Baptisms for the Dead

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[Maelstorm]

Baptisms for the Dead

Jesus Christ taught that baptism is essential to the salvation of all who have lived on earth (see John 3:5). Many people, however, have died without being baptized. Others were baptized without proper authority. Because God is merciful, He has prepared a way for all people to receive the blessings of baptism. By performing proxy baptisms in behalf of those who have died, Church members offer these blessings to deceased ancestors. Individuals can then choose to accept or reject what has been done in their behalf.

[Maelstorm]

I've been doing more research on Mormonism. Interesting stuff. I don't understand why Mitt won't talk in detail about it?

[wastoute]

IBTZ

[XR7]

Jesus taught that you must believe to be saved.
If you die as an unbeliever, you die in your sins.
No baptism by proxy. Sorry.
How else can you interpret the entire Gospel of John?

[wastoute]

If you are really interested, Mormons believe a number of things that aren’t exactly in line with other Christians. One biggie, read the last page of your Bible. See where it says that in effect “this is the end of the book, there isn’t any more coming so don’t look for it” and even more any one who claims to have more is wrong. Here is where Mormons start to deviate significantly from Christianity.

[BlueMoose]

so nothing is to come after Johns writings ?

[ansel12]

It is a mystery, If Mormons were not Christians they would not claim it right?

I’m going in to watch the ‘Rocky Horror’ show.

[carumba]

In 1 Cor. 15:29 Paul references the same work taking place in the early Church established by Christ. That work was restored by Joseph Smith Jr. All of this theology not only needs serious discussion, study, and it also needs prayer. I’ve seen governors, county commisioners, and mayors skewered in the press for suggesting prayer would avail anything. So Mitt walks the tight rope. A man of faith trying not to appear whacky to the unwashed masses.

[chicagolady]

Is this something new for 2008?
:-)

[BipolarBob]

Only by the Grace of God are we saved. Our faith to receive it consummates the deal. Any other teachings like baptism after death is nothing more than salvation by works and that ain’t gonna fly according to my Bible.

[broncobilly]

I guess that eliminates the Nicene Creed and the doctrine of the Trinity also. Right?

A similar statement is found in the OT. I guess that eliminates the NT.

Besides, the last verse of the NT is not the last verse written. Much of the NT wa written after the last book of the assembled books was written.

Don’t give us that “grade school” logic.

[BipolarBob]

so nothing is to come after Johns writings ?

Yeah that's pretty much the deal. Sorry.

[Sir_Ed]

Methodists and Episcopalians claim to be Christians, when their churches push and sanctify abortion and homosexuality.

Takes more than claiming you’re a Christian to actually BE a Christian, and Mormons aren’t Christians.

Their Jesus and their God are not the God and Jesus of the Bible.

Ed

[broncobilly]

Really?

Try reading James 2:17-20.

Faith without works is DEAD. Even the Devils beleive. If you don’t also have works, your faith is dead.

[tang-soo]

Revelation is believed to have been written around 90 AD by John, the last surviving Apostle.

[Gil4]

Revelation was the last book written by John, and he outlive all of the other NT writers by a significant amount. So yes, the last verse of the NY was the last verse written.

[Gil4]

NY

NT.

[tang-soo]

No.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:9-10

It's 100% what Christ has done. Otherwise, his sacrifice was not sufficient and He needed our help - ie good works from us. We are wretched and are not worthy of helping.

[Maelstorm]

I’m really interested. Joseph Smith was a liar and a charlatan of the highest order. Anyone who believes he is a prophet is just not being honest. He didn’t translate plates infallibly given to him by the Angel Moroni(Moron comes from that). He used the King James Old Testament as a template and plagiarized it this has been proven through textual analysis and is not really debatable. He was a phony and the book of Mormon is phony. Setting it beside the bible is apostasy of the religion of Christ and replacing it with a cut and paste fiction put together by a small and petty man not a degree different than a modern conman.

It is truly sad that so many very good people have fallen to such silliness. The church should just excise the disease of Smith and purify itself.

There were others like Smith who did not succeed:
http://archives.nmsu.edu/exhibits/shalam2/shalam7.html

[Prophet in the wilderness]

Yes, and that belief smacks in the face of what the Bible says and is contrary to what the Bible says.

Hebrews 9:27 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)


27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

[Manic_Episode]

Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

[BipolarBob]

Why sure. I believe faith without works is dead. But how much faith can you have when you’re dead? At the time of death your future is set. There is nothing more you can do and no more faith you can exhibit. You are ready for judgment from that point on.

[Prophet in the wilderness]

Also, Mormons need to consided this about what the Bible says

Hebrews 9:27 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)


27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

Because, at its heart, Mormonism is a weird religion, from Moroni's golden tablets and Joseph Smith's translating goggles, through the LDS' history of polygamy, right down to the magic underwear.

A good friend of mine down in North Carolina checked out LDS a few years ago. He went to one of their services and found that it was utter chaos. Several church members showed up on his door step soon afterward, and then helped themselves to his kitchen, where they started going through his refrigerator to pull out any food or drink items that had caffeine or other additives in them. Needless to say, he did not appreciate this home invasion and quickly showed them the door. He ended up joining the Catholic Church instead.

Another friend of mine's mother-in-law hooked up with the local LDS church in her community, which then proceeded to isolate her from her family and basically rob her blind through excessive tithing. I think that she's still in their clutches.

Regardless, Mormonism is just strange and a LOT of folks, especially down South in Baptist country, will have a hard time swallowing Romney if he ends up being the GOP candidate.

[broncobilly]

I know an even greater shocker.
Joseph Smith acutually used words and expressions found in Websters Dictionery that was clearly written many years after the Book of Mormon was supposed to have been written.

Oh. How can we explain it?

Oh. What are we going to do?

[Gil4]

Faith is the means to salvation. Good works are the result of salvation. if your “faith” doesn’t result in good works, it is a fraud.

See Ephesians 2:8-10 for an explanation of the the relationship between faith and works.

[pawdoggie]

I’m really interested. Joseph Smith was a liar and a charlatan of the highest order.

We can tell it's your interest in theology, and not an animus against a particular presidential candidate that's motivating your intense research. While you're at it, why don't you examine Christian Scientists and Jehovah's Witnesses as well? And don't forget the Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs and B'Hai as well. As good conservatives, it's our duty to alienate as many people of faith as possible.

BTW, did you know that Evangelical Huckleberrys share something in common with the Mormons? They both believe that Jesus drank grape juice instead of wine. How silly, and how heretical.

[broncobilly]

Sorry. That is not what Biblical scholars tell us.
The Book of Revelation was completed long before many of the books of the NT were written.

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

No, actually, the current thinking on the subject is that John of Patmos was not the same John of the Gospels. There are lots of reasons for this, primarily in style and how Revelation is put together, in comparison with John’s Gospel. Kinda like the difference in writing styles between Tom Clancy and Steven King.

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

The church should just excise the disease of Smith and purify itself.

Never going to happen since LDS has accumulated far too much wealth and power over the years.

[broncobilly]

Yes. We are saved by grace. But just as faith doesn’t save us, so also our works don’t save us. However, they can be required of us before God saves us by grace.

[Prophet in the wilderness]

Ephesians 2 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)

Ephesians 2 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.



Galatians 3 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)

Galatians 3

Justification by Faith

1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,[a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you[b] as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—
6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[c]
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[d]
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

The Law Brings a Curse

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[e]
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[f]
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[g
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[h]),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The Changeless Promise

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”[i]who is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ,[j] that it should make the promise of no effect.
18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Purpose of the Law

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Sons and Heirs

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[broncobilly]

Do you believe great men who never heard the gospel can be saved? What about Buddha, for example.

[broncobilly]

Well we put up with Jimmy and Bubba the Baptists and George the MNethodist. So maybe you in the South can grow up and join the rest of the world and stop acting like spoiled political brats.

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

The Book of Revelation was completed long before many of the books of the NT were written.

You're wrong dude. There are several specific passages in Revelation that refer to Emperor Nero's persecutions of Christians, setting the time frame of John the Revelator's exile to Patmos in the AD 64-68 time frame. The Pauline Epistles, of course, were written before AD 64, when Paul was probably beheaded by the Romans, again under Nero. by then, the Gospels had already been written and were circulating within the Christian underground.

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

So maybe you in the South can grow up and join the rest of the world and stop acting like spoiled political brats.

Nice. Is your tantrum over now, or do you want whine some more while the rest of us here on this thread discuss some historical and theological facts about Mormonism?

[wastoute]

ETOH deserves its’ own thread. Evangelicals IMHO tred perilously close to Pharasaical thought with their temperance. To avoid drunkenness which is a sin by not drinking ETOH at all sort of follows that Pharisaical tradition of “not sinning by not even getting close”.

Stick with the course on this thread, what is it that Mormons believe? We probably can’t get any knowledgeable Mormons to come in a this point, though.

[broncobilly]

Get real.
Sometimes an author writes in poetry and sometimes in prose, Isaiah for example.
Sometimes a writer uses narative, sometimes apocalyptic, metaphorical style, Daniel, for example.

[carumba]

I’m really interested. Joseph Smith was a liar and a charlatan of the highest order. Anyone who believes he is a prophet is just not being honest. He didn’t translate plates infallibly given to him by the Angel Moroni(Moron comes from that). He used the King James Old Testament as a template and plagiarized it this has been proven through textual analysis and is not really debatable. He was a phony and the book of Mormon is phony. Setting it beside the bible is apostasy of the religion of Christ and replacing it with a cut and paste fiction put together by a small and petty man not a degree different than a modern conman.

This is bigotry. Plain and simple. Joseph Smith was a prophet. He left ample evidence of his divine calling. The Book of Mormon is one of the most important books of our time. Moroni 10:4 allows each and every honest investigator a chance to take the question to God himself and seek an answer. God is the author of all truth. If you will not ask of God but insist on forming opinions based on bias and traditions then you will continue to grope blindly. Watch out for the ditch.

[broncobilly]

OK You have faith. You are saved. Now you go out and commit sin, say adultery. Are you still saved?

[freeplancer]

You are a liar. Real LDS members would never do any of that crap you just peddled and the actual church would never allow such behavior by any of their true representatives. I hope you feel better with your fantasy out of the way and your down right lies. Welcome to FR newbie and keep on being such a positive force.

[Maelstorm]

I can always hope. :-) They may get far more attention than they ever bargained for if Romney wins the nomination. The truth is far more troubling than any slander or libel possible. They are good people but good people can be mistaken. Do they not think that the Democrats and the media will make a point of where the majority of Romney’s funding is coming from? He will feel more like Jesus Christ by they time they quit pounding nails into him. They are going to turn him into the John Kerry of the Republican party.

[Prophet in the wilderness]

Why don’t you ask GOD that question , not me, I didn’t write the rules.

[fortheDeclaration]

I guess that eliminates the Nicene Creed and the doctrine of the Trinity also. Right?

No, the Doctrine of the Trinity is found in the Bible, although that word is not used.

A similar statement is found in the OT. I guess that eliminates the NT. Besides, the last verse of the NT is not the last verse written. Much of the NT wa written after the last book of the assembled books was written.

No, the Book of Revelation was the final book written, in 96 AD

But all books that made it into the NT Canon had to be from Apostles or those closly associated with an Apostle.

And an Apostle had to have seen the Resurrected Christ and have the signs of the Apostle.

[ASA Vet]

CINO Place marker

[Gil4]

Book / Approximate Writing Date
James A.D. 44–49
Galatians A.D. 49–50
Matthew A.D. 50–60
Mark A.D. 50–60
1 Thessalonians A.D. 51
2 Thessalonians A.D. 51–52
1 Corinthians A.D. 55
2 Corinthians A.D. 55–56
Romans A.D. 56
Luke A.D. 60–61
Ephesians A.D. 60–62
Philippians A.D. 60–62
Colossians A.D. 60–62
Philemon A.D. 60–62
Acts A.D. 62
1 Timothy A.D. 62–64
Titus A.D. 62–64
1 Peter A.D. 64–65
2 Timothy A.D. 66–67
2 Peter A.D. 67–68
Hebrews A.D. 67–69
Jude A.D. 68–70
John A.D. 80–90
1 John A.D. 90–95
2 John A.D. 90–95
3 John A.D. 90–95
Revelation A.D. 94–96

If you’d like to argue specific books or dates, have at it and be specific.

[Virginia Ridgerunner]

Well, funny that you mention Isaiah, since current scholarship pretty much has determined that his book was in fact written by multiple authors. As for the book of Daniel, the book of Revelation was based heavily upon it as a source, with much of the same imagery and literary style.

Regardless, there is very solid evidence that John of Patmos was NOT St. John the Divine.

[fortheDeclaration]

Takes more than claiming you’re a Christian to actually BE a Christian, and Mormons aren’t Christians. Their Jesus and their God are not the God and Jesus of the Bible.

Amen.

[fortheDeclaration]

Really? Try reading James 2:17-20. Faith without works is DEAD. Even the Devils beleive. If you don’t also have works, your faith is dead.

Yes, works show your faith, but they do nothing in regards to your salvation.

Try reading Eph. 2:8-9,

For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

See also Rom.4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

[wastoute]

Actually, yes. We are all human. There has been but one perfect human and he was crucified. David was a “man after God’s own heart” yet even so he committed adultery and murder to cover his adultery. Did God love him less for it? Aparrently not. The Bible is full of biographies of humans who have sinned, but risen above that sin to serve in crucial ways. Grace elevates us to serve in spite of our sin and God can even use our sin to achieve his purpose. Grace alone is sufficient.

The real answer to this question is what was in your heart when you made a profession of faith? Was that profession just a sham to further some selfish purpose? Peter warns against “wolves” who profess but only want to devour. So if one made a profession of faith as a means to adultery, no, one is not saved.