http://www.amazon.com/Twelve-Ordinary-Men-Disciples-Greatness/dp/0785288244/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199880056&sr=1-1
5 SOLAS!
Posted on 01/09/2008 3:22:10 AM PST by Gamecock
For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. (Titus 1:7-9)
I remember well the night the membership of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church considered my calling to be an elder amongst them. I remember contemplating the qualifications of an elder found in the Pastoral epistles, and, as I believe is proper, trembling at them. I do not believe any elder in his right mind and God-tuned heart can look at those qualifications and not see areas in need of improvement and growth. Thankfully, absolute perfection of sanctification is not the standard of the eldership, and God uses imperfect men in the service of His people.
Yet, He gives standards for a reason. When these standards are ignored, Christ, and His Church, suffer. Not only are the people who are subjected to unqualified elders hurt by the resultant imbalanced or impoverished ministry, but the wider body is hurt when those without the qualifications of eldership pretend to do what they have not been called to do. The world loves to put such men forward, place them in the spotlight, and use them as a means of ridiculing the Christian faith.
Joel Osteen at times seems to me like a deer caught in the headlights. Quiet and purposefully naive, Osteen's wild popularity is truly a testament to the condition of the superficially religious in America. His motivational speaking tickles the ears of the not-really-convicted-of-sin. He purposefully avoids entire vistas of God's truth, resulting in a lopsided, sugary-sweet "gospel" that has next to nothing to do with God's glory or Christ's atonement, and everything to do with self-improvement. It is not even half a gospel---it is no gospel at all, and that is the reason why thousands flock to feed upon it and millions of others watch it on TV. It has no holy God, no divine wrath, no need for atonement, no repentance, no death to self---it is the polar opposite, as it is all about me, me, and me. Osteen excuses this in numerous ways, saying he doesn't want to "beat people down" (i.e., he doesn't want to see their self-righteousness crushed) but wants to lift them up (there is no being lifted up until one has fallen at the feet of the cross). He likewise uses his complete lack of biblical training and knowledge as a shield against the observation that he does not preach the whole counsel of God.
Yet clearly, Osteen is the poster-preacher of post-evangelicalism. You see his face in every airport bookshop, and when the media wishes to get a "Christian" response, the microphone is offered to him. But, because he is not qualified for the position he holds (see Titus 1:9 above for the divine word on the subject), he brings embarrassment to the cause of Christ each time he is given these opportunities. His theological face-plant on the Larry King Show is well known. And yesterday, on Fox News Sunday, Osteen once again demonstrated that there is a reason why the Holy Spirit gifts elders so that they are able to exhort in sound doctrine and refute those who contradict. Here is the exchange:
WALLACE: And what about Mitt Romney? And I've got to ask you the question, because it is a question whether it should be or not in this campaign, is a Mormon a true Christian?
OSTEEN: Well, in my mind they are. Mitt Romney has said that he believes in Christ as his savior, and that's what I believe, so, you know, I'm not the one to judge the little details of it. So I believe they are.
And so, you know, Mitt Romney seems like a man of character and integrity to me, and I don't think he would - anything would stop me from voting for him if that's what I felt like.
WALLACE: So, for instance, when people start talking about Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, and the golden tablets in upstate New York, and God assumes the shape of a man, do you not get hung up in those theological issues?
OSTEEN: I probably don't get hung up in them because I haven't really studied them or thought about them. And you know, I just try to let God be the judge of that. I mean, I don't know.
I certainly can't say that I agree with everything that I've heard about it, but from what I've heard from Mitt, when he says that Christ is his savior, to me that's a common bond.
Just as the Mormon Church showed itself ashamed of its own theology in its half-responses to Fox News last week, so here Osteen shows himself either willfully ignorant of the most basic aspects of the Christian faith and how they are definitional thereof, or, worse, ashamed of those teachings to the point of being unwilling to look into that camera and say, "No, Mormonism is not Christianity." Of course, that would require him to then give a reason for that statement, and sadly, I have no firm reason for believing he would be capable of doing so, let alone desire to do so. But in any case, the world has once again seen a man praised and lauded in post-evangelicalism appear before their eyes and loudly proclaim, "What we believe doesn't matter. God hasn't spoken with clarity. He doesn't care about His own glory. He just wants you to be happy in your sin!" It truly makes me tremble to think that someday God will judge those who stand before His people and who handle the Word of God. If judgment begins with the house of the Lord....
Yes, once again, theology matters.
Addition/Update:
I wanted to add a comment on the presentation of Osteen. If you read the transcript, or listen to the interview, you hear "I don't know if I know exactly" and similiar phraseology often; in fact, he says "I think" forty-two times in this one interview. He does not say "God says" or "Scripture teaches" or "it is written" or any of those "unfriendly" kinds of things. All we get is Osteen's feelings, Osteen's opinions. He does not speak as an ambassador of Christ. There is no authority in his words.
YBPDLNPL Ping
Read Isaiah 43. The “church which is His body” is coming into that soon. And when Christ’s magnificent bride appears, all this impart, watered down gospel is going to disappear faster than you can say “thank you Jesus!”.
It always intrigued me how the so-called "pastoral" epistles were written to Timothy and Titus, who were apostles. Goofy human tradition...
http://www.amazon.com/Twelve-Ordinary-Men-Disciples-Greatness/dp/0785288244/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199880056&sr=1-1
5 SOLAS!
This conversation was exactly that held on FR a few weeks ago.
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Get up-close and personal with apostles Paul, Peter, James and John and learn of their personal struggles. Understand the circumstances behind each inspired letter they penned. Watch the chaotic swirl of first-century people and events fall into place before your very eyes. Discover what Paul's "thorn in the flesh" really was. Learn what happened to all the apostles after the book of Acts was finished. Be ushered into the living, breathing atmosphere of the first century and uncover the hidden riches found in God's Word.
The book includes the following:
T&T needed advice on how to be better pastors.
They weren’t pastors.
Paul trained them to plant churches.
Pastors, as we know them, weren’t around until Luther, and are a protestant derivation of the priesthood.
To repeat myself, Mohler wrote an article saying that Mormons could be called “nontraditonal Christians”.
A more accurate phrase would be “counterfeit Christians”. Yesterday, I thought of several terms as possibilities, and that was the best one I could think of.
It is an accurate term, and it is also a charitable word to use, a word that the prophet Nathan might use in order to be both accurate and motivational.
Good post. Thanks.
Pastor-teachers are those with a spiritual gift of communication of the Word to believers as discerned within 1st Corinthians, Chapter 12.
I agree that there are many who call themselves ‘pastors’, who lack the spiritual gift, but His provision of the spiritual gift and of pastor-teachers with that gift remains.
Can you give me those verses? thx
I spent a lot of time on the #prosapologian (James R White and company) chat channel on star link net last night. What a great group! They have a second channel that’s more discussion oriented called #apologetics which I will have to lurk on too (not like I could contribute much intelligent there, probably but I can learn).
Gonna have to become a regular I think! I miss doing that with like minded folks. (although years ago all I did was chat with people on a channel about a TV show called Nowhere Man and then later on the Freerepublic chat channel... wonder if that’s still goin?)
Jeremiah 50:6
Acts 20:29
John 10:11-13
Jeremiah 23:1-4
Jeremiah 10:21
Jeremiah 25:34-38
Ezekiel 34:2-10
Ezekiel 34:11-24
to name a few.
pastor etymology
pastor (n.) Look up pastor at Dictionary.com
1242, “shepherd,” also “spiritual guide, shepherd of souls” (1377), from O.Fr. pastur “herdsman, shepherd” (12c.), from L. pastorem (nom. pastor) “shepherd,” from pastus, pp. of pascere “to lead to pasture, graze,” from PIE base *pa- “to tend, keep, pasture, feed, guard” (see food). The spiritual sense was in Church L. (cf. Gregory’s “Cura Pastoralis”). The verb in the Christian sense is from 1872.
Oh, I agree with the function of pastoral ministry. I just don’t see this preofessional job called ‘pastoring a church’ delineated in the Bible. That’s what I’m trying to find.
I don't like the idea of professional clergy either. There are lots of good ones. But it's a calling, not a career. I was listening to Bob DeWaay talk about this a while back in a sermon he preached too.
I think the verse they like to use is 1 Tim 5:17-19.
oops that should be 17-18
There’s also 1 Cor 9:7-9. But back to my original point, Paul is talking about church planters as full time ministers- not this clergy abomination we have today.
It’s the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, in my opinion. But ‘pastors’ freak out when you start asking questions like this. It threatens their paycheck.
I think I understand what you mean...
I guess paying a pastor is not bad but... frankly the pastor shouldn’t be thinking of it as a career. He shouldn’t be in it for monetary gain or success. Of course, the word faith preachers teach the exact opposite. (go figure) but even those who can see through the falsehood of the WOrd Faith movement still focus on it as a career and focus on worldly standards of success, measured with numbers. Money is just one part of that whole error.
Nor do you find the term Trinity. It's a concept we have developed a word for.
A pastor should have the fulltime calling to shepherd the flock.
I realize that is not always possible, but that is the ideal.
Most PCA pastors, or more specifically teaching elders, spend 15-20 hours a week on sermon preparation. Between that, counseling, teaching, hospital visitation, etc will work far more than 40 hours a week in the church.
If he is in the full time ministry he should be compensated appropriately. What is appropriate? In churches I have been a member of it is deemed to live in a manner consistent with that of the congregation. No more, no less.
Excellent discussion about a touchy and important topic. Might I submit for your edification a very thought-provoking book? Please check out - http://www.antonbosch.com/books.html with my observations about it here - http://menofhonorministry.org/Discipleship/Building_Blocks.htm
While man rarely executes the Biblical offices or commands of the Lord correctly, that doesn’t mean He has provided guidance for us.
Ephesians 4:7 - 16 shows us why He gave the churches pastors. That some who claim to be such fail is obvious to all but the spiritually dead.
“But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.”
Please take me off the Olsteen and Warren thread ping list.
The contentiousness over such grieves my spirit almost as much as the rock throwing.
If God doesn’t make His perspective clearer, more emphatically, on such issues . . . then my poor words are merely a light fog against a forest fire.
They are big boys. If God is not their defense in all meaningful ways and areas . . . nothing else matters anyway.
I just no longer have the heart to fill my role on such threads. You’re welcome to consider that a victory, if you wish.
There is a waiting is to get on so your departure will open a slot for someone else.
LOL.
The bible begs to differ.
No, they weren't. Paul describes them both as his spiritual children. (1 Timothy 1:2, Titus 1:4). There were 14 men who could claim the title of apostle - the 12 called by Christ during his ministry, the replacement for Judas, and Paul, called on the road to Damascus.
Ever wonder if there's a connection between the total silence about Matthias after he was selected & the fact that it was done before the Apostles received the Holy Spirit?
As to Timothy and Titus, I'm on the fence, since the lists naming the forty (or forty two) weren't put together until centuries after they'd been sent forth by Jesus.
It's fairly clear to me from what Paul writes that T & T would not have been discipled by Jesus, but were rather discipled by Paul. Thus, there is no chance that they were among the 40. (Indeed, at that point, those were probably all Jews, rather than having Greeks among them. And we know Titus was a Greek.)
Ever wonder if there's a connection between the total silence about Matthias
Yes, a case could be made that the election of Matthias was a work of man, and not of Christ, and that Paul was the chosen replacement. On the other hand, one of the extra-Biblical accounts of him may be true. I figure that's one of the things we'll find out in Heaven.
Hold on- I said ‘pastors as we know them’. Like I stated, I believe in pastoral ministry. However, the profession that has turned into ‘being a pastor’ isn’t in the Bible. I don’t see a single Biblical figure in the NT that fits that description.
only 14? the 12 and Paul and Matthias, I presume? Considew this list:
What about Barnabas (acts 14:14)
James the Lord’s brother? (gal 1:19)
Epaphras, aka Epaphroditus (Col. 1:7, who planted the Colosse church)
Andronicus and Junia (rom 16:7)
I Thes. 2:6 indicates that all who were present in Paul’s company were considered Apostles.
In fact, Paul’s 3 year stay in Ephesus, teaching daily at the hall of Tyrranus, was spent mentoring young church planters (apostles) like Timothy, Titus, Aristarchus, Gaius, Secundus, Sopater, and several others that I can’t remember right now.
As an aside, this doctrine that apostles don’t exist anymore is largely due to John Darby, probably responsible for more false doctrine in the church today than anyone else in the last 200 years.
In the passage about muzzling the ox, Paul talks about a full time occupation for preaching.
No, church planting. Huge difference.
Origin of ‘Pastor’ derived from ‘shepherds.’
Pastors should be shepherds of the flock.
See post 17 and 35.
oops. feeling embarrassed.
I’ll read ALL of them now...
Many consider Jude and James to be apostles (and thus worthy of inclusion in the NT) because they personally followed Christ during his lifetime and witnessed the resurrected Jesus. When I think apostle, though, I'm generally thinking the 14 like you mention.
correction to that previous post - James knew Christ in his lifetime (being his brother). He was not a “follower” in the sense that he believed in him, because as we all know James was not a believer until Jesus’ resurrection.
Thanks, I was searching for that verse and didn’t remember where I had read it last.
Jude ("Judas, not the Iscariot", aka "Thaddeus") and James "the Less" were among the Twelve.
Man, y’all are wearin’ Joel Osteen out.
I do not believe these are the same people. I believe both James and Jude the NT authors were half brothers of Jesus and neither were of the 12. I understand this is an area where reasonable people can disagree and well informed, good men and women of God have marshalled arguments on both sides.
All three persons of the Godhead are involved in the Issuance of spiritual gifts.
Mathias, IMHO, was selected by men, not by Christ, therefore wouldn’t be considered so gifted with the spiritual gift of apostleship.
Heb 2:4 relates to Gof the Father as source of our election and predestined spiritual gifts from eternity past.
Eph 4:7 indicates all spiritual gifts were sourced from Christ.
1stCor 12:11 tells us of the spiritual gifts are all given by th will of God th Holy Spirit.
Mathias didn’t qualify. All of the apostles were chosen by and saw Christ. Mathias was chosen and voted in by the other apostles when Judas was absent, believing they didn’t need God to make that choice. God doesn’t need man to step in to make His choices.
The spiritual gift of apostle implies a work by each person of the Godhead, as with all spiritual gifts to believers today.
God the Father is the source of those gifts. By His sovereignty they had been predestined from eternity past and we were elect who receive them; Heb 2:4.
Heb 2:4
(4) God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
God the Son is our source of spiritual gifts as per Eph 4:7.
Eph 4:7
(7) But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
God the Holy Spirit gives us the spiritual gifts as He wills, 1Cor12:11
1Co 12:11
(11) But all these worketh that one and the self same Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
The word for 'pastors' in that verse is translated as shephard in 38 other verses. It's the same root word used when Peter tells the elders to 'shepard' the sheep. There is no 'pastor' position.
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