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Posted on 01/11/2008 5:12:12 AM PST by SJackson
By Mark D. Tooley Like most Protestants, Methodists honor but do not typically pray to the Virgin Mary. But an official with the United Methodist lobby office in Washington, D.C., apparently makes an exception for the "sassy sister savior" when she is redefined to embody the Religious Left's political ideals: a Mary socialist. Neal Christie, who is the Sassy sister-savior, The Virgin Mary of the Gospels left no recorded remarks about the Roman Empire's less than sterling human rights record. But she evidently has very strong views about the Bush Administration's "torture" policies, among many other issues dear to the Religious Left. Christie's prayer continued: Pacing the perimeter of Manger Square, What are all those "refugee camps" around Manger Square? Probably they belong to persecuted Palestinians, who after 60 years still supposedly have no place to go. Why are these victims still homeless? Is it because the Arab world never wanted to resettle them, preferring instead to showcase them as a living argument against Israel's existence? No, the liberationist Virgin Mary is instead setting herself against the "Empire" and its "client states," who are the real authors of global suffering. No doubt on bended knee on Capitol Hill, Christie kept praying: So when today's bloated Herods run wild like malaria, Famously, another more prominent Religious Left spokesman Jesse Jackson compared King Herod to then-Vice President Dan Quayle at the 1992 Democratic Convention. But Christie seemed to liken the infanticidal puppet of Rome more broadly to America as global hegemon: corrupt, predatory, and militaristic. The litany of his prayer went on: When Herod makes the White House and Congress a backroom playhouse; Who knew that the Virgin Mary was so very politically outspoken?! Her recorded words in Scripture are largely confined to thanking God for her role in the Incarnation. Millions of Christians frequently recite her words of praise towards the Almighty: My soul doth magnify the Lord. But in the Religious Left version of Mary's concerns, the mother of Jesus is more concerned about President Bush's veto of proposed enlargements in the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP). The congressionally approved increases would have extended federal subsidies of medical coverage to children of families making $80,000 a year. But everyone knows that the Virgin Mary favors socialized medicine and views increases in SCHIP as an important incremental step. After all, Mary did exclaim in her sacred exhalation: He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. Traditional believers of course understand the "He" of this Scripture as God. But the Religious Left often instead prefers to think of Big Government, and not the Lord, as the ultimate dispenser of justice and mercy. Perhaps Christie should have saved himself the trouble of addressing Mary and instead prayed directly to a divine personificaton of The Welfare State. The Virgin Mary of Scripture and history, who witnessed her son's unjust execution by the state, could indeed have issued a seering political critique of the rulers of her day. Instead, she was more concerned about the transcendent and the eternal, joining with her son's disciples to perpetuate a Gospel of salvation and holiness, not intense political activism. In vivid contrast, the Religious Left always strains to reduce Christianity down to a lobby campaign for the domestic statist causes du jour. And its "prophetic" international stances routinely condemn America and its allies but almost never cite genuine perpetrators of torture and oppression. Maybe the Religious Left should ponder Mary's authentic words: He hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. Mark D. Tooley directs the United Methodist committee at the Institute on Religion and Democracy. |
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Catholic ping.
Hijacking the Blessed Mother, not a good idea. :(
Methodist leadership seems to leave few stones unturned in discovering ways to twist Christianity into something more “hip”. This ought to full up those empty pews.
Not.
The BVM naked in our cathedral? Who knew?
Personally, I would choose water boarding over crucifixion ever single time.
Garde la Foi, mes amis! Nous nous sommes les sauveurs de la République! Maintenant et Toujours!
(Keep the Faith, my friends! We are the saviors of the Republic! Now and Forever!)
LonePalm, le Républicain du verre cassé (The Broken Glass Republican)
Well said. It is remarkable that the UMC continues to exist as a substantial institution. Membership decreases every year. Research indicates that the cause is anti-Biblicism in its seminaries. Yet the leadership says, “This cannot be. We must redouble our efforts to secularize our once great movement.”
There is no courage among its clergy who are cowed by the rigid authoritarianism of the Council of Bishops. It’s missionary zeal is blighted by avowed Marxists at the Board of Global Missions on Riverside Drive. Its theology most closely resembles the Unitarians of the 60’s.
The church of my father has spurned me and taken up with the whore of Babylon.
What? Have the Methodists been taken over by 14-year-old hip-hop “artists” with attention deficit disorder?
As a catholic, this always urks me. As catholics, we ask Mary to pray with us and for us! We ask her to intercede on our behalf.
Today's lie of the day.
Saints preserve us...seriously.
Wait! That sure sounds like abortion to me!
Are they protesting the disposal of the remains of thousands of murdered infants in the solid waste management facility?
Must be an oversight. Surely the real Mary, the real Jewish Mother, is pro-life, but this makeshift-messiah "sassy sister savior" would be pro-choice. I assume.
Also, Mary was a virgin when she bore the Messiah. How does that play with the Feminists?
Funny, when I go through the Hail mary, I do not recall any “sassiness” nor any feminist codswollop.
Hail mary = Hail Mary
Sorry!
What is it with leftists and bad poetry?
Speaking of such - from http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html
COMPARING CATHOLIC TEACHINGS ABOUT MARY
WITH MODERN GODDESS WORSHIP
Goddess worship is not ancient history. It is going on today. It is practiced in Wicca and a variety of modern pagan religions. (Wicca is a religion based on witchcraft. It involves goddess worship, rituals and spells.)
The credibility of goddess worship has been increased through its acceptance by university professors and its incorporation into textbooks. Wiccan doctrines are being promoted in publicly funded, accredited colleges and universities. Nursing school textbooks are overtly promoting goddess worship, including textbooks written by the National League for Nursing (an accrediting agency for nursing schools). (Note 16)
In the following table, I will compare Catholicism’s version of Mary with the goddess who is worshiped by Wiccans and modern pagans. My reason for doing this is that Wiccans and modern pagans live in modern America. If I compared Catholic doctrine about Mary with the goddess worship of ancient civilizations, it would seem remote and far removed from the real world. It would seem like a legend instead of real life.
As we will see later in this article. Overt goddess worship has infiltrated a number of main-line Protestant denominations. There have been some conferences in which Catholics and representatives of various Protestant groups worshiped the goddess Sophia and openly said that Jesus Christ is irrelevant. (Later in this article I will give some detailed information about those conferences, along with Internet addresses of articles about them.)
All Christian groups need to guard against goddess worship. According to the Bible, God’s people are not supposed to worship any other deities. The Old Testament prophets often rebuked the people of Israel for worshiping “foreign gods.” The people who worshiped the goddess Sophia at those conferences were doing the same kind of thing that the ancient Israelites did. They claimed to be God’s people, but they were worshiping a “foreign god.” (In this case, a goddess rather than a god.)
I am a Methodist and this bothers me, but I don’t see evidence of this in my church.
What is really disturbing is that some of my offerings are probably going to support this crap.
Nonsense!Prove it?
The idiotic article you posted is from a person who does not even exist-Mary Ann Collins
In any event,whoever wrote it is not very bright and in the spirit of the evil.NOT Christ!
Where in the world is Mary Ann Collins?
from...
http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=1799
What is unusual is that Mary Ann Collins cannot be located other than on her web site. She states on her web site that her father and pastor cautioned her not to give any personal information. Collins obeyed them with such zeal that many Catholics and Protestants alike now question whether she exists at all or is actually a creation devised by a person or people to credibly spread disinformation about the Catholic Church. In this information age it is fascinating to find someone about which there is no concrete information. No one has admitted ever knowing or seeing her. No one knows where she lives or what she does for a living. She has never given an interview, including anything as innocuous as speaking at a local church to promote her discoveries or books. This is a level of privacy not achieved even by Jack Chick, a famous and notoriously reclusive distributor of anti-Catholic materials.
If you researched your history you would find that the Catholic Early Church Fathers like Blessed Saint Irenaues spoke out against sophia worship.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103130.htm
I hope you’re not trying to compair the goddess sophia to Our Blessed Mother?
Meant to ping you to post 20
My apologies. I should have pointed out the following instead, from the same page:
DEVOTION TO MARY
If you want to see what a person’s real priorities are, then watch what they do when their life, or the life of a loved one, is in danger. When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over: “Mary, my mother!” Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her. (Note 4)
Jesus said, “[W]here your treasure is there will your heart be also.” (Luke 12:34) Some statues of Mary have real crowns made of gold. The web sites listed in the Notes show pictures of statues of Our Lady of Fatima and Our Lady of Lourdes wearing crowns. (Note 5) The statues in the pictures are replicas, and their crowns are ceramic and painted gold. But the crowns on the original statues at Fatima and Lourdes are real crowns made of real gold.
Vast sums of money are spent on jeweled crowns and lavish clothing for some special statues of Mary. (You can see pictures of them in the Catholic devotional book, “Miraculous Images of Our Lady.”) In the Philippines, there is a statue of Our Lady of the Rosary that is nearly 5 feet high. It wears a crown of gold studded with diamonds, rubies, and other gems. There is a large halo like a sunburst behind its head, made of gold and diamonds. In Spain, a statue of Our Lady of the Forsaken has elegant gowns and mantles decorated with gold and jewels. It has a large collection of jewels, including $50,000 worth of jewels that are a gift from Queen Isabella II. Our Lady of Guadalupe is best known for a painting in Mexico, but there is also a statue in Spain that wears gold and jewels. It has a sunburst headdress with 30,000 jewels. In Germany, a statue of Our Lady of Alotting has a gold crown covered with rubies, emeralds, sapphires, and diamonds. It wears a necklace of pearls and rubies, and a gown that is decorated with gold, pearls, diamonds, emeralds, and rubies. The statue is in a shrine with a silver altar and walls that are decorated with silver. In Spain, a statue of Our Lady of the Pillar wears clothing decorated with gold and jewels, and a large gold crown covered with jewels. There is a sunburst (halo) behind the statue with a diameter that is larger than the height of the statue. A full-color, close-up picture of the crown and sunburst shows that they are covered with diamonds, emeralds, and rubies. (There are so many jewels that I can’t see the gold underneath them.) On the wall behind the statue are 148 gold stars; 80 of them are set with jewels. Even paintings of Mary can wear jewels. In Russia, there is a painting of Our Lady of Kazan that is covered with a rizza (a structure of gold that covers the entire painting except for the faces of Mary and baby Jesus). This rizza has more than 1,000 diamonds, rubies, pearls, and sapphires on it. (Note 6)
In Sabana Grande, Puerto Rico, preparations are underway to construct a huge statue of Our Lady of the Rosary. Inside the base of the statue there will be chapels, conference rooms, apartments, a food court, and radio and TV stations. There will also be observation decks. This statue will be part of a 500-acre “Mystical City” complex. According to an article in “Caribbean Business,” this statue “will top at 1,500 feet”. According to an article by the Associated Press, the statue will be 305 feet high. (Note 7) The discrepancy in numbers can be explained by looking at the Statue of Liberty, which is a 151 foot statue on top of a 154 foot base. Some sources say that the Statue of Liberty is 305 feet high (which includes the height of the base) and some say that it is 151 feet high (which is the height of the actual statue). What we probably have in Sabana Grande is a 305 foot statue with a 1,200 foot base.
I have personally participated in American processions which honored Mary. We walked through the streets following a statue of Mary which was carried on a platform, high up where it was clearly visible. We sang songs in Mary’s honor. We prayed rosaries and other prayers to her. These were small processions. At Fatima, Portugal, crowds of over a million people gather on the anniversary of the apparition of Our Lady of Fatima. The celebration includes a procession of a million people following a statue of Mary and singing her praises. (Note 8)
One popular prayer in Mary’s honor is the “Hail Holy Queen,” which is known in Latin as the “Salve Regina”. It is traditionally included as part of praying the rosary.
For Catholics who are reading this, please try to overcome your familiarity with this text and really look at the words. Doesn’t this sound like worship?
“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”
Alfonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) was a principal proponent of the Marianist Movement, which glorifies Mary. He wrote a book entitled “The Glories of Mary” which is famous, influential and widely read. In this book, de Liguori says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice. De Liguori said that people should pray to Mary as a mediator and look to her as an object of trust for answered prayer. The book even says that there is no salvation outside of Mary. Some people suggest that these views are extreme and not representative of Catholic Church teaching. However, instead of silencing de Liguori as a heretic, the Catholic Church canonized him as a saint and declared him to be a “doctor of the Church” (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority). Furthermore, his book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes. (Note 9)
Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that “[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind.” (Note 10) Pope Pius IX said: “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.” (Note 11)
A lay movement called “Vox Populi” (”Voice of the People”) gathers signed petitions to send to the Pope, seeking to have him officially declare that Mary is Co-Redemptrix. Over six million signatures have been sent to him, representing 138 countries and all seven continents. This doctrine is supported by over 40 cardinals and 600 bishops worldwide. (Note 12)
The Catholic Church exalts Mary as an idealized, larger-than-life, perfect mother. However, the Bible shows that at one point Mary misunderstood Jesus’ calling to the point that she thought He was insane and she tried to prevent Him from doing what God wanted Him to do. Look at Mark 3:20-34.
“And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.’” (Mark 3:20-21)
The New International Version says “His family”. The New King James Version says “His own people.” The King James Version says “his friends”. According to “Strong’s Greek/Hebrew Dictionary,” the Greek word has a variety of meanings, including “kinsmen”. However, we don’t have to depend on the exact meaning of the word here because it will be made clear in verse 31. “Strong’s” defines “lay hold on” as “to use strength, i.e. seize or retain”. It defines “beside himself” as “become astounded, insane”.
Verses 22 through 30 describe a confrontation between Jesus and the scribes. Then we get back to what is happening with the people who thought that Jesus was out of His mind and were so concerned that they were coming to “lay hold on him” (seize him).
“There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him calling him. And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.” (Mark 3:31-35)
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES ABOUT MARY
COMPARED WITH WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS
My sources for this section are the Bible and the “Catechism of the Catholic Church,” which has numbered paragraphs. For the sake of simplicity and brevity, I will just say “Catechism” plus the number of the paragraph(s). For example, “’Catechism’ 411, 493” means “’Catechism of the Catholic Church,’ paragraphs numbered 411 and 493”.
For each doctrinal category, I will indicate the Catholic doctrine, followed by the appropriate references from the “Catechism”. I will follow this with quotations from the Bible which relate to the doctrine. The last book in the Bible is called “The Book of Revelation” in Protestant Bibles and “The Apocalypse” in Catholic Bibles. I will refer to it as “Revelation”.
IMMACULATE CONCEPTION — Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. (”Catechism” 490-492).
In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour”. Mary knew that she needed a savior.
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was first introduced by a heretic (a man whose teachings were officially declared to be contrary to Church doctrine). For centuries this doctrine was unanimously rejected by popes, Fathers and theologians of the Catholic Church. (Note 13)
ALL-HOLY — Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life. (”Catechism” 411, 493)
Romans 3:23 says “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”. Revelation 15:4 says, “Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy”. Romans 3:10 says, “There is none righteous, no, not one”.
Jesus is the only person who is referred to in Scripture as sinless. Hebrews 4:15 says, “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” 1 Peter 2:22 says, “Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth”.
In contrast, Mary said that God is her Savior. (Luke 1:47) If God was her Savior, then Mary was not sinless. Sinless people do not need a Savior.
In the Book of Revelation, when they were searching for someone who was worthy to break the seals and open the scroll, the only person who was found to be worthy was Jesus. Nobody else in Heaven or on earth (including Mary) was worthy to open the scroll or even look inside it. (Revelation 5:1-5)
PERPETUAL VIRGINITY — Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ. (”Catechism” 496-511)
Matthew 1:24-25 says, “Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.” “Till” (until) means that after that point, Joseph did “know” (have sexual relations with) Mary. (See Genesis 4:1 where Adam “knew” Eve and she conceived and had a son.)
Jesus had brothers and sisters. The Bible even tells us their names. Matthew 13:54-56 says, “
And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hatch this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us?”
Other Scripture verses which specifically refer to Jesus’ brothers are: Matthew 12:46; John 2:12; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; and Galatians 1:19.
I was always taught that “brothers” and “sisters” were general terms that really could refer to any kind of kinsman, including cousins. This is true in the Hebrew language. However, the New Testament is written in Greek, which is an extremely precise language. It makes a clear distinction between the words used to describe family relationships. There is a Greek word which refers to people who are relatives but not of the immediate family, such as aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces and cousins. There are other Greek words which refer specifically to a person’s brother or sister within a family. (Note 14)
MOTHER OF GOD — Because she is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, therefore Mary is the Mother of God. (”Catechism” 963, 971, 2677).
The Incarnation means that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Mary was only the mother of Jesus as man, and not the mother of Jesus as God. According to the Bible, the world was created through Jesus. This was long before Mary was born. Hebrews 1:1-2 says,
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds”.
Colossians 1:16-17 says,
“For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things [including Mary] were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things [including Mary] , and by him all things consist”.
John 8:58 says, “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am.” Jesus existed before Abraham was born. That means that He also existed before Mary was born. In John 17:5, Jesus says, “And now O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” So Jesus existed even before the world began. Jesus came first — not Mary.
MOTHER OF THE CHURCH — Mary is the Mother of the Church. “Catechism” 963, 975).
Acts 1:13-14 gives a picture of a group of people praying together. Mary is mentioned as one of them, but nothing indicates any special prominence.
“And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Phillip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.”
Mary was probably in the Upper Room when the tongues of fire fell upon the 120 disciples. However, she is never mentioned again in the Book of Acts, which is our only historical record of how the Church was born. She is also not specifically identified in the epistles. Paul did send greetings to “Mary”, but that was a common name. (In the Gospels and in the Book of Acts, she is referred to as “Mary the mother of Jesus” to distinguish her from other women named Mary.)
It is notable that John, who took Mary into his home after Jesus was crucified, does not mention her in his epistles, and he only mentions her on two occasions in his Gospel (the wedding at Cana and the crucifixion of Jesus). John mentions Mary Magdalene more than he mentions Jesus’ mother.
ASSUMPTION — At the end of her life, Mary was taken up (”assumed”) body and soul into Heaven. (”Catechism” 966, 974)
There is no biblical reference to the assumption of Mary. The Gospel of John was written around 90 A.D., which is more than 100 years after Mary was born. (Surely Mary was more than ten years old when Jesus was conceived.) If Mary had been supernaturally assumed into Heaven, wouldn’t John (the disciple that Mary lived with) have mentioned it? When Enoch and Elijah were taken up to Heaven, the Bible recorded it. With Elijah it was recorded in some detail. (See Genesis 6:24 and 2 Kings 2:1-18.)
The Assumption of Mary was officially declared to be a dogma of the Roman Catholic faith in 1950. This means that every Roman Catholic is required to believe this doctrine without questioning it. However, as we will see, the teaching of the Assumption originated with heretical writings which were officially condemned by the early Church.
In 495 A.D., Pope Gelasius issued a decree which rejected this teaching as heresy and its proponents as heretics. In the sixth century, Pope Hormisdas also condemned as heretics those authors who taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. The early Church clearly considered the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy worthy of condemnation. Here we have “infallible” popes declaring something to be a heresy. Then in 1950, Pope Pius XII, another “infallible” pope, declared it to be official Roman Catholic doctrine. (Note 15)
CO-MEDIATOR — Mary is the Co-Mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. (”Catechism” 968-970, 2677)
There is only one mediator and that is Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 says, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” Hebrews 7:25 says,Wherefore he [Jesus] is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.” Ephesians 3:12 says, “In whom [Jesus} we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.”
If Jesus is constantly interceding for us and He is able to save us “to the uttermost,” (utterly, completely) then He doesn’t need Mary’s help. If we can approach God with “boldness” and “confidence” because of our faith in Jesus, then we don’t need Mary’s help either.
QUEEN OF HEAVEN — God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and earth. (”Catechism” 966) She is to be praised with special devotion. (”Catechism” 971, 2675)
Psalm 148:13 says, “Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven.” This makes it quite clear that only God’s name (not Mary’s) is to be exalted. (In Catholic Bibles the numbering of the chapters and verses of some of the Psalms is slightly different.)
When people tried to give Mary special honor and pre-eminence because she was His mother, Jesus corrected them.
“And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.” (Luke 11:27-28)
In chapters four and five of the Book of Revelation, we are given a quite detailed picture of Heaven. God is seated on the throne, surrounded by 24 elders and four living creatures. The Lamb (Jesus) is standing in the center of the throne. Thousands upon thousands of angels circle the throne, singing God’s praises. And Mary is not in the picture at all.
The first Christians gave great devotion and prayed for intercession to OUR lady
Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15459a.htm
Lets see what some of the Early Christians had to say
“But the Lord Christ, the fruit of the Virgin, did not pronounce the breasts of women blessed, nor selected them to give nourishment; but when the kind and loving Father had rained down the Word, Himself became spiritual nourishment to the good. O mystic marvel! The universal Father is one, and one the universal Word; and the Holy Spirit is one and the same everywhere, and one is the only virgin mother. I love to call her the Church. This mother, when alone, had not milk, because alone she was not a woman. But she is once virgin and mother—pure as a virgin, loving as a mother. And calling her children to her, she nurses them with holy milk, viz., with the Word for childhood. Therefore she had not milk; for the milk was this child fair and comely, the body of Christ, which nourishes by the Word the young brood, which the Lord Himself brought forth in throes of the flesh, which the Lord Himself swathed in His precious blood.” Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, I:6 (A.D.202).
“There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord.” Ignatius, To the Ephesians, 7 (c. A.D. 110).
“Mary, the holy Virgin, is truly great before God and men. For how shall we not proclaim her great, who held within her the uncontainable One, whom neither heaven nor earth can contain?” Epiphanius, Panarion, 30:31 (ante A.D. 403).
“Therefore let those who deny that the Son is from the Father by nature and proper to His Essence, deny also that He took true human flesh of Mary Ever-Virgin; for in neither case had it been of profit to us men, whether the Word were not true and naturally Son of God, or the flesh not true which He assumed.” Athanasius, Orations against the Arians, II:70 (A.D. 362).
“And when he had taken her, he knew her not, till she had brought forth her first-born Son.’ He hath here used the word till,’ not that thou shouldest suspect that afterwards he did know her, but to inform thee that before the birth the Virgin was wholly untouched by man. But why then, it may be said, hath he used the word, till’? Because it is usual in Scripture often to do this, and to use this expression without reference to limited times. For so with respect to the ark likewise, it is said, The raven returned not till the earth was dried up.’ And yet it did not return even after that time. And when discoursing also of God, the Scripture saith, From age until age Thou art,’ not as fixing limits in this case. And again when it is preaching the Gospel beforehand, and saying, In his days shall righteousness flourish, and abundance of peace, till the moon be taken away,’ it doth not set a limit to this fair part of creation. So then here likewise, it uses the word “till,” to make certain what was before the birth, but as to what follows, it leaves thee to make the inference.” John Chrysostom, Gospel of Matthew, V:5 (A.D. 370).
“It was, to divulge by the manner of His Incarnation this great secret; that purity is the only complete indication of the presence of God and of His coming, and that no one can in reality secure this for himself, unless he has altogether estranged himself from the passions of the flesh. What happened in the stainless Mary when the fullness of the Godhead which was in Christ shone out through her, that happens in every soul that leads by rule the virgin life.” Gregory of Nyssa, On Virginity, 2 (A.D. 371).
“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair; for there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother. Of these two fair ones, to whom are my children similar?” Ephraem, Nisbene Hymns, 27:8 (ante A.D. 373).
Modernism is the liberalization of Christianity and is the fruits of the reformation.
The article you copied is proof of that as compared to the early Christians
I wish you a Blessed evening!
Reading this combintation of heresy and bad poetry is a torture in and of itself.
I’ll stick the Bible for Truth. Thanks anyway. History by and of the RCC does not line up, in many areas, with the Word of God. Lack of comprehension of Scripture - regarding “the bread of life” for instance - shows either a dead spirit which cannot comprehend spiritual Truth (see 1 Corinthians 2:10 - 16 for one reference) or one who is blind and cares not for the Truth (see Matthew 23:23 - 28 for one reference).
Ephesians 2:8&9 proclaim “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” yet the RCC claims faith plus good works is required.
The RCC puts an earthly “priest” between a saint (an earth-bound believer in Christ Jesus) and our heavenly Father and calls that man “Father”.
The Word of God says, in Hebrews 4:14 - 5:2 “Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.”
And in Matthew 23:9 “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
These are serious issues (with much more Scripture to substantiate the reformed view. Why would any true child of the living God submit to the errors of any church, including the RCC? While each church has errors, not all are based on fundamental errors as is the RCC.
“My dear sister in Jesus Christ,
May the perfect love of God reign in our hearts!
Even though we are far from each other, we are together in spirit because you are so close to Jesus Christ and his holy Mother, and both you and I are children of divine Providence though I am unworthy to be so called. It would be better to call you a novice of divine Providence
because you are just beginning to practise the trust and perfect abandonment which God asks of you. You will be a professed Daughter of Providence only when your abandonment is perfect and your sacrifice
complete. God wants you, my dear sister, he wants you to be separated from everything that is not himself, even if it means being deserted by everyone. But be glad and rejoice, you who are the servant and the spouse of Jesus, when you resemble your master and spouse. Jesus is
poor; Jesus is abandoned; Jesus is despised and rejected as the refuse of the world. You are indeed happy, Louise Grignion, if you are poor in spirit, abandoned, despised and like refuse cast out from the house of St. Joseph. It is then that you will be truly the servant and spouse of
Christ and a truly professed daughter of divine Providence, even if not professed as a religious. What God wants of you, my dear sister, is that you should live each day as it comes, like a bird in the trees, without worrying about tomorrow. Be at peace and trust in divine
Providence and the Blessed Virgin, and do not seek anything else but to please God and love him. There is an unshakeable truth, a divine and eternal axiom, as true as the existence of one God (would to God I could engrave it on your mind and heart!): “Seek first the kingdom of
God and his justice and all the rest will be added unto you.” If you fulfil the first part of this declaration, God, who is infinitely faithful, will carry out the second; i.e. if you serve God and his holy Mother faithfully you will want for nothing in this world or the next. You will not even lack a brother-priest for I will always be with you in my sacrifices so that you may more fully belong to Christ in your sacrifice.”
I greet your Guardian Angel. 1701
Louis Montfort was not canonized for his devotion to the Blessed Virgin. He was canonized for his devotion to Our Lord Jesus Christ. He humbly accepted God’s Will for his life and offered all his gifts to the service of Christ the King. Knowing like all Christians that God alone being the author of any good is also the only one who can claim our good.
So we can trust that you believe (and practice) these Biblical truths?
* confess to another: yes, per James 5:16 - not an element of salvation, but sanctification.
* baptism with water now saves - not now, not ever. Faith in Christ alone saves. Many references, including John 3:17 & 18 show that belief in Christ is the all-in-all because He is sufficient. RCC and others who put stock in water baptism misunderstand Mark 16:16, failing to comprehend Jewish speech patterns and failing to study the whole counsel of God on the issue.
* stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught whether by word or our epistle - The person speaking such a thing would have to have been an Apostle appointed by Christ and given the Words of God to speak, such as Paul or James as they wrote an epistle. In fact, standing fast on those and others whom God used to write His words (collectively called the Bible) are what I stand fast on, as opposed to the teaching of men who are not one of those few, nor do I stand fast on church doctrine - unless it is Biblical.
* this is my body - what, the words on this page? If ye speak of Christ’s words, this is classic reference to “wooden headed” interpretation. He also said He was the door and the gate - do you worship doors and/or gates?
* if you have all faith and no charity you are nothing - That is what the Lord recorded in 1 Corinthians 13:2 and it means the same thing that James teaches: one of the ways a Christian can know another or check his own heart is to see if he has love for the brotherhood and lost folks and has good deeds that reflect his love for God in Christ.
* whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven - This is a poor translation of Matthew 16:19, which is not teaching us that if we tie up a murderer on Earth that he is also bound up in Heaven. Here’s a link to a very good examination of this concept: http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue102.htm
* Abraham was justified by works and not by faith alone - no way. Read Romans 4:1 - 12 to see how his works were NOT what justified him in the sight of God, but his faith - trusting in God and nothing else.
* faith without works is dead - agreed, as James well put it in James chapter 2: true saving faith will produce works. James is giving us a way to examine our lives to see if we have saving faith or flesh pleasing non-saving faith. Faith in and of itself is no better than the object of the faith. Faith in the Great Pumpkin won’t save, no matter how pure the faith. Simple trust and belief in Christ - that He is the lamg of God Who takes away my awful sin - saves.
Thanks for asking for clarification.
So you don't believe Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us -- baptism
this is my body - what, the words on this page?
Funny.
Abraham was justified by works and not by faith alone - no way
So do you just ignore James 2:21-24 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
If you’re interested in the Biblical reasoning on salvation and why water baptism is NOT essential, please check out http://www.truthsaves.org/articles/baptism.shtml#logic and/or http://www.reynoldsforcongress.net/baptism.htm
Check the whole counsel of God’s Word for understanding of important doctrines, especially salvation. 2 Timothy 1:7 - 14; Romans 11:1 - 6; Acts 15:7 - 11; Ephesians 2:1 - 10 for starters.
Who writes this trash, anyway? These people disgust me, and I'm not what anyone would call Catholic.
The baptism spoken of in 1 Peter 3:21 is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is a truth for all who have saving faith in Christ.
It’s funny when you declare “Biblical Truths” without providing Biblical references for them.
James 2:21-24 records the saving faith that produces works, it does not contradict the teaching of the Word throughout Scripture that man’s best deeds, apart from Christ, are as “filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6). James rhetorical argument about faith without works is very similar to Paul’s argument in 1 Corinthians 13 that deeds without love are dead. Both are saying the same thing - saving faith is that which loves and does good deeds.
Genuine faith in the truth of the gospel is saving faith. No one having saving faith is “dead.” In Ephesians 2:1-8 Paul teaches that we were dead, but that God made us alive, and that He did so by grace through faith. It is also true that where genuine saving faith exists, it produces evidence in the lives of those who have it as Paul asserts in Ephesians 2:10. So when James says that faith without works is dead, he refers to something other than the type of faith that Paul says is a work of grace. It is the type of faith demons have (see James 2:17-19). In the gospel of John, John uses the term “believe” in two ways.24 There are those, for example, who “believed” in John 8:30 but when confronted with their need to be set free began to debate Jesus and later accused him of sin (see John 8:31-47). Jesus told them they were definitely not from God. But in many other places in John those who believe are true believers who have eternal life.
“Neal Christie, who is the Assistant General Secretary of the United Methodist Board of Church & Society, offered up his Marian liberationist prayer as part of his agency’s special holiday message. Merry Christmas from a Virgin Mary who more resembles Winnie Mandela than the Jewish mother of Jesus!”
Amen - that kind of tripe can come from virtually anyone.
That’s why I walked away from the UMC (along with unease with the lesbian woman who replaced our long time pastor) and am attending mass contemplating conversion. There is crap in every church but Pope Benedict impresses me as a spiritual leader. I don’t think I will live to see the day he is replaced by a lesbian priest.
Truly, Methodist religion is poor fare indeed. If one wishes to be religious and Christian, Roman Catholicism is the best choice.
I was booted out of the UMC by a rabid feminist DS who told me, “Your congregation is a flock of sheep who will follow you anywhere.” So much for Jesus’ admonition to feed His sheep.
Martin Luther and the protestant revolution have been the cause of more lost souls than any other person/movement in history
My earlier post is easily misunderstood. Religion is the human solution to the problem posed by the Holy Spirit. Religion is the institutionalization of that which is explicitly anti-institutional, specifically, the Holy Spirit.
Only a personal relationship with Christ saves one's soul.
If one wishes to be a religious Christian then one ought to be a Roman Catholic. The superior religion on this earth, however, is Orthodox Judaism.
Martin Luther and the protestant revolution have been the cause of more lost souls than any other person/movement in history
With the exception of the RC church. Religion does not guarantee salvation. It does not even offer it. Religion is man's divisive solution to the problem of the Holy Spirit.
Religion is the institutionalization of that which is explicitly anti-institutional, specifically, the Holy Spirit.
Only a personal relationship with Christ saves one's soul.
If one wishes to be a religious Christian then one ought to be a Roman Catholic. The superior religion on this earth, however, is Orthodox Judaism.
This should read...
I’ll stick the Bible my own privite interpretations of the Bible for for Truth.
Dear friend, don't you realize that the Catholic Church gave you the Bible and you have to trust Church Fathers like Saint Athanasius,Jerome and Augustine and others to give witness that Bible is the word of God?
The teachings of the Catholic Church came to you through Protestants and you discovered that the Bible is really the Word of God. thus, the Bible is not self-authenticating -we don't even have original copies of Scripture ,we have only scaps. You accepted the witness of those who told you, heard their preaching, saw their witness and life style, and accepted what they claimed. That is HOW we know the Bible is the Word of God, not by opening it off the library shelf and reading it!
Those same early Church Fathers you trust to tell you the Bible is the word of God,EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM (NOT EVEN A SINGLE EXCEPTION) believed that the Eucharist is truly Christ fully present-Body,Blood Soul and Divinity.
Lets see what Blessed Saint Athanasis had to say since he was the first to list the twenty-seven canonical books of the New Testament...
"You will see the Levites bringing the loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers and invocations have not yet been made, it is mere bread and a mere cup. But when the great and wonderous prayers have been recited, then the bread becomes the body and the cup the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ....When the great prayers and holy supplications are sent up, the Word descends on the bread and the cup, and it becomes His body." Athanasius, Sermon to the Newly Baptized, PG 26, 1325 (ante A.D. 373).
Are you going to call Blessed Athanasius a lier?
If so, how is it you trust him with Bible Canon to tell you what scriptures were inspired by God?
Any story about a man biting a dog makes the news. Those who quietly fish from the right side of the boat aren’t saying anything new, therefore, they’re not very newsworthy.
terycarl said, “Martin Luther and the protestant revolution have been the cause of more lost souls than any other person/movement in history”
-and-
Amos the Prophet said, “With the exception of the RC church.”
Do both of you really believe that man, any man, any group of men are more powerful than God?
Yoni-in-fatigues-and-a-Che-T-shirt-ping.
Appears you’ve been brain washed by the RCC. No such thing a Roman Catholic until the 4th century. Those people you cite - they are not those whom the Lord spoke Scriptures through. The RCC did everything in its power to keep the Bible away from folks for centuries.
The term Eucharist did not take on the mystical, Gnostic notion currently held by the RCC until the 11th century (by Gilbert of Savardin, Archbishop of Tours) - it meant what evangelicals currently call communion until the RCC perverted it. Can’t find credible (actually, any) evidence that Athanasius held this heretical view of Christ. While he is respected by many as a man of God, that would not make this or any other heresy true, just because he might have held that one view.
So called scraps of the true Scriptures have been gathered over the years and any Bible scholar can show you how the KJV and NASB are 98% or so compliant with the source documents. While apocrypha were included in the publication and binding of Bibles until the 18th century, this was done (except for the RCC) as a means to provide important books to church folk - but they were not (and are not) Scripture.
Anyone who thinks Christ is sacrificed weekly at countless RCCs is deceived. Hebrews 1:1 -3 show that Christ “sat down” after He purged our sins - that signifies “job complete”.
Hebrews 10:1 - 18 states very clearly that Christ was sacrificed ONCE and that’s all that was necessary; because He was worthy to be the Lamb of God.
10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Below is Hebrews 7:11 - 28, which makes clear that Christ does not get sacrificed time after time.
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
Dear me, I failed to provide a key scripture for you. I ran across it while studying for Sunday. Romans 6:9 & 10 show that Christ died but once and does not die - sacrifice Himself for sin - any more.
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
That’s really good news that anyone who truly loves the Lord and believes in Him should rejoice in - rather than pretending that Jesus is being murdered on account of sin every week in every RCC building.
Take-two-opiates-and-call-me-in-the-mourning-pong.
“”Can’t find credible (actually, any) evidence that Athanasius held this heretical view of Christ.””
Here is what Blessed Athanasius said..
“But after the great and wonderful prayers have been completed, then the bread is become the Body, and the wine the Blood, of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Saint Athanasius -”Sermon to the Newly Baptized” ante 373 A.D.
No such thing a Roman Catholic until the 4th century.
Assuming you’re still talking about Eucharist?
Here is some of the the writings from the Early Saints before the 4th century. They all believed that the Eucharist became the real Body and Blood of Christ! Every single one of them!
“I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed.”
Saint Igantius-”Letter to the Romans”, paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.
“Since then these things are manifest to us, and we have looked into the depths of the divine knowledge, we ought to do in order all things which the Master commanded us to perform at appointed times. He commanded us to celebrate sacrifices and services, and that it should not be thoughtlessly or disorderly, but at fixed times and hours. He has Himself fixed by His supreme will the places and persons whom He desires for these celebrations, in order that all things may be done piously according to His good pleasure, and be acceptable to His will. So then those who offer their oblations at the appointed seasons are acceptable and blessed, but they follow the laws of the Master and do not sin. For to the high priest his proper ministrations are allotted, and to the priests the proper place has been appointed, and on Levites their proper services have been imposed. The layman is bound by the ordinances for the laity.”
Source: St. Clement, bishop of Rome, 80 A.D., to the Corinthians
You said...
“The term Eucharist did not take on the mystical, Gnostic notion currently held by the RCC until the 11th century”
This is an absolute lie!
Here is what ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH SAID ...
“Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.”
“Letter to the Smyrnaeans”, paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.
You modernists fail to comprehend that God is outside of time .
Here is a repost ( I think I sent it to you by freepmail as well.)
Why do you suppose Scripture puts focus on Bread and Wine?
Genesis 14.17-20, says....
After his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with them, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh, (that is the King’s Valley). And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out BREAD and wine; he was priest of God Most High. And he blessed him and said,
“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
maker of heaven and earth;
and blessed be God Most High,
who has delivered your enemies into your hand!”
This is the first time in the Bible that anyone is addressed by the word coen, the Hebrew word for priest. As a “priest of God Most High,” Melchizedek “brought out bread and wine.”
What is the connection between his priesthood and those two offerings?
What about this....
Jesus said “Your ancestors ate manna in the wilderness and died...I am the living BREAD that came down from heaven...unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man you will not have life within you.”
Jesus was born in “Bethlehem” which, in Hebrew, literally means “house of Bread”
A manger was not a place where animals stayed. It was a trough where food was put to feed the animals. Mary laid Jesus in a place where food was placed
At the last supper, which was a passover meal, Jesus said “take this and eat it, this is my body.”
“I Am The BREAD of Life”
John 6:48
Scripture says “For indeed Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us. Therefore, let us keep this feast.” (1 Cor 5:7-8) This relates to Exodus 12:1-42. The Passover meal saved from the angel of death who was striking the first born children in Egypt. At a traditional Passover supper, the Jews ate the sacrificial lamb.
Paul is saying that this feast should continue. They don’t think that he was “re-sacrificing” Christ when he kept this feast.
We see the Eucharistic formula throughout Scripture. At table, Jesus takes . . . blesses . . . breaks . . . and gives the bread. He also took a cup of wine; after giving thanks to God, He gave it to His disciples saying, “This is My blood . . . of the [new] covenant.” Matthew 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:15-20. This is the same formula Jesus uses during the first Eucharistic celebration after the resurrection when He encountered two disciples on the road to Emmaus (see Luke 24:13-35). When the Corinthians drift from the proper Eucharistic formula, Paul corrects them.(1 Corinthians 11:23-29)
“Give us this day our daily bread.”
Matthew 6:11
This is from the prayer that Jesus taught us, the “Our Father”.
It means in totality, bread as food for our bodies and spiritual bread as food for our souls.
We are to continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God.
Every day in every place a clean oblation is offered.
What, or who, is the sacrifice and what is a clean oblation?
It is an offering of praise to GOD, in the Holy Eucharist, the Body, and the Precious Blood of Christ. The Catholic Church offers the sacrifice of praise to GOD all over the world, every day in the Mass.
It has replaced the bloody animal sacrifices of the Old Testament.
That is why it is called a clean oblation.
In Matthew 26:26, didn’t Jesus take bread and say, “Take and eat; this is my body”?
And did he not beseech us to say in the Lords Prayer:
“Give us this day out daily bread”, (both physical for the body, and spiritual for the soul).
Matthew 6:11
How many non-Catholic ecclesial communities offer daily sacrifice, a clean oblation, as is clearly commanded for us to do by Holy Scripture? How many do not even offer sacrifice?
“Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened.
For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed.”
1Corinthians 5:7
“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.”
Ephesians 5:1-2
“I have received full payment, and more; I am filled, having received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God.”
Philippians 4:18
Jesus Christ is the “food” which sustains the spiritual soul which lives forever. He is the “bread come down from heaven” as we saw in John chapter six.
Can a mere “symbol” sustain the spiritual soul to eternal life?
Since the manna was the type or symbol of the New Testament reality, that question can be answered by another basic rule of typology
“An Old Testament type (symbol) never points to a New Testament symbol, but to a reality.”
So obviously the “food which endures to eternal life” cannot be a symbol, but a New Testament reality. It also cannot be a symbol, for another reason. It would violate yet a second basic rule of typology which we have previously discussed:
“The New Testament reality is far superior to the Old Testament type.”
So does this mean that Christ is sacrificed over and over again in the Eucharistic Celebration?
Again, what does Holy Scripture say?
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;”
1Peter 3:18
“The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, unstained, separated from sinners, exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself.”
Hebrews 7:23-27
Christ was sacrificed only once and for all time. He is both the High Priest and the victim.
Catechism of the Catholic Church # 1366
“The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit: (Christ), our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper ‘on the night when he was betrayed,’ (he wanted) to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.
(Council of Trent (1562): DS 1740; cf. 1 Cor 11:23; Heb 7:24,27.)”
We must remember that GOD is outside of time. Time is a measure of change for the things He has created. Since He never changes, He Himself is outside of time.
Consequently, everything from creation, and before, and for all eternity is now with GOD, including the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. It is a continuous, never ending sacrifice.
How can something that never ends be repeated?
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.”
And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exodus 3:14
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
John 8:58
“And getting into a boat he crossed over and came to his own city. And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed; and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—”Rise, take up your bed and go home.” And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.”
Matthew 9:1-8
These classic verses graphically show the connection between healing of the body and healing of the soul. Jesus first cleansed the paralytic’s soul, and then He cleansed his body. Pay especial attention to the last line. To whom was authority given? Notice that the very last word in the verses is plural.
In summery
1. The body needs physical food in order to survive or else it will die.
2. The spiritual soul needs spiritual food in order to avoid spiritual death, the separation from GOD.
3. Spiritual food cannot be a symbolic gesture, simply because a mere symbol could not possibly feed the spiritual soul. Spiritual food is as much a reality as is physical food. It is the anti type of its Old Testament type of the manna in the desert. Recall that an O.T. type never points to a N.T. symbol.
4. Scripture tells us that there will be offered sacrifice every day in every place, a clean oblation.
How can symbolism of a sacrifice be a sacrifice in itself?
5. The bread come down from heaven, Jesus Christ, is that clean oblation, His sacrifice on the cross.
6. Jesus Christ was sacrificed once on the cross for all eternity.
7. Jesus Christ is both the High Priest and the victim, the Paschal Lamb of sacrifice.
8. Since He is High Priest forever (Heb 7:17), He is also the sacrificial Lamb forever (Rev 5:13-14).
9. Since GOD is outside of time, everything is now with Him. That one sacrifice at Calvary, which is always now for GOD, is made present for us during the Eucharistic celebration of the Mass.
10. The Mass is a re-presentation of that one sacrifice. We are re-presented at Calvary
You also said
“So called scraps of the true Scriptures have been gathered over the years and any Bible scholar can show you how the KJV and NASB are 98% or so compliant with the source documents.”
Prove it?
This is more nonsense. The KJV is filled with errors in translation.The NASB is even worse.
Dear Friend , Please take the time to pray and study the facts.
I wish you a Blessed evening!
Cite the non-RCC source for everything historical you claim, such as your precious 4th century Arthanasius’ belief about the heretical transubstantiation.
Where is the Bible is this recorded: “Scripture tells us that there will be offered sacrifice every day in every place, a clean oblation.”?
If, as you recognize, Christ was sacrificed once for the sin of man (and Scripture that I’ve already cited shows He sat down at the right hand of God the Father afterward), why does the RCC display Him in His moment of humiliation?
Christ is the Lamb of God forever, but He is not sacrificed forever. You just admitted He died one time for all time. Rev 5:13 & 14 do state that He continually dies for us, simply that He is and will be worshiped forever.
Yes, God is not bound by time - yet He described such things as the sacrifice of Christ in the context of time so His creatures might understand it. Hebrews 10 (cited above) shows clearly that, unlike OT priests, Christ needed not to continue to offer sacrifices. One time, in time, for all time.
Since priests are mentioned in Heb 10, why does the RCC claim saints (as the Bible calls Christians) need an earthly priest? And why call that man Father? Both of these fly in the face of God’s Word (cited earlier in this thread).
You say “The Mass is a re-presentation of that one sacrifice. We are re-presented at Calvary.” RCC doctrine that you claim as Truth says Mass and the centerpiece thereof (the Eucharist) are nor a representation, but the very body and blood of Christ. Are you not RCC? And where in Scripture are we told to be represented at Calvary?
From http://www.catholicconcerns.com/Trans.html, some good observations and questions:
When Jesus talked about eating His flesh and drinking His blood, he was using a metaphor (symbolic language). He often did that when He described our relationship with Him. For example, Jesus said,
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.” (John 10:7-9)
But we don’t make special doors that represent Jesus. And we don’t walk through them in order to be saved. And we don’t go into pastures to eat grass like sheep do.
There is another basic problem with the doctrine of transubstantiation. If consecrated bread really did turn into Jesus Christ, then this is what would happen when you took communion. You would eat the consecrated bread. Because of that, Jesus would be inside of you. But only until the bread was digested. Once the bread was gone, then Jesus would also be gone. If you only took communion at Mass on Sundays, then Jesus would be inside of you for a few hours on Sundays. The rest of the time, He would be gone.
This is not what we see in Scripture. Jesus promised to stay with us, to be with us all the time. He said,
“Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.” (Matthew 28:20)
“For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” (Matthew 18:20)
Jesus said that a time would come when we would realize that He truly lives in us, and we truly live in Him.
“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” (John 14:20)
Jesus told us,
“Abide in me, and I in you.” (John 15:4)
According to “Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary,” the word “abide” means “to stay; to continue in a place; to dwell; sojourn; to remain”.
God sees everything as one NOW ,everything is one event with God.
You know full well that there is no historical pre -reformation “Christain” writings to support your view that the Eucharist is symbolic.
You can only drag up writings from heretics,the reformation was lead by heretics as well.
You have NOTHING to support your view other than your own private interpretations of the Bible.
You deny that Christ has no power to make Himself present in the Eucharist.
Scripture along with the Early Christians is not in your favor on this,like IT or not!
Take a look..
The Old Testament
God Raises His Covenant Children
Jesus introduced the Sacrament of Holy Eucharist. It did not exist during the days of the Old Testament. However, our Father in heaven gradually prepared us to receive it. These Old Testament accounts describe pre-figurations of the Holy Eucharist.
Abel
The earliest shadow of the Sacrament of Christ’s Body and Blood was Abel, the younger son of Adam and Eve. Cain murdered the good shepherd Abel. The Lord told Cain, Gn 4:10 “The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to Me from the ground.” The Book of Hebrews reminds us of, Heb 12:24 “ [Christ’s] sprinkled Blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.”
Melchizedek
Melchizedek pre-figured Christ. When Abram returned from his victory over Chedorlaomer, Gn 14:18 “Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was priest of God Most High ” to bless Abram, pre-figuring the bread and wine consecrated by a priest at Mass. The Book of Hebrews tells us, Heb 7:2 “[Melchizedek] is first, by translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then he is also king of Salem [shalom], that is, king of peace. He is without father or mother or genealogy, and has neither beginning nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest for ever.”
Moses
Moses, the first Israelite priest, read the Torah to all of the six hundred thousand Israelite people assembled at the foot of Mt. Sinai, and threw the blood of sacrificed oxen on the people, saying Ex 24:8 “Behold the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you.” Jesus said at the Last Supper, Mt 26:28 “This is my blood of the covenant.”
Ex 34:29 “When Moses came down from Mount Sinai, with the two tables of the testimony in his hand as he came down from the mountain ... the skin of his face shone because he had been talking with God ... he put a veil on his face.” Jesus comes to us veiled, under the appearance of bread and wine. We could not stand the superbrilliant light of His full glory compared to our own souls darkened by sin.
The Harvest
In ancient Israel, the Spring harvest consisted of grain or wheat. Bread has long been the symbol of the Spring harvest. The Autumn harvest was mostly grapes and olives. Grape wine and olive oil were symbols of the Autumn harvest. Bread and wine. God commanded, Lv 23:12-13 “You shall offer a male lamb a year old without blemish as a burnt offering to the Lord. And the cereal offering with it shall be two tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil and the drink offering with it shall be of wine.” Priests anoint with oil. Torah unites bread and wine, and the priest, with the sacrifice of the lamb.
Tabernacle Sacrifice
Bread of the Presence
The Bread of the Presence, in the ancient Tabernacle and later in the Temple, 1 Kgs 7:48 prefigured Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.
In the Tabernacle God commanded Moses, Ex 25:8 “Let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst.” In the sanctuary, in the ark of the covenant, God told Moses, Ex 25:22 “There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you...” God added, Ex 25:30 “You shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before me always.” Jesus told us, Mt 28:20 “I am with you always.”
Abimelech the priest gave David this sacred bread. 1 Sam 21:6 “So the priest gave him the holy bread; for there was no bread there but the bread of the Presence.” Jesus taught us that it was for all His disciples. Mt 12:1 “At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the sabbath; his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck ears of grain and to eat. ... [Jesus] said to them, ‘Have you not read what David did, when he was hungry, and those who who were with him: how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence ... I tell you, something greater than the temple is here.”
Jesus showed us what was greater than the Temple. Lk 22:19 “He took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’”
Blood of the Lamb
During Moses’ time the priests sacrificed in the Tabernacle, a portable house of God in the wilderness. After Solomon built the First Temple, it became the place of sacrifice. The highest form of Hebrew worship was sacrifice, not prayer alone, just as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the highest form of Catholic worship. A priest is one who offers sacrifice. The Catholic priest is the counterpart not of the rabbi, but of the ancient Jewish priest who offered bloody sacrifices. The deacon, who reads the Gospel, is the rabbi’s counterpart.
The Old Testament sacrifice of a lamb, as opposed to any other animal, was important. The lamb did not resist, run away, or even cry out. Isaiah had foretold that the Lamb of God would do the same, Is 53:7 “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.”
The Jewish priests, before sacrificing the lamb, always asked, “Do you love this lamb?” If the family didn’t love the lamb there would be no sacrifice. Jesus three times asked Peter, Jn 21:15 “Do you love Me?” Jesus allowed Peter to replace his triple denial with a triple affirmation that he did indeed love the Sacrificed Lamb.
The family would place the lamb into the hands of the priest. When we give something to God we place it in His hands. Jesus’ last words on the Cross were, Lk 23:46 “Father, into Thy hands I commit My spirit!”
The priest and the head of the family then prayed together that God would accept the blood of the innocent lamb for the sins of that family for the entire year, just as the Lamb of God shed His Blood to redeem the sins of all His human family. The Catholic priest says, “Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father.”
The head of household then cut the lamb’s throat with a sharp bronze knife while the priest caught the lamb’s blood in a large bronze bowl. The priest then made seven complete trips around the altar, sprinkling the blood from the lamb on each of the four “horns.” Then he took the lamb’s body and placed it on the altar and started the ritual fire. With a big fire and a small lamb, the sacrifice was over quickly. The smoke rose from the altar. If the wind blew the smoke away and dispersed it, the priest told the family that its offer was rejected, and that it should repent and come back the following year. But if the smoke drifted upward, higher and higher until it disappeared from view, the priest told the family that God had accepted the sacrifice.
Before the great tabernacle sacrifice, Jewish priests washed their hands in a bronze laver, or basin. Ps 26:6 “I wash my hands in innocence, and go about Thy altar, O Lord.” Today the Catholic priest washes his hands saying inaudibly, Ps 51:2 “Lord, wash away my iniquity; cleanse me from my sin.”
The first priest attended at a great golden lampstand with seven oil lamps, called a menorah. It was dark in the tabernacle, and the menorah gave light.
The second priest attended at the table of showbread. God had commanded Lv 24:5 that the Jewish priests, from Aaron forward, place twelve loaves of bread on a golden table “before the Lord.” On each sabbath, the priests ate the bread which had been set in place on the preceding sabbath. This bread was to be eaten by the priests in a sacred place since it was Lv 24:9 “most holy” among the offerings to the Lord. God had said, Ex 23:18 “You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leavened bread.” During the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass the Catholic priest consecrates unleavened bread on the altar which becomes Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, and is consumed by the royal priesthood as the most holy offering in the New and Everlasting Covenant.
The third priest served at the altar of incense. It looked like a small altar of sacrifice, with the same four horns. On it was a bronze laver. The priest would take a red-hot burning ember from the fire in which the lamb had been sacrificed, put it in the basin, and pour some incense on it, that his prayers might have a fragrant scent and go straight up to God. On solemn occasions Catholics spread incense about the altar as an act of reverence and purification. The smoke rising to heaven represents our own desire to have our prayers ascend heavenward in God’s sight. Ps 141:2 “Let my prayer be counted as incense before Thee, and the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice.”
God told Moses to place the Torah in the Ark of the Covenant, which in turn was placed within a tabernacle. God commanded, Ex 27:20 “You shall command the people of Israel that they bring to you pure beaten olive oil for the light, that a lamp may be set up to burn continually.” All was placed within the tabernacle. By night, there was always a fire over the tabernacle, Ex 40:38 This began the idea of an eternal lamp beside the Jewish tabernacle. A thousand years later the Temple lamp miraculously continued to shine for eight days with only one day’s supply of oil. Catholics continue this ancient Israelite tradition by placing a lighted candle beside the tabernacle in which the consecrated Hosts repose.
In the center of the tabernacle was a room called the Holy of Holies. Once a year the cohen gadol, the high priest, alone would enter that room. In it was the Ark of the Covenant. Inside the ark were the two stone tablets with the Ten Commandments, a golden bowl of manna, and the five Torah scrolls. The Torah was a witness against the Israelites, Dt 31:26 but above it all was God’s solid gold mercy seat, with a crown and two cherubim kneeling in prayer. Above the mercy seat, between the two cherubim, was a brilliant light, the shining glory of God. Ex 25:22 “From above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you.” When the priest saw that light he took a huge cup of blood and sprinkled it until it was empty. Jewish tradition holds that not one drop of the blood of sacrifice ever touched the mercy seat or the cherubim; it all went into the bright light of God’s glory. Jesus said, Jn 8:12 “I am the light of the world.” Jesus’ covenant family gave Him their imperfect sacrifices, and He gave them His perfect sacrifice.
The Todah Sacrifice
The ancient Jews had a special ritual meal called the Todah (Hebrew: thanks) (pronounce: Taw-DAH). Although the Todah sacrificed an animal, it was greater than other animal sacrifices because it added the suffering of one’s own life. David wrote, Ps 40:6,8 “Burnt offering and sin offering Thou hast not required. I delight to do Thy will, O my God; Thy law is within my heart.” Again, David wrote, Ps 51:17 “The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit.” And again, Ps 69:30 “I will praise the name of God with a song; I will magnify Him with thanksgiving. This will please the Lord more than an ox or a bull with horns and hoofs.” Isaiah spoke the words of God, Is 1:11 “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams.” God called instead for a baptism: Is 1:16 “Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from My eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good.”
The seventy elders who went up with Moses to see God offered the Todah: Ex 24:11 “They beheld God, and ate and drank.” Twelve centuries later, twelve apostles beheld God, and ate and drank as Jesus prepared to offer His Todah sacrifice: Lk 22:19 “He took bread, and when He had given thanks He broke it ” From the beginning, Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity has been called Holy Eucharist (Greek: eucharistia, thanksgiving).
The ancient rabbis believed that when the Messiah would come all sacrifices except the Todah would cease, but the Todah would continue for all eternity. In 70 AD the Temple fell to earth and all of the bloody animal sacrifices stopped. Only the Todah remains, the eucharistia, the Final Sacrifice at which the last words spoken are Todah l’Adonai, “Thanks be to God.”
Passover
Jesus was pre-figured in the original Passover, when God commanded that Moses tell the Israelites, Ex 12:5-6 “Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs in the evening,” as Jesus the Lamb of God was crucified in dim light. Mt 27:45 God commanded, Ex 12:8 “They shall eat the flesh that night,” and told Moses, Ex 12:12 “I will smite all the first-born in the land of Egypt.” But He promised, Ex 12:13 “The blood shall be a sign for you when I see the blood, I will pass over you.” Most of us know that the original Passover pre-figured the Body and Blood of the crucified Lamb. But there is more to the Passover story.
Pharaoh commanded the death of every Hebrew male infant in Egypt, Ex 1:22 but death passed over Moses. Ex 2:5-10 Twelve centuries later, before Herod commanded the death of every Hebrew male infant in Bethlehem, Mt 2:13 death passed also over Jesus.
The Jewish celebration of Passover has from the beginning been an experience of exile and return, as its participants re-live the experience of the desert and encounter with God. After Jesus was crucified the apostles also experienced a sense of exile in the desert followed by a transforming encounter with God. In this way Jesus is spiritually present in the entire Seder.
The Seder table is different in many ways from the Jewish table setting on all other nights, as the ma nishtano acknowledges. God chose a young Jewish girl, a virgin who lived in Nazareth, to begin the rest of the story. Mary began her own Seder each year as Jews have since time immemorial, by lighting candles to give festive light to the table. Mary also gave us Jesus, the Jn 8:12 light of the world. Jesus has been at every Seder from the first one to this very day, spiritually present in the bread, wine, and lamb.
Bread
Jesus is spiritually present in the bread. It is unleavened, pure as Jesus was pure. It has dark stripes, as His back was striped by Pilate’s scourging. It is pierced, as He was pierced on the Cross. Once it was the bread of life for Israel on the desert, as Jesus is the Jn 6:35 Bread of Life for all mankind. During the Seder, the head of the family takes three pieces of unleavened bread, reminding us of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. He breaks in half the second piece, suggesting the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity crucified. He then wraps one of these two pieces, called the afikomen (Hebrew: festival procession), a reminder of Jesus’ constant call, “Follow Me,” in white linen, reminding us of Jesus linen burial cloth, and “buries” or hides it, as Jesus was entombed. Later the youngest at table “resurrects” or finds the afikomen as Jesus rose from the dead. The head of the family then breaks the afikomen and passes it around for all to eat, as Jesus did when He told His apostles, Lk 22:19 “This is My Body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of Me.” In that way, Jesus through the Seder calls us to follow Him into His death and resurrection, to become a new person in Christ.
The unleavened bread also reminds us of the haste with which the Israelites left Egypt. The dough that they were sunbaking on the hot rocks of the Egyptian fields was removed before it could leaven, and so remained flat. It represents our need to remain ever alert and prepared for the day when God calls us to our destiny as Jesus told us, Mt 25:13 “Watch, therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.”
Wine
Jesus is spiritually present in the wine. When the afikomen is broken and passed around for all to eat, Jews drink the third of four cups of wine, called the cup of blessing because it represents the blood of the sacrificed paschal lamb. It is the cup that Jesus gave to His apostles, saying, Lk 22:20 “This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in My Blood.” He did not drink the fourth, the Kalah cup, explaining, Mt 26:29 “I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” But later that evening at Gethsemane, Jesus prayed by moonlight, Mt 26:39 “Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me.” After He was captured, Jesus asked Peter, Jn 18:11 “Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given Me?” Many Catholics believe that Jesus drank the last cup on the Cross, Jn 19:29 “They put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to His mouth. When Jesus had received the vinegar, He said, ‘It is finished’; and He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.”
Lamb
Pasch or pesach in Hebrew means “he passed over.” The paschal lamb recalls the lamb that was sacrificed that its blood might be daubed on the doorposts of every Jewish home, and its body eaten in every Jewish home, that the angel of death might know it as a household of the faithful and pass over. God had originally commanded Ex 12:6 that the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel kill the paschal lambs. When Solomon built the first Temple, Jewish priests sacrificed the paschal lambs there. But after Jesus ascended to heaven and the second Temple fell never to rise again, the Temple sacrifices could no longer be done, so Jews began to represent the paschal lamb with a lamb’s shank bone.
Jesus is spiritually present in the shank bone of the lamb. The Jews in Egypt ate the paschal lamb to be physically redeemed and led to the promised land of Canaan. Catholics for two thousand years have consumed the Body and Blood of the Lamb of God, Jn 1:29 that we might be spiritually redeemed and find the promised kingdom of heaven.
In the ancient days, when the Jewish priest had killed the last lamb of the Passover, he uttered the Hebrew word Kalah, “it is finished.” Moments before He died on the Cross, Jesus said, Jn 19:30 Kalah (it is finished).
The Exodus
After the Passover, with its pre-figuration of Calvary, the Israelite people began their long exodus from the land of Egypt to the promised land of Canaan. God told Moses, Ex 16:4 “I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or not.” Moses told the Israelites, Ex 16:8 “When the Lord gives you in the evening flesh and in the morning bread to the full ” The “bread from heaven” reminds us of Christ’s words, Jn 6:49 “Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.” The “evening flesh” reminds us of Christ’s sacrifice. Mt 27:45, 50 “Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour. And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.” The “morning bread” reminds us of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
The Israelites gathered up the manna, Ex 16:17 “ some more, some less. But when they measured it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; each gathered according to what he could eat.” This reminds us of the Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes, Mt 15:37 “And they all ate and were satisfied.” That miracle pre-figured the Holy Eucharist, from which the smallest piece is a full portion of Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, and which can never run out because Jesus said He would be with us until the end of time. Mt 28:20 As long as a priest lives we Christ’s flock can have all we want.
Elijah
At a time when the land parched from lack of rain, God sent Elijah the Tishbite to the brook Cherith, that is east of the river Jordan, promising, 1 Kgs 17:4 “You shall drink from the brook, and I have commanded the ravens to feed you there.” So Elijah went. 1 Kgs 17:6 “And the ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning, and bread and meat in the evening; and he drank from the brook.”
When the brook dried up God sent Elijah to Zarepath, saying, 1 Kgs 17:9 “Behold, I have commanded a widow there to feed you.” Elijah found the widow and asked her, 1 Kgs 17:10 “Bring me a morsel of bread in your hand.” The widow and her son had virtually no food left and were near starvation. 1 Kgs 17:12 “As the Lord lives,” she said, “I have nothing baked, only a handful of meal in a jar, and a little oil in a cruse; and now, I am gathering a couple of sticks, that I may go in and prepare it for myself and my son, that we may eat it, and die.”
But Elijah told her, 1 Kgs 17:13 “Fear not; go and do as you have said; but first make me a little cake of it and bring it to me, and afterward make for yourself and your son. For thus says the Lord the God of Israel, ‘The jar of meal shall not be spent, and the cruse of oil shall not fail, until the day that the Lord sends rain upon the earth.” The widow did as Elijah said, and she and her son and Elijah ate for many days. 1 Kgs 17:16 “The jar of meal was not spent, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the Lord which he spoke by Elijah.”
After that, the woman’s son became ill and died. Elijah carried the woman’s son into the upper room where he had been living and prayed, 1 Kgs 17:21 “Oh Lord my God, let this child’s soul come into him again.” 1 Kgs 17:22 “And the Lord hearkened to the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.”
The food brought by the ravens reminds us of the manna, which itself pre-figured the Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes. The ravens brought bread, which pre-figured Christ’s Holy Eucharist, and meat, which pre-figured His redemptive sacrifice. The water from the brook which kept Elijah alive pre-figured the living water that flowed from Christ’s side. At Zarepath, Elijah was again fed by a pre-figure of the Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes. The widow pre-figures our Blessed Mother, who was a widow on the day of Christ’s sacrifice. Her son pre-figures Christ, who died and rose from the dead.
In the wilderness Elijah was awakened by an angel’s touch. 1 Kgs 19:6 “There was at his head a cake baked on hot stones and a jar of water.” The cake reminds us of the Holy Eucharist. The water, of the water that Jesus turned to wine at Cana Jn 2:9 and then to the Blood of the Covenant in Jerusalem. Mt 26:27 The angel told Elijah, 1 Kgs 19:7 “Arise and eat, else the journey will be too great for you.” Elijah took this food for his forty days’ journey to Horeb, the mountain of God. Jesus fasted forty days in the wilderness while He was tempted by the devil. Mt 4:1 Lest temptation be too great for us, we receive the Holy Eucharist, food for our pilgrim journey to Calvary, the new and true mountain of God.
Finally, Elijah 2 Kgs 2:11 “was carried up in a whirlwind into the sky,” as Jesus Lk 24:51 “was carried up into heaven.”
Elisha
God performed a miracle through the prophet Elisha. 2 Kgs 4:42 “A man came from Baal-shalishah, bringing the man of God bread of the first fruits, twenty loaves of barley, and fresh ears of grain in his sack. And Elisha said, ‘Give to the men, that they may eat.’ But his servant said, ‘How am I to set this before a hundred men?’ So he repeated, ‘Give them to the men, that they may eat, for thus says the Lord, ‘They shall eat and have some left.’ So he set it before them. And they ate, and had some left, according to the word of the Lord.”
Elisha’s miraculous feeding of a hundred men pre-figured Jesus’ Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes.
The Psalms
Jews two thousand years ago knew the 150 psalms by heart, as we know songs today. They were not numbered; they were identified by their first words. If the first words, or any words, from a psalm were quoted, a Jew would be able to quote the rest of it.
Jesus cry on the Cross, Mt 22:46 “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me,” reminded those present that His sacrifice fulfilled prophecy. Psalm 22 begins, “My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?” The Jews present on Calvary would have recited from memory the prophetic words, Ps 22:17 “I can count all my bones – they stare and gloat over me; they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots.”
The Jews present would have recognized Jesus’ final words on the Cross as a Psalm quotation, Ps 31:5, “Into Thy hand I commit my spirit,” and recited from memory King David’s next words, “Thou hast redeemed me, O Lord, faithful God.” They would have continued reciting the psalm until its final words, “Be strong, and let your heart take courage, all you who wait for the Lord!”
Psalm 23 contains the Eucharistic prophecy, Ps 23:5 “Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of my enemies.” As we eat what God gives us, we will fear no evil but dwell in the house of the Lord forever.
Psalm 78 refers to the manna. Ps 78:24 “[God] rained down upon them manna to eat, and gave them the grain of heaven.”
Ezekiel
God pre-figured the Holy Eucharist through the prophet Ezekiel. Ez 3:3 “’Son of man, eat this scroll that I give you and fill your stomach with it.’ Then I ate it; and it was in my mouth as sweet as honey.” Jesus often used the title, Son of Man, in Matthew 8:20, 12:32, 13:41, 16:27 and 17:9. God had called Ezekiel to eat a figure of the Word of God made flesh.
The New Testament
The Gospels
The New Testament accounts describe the Holy Eucharist as Jesus gave it to us. The term “bread from heaven” becomes fully clear only when we reach the Revelation to John. The Gospels Christ said at Capernaum. Jn 6:51 “I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is My Flesh.”
Jewish life is rich in symbolism. The Seder table is filled with symbolic foods. Jesus said, Mt 26:23 “He who has dipped his hand in the dish with Me, will betray Me.” He referred to the urhatz, the first washing; slaves eat quickly without stopping to wash their hands, but now Jews wash their hands in a bowl of warm water as a symbol of their freedom. The moror, bitter herbs which remind Jews that the Egyptians made their ancestors’ lives bitter with hard labor, are dipped in charoset, a sweet mixture of chopped apples, nuts, and wine, to recall that even hard lives have their sweet moments. The matzo is the bread of haste that the Hebrews ate as they fled from Egypt. The karpas, green vegetables, represent the coming of Spring with its renewal of life, symbolizing the journey from slavery to the promised land; Jews dip them in salt water before eating to recall the tears shed along the way. If Jesus had said the Holy Eucharist was a symbol the Jews at Capernaum would instantly have accepted it.
The Jews knew that He was speaking literally. Jn 6:52 “How can this man give us his Flesh to eat?” On other occasions when our Lord spoke of Himself as a Jn 10:9 “door” or a Jn 15:1 “vine,” nobody said, “How can this man be made of wood?” or “How can this man be a plant?” They recognized these as metaphors. But when Jesus insisted, Jn 6:53 “Unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of man and drink His Blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood has eternal life.” The Jews who heard this said, Jn 6:60 “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” They remembered God’s command to Noah and all mankind, Gn 9:4 “Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.” God spoke more forcefully to His chosen people. Lv 17:10 “I will set my face against that person who eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people.” It was only after Christ’s redemptive sacrifice and the Holy Spirit’s enlightenment that the Apostles saw the full meaning of our Father’s next words. Lv 17:11 “For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life.” In the Old Covenant our Father in heaven had commanded His children not to eat the blood of animals because we are not to participate in the life of animals. Animals, having no immortal souls, are lower than man in the order of created nature. However, in the New and Everlasting Covenant we consume the Blood of Christ to participate in Christ’s eternal life.
Jesus knew we would need a lot of help to become accustomed to the Holy Eucharist. He performed the Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes in the dim light of the original Passover sacrifice Ex 12:6 and of His Crucifixion. Mt 27:45 He performed the four great Eucharistic actions: He took the bread, blessed it, broke it, and gave it to His apostles to feed the people: Mt 14:15 “When it was evening, the disciples came to him and said, ‘This is a lonely place, and the day is now over; send the crowds away to go into the villages and buy food for themselves.’ Jesus said, ‘They need not go away; you give them something to eat.’ They said to him, ‘We have only five loaves here and two fish.’ And he said, ‘Bring them here to me.’ Then he ordered the crowds to sit down on the grass; and taking the five loaves and the two fish he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and broke and gave the loaves to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the crowds. And they all ate and were satisfied. And they took up twelve baskets full of the broken pieces left over.”
The three Gospel narratives of the Last Supper are absolutely consistent. Matthew: 26:26 “This is My Body.” 26:27 “This is My Blood ” Mark: 14:22 “This is My Body.” 14:24 “This is My Blood ” Luke: 22:19 “This is My Body.” 22:20 “This is the New Covenant in My Blood.” Jesus’ next words instituted the Catholic priesthood: Lk 22:19 “Do this in remembrance of Me.”
Jesus assured the Apostles that the Holy Eucharist is a reflection of the heavenly banquet. Mt 26:29 “I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
After His resurrection, Jesus walked with two disciples to Emmaus. When they arrived, He celebrated the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for them; Lk 24:30 “While He was at table with them, He took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them.”
Acts of the Apostles
The apostles celebrated the Sacrament of Holy Eucharist. Acts 2:46 “Day by day, attending the Temple together and breaking bread in their homes ”
The Apostles were visibly religious Jews. They wore the kippah (prayer hat), the tallit (prayer shawl with fringes) and the tephillin (phylacteries). Long after Jesus ascended to the Father, Peter protested that he had never in his life eaten anything unkosher. Acts 10:14 When these Jewish Apostles remembered Christ’s command, Lk 22:19 “Do this in remembrance of Me,” they added it to their synagogue worship. They began with synagogue prayer and Scripture readings, and then went to their homes to celebrate the Sacrament of Christ’s Body and Blood. To this very day, the Introductory Rite and Liturgy of the Word come directly from Jewish synagogue worship. The Liturgy of the Eucharist comes directly from the Apostles’ breaking bread in their homes.
At Troas, Paul spoke all night, but he made sure to receive the Holy Eucharist. Acts 20:7 “On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight.” Acts 20:11 “And when Paul had gone up and had broken bread and eaten, he conversed with them a long while, until daybreak, and so departed.”
On the Adriatic Sea, at dawn, Paul celebrated Mass for 276 people. Acts 27:35 “...he took bread, and giving thanks to God in the presence of all he broke it and began to eat. Then they all were encouraged and ate some food themselves.”
The Epistles
Acts 20:11 “When Paul had gone up and had broken bread and eaten ” St. Paul explained clearly what “breaking bread” meant. 1 Cor 10:16 “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the Blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the Body of Christ?” St. Paul continued, 1 Cor 11:27 “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the Body and Blood of the Lord.” St. Paul in these words confirmed Catholic teaching that the “bread of the Lord” is truly Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, and that the “cup of the Lord” is the same substance: “Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup will be guilty of profaning the Body and Blood of the Lord.”
St. Paul added, 1 Cor 11:29 “For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the Body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.” If we receive the Holy Eucharist without acknowledging, at least in our hearts, that it is His true Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, we send ourselves to hell.
The Revelation to John
In the beginning God had said of marriage, Gen 2:24 “Therefore a man cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.” Jesus assured us, Jn 6:56 “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.” God prepared us first through natural marriage and then through the Holy Eucharist for the supernatural marriage to come at the end of time, Rev 20:7 “For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride [the Church] has made herself ready; it was granted her to be clothed in the righteous deeds of the saints.” The Holy Eucharist, through which Christ abides in us and we in Him, will be our wedding feast. Rev 19:9 “Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.”
As John Henry Newman said, “to be deep in history, is to cease to be Protestant.”
Good Night!
I wish you a Blessed evening!
I repeat:
Cite the non-RCC source for everything historical you claim, such as your precious 4th century Arthanasius’ belief about the heretical transubstantiation.
Where is the Bible is this recorded: “Scripture tells us that there will be offered sacrifice every day in every place, a clean oblation.”?
You say “The Mass is a re-presentation of that one sacrifice. We are re-presented at Calvary.” RCC doctrine that you claim as Truth says Mass and the centerpiece thereof (the Eucharist) are nor a representation, but the very body and blood of Christ. Are you not RCC? And where in Scripture are we told to be represented at Calvary?
When Jesus talked about eating His flesh and drinking His blood, he was using a metaphor (symbolic language). He often did that when He described our relationship with Him. For example, Jesus said,
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.” (John 10:7-9)
But we don’t make special doors that represent Jesus. And we don’t walk through them in order to be saved. And we don’t go into pastures to eat grass like sheep do.
There is another basic problem with the doctrine of transubstantiation. If consecrated bread really did turn into Jesus Christ, then this is what would happen when you took communion. You would eat the consecrated bread. Because of that, Jesus would be inside of you. But only until the bread was digested. Once the bread was gone, then Jesus would also be gone. If you only took communion at Mass on Sundays, then Jesus would be inside of you for a few hours on Sundays. The rest of the time, He would be gone.
This is not what we see in Scripture. Jesus promised to stay with us, to be with us all the time. He said,
“Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.” (Matthew 28:20)
why does the RCC claim saints (as the Bible calls Christians) need an earthly priest? And why call that man Father? Both of these fly in the face of God’s Word (cited earlier in this thread).
Oh - and why, if the RCC puts stock in the Bible did it spend so much energy for centuries trying to keep it out of the hands of ordinary people?
I do thank you for the civil tone of this discussion and your kind words. I pray the Lord reveal Truth to you and me.
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