being by the power of the Kings of France; it was finally destroyed by the Vatican Council. The Infallibility and Universal Episcopate of the Pope, decreed by the Vatican Council, are the logical corollaries of Trent; the Old Catholics, when they rejected them, were compelled to reject the authority of Trent too, and this alone is what has made re-union between them and us possible.
. . . .

Our repudiation of Trent, and of Tridentine principles, methods, and atmosphere, in doctrine, discipline, and devotion, must have an outward and visible sign. This we find in the English Use.

Let me be quite clear about this. We are not medievalists. We do not advocate all the ceremonial used in Salisbury Cathedral in the 14th century, still less the re-introduction of the Sarum Rite.

I have the greatest respect for the ancient and illustrious Church of Sarum in whose cathedral, I am happy to say, the vestments are worn and the altars are all arranged according to the English Use: but it is Sarum of the 20th, not the 14th century!

The English Use is the Book of Common Prayer, with such ornaments and ceremonies as were in use in England when it was first made, and are capable of being used with it. We ardently maintain the right of the English Church to develop her rites, ceremonies and ornaments, as she chooses, and for that and other reasons most of us welcome the Liturgy of 1928: but we insist that the point at which to begin is the point which our development had reached when it was interrupted by Calvinism, namely 1549, and not any later developments in the Churches of the Counter-Reformation.

The reason that we insist on the English Use is not only that it is our duty as Catholics to obey our lawful superiors, who are in our case the Synods of Canterbury and York, or other Anglican provinces: nor only because it is far more beautiful, as well as on the whole more practical, than the ill-fitting ceremonies and ornaments borrowed from foreign models; (some of which even Father Adrian Fortescue calls “eighteenth century bad taste,” and which the most intelligent Roman ritualists are trying to get rid of); but also, because the English Use is the outward and visible sign of our principles. When I see an “English Altar” with riddels and two candles on the mensa, my thought is not, “This is correct,” or even “This is beautiful,” but “Here they evidently believe in the principles of the Oxford Movement and not in those of the Counter-Reformation.”

Is this insular, or schismatical? Only if you believe, as I fear great numbers of Anglo-Catholics do believe subconsciously, that Romanism is “the real thing,” and that outside the English-speaking world all Christians worth mentioning are Romanists.
. . . .

Neither Anglo-Catholics nor Romanists carry on their propaganda by addressing the reason. It is the imagination and the herd instinct by which people are caught. We must be constantly teaching, positively not controversially, the greatness and the splendour of the Anglican position, the romance of Anglican history; we must never suffer the contempt of anything as only Anglican, which is only too common; we must use the word Catholic to mean that which is primitive, Eastern, and Anglican, and not Tridentine, in opposition not only to what is Puritan but to what is Romanist. We must be always suggesting that our principles and our practice are both Catholic and up-to-date. It is really rather Late Victorian to have six candles on the altar, and to fill your sanctuary with knick-knacks, like those in a French church, the ecclesiastical analogues of the antimacasser and the aspidistra!
. . . .

If then we make our boast of the Anglican name, it is not out of any Jingoistic spirit, but because we believe that the Anglican Churches, in spite of all their faults and defects, have been given, with others, the task of propagating that which the world needs. And it is in this spirit that we venture to use the lines of George Herbert on the British Church:—

“But dearest Mother, what these miss,
The mean Thy praise and glory is,
And long may be.
Blessed be God, Whose love it was
To double-moat thee with His grace,
And none but thee.”


4 posted on 12/28/2007 6:12:43 PM PST by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: Huber
The characterization here of Catholicism is a total straw-man, and almost entirely inaccurate.

There has always been a strong strain of anti-Catholicism in the English church (mostly political in origin). But it is odd to see it in the "Anglo-Catholics" who usually avoid it like the plague.

The Anglican Black Legend lives on . . . .

5 posted on 12/28/2007 6:48:57 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother; sionnsar
The characterization here of Catholicism is a total straw-man, and almost entirely inaccurate.

There has always been a strong strain of anti-Catholicism in the English church (mostly political in origin). But it is odd to see it in the "Anglo-Catholics" who usually avoid it like the plague.

I think that you need to place the passage in the historical context of 1931 and the objective at that time of carving out an Anglo-Catholic identity within the C of E. As you know, Anglo-Catholicism is no longer entirely anchored to Canterbury, especially if one considers the Continuing Anglican movement that originated in the 1970s. Freed from a need to serve as apologists for "the English Reformation", Anglo-Catholic thought seems to be developing a greater self-awareness as an English speaking analog to Eastern Orthodoxy.

6 posted on 12/28/2007 7:03:22 PM PST by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: AnAmericanMother; Huber

“The characterization here of Catholicism is a total straw-man, and almost entirely inaccurate.

There has always been a strong strain of anti-Catholicism in the English church (mostly political in origin). But it is odd to see it in the “Anglo-Catholics” who usually avoid it like the plague.

The Anglican Black Legend lives on . . . .”

Seems to me more a characterization of “Romanism” rather than Catholicism. I can’t say that Anglicanism ever attained that sort of Catholicism in the West that the first article claims for it. I simply am not familiar enough with it to know. But I do recognize some of the same attitudes which mark and have marked Orthodoxy for a couple of thousand years,... and for and from a period long, long before the Great Schism. That’s not anti-Catholicism, AM. If its “anti” anything, its anti-Romanism.


7 posted on 12/28/2007 7:04:39 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: sionnsar

Many of the French Huguenots who fled here during the 1600’s joined the Dutch Reformed Church and/or became Anglicans...

please add me to your PING List...


8 posted on 12/28/2007 9:25:09 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Huber

“...Anglo-Catholic thought seems to be developing a greater self-awareness as an English speaking analog to Eastern Orthodoxy.”

Some say that the so called “Western Rite” of the Antiochian Church is just such an English speaking Orthodoxy. I thoroughly disagree. That said, a true English speaking Orthodoxy would be quite wonderful. Personally I am convinced that it existed and flourished in the Celtic Church until that was overwhelmed by Rome. Could it be re-established without being simply a museum piece? I don’t know. 1000 years after Rome overcame Orthodoxy in England and Scotland, it also pretty much wiped out the praxis and theology of the Maronites over in Lebanon. Its being consciously restored now and it will be a long process. The Maronites have the advantage of the Orthodox and the Melkites being right there with examples of the ancient praxis and mindset. There is no true Celtic Church left and London is a long way from Athens.


9 posted on 12/29/2007 6:16:02 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Huber
OH! NINETEEN-THIRTY-ONE!

Sorry . . . that explains a lot.

Charles Kingsley's generation were still alive and smarting from the defection of John Henry Newman et al.

Never mind. < g >

10 posted on 12/29/2007 3:31:07 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Kolokotronis
The "Celtic Church" is unfortunately largely a myth established by the Anglican Church seeking to differentiate itself from Rome. The Scottish Presbyterians picked up on it too, trying to differentiate themselves from Geneva.

Like the Druids, it's whatever you want it to be, as should be apparent from both the Anglos and the Presbys managing to use it at the same time.

And my apologies for the lack of clarity, but when I say "Catholic" with a big "C", I mean the Big Bad Bishop of Rome and all his entourage, while "catholic" with a little "c" means the Church Universal.

11 posted on 12/29/2007 3:34:11 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother
“The “Celtic Church” is unfortunately largely a myth established by the Anglican Church seeking to differentiate itself from Rome.”

Well, different people use history for their own different purposes. Rome’s version of history, the one where the fullness of The Church is found in one man and all the local dioceses and national or regional churches are merely franchises of the Roman home office is a version Roman has, until quite recently, been peddling ever since the Great Schism. Now, because it is so intent on reunion with Holy Orthodoxy, it no longer presses that definition of The Church.

As for the Celtic Church, as one of the articles on the blog points out, monasticism in England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales was distinctly Eastern. It bore little resemblance to Western Benedictine style monasticism. The ties of the monks at Iona and elsewhere with the monks in the Desert between Egypt and Jerusalem is very well documented. The Conciliar/Synodal system prevalent in the British Isles before the arrival of Augustine at Canterbury, a system recognizable as thoroughly Eastern and thus Catholic stands in stark contrast to the pyramidal system set up under Rome’s local managers.

I am not saying, AM, that I am convinced for one minute that any form of modern Anglicanism is that ancient Celtic Catholicism. In fact, I think it is at best a pale imitation, but it has been my experience that Episcopalians/Anglicans who come to Orthodoxy have a much easier time and come to understand Orthodoxy and its mindset much, much quicker than converts from Roman Catholicism. This is counter intuitive because of course Latin theology and Orthodox theology are pretty much the same, but the mindsets are 180 degrees off each other. The way we live the Faith and respond to it are opposite. The Anglicans seem to get that almost immediately. It takes Latins as long, sometimes longer, as Evangelicals to understand the Orthodox “phronema”. There is something of a vestigial Orthodoxy lurking there in Anglicanism. I can only assume its a reflection of a long past Eastern way of looking at The Faith.

12 posted on 12/29/2007 4:17:11 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
I don't think there's any connection there other than a scholarly one. And I was an Anglican for over 40 years. . . .

Our local Orthodox parishes here are extremely parochial and don't welcome 'outsiders'. It never even crossed my mind to consider it, even though I have Orthodox (Greek) friends they have never invited me to church. The Melkites (nominally under the Roman rite) are far more welcoming, but their parish is up the other side of Alpharetta.

Your Roman 'version of history' is just a wee bit exaggerated, don't think that's fair. We'll never get the two lungs of the Church back together with that attitude!

13 posted on 12/29/2007 6:10:03 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother

“Our local Orthodox parishes here are extremely parochial and don’t welcome ‘outsiders’. It never even crossed my mind to consider it, even though I have Orthodox (Greek) friends they have never invited me to church.”

I am surprised to hear this. The GOA Metropolis of Atlanta is one of the fastest growing Orthodox metropolises through conversion in the country. I will say that it is uncommon for Orthodox to invite Roman Catholics to a Liturgy or a devotion except perhaps during Great Lent. Aside from the liturgical history aspects and perhaps some cultural ones, there’s nothing sacramentally different going on in an Orthodox Church from what is going on in a Latin Rite Church. In other words, it likely wouldn’t occur to an Orthodox Christian to invite a Latin because there’s no real religious reason for it. You are all fine where you are. The same cannot be said for others, however.

Now, the Melkites; they are wonderful, friendly people, as most Christian Arabs are. We have several who attend our Divine Liturgy regularly as there is no Melkite parish in this state and they don’t feel comfortable in the one Uniate and many Latin Rite parishes here. By the way, you’ll see nothing different at a Melkite Divine Liturgy than you would see at my parish. You might hear the pope commemorated.

“Your Roman ‘version of history’ is just a wee bit exaggerated, don’t think that’s fair. We’ll never get the two lungs of the Church back together with that attitude!”

I sincerely doubt we will live to see that, though it won’t be for lack of trying on the part of the present pope and most of the patriarchs. The laity simply won’t accept it, on either side. It will take several generations of honest talk among monastics and clergy and laity for anything like reunion to have a chance. For example, if the majority of Latins believe that the pope is the infallible vicar of Christ on earth with immediate ordinary jurisdiction even over you and me, and no Orthodox person alive on earth today believes or ever will believe that, how do we reunite? On the other hand, if your sacraments and ours are equally licit and efficacious, what difference does unity make to you and me? I feel no compulsion to receive communion at a Roman Catholic mass and I suspect I am safe in concluding that you feel no compulsion to receive in an Orthodox Church. Do either of us seriously doubt that “salvation” can be found within either particular church? If not, what difference does the fact of the schism make to you and me as we look at each other? I say none.


14 posted on 12/29/2007 6:34:30 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
Do either of us seriously doubt that “salvation” can be found within either particular church? If not, what difference does the fact of the schism make to you and me as we look at each other? I say none.

Very good point.

15 posted on 12/29/2007 6:35:55 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Kolokotronis
Absolutely, both are valid and we are all happy where we are.

But at a minimum, in the bad times to come, we may need to work together more closely.

16 posted on 12/29/2007 6:40:57 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother; Pyro7480

“But at a minimum, in the bad times to come, we may need to work together more closely.”

Precisely the point of the MP and its a very good one. Greeks didn’t have to become English to fight the Nazis. The same holds true for the present and coming struggle.


17 posted on 12/29/2007 7:00:52 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; Pyro7480; AnAmericanMother; sionnsar

While I have a different view on the continuity of Anglicanism from its roots in Celtic Christianity, seeing it as a current (often quiet or subtle, even underground at times) through English speaking Christianity, older than all of those Celtic crosses; conversations like this are wonderfully edifying and make posting all of these threads worthwhile.


18 posted on 12/30/2007 6:11:19 AM PST by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: Huber; sionnsar; lightman; redgolum

Growing up I never noticed anything particularly Orthodox about Anglicanism though the old people always said that it was “English Orthodoxy”. What I did know was that the Anglican priests in town were friends of the family, another was a neighbor at our summer cottage and the chaplain at my prep school was an Episcopal priest (a wonderful man with a wonderful wife...they are still wonderful!). In all honesty this sort of Orthodox subtext I’ve seen in Anglicanism comes from maybe the past 20 years seeing converts into Orthodoxy from TEC and for the past few years reading Anglican writings here and elsewhere on the internet and interacting with people like you guys.

You know where else I see more or less the same Orthodox foundations? Conservative Lutheranism and for the same reasons.


19 posted on 12/30/2007 6:39:17 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Huber
Bless the English! They are specialists in claiming all sorts of subtle underground transmissions of Ancient Tradition, be it Druids, "ancient fertility rites", or Celtic Christianity. Even the English Wiccans continue to claim an origin handed-down-secretly-by-word-of-mouth, even though the 'religion' was invented in the 1920s by a guy named Gardiner who wanted to meet chicks.

Each and every local custom (like the Padstow Hobby Horse, or the Mummer Plays, or the Britannia Coconut Dancers) is always assigned roots in the dim, dark, British past, where blue-painted Britons and gold-torqued Druids roam amid ancient dolmens.

Don't get me wrong, it's charming and I love it, it's so quintessentially English. But it exists quite independent of and even despite any historical evidence.

20 posted on 12/30/2007 6:41:47 AM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Kolokotronis

I know it wasn’t until AD 664 at the Synod of Whitby Abbey that any Churches in the British Isles pledged fealty to Rome. The great saints Patrick and Columba were surely very Catholic, but not, except by apocryphal history, Roman Catholic.


21 posted on 12/30/2007 11:43:51 AM PST by AnalogReigns
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To: AnAmericanMother; Kolokotronis; sionnsar
Bless the English! They are specialists in claiming all sorts of subtle underground transmissions of Ancient Tradition, be it Druids, "ancient fertility rites", or Celtic Christianity. Even the English Wiccans continue to claim an origin handed-down-secretly-by-word-of-mouth, even though the 'religion' was invented in the 1920s by a guy named Gardiner who wanted to meet chicks. Each and every local custom (like the Padstow Hobby Horse, or the Mummer Plays, or the Britannia Coconut Dancers) is always assigned roots in the dim, dark, British past, where blue-painted Britons and gold-torqued Druids roam amid ancient dolmens. Don't get me wrong, it's charming and I love it, it's so quintessentially English. But it exists quite independent of and even despite any historical evidence.

More broadly, the custom is quintessentially Christian and quintessentially one of tradition. The origins of many Catholic traditions are often somewhat obscure. That does not make them incorrect.

Also, given that Christianity first spread to Brittania under the Roman empire, but experienced a break in Roman economic ties much earlier than in Gaul, Palestine or North Africa, so there was a period of separate development of Christianity in Celtic Briton prior to Saint Gregory the Great and Saint Aiden and Saint Augustine of Canterbury. All of this supports the point that K was making earlier. In terms of continuity and transmission through the time of Thomas a Becket, Henry VIII, Elizabeth and Cromwell, things get more subtle. Was England Roman Catholic during the middle ages? I believe the answer is clearly yes, but with its own cultural flavor. Did Catholicism survive in England after the reformation? Yes, but in various forms, whether under the secret Jesuit missions or simply on a local level because ties with either the East or Rome would be too dangerous. Perhaps some of the underground Catholicism took on a more eastern characteristic because of similar political conditions to those experienced by the ancient church. However, as K also points out, there remained strong and deeply ingrained traditions (and we are not talking about Druidism or Wicca here) which continue to incline many Anglicans as much toward orthodoxy as toward a purely Latin tradition.

22 posted on 12/30/2007 11:53:41 AM PST by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: AnalogReigns
Well, since Patrick studied for years at Auxerre, France under St. Germanus, the bishop there, and was consecrated bishop by Pope Celestine, I don't think that characterization is exactly accurate . . .
23 posted on 12/30/2007 11:55:22 AM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnalogReigns
I know it wasn’t until AD 664 at the Synod of Whitby Abbey that any Churches in the British Isles pledged fealty to Rome. The great saints Patrick and Columba were surely very Catholic, but not, except by apocryphal history, Roman Catholic.

Thanks for posting. I was trying to reply to AAM without having to pull out my references! However, there's nothing like having cold, hard facts!

24 posted on 12/30/2007 11:57:14 AM PST by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: Huber
Well, once we get into Reformation times, it's clear that Catholicism in England was as much under siege as Catholicism in Ireland, and resorted to ad hoc methods to stay alive. But that's all during the period of recorded history.

There was not as much break in trade after Rome 'officially' left Britain as people think. Archaeology has shown that trade and communications continued. For example, St. Patrick (aside from being held captive in Ireland where the Roman writ never ran) moved freely between Britain and the Continent in the 5th century. The "Dark Ages" were largely a Renaissance construct, things went along - not as well as they had under the Pax Romana, but pretty well. The Black Death in the 14th century was far more of a practical dislocation than the fall of Rome.

25 posted on 12/30/2007 11:59:43 AM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother

Only secular socialists take Gibbons seriously anymore, at least as a historian. (He remains worthy of reading from a stylistic perspective.) Your economic view appears derived from Pirenne, which is a much better place to start. However, while trade continued between Britain and the continent, there was a clear break in administration which occurred during the formative years of much of the administration of the Roman Catholic church.

The Romans left Brittania around 409. The last Roman emporer was deposed in 476. Whereas the Goths, Visigoths, etc. maintained many of the customs of the empire, including many elements of its administration, this was not the case in Britain, where the Celtic Britons were invaded by the un-Romanized Angles and Saxons. Whereas the bishops of continental Europe had clear continuity with imperial Christianity, this was not the case in Britain until the time of Pope Gregory the Great.


26 posted on 12/30/2007 12:24:31 PM PST by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: Kolokotronis

If there was ever a possibility for this “Anglo-Catholicism,” along the Orthodox model, it seems to me it was cut short by the political developments of the 17th Century. During the 18th Century, both “high church” and “low church,” elements in the Cof E. were heavily influenced by the reform tradition. John Henry Newman, who came from an evangelical family to Oxford, followed this “Third Way” until he found that his bishops were not bishops in the traditional sense but governmental officials in a sense that no Orthodox/Catholic bishop ought to be. Erasmianism has been the fatal flaw in the C.of E. The Liturgical Movement dressed up the priests in catholic looking garments, and there was a return of sorts to early Anglicanism, but it could not carry the day.


27 posted on 12/30/2007 12:28:47 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: AnAmericanMother; Huber; sionnsar
“Don’t get me wrong, it’s charming and I love it, it’s so quintessentially English. But it exists quite independent of and even despite any historical evidence.”

Put as only an American would put it! A Greek, an Arab, a Serb, a Russian, even an Irishman would never look at a society or a culture that way, AM. What is a bit more than disingenuous about your comment is that America is particularly prone to historically groundless mythology and, dangerously, we often let it define our foreign policy.

28 posted on 12/30/2007 12:41:46 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
Oh, it's not an American view.

Charles Kightly repeatedly refers to this phenomenon in this book. So does Stuart Piggott in his book The Druids, the first volume of the 7-volume Penguin History of England.

I may be an American, but I read English history for my undergraduate degree.

29 posted on 12/30/2007 12:56:30 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: sionnsar

I suppose speakers of Aramaic need not apply...


30 posted on 12/30/2007 1:01:58 PM PST by eleni121 (+ En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great)
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To: RobbyS; Huber; sionnsar

“The Liturgical Movement dressed up the priests in catholic looking garments, and there was a return of sorts to early Anglicanism, but it could not carry the day.”

RS, I doubt the likelihood that Anglicanism, on any broad basis (this is not to say that there are not Anglican parishes out in the world which are fully Catholic in theology and praxis but in an Anglican form as opposed to Roman or Greek or Arab or Slavic), can recover its pre-Whitby character as a fully Catholic Church outside the Roman style. Too much has changed and the society around it is fundamentally antithetical to an Orthodox mindset. Unlike the Maronites, who may well recover that which Rome almost completely stamped out, there is no surrounding, supportive culture within which to restore an “Orthodox” Anglicanism. But I will say that there is a corner of Anglicanism where an Anglican form of Orthodoxy could, in fact here and there does, flourish and that is in monasticism. Perhaps starting there it could restore The Faith to Anglicanism as practiced “in the world”.

As a side note, I’d have said that a more “Orthodox” Anglicanism was still an even odds chance into the late 19th century and frankly it was the more evangelical wing of that church which seemed more patristic in its theology than the Anglo Catholics of Card. Newman. The theology of the Anglo Catholics is much closer to the “innovative scholasticism” as one Orthodox theologian called it, of the Latin Church of those times than it was to the patristic theology of of Orthodoxy. You tell me, RS, who sounds more like the Eastern Fathers, +JC Ryle or Card. Newman?

The whole “smells and bells” thing is important and because lex orandi, lex credendi is a basic principle of both the Orthodox and Latin churches, the lack of a sound liturgical praxis in evangelical Anglicanism is as troubling as the High Church praxis of the Anglo-Catholics may have seemed comforting. From where I sit in Orthodoxy in 2007, however, in a church which is regularly receiving converts from TEC, the underlying theology is far more important, for now, than the praxis.


31 posted on 12/30/2007 1:18:20 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Huber

“The origins of many Catholic traditions are often somewhat obscure.”

Of course they are obscure. They arose among simple people how either couldn’t or simply didn’t write down when they started or why. I can’t see why having an historical record for traditions, especially religious traditions, is an issue. I have to say that such a pov is both very Western, very “modern” and very scholastic. I should think that the last thing the Latin church would want to be required to do would be to establish clearly, with “record citations” its many otherwise obscure traditions.


32 posted on 12/30/2007 1:26:16 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis

I don’t see much patristic influence in English evangelicalism. If so, it was as mediated by Calvin. As for Whitby, this was basically a submission of the Celtic Church to the Canterbury Mission. Can’t forget that the first “English” written laws were in Latin.


33 posted on 12/30/2007 1:32:14 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: Kolokotronis

The English Reformation was primarily a top-down revolution which aimed to abolish the popular Christianity of the times and replace it with the imagined Christianity of the Reformers.


34 posted on 12/30/2007 1:39:12 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: RobbyS

“I don’t see much patristic influence in English evangelicalism.”

Read +JC Ryle.


35 posted on 12/30/2007 1:44:52 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: RobbyS

“The English Reformation was primarily a top-down revolution which aimed to abolish the popular Christianity of the times and replace it with the imagined Christianity of the Reformers.”

Oh, I think you are right to a great extent. I think the Canterbury mission of +Augustine was essentially the same thing, replacing a sort of indigenous Christianity whose monasticism was heavily influenced by the Eastern Desert experience with the Western Roman model. Canonically, BTW, what +Augustine did was of course appropriate and correct, the Pope being the unquestioned Patriarch of the West.

But traces of the Eastern Desert are still there! :)


36 posted on 12/30/2007 1:49:35 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis

Exactly!


37 posted on 12/30/2007 1:51:32 PM PST by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: AnalogReigns

Also, Saints David, Paulinus & Teilo...


38 posted on 12/30/2007 4:55:13 PM PST by GoLightly
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To: AnAmericanMother

The Celtic Church is not entriely myth. It centers on the line of bishops descending from St. Patrick of Ireland. When the pagan Saxons took over England, the Church in Ireland/Hiberia and its missions in Scotland/Caledonia were cut off from the rest of Christian Europe. Eventually it would be the only part of Christian western Europe that was not under the control of the Frankish Empire and its senior prelate- the Bishop of Rome.

At the Synod of Whitby, the Celtic bishops and the Roman bishops recognized each others’ validity and agreed to join forces.

The problem of the Celtic Church today is that very little of its liturgy has been preserved. The result is a “black box” church which people with agendae (particularly feminists and enviro-wackos) morph into justifying their own theological innovations. We know as fact that the Celtic Church was monastic and evangelical. Since no contemporary prelate (Rome, Constantinople, etc) is known to have accused them of heresy, we can infer that the Cletic Church was entirely orthodox. Still that does not stop feminists from claiming some “heritage of St Bridget” to support women’s ordination.


39 posted on 12/31/2007 11:10:35 AM PST by bobjam
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To: bobjam

I must admit, I do like this verse, which historic sources (not wackos) call “The Heavenly Banquet” and do associate with the Celtic Saint Bridget:

I would like to have the men of Heaven
in my own house;
with vats of good cheer
laid out for them.

I would like to have the three Marys,
their fame is so great.
I would like people
from every corner of Heaven.

I would like them to be cheerful
in their drinking.
I would like to have Jesus, too,
here amongst them.

I would like a great lake of beer
for the King of Kings.
I would like to be watching Heaven’s family
drinking it through all eternity.


40 posted on 12/31/2007 1:41:56 PM PST by AnalogReigns
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To: bobjam
Well, like the Druids, it's a blank slate (or as you say a 'black box') that people can write whatever they want on.

And what they want is usually some kind of loony agenda . . . .

41 posted on 12/31/2007 4:44:57 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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